The best way I can describe this is it's like a horse refusing a fence.
You pick the first note of a triplet ornament, the following pair of notes is loaded and set to go in your mind, but your fingers stall and ....... nothing happens.
Is it a psychological thing, too much hand tension, poor angle of the pick, a degenerative disease symptom?? Whatever it is, it's really annoying. It doesn't happen on the mandolin.
It could be all of the above, but the most likely reason is anxiety and tension in your muscles. The best players seem to do triplets unconsiously and in a very relaxed manner. Technique probably has an effect on why this happens with you especially if you are a beginner. I have the same problem and only have good triplets when I don't think about it.
I noticed that the very best players are extremely economical when they do triplets and often it is hard to see exactly what they are doing. Also there are probably several ways to do a triplet as far as pick angle, use of fingers v. forearm, and how tight you hold your pick. Most of the better players are very relaxed with the triplet and while hand position is important, they seem to be able to produce fast triplets in any hand position (by this I mean hand on the far side of the bridge v. near side, on the head v. off the head, fingers curled v. semi curled v. uncurled, ect.)
1. Make sure you're not drunk.
2. Get plenty of good food and sleep, unless you're 18 years old.
3. Use a flimsy pick.
4. Relax.
5. Practice.
6. Banjo is loud and proud. If you're not emotionally ready for it, stay on the mandolin.
7. Even the best horses sometimes refuse to jump. Clear all the loud colors and small animals out of the bar first.
C'mon Greg, it's just practice. Another 7,393,126,544,009 triplets, and they'll be firing like clockwork.
The same thing is frustrating me to no end cuz I know what decent triplets feel like on fiddle. I'm aiming for that same relaxed feel with the pick, but whenever it happens, the next triplet trips all over itself (hence the name?). And this comes after years of guitar and mandolin, so my hand's used to being relaxed. It's just the triplet motion that brings on the tension. And it doesn't take much--just one synapse tighter than it should be and I might as well be swinging a crowbar at the strings....
My routine at this point is to play a few triplets as light and easy as possible. As soon as they start to tense up, I stop and switch to a simple tune, with no triplets, just to drain the sensation of tension. Then I go back to the triplets again. I figure another 60 years of this and I'll be good and dead.....
Relaxation is absolutely the key. Banjo requires the lightest touch of any of the stringed instruments I've played. Where a guitar or a mandolin wants you to really dig in, a banjo will balk at too much pressure. Hold the pick as if it were a soap bubble and stay right back at the tip - let the skin do the work, it'll be loud enough. Also, the sweet spot along the length of the string seems to be a lot smaller and a lot more important than it is for other plectrum instruments. Try your triplets up and down the string, and you'll find there's a point where they fly. Pick there.
I'll second the above. On the mandolin you dig deep at the strings and it sounds better - on the banjo you try to only just touch for the triplet, and you end up pulling back too soon and simply missing the string. A little bit of practice, carefully going over the manky triplets as slowly as you need to, will usually help.
Of course it could be the first symptoms of some horrible degenerative disease which leaves you in a sort of vegetative state, unable to play a musical instrument. Then you'll have to take up the bodhran.
Yes - there is a point in yer development where you can feel pleased with the ability to keep the tune going even if you've had a skiplet, instead of going to pieces.
This conjures a wonderful picture of the banjo player holding his pick out in front of the fire, and all the other players gradually quieting down, knowing that something pretty damn' splendid is coming up.
Haymarket is the station before the ultimate destination, if that happens to be Waverley. Of course if you're going to Aberdeen, it's the first station after Waverley, in which case getting off at Haymarket is not so much last-minute interruptus as a total disappointment. Clear?
Inspired by this thread, I tried using a JD .80mm pick on my banjo last night.I tried, but I'm so used to my heavy "Gibson triangle" thick 1mm plectrum that I use for mandolin, that I just couldn't feel right with it. It seemed awfully flimsy. I think the thick pick is the only way I can get any decent tone out of my crap Korean banjo. It's been going OK ever since I took the advice in the Sully book I read in the music shop, which was to buy a set of jazz tenor banjo strings, move them up one (so that you have a wound "A"), discarding the highest string, and buy a single guitar string, something like an electric A, for the low G. It doesn't sound too bad with that set-up - I know cos I've heard others playing it.
I'm still crap at triplets though. Are they compulsory?
Sometimes you just can't get the ornamentation right if you can't hear your instrument.
I recently got a Gold Tone short scale from Andy Perkins ( http://www.andybanjo.com ). A great wee instrument and I doubt if you'll get better quality for the price.
But so designed to project that in a loud session it can be difficult for me as the player to hear myself (though everybody else is hearing me loud and clear). And I find that unless I can hear myself start the ornamentation, I find it very difficult to execute.
I've lately been "trading down" pick sizes. I used to play octave mandolin as my main istrument and favoured a Clayton)0.94mm or 0.80mm or a D'Andrea ProPlec 1.5mm (a monster of a plec; stick a handle on this jobby and you could burrow under the Thames!). These gave me trouble on the banjo and now I tend to use the Dunlop "light grey" 0.60mm or even (gasp) the Dunlop "white" 0.46mm (although the white can be so floppy that it's very hard to control).
To my ear, banjo without triplets is almost like tin whistle without cuts and strikes and the other nice ornaments. It can blend in fine, hopefully offends no-one, but gets a bit boring to play after a while.
Having said that, I'm a newbie (as is clear from the topic I started.) For most reels and hornpipes, I'll try to add triplets sparingly in the "obvious" places, and always same-note triplets. I struggle with where to put 'em in jigs, and play the jigs naked of triplets unless I've learned a particular ornament from someone's recording.
I know it's possible to over-ornament, so I try not to overdo it. I don't know if I succeed.
Don't you ever throw in a few dugady dugs Bri?
I wish i could throw them in at will but sometimes I end up with duga duga duga dugady agud agud, if you see what I mean.
Used sparingly they add a lot of zip to a tune but can be a bit over done IMHO sometimes. With practise, my triplets are definitely better than they once were but are still not 100% reliable which is molto frustrating.
But I am also keen to work on the swing in my playing which can get lost sometimes in the duga duga duga.
i also find that sometimes leaving a crotchet in can create a nice space in the music (gasp!), rather like when a flute player takes a breath which can give a nice articulation to a tune IMHO
Clarification, better late than never I suppose.
By "right back at the tip" I'm talking about how the pick hits the string. On the banjo, I find that I'm getting just the barest corner of the pick onto the string, as opposed to the guitar or the mandolin or the bouzouki, where I'll use a bit more of the pick. Say on the banjo, only 1/16" of the pick intersects the string, where on the guitar et al I might use as much as 1/4", or back off to 1/8". I hope that's more clear.
The reason for this is simply that the banjo is much more sensitive to the pick than a wood top instrument, which means it wants a lot less force, allowing much more subtle playing at a substantial volume than particularly a double-strung woodtop instrument. The trouble is that when you're playing that loud, the temptation to bear down is overpowering, and that tends to push banjo players to strong down beats and slightly less strong upbeats and nothing much else. (I believe that was characterized as "dugada dugada dugada dugada" somewhere above)
Hence, the admonition to relax at all costs. To play the banjo, you must relax as if your life depended on it.
I see what your going for Grego (wow I'm really late responding to this thread).
I am a 2 year old banjo player wannabee, and much like the others in this thread, triplets are the bane of my existance. I have noticed though that the INSTANT I tense up, the triplets "take a vacation" and don't happen.
I'm thinking the relaxing part is important - and I'm going to try the "choking up on the pick" thing as well.
I have the same trouble, Grego, on guitar as well as banjo. It’s worse for me on banjo and I think it’s because there’s a bit more deflection in the banjo string, so the same stroke that just barely pops the string on the guitar might be not quite enough on the banjo. For me, it seems to be very dependent, as Jon said, on the depth of the pick attack. It’s also related to relaxation, because I tend to dig too deep when I’m tense.
I think I’ve mentioned this here before, but I’ll say it again. And probably yet again after I’ve had time to forget. What was I saying? Oh, yes… When I’m having plectral difficulties and can’t seem to control the pick depth very well, I get out my Stylus Pick and do some exercises with it for 10-15 minutes. When I go back to the real pick, I have considerably better control, as well as speed. I’ve never tried the Stylus on banjo (don’t play it that much), but it helps me a lot on guitar. You have to try one out for a while to understand what it can do for you. If I had the discipline to use it regularly, I’d probably advance my playing from third-rate amateur to second-rate.
I've been looking around the web for some good drills to do for triplets - I've found a few, but developed a few of my own. Of course being a n00bie banjo player, I'm always unsure if I'm "doing it right" as far as drills go.
Anyone have any good drills that they use regularly or have found to improve those pesky triplets?
BTW - Since my last posting, I have choked up on the pick as suggested, and concentrated a lot on relaxing - I have noticed some improvement already... still a long way to go though of course =)
Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
The best way I can describe this is it's like a horse refusing a fence.
You pick the first note of a triplet ornament, the following pair of notes is loaded and set to go in your mind, but your fingers stall and ....... nothing happens.
Is it a psychological thing, too much hand tension, poor angle of the pick, a degenerative disease symptom?? Whatever it is, it's really annoying. It doesn't happen on the mandolin.
Ideas, please?
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by grego
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Grego,
It could be all of the above, but the most likely reason is anxiety and tension in your muscles. The best players seem to do triplets unconsiously and in a very relaxed manner. Technique probably has an effect on why this happens with you especially if you are a beginner. I have the same problem and only have good triplets when I don't think about it.
I noticed that the very best players are extremely economical when they do triplets and often it is hard to see exactly what they are doing. Also there are probably several ways to do a triplet as far as pick angle, use of fingers v. forearm, and how tight you hold your pick. Most of the better players are very relaxed with the triplet and while hand position is important, they seem to be able to produce fast triplets in any hand position (by this I mean hand on the far side of the bridge v. near side, on the head v. off the head, fingers curled v. semi curled v. uncurled, ect.)
Mike Keyes
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by mikeyes
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
1. Make sure you're not drunk.
2. Get plenty of good food and sleep, unless you're 18 years old.
3. Use a flimsy pick.
4. Relax.
5. Practice.
6. Banjo is loud and proud. If you're not emotionally ready for it, stay on the mandolin.
7. Even the best horses sometimes refuse to jump. Clear all the loud colors and small animals out of the bar first.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Yep, I call them "misfires". Relaxation is the key I find to playing them fluidly.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by Michael Eskin
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
C'mon Greg, it's just practice. Another 7,393,126,544,009 triplets, and they'll be firing like clockwork.
The same thing is frustrating me to no end cuz I know what decent triplets feel like on fiddle. I'm aiming for that same relaxed feel with the pick, but whenever it happens, the next triplet trips all over itself (hence the name?). And this comes after years of guitar and mandolin, so my hand's used to being relaxed. It's just the triplet motion that brings on the tension. And it doesn't take much--just one synapse tighter than it should be and I might as well be swinging a crowbar at the strings....
My routine at this point is to play a few triplets as light and easy as possible. As soon as they start to tense up, I stop and switch to a simple tune, with no triplets, just to drain the sensation of tension. Then I go back to the triplets again. I figure another 60 years of this and I'll be good and dead.....
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Relaxation is absolutely the key. Banjo requires the lightest touch of any of the stringed instruments I've played. Where a guitar or a mandolin wants you to really dig in, a banjo will balk at too much pressure. Hold the pick as if it were a soap bubble and stay right back at the tip - let the skin do the work, it'll be loud enough. Also, the sweet spot along the length of the string seems to be a lot smaller and a lot more important than it is for other plectrum instruments. Try your triplets up and down the string, and you'll find there's a point where they fly. Pick there.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
I'll second the above. On the mandolin you dig deep at the strings and it sounds better - on the banjo you try to only just touch for the triplet, and you end up pulling back too soon and simply missing the string. A little bit of practice, carefully going over the manky triplets as slowly as you need to, will usually help.
Of course it could be the first symptoms of some horrible degenerative disease which leaves you in a sort of vegetative state, unable to play a musical instrument. Then you'll have to take up the bodhran.
Dave ;o)
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
In Edinburgh, "Coitus Interruptus" is commonly referred to as "Getting off at Haymarket".
Just thought I'd share that with you.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
I like "Skiplets" that's where you go ... here it comes, here it comes, am I gonna make it, oh no, aaahh, bugger it- too hard, single note will do.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by Bren
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Yes - there is a point in yer development where you can feel pleased with the ability to keep the tune going even if you've had a skiplet, instead of going to pieces.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
This conjures a wonderful picture of the banjo player holding his pick out in front of the fire, and all the other players gradually quieting down, knowing that something pretty damn' splendid is coming up.
# Posted on July 28th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
"skiplet" .. such a warm, almost comforting word. Naming the disease is half the battle, and now I'm well on the road to recovery.
# Posted on July 28th 2004 by grego
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Ok, some clarification requested:
Jon: "stay right back at the tip" - do you mean grasp the pick so very little of it is showing, or most of it?
Steviguitar: How do you define "flimsy." I've been trying a 50mm Dunlop and it feels really awkward. I normally use something that's about 70mm.
John J: "Haymarket" Now just where is that (geographically or proceduraly - your choice?)
# Posted on July 28th 2004 by grego
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Haymarket is the station before the ultimate destination, if that happens to be Waverley. Of course if you're going to Aberdeen, it's the first station after Waverley, in which case getting off at Haymarket is not so much last-minute interruptus as a total disappointment. Clear?
Inspired by this thread, I tried using a JD .80mm pick on my banjo last night.I tried, but I'm so used to my heavy "Gibson triangle" thick 1mm plectrum that I use for mandolin, that I just couldn't feel right with it. It seemed awfully flimsy. I think the thick pick is the only way I can get any decent tone out of my crap Korean banjo. It's been going OK ever since I took the advice in the Sully book I read in the music shop, which was to buy a set of jazz tenor banjo strings, move them up one (so that you have a wound "A"), discarding the highest string, and buy a single guitar string, something like an electric A, for the low G. It doesn't sound too bad with that set-up - I know cos I've heard others playing it.
I'm still crap at triplets though. Are they compulsory?
# Posted on July 28th 2004 by Bren
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Another observation here ...
Sometimes you just can't get the ornamentation right if you can't hear your instrument.
I recently got a Gold Tone short scale from Andy Perkins ( http://www.andybanjo.com ). A great wee instrument and I doubt if you'll get better quality for the price.
But so designed to project that in a loud session it can be difficult for me as the player to hear myself (though everybody else is hearing me loud and clear). And I find that unless I can hear myself start the ornamentation, I find it very difficult to execute.
I've lately been "trading down" pick sizes. I used to play octave mandolin as my main istrument and favoured a Clayton)0.94mm or 0.80mm or a D'Andrea ProPlec 1.5mm (a monster of a plec; stick a handle on this jobby and you could burrow under the Thames!). These gave me trouble on the banjo and now I tend to use the Dunlop "light grey" 0.60mm or even (gasp) the Dunlop "white" 0.46mm (although the white can be so floppy that it's very hard to control).
# Posted on July 28th 2004 by Aidan Crossey
Compulsory?
To my ear, banjo without triplets is almost like tin whistle without cuts and strikes and the other nice ornaments. It can blend in fine, hopefully offends no-one, but gets a bit boring to play after a while.
Having said that, I'm a newbie (as is clear from the topic I started.) For most reels and hornpipes, I'll try to add triplets sparingly in the "obvious" places, and always same-note triplets. I struggle with where to put 'em in jigs, and play the jigs naked of triplets unless I've learned a particular ornament from someone's recording.
I know it's possible to over-ornament, so I try not to overdo it. I don't know if I succeed.
# Posