It's common for guitar/bouzouki players to strum down-up-down-down-up-down when accompanying a jig. Should this method be used when playing jigs on the banjo as well? What picking patterns do you banjo players use, if not that?
Thanks - I've seen some banjo players that have fairly freeform ways of strumming a jig. Thinking too hard about my picking directions has been impeding my ability to learn tunes. So I guess what I'm really asking is, how important is it for a new banjo player to ingrain a down-up-down-down-up-down picking style?
I think it is pretty valuable to learn the down up down, down up down, pattern. Once you master that you can try other patterns. There was a discussion a while back on the cittern list where folks like Roger Landes and Dan Beimborn were suggesting trying down down up. as an alternate. Some folks do down up down, up down up. I imagine the ultimate goal is to have complete control, so you can do what you makes rhythmic sense for a particular tune without being locked into a pattern.
You could try to get comfortable with the pattern without playing a tune. This is what I did. Just practice it on a single string, slowly at first and then speed up as you get comfortable. Then you can do the same but move from one string to another. Once you get comfortable, you won't have to think about it, and picking won't get in the way of learning a tune. I found that until I could do the down up down, my jigs never really sounded like jigs.
Yep DUD DUD is the way I'd recommend playing, unless you're of the other mindset that has the pick go whichever way it needs to go to get to the next note. I'm a DUD DUD player, like the certainty of the picking patter and having all strong beats in jigs on a downstroke. However, that other style, which I've frequently heard on recordings and from native Irish players does seem to have a more "authentic" sound that is less rigid.
I'm too far stuck in my current patterns to change, and they work well enough in practice, but if you're a beginner, I'd try to seek out a teacher as well as videos of good players and look at their technique.
Here in Ireland the only players i`ve seen playing DDU are rythmn players.
I personally would also suggest picking the banjo DUD on any trad stringed instrument.
Playing DUD is far less work in the long run and better for building up speed.
Marko
I can't really say too much about the banjo but I found it difficult learning the jig pattern of DUD DUD for guitar jig accompaniment, until Donogh Hennessy described it as DDU DDU. What he plays is actually DUD DUD but he calls it and thinks of it as D|DU DDU D|DU etc.
THis mind shift sounds irelevant but actually made all the difference to me.
I always play |DUD DUD| for strumming rhythm and picking tunes. I used to strum |DUD UDU| and pick |DUD DUD| when I first started, but swapped later so that it'd be consistent, and I'm glad I did. |DUD UDU| sounds too rhythmically wishy-washy for my ears now. There's a backer plays here sometimes who strums |DDU DDU| for jigs. He makes it sound really good. I wouldn't be able to make it work for me now though cuz my pattern's too ingrained.
I may be alone in this, but the idea of picking patterns in trad music fills me with horror. Each tune is its own entity, and the strokes of the pick should conform to the tune, not vice versa. Take Donnybrook Fair for example, on the bouzouki. As I just played the A part, I picked as follows:
D UDD|UhU DUp|Dph DDh|UDp Dph| ...
G-- AGA|Bde dBA|BAB GAB|AGE EDE| ...
That was at a medium tempo. If I were to play it faster I might change a few strokes to make them smoother, and if I were to go through it three times I'd probably play it a little different each time. And if I were playing with someone who phrased the tune differently, I would try to adapt to their way of playing and that would change the way I picked the tune as well.
The choice of stroke should bring out the way the tune is phrased in your head. Strict patterns to my mind shackle your phrasing.
As for strumming patterns, the same goes in spades - the accompanist should accompany, which means their playing should be dictated by the lead. This means, I think, that patterns stay at home in the practice room and the ears guide the hands.
(and yes, I have a hard time listening to John Doyle's accompaniments, although his flatpicking can be quite nice)
I don't want to sound confrontational when I say this but I really really disagree with you. I agree with you that acompanists should accompany, but hammer-ons, pull-offs and emphasised notes can all be achieved as part of a pick pattern. This is meant to be rhythmic dance music. You can't achieve solid rhythm without a solid pick pattern.
Jon, as far as melody playing is concerned it is my opinion that you are absolutely correct. Especially for jigs. A rigid picking pattern is just not gonna work when playing jigs at speed, not if you are inclined to play any ornaments. Spending much time on picking patterns just doesn't seem too constructive to me. Reels are a bit different because the strong beats are divisible by two, and a DUDUDUDU pattern can be helpful. But even on reels one quickly moves away from a rigid pattern as soon as you start using triplets.
Mark, are you implying that *solid* rhythm and *solid* pick pattern are the same as *rigid*?? If so I'd have to disagree.
Of course, it helps to be able to emphasize a note whether you're picking down or up on it, regardless of whether it's part of a pattern or stream-of-consciousness.
It's each to his own I guess. I don't think you have to move away from a pick pattern when you use triplets in reels. It just takes work on technique to be able to pick them and keep the rhythm & pick pattern consistent. I'm not talking about rigid. Of course it's okay to stray away from it sometimes. But the benefits of a consistent pick pattern far outweigh the drawbacks. You'll find that all professional players of the music have some sort of consistent pick pattern. Most rhythm players have |DUD DUD| for jigs. Watch them closely and see for yourself. Well, keep on doing what you're doing if you like, but if a pick pattern's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
hmm.. I think that complex or difficult rhythems such as triplets or long rolls, or whatever, are most useful to the lead player in contolling the tempo. The leader/start-up guy can demonstrate technical ability with these techniques and thus maintain some grasp of the movement of the whole group. Through his virtuosity all the others can "hang-out, and jam-out, so to speak. I agree with Dow that dance music as a style depends in large measure on a prescribrd rhythmic set-up. Such as" the guotarist goes boom chicka boom and the bassist (sorry-thinking oldtimey here) goes bu bu budu bu, and the banjo provides a dependable shikka shikka..
my point is not the shikkas and the buddus but the whole motion..
of course a looser structure is more fun for the players and also is the window for marvelous breakthrough music, and we all have those moments.. but we cant DEPEND on them.. we can leavs our poor dancers bewildered.. and as been said a million times --the start up point of Traditional Dance music, from any country,, is athat it is dance capital d dance music
Hi Veronica (and Peter)! Yes, why not start a new thread to tell all the tales from your trip. How was Portland? Any other sessions west of Helena on your way home?
Dow, I don't think your disagreement is confrontational, in fact it seemed quite congenial. I will return the favor by disagreeing with your last sentence, "You can't achieve solid rhythm without a solid pick pattern." I find I can. In fact, I find that patterns emphasize the rhythm of the pattern over the pattern of the tune, when I try to use them. So I don't use them. If you like them, I don't mind.
What I do mind is when I'm listening to someone and there's a "mechanical" quality to their playing, which I often find is a result of reliance on picking patterns. If you can use them and avoid that, more power to you.
Banjo picking for a jig
Banjo picking for a jig
Hi everyone,
It's common for guitar/bouzouki players to strum down-up-down-down-up-down when accompanying a jig. Should this method be used when playing jigs on the banjo as well? What picking patterns do you banjo players use, if not that?
Diana
# Posted on August 2nd 2004 by LadyDi
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Down-up-down / Down-up-down's what I use on the banjo. I've never been able to convince my hands to strum a guitar that way, though.
# Posted on August 2nd 2004 by grego
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Thanks - I've seen some banjo players that have fairly freeform ways of strumming a jig. Thinking too hard about my picking directions has been impeding my ability to learn tunes. So I guess what I'm really asking is, how important is it for a new banjo player to ingrain a down-up-down-down-up-down picking style?
Diana
# Posted on August 2nd 2004 by LadyDi
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
What would possess one to *strum* a banjo at an ITM session??
# Posted on August 2nd 2004 by Tusong200
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Sorry, sorry! I said strum but I meant pick.
I'm only two days old at the banjo, so forgive me
Diana
# Posted on August 2nd 2004 by LadyDi
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
I think it is pretty valuable to learn the down up down, down up down, pattern. Once you master that you can try other patterns. There was a discussion a while back on the cittern list where folks like Roger Landes and Dan Beimborn were suggesting trying down down up. as an alternate. Some folks do down up down, up down up. I imagine the ultimate goal is to have complete control, so you can do what you makes rhythmic sense for a particular tune without being locked into a pattern.
You could try to get comfortable with the pattern without playing a tune. This is what I did. Just practice it on a single string, slowly at first and then speed up as you get comfortable. Then you can do the same but move from one string to another. Once you get comfortable, you won't have to think about it, and picking won't get in the way of learning a tune. I found that until I could do the down up down, my jigs never really sounded like jigs.
# Posted on August 2nd 2004 by John Conoboy
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Yep DUD DUD is the way I'd recommend playing, unless you're of the other mindset that has the pick go whichever way it needs to go to get to the next note. I'm a DUD DUD player, like the certainty of the picking patter and having all strong beats in jigs on a downstroke. However, that other style, which I've frequently heard on recordings and from native Irish players does seem to have a more "authentic" sound that is less rigid.
I'm too far stuck in my current patterns to change, and they work well enough in practice, but if you're a beginner, I'd try to seek out a teacher as well as videos of good players and look at their technique.
Cheers,
Michael
# Posted on August 3rd 2004 by Michael Eskin
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Here in Ireland the only players i`ve seen playing DDU are rythmn players.
I personally would also suggest picking the banjo DUD on any trad stringed instrument.
Playing DUD is far less work in the long run and better for building up speed.
Marko
# Posted on August 3rd 2004 by marko
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
I can't really say too much about the banjo but I found it difficult learning the jig pattern of DUD DUD for guitar jig accompaniment, until Donogh Hennessy described it as DDU DDU. What he plays is actually DUD DUD but he calls it and thinks of it as D|DU DDU D|DU etc.
THis mind shift sounds irelevant but actually made all the difference to me.
# Posted on August 3rd 2004 by Donough
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
I always play |DUD DUD| for strumming rhythm and picking tunes. I used to strum |DUD UDU| and pick |DUD DUD| when I first started, but swapped later so that it'd be consistent, and I'm glad I did. |DUD UDU| sounds too rhythmically wishy-washy for my ears now. There's a backer plays here sometimes who strums |DDU DDU| for jigs. He makes it sound really good. I wouldn't be able to make it work for me now though cuz my pattern's too ingrained.
# Posted on August 3rd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
i think the down stroke is the most inportant stroke.........
# Posted on August 3rd 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
I may be alone in this, but the idea of picking patterns in trad music fills me with horror. Each tune is its own entity, and the strokes of the pick should conform to the tune, not vice versa. Take Donnybrook Fair for example, on the bouzouki. As I just played the A part, I picked as follows:
D UDD|UhU DUp|Dph DDh|UDp Dph| ...
G-- AGA|Bde dBA|BAB GAB|AGE EDE| ...
That was at a medium tempo. If I were to play it faster I might change a few strokes to make them smoother, and if I were to go through it three times I'd probably play it a little different each time. And if I were playing with someone who phrased the tune differently, I would try to adapt to their way of playing and that would change the way I picked the tune as well.
The choice of stroke should bring out the way the tune is phrased in your head. Strict patterns to my mind shackle your phrasing.
As for strumming patterns, the same goes in spades - the accompanist should accompany, which means their playing should be dictated by the lead. This means, I think, that patterns stay at home in the practice room and the ears guide the hands.
(and yes, I have a hard time listening to John Doyle's accompaniments, although his flatpicking can be quite nice)
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
I don't want to sound confrontational when I say this but I really really disagree with you. I agree with you that acompanists should accompany, but hammer-ons, pull-offs and emphasised notes can all be achieved as part of a pick pattern. This is meant to be rhythmic dance music. You can't achieve solid rhythm without a solid pick pattern.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Jon, as far as melody playing is concerned it is my opinion that you are absolutely correct. Especially for jigs. A rigid picking pattern is just not gonna work when playing jigs at speed, not if you are inclined to play any ornaments. Spending much time on picking patterns just doesn't seem too constructive to me. Reels are a bit different because the strong beats are divisible by two, and a DUDUDUDU pattern can be helpful. But even on reels one quickly moves away from a rigid pattern as soon as you start using triplets.
Mark, are you implying that *solid* rhythm and *solid* pick pattern are the same as *rigid*?? If so I'd have to disagree.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Tusong200
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Of course, it helps to be able to emphasize a note whether you're picking down or up on it, regardless of whether it's part of a pattern or stream-of-consciousness.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
It's each to his own I guess. I don't think you have to move away from a pick pattern when you use triplets in reels. It just takes work on technique to be able to pick them and keep the rhythm & pick pattern consistent. I'm not talking about rigid. Of course it's okay to stray away from it sometimes. But the benefits of a consistent pick pattern far outweigh the drawbacks. You'll find that all professional players of the music have some sort of consistent pick pattern. Most rhythm players have |DUD DUD| for jigs. Watch them closely and see for yourself. Well, keep on doing what you're doing if you like, but if a pick pattern's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
hmm.. I think that complex or difficult rhythems such as triplets or long rolls, or whatever, are most useful to the lead player in contolling the tempo. The leader/start-up guy can demonstrate technical ability with these techniques and thus maintain some grasp of the movement of the whole group. Through his virtuosity all the others can "hang-out, and jam-out, so to speak. I agree with Dow that dance music as a style depends in large measure on a prescribrd rhythmic set-up. Such as" the guotarist goes boom chicka boom and the bassist (sorry-thinking oldtimey here) goes bu bu budu bu, and the banjo provides a dependable shikka shikka..
my point is not the shikkas and the buddus but the whole motion..
of course a looser structure is more fun for the players and also is the window for marvelous breakthrough music, and we all have those moments.. but we cant DEPEND on them.. we can leavs our poor dancers bewildered.. and as been said a million times --the start up point of Traditional Dance music, from any country,, is athat it is dance capital d dance music
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
oh yah..wanna hear aboot my trip>
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Hi Veronica (and Peter)! Yes, why not start a new thread to tell all the tales from your trip. How was Portland? Any other sessions west of Helena on your way home?
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Dow, I don't think your disagreement is confrontational, in fact it seemed quite congenial. I will return the favor by disagreeing with your last sentence, "You can't achieve solid rhythm without a solid pick pattern." I find I can. In fact, I find that patterns emphasize the rhythm of the pattern over the pattern of the tune, when I try to use them. So I don't use them. If you like them, I don't mind.
What I do mind is when I'm listening to someone and there's a "mechanical" quality to their playing, which I often find is a result of reliance on picking patterns. If you can use them and avoid that, more power to you.
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Okay, maybe. This is when cyber-discussion falls down, cuz I can't hear your playing!
# Posted on August 6th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
If I ever dig myself out of the mountain of work on my desk, I'll make you a tape. Look for it in, oh, 2010.
# Posted on August 7th 2004 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Banjo picking for a jig
Tut tut, you shoulda done something for Mighty Craic!
# Posted on August 7th 2004 by Dr. Dow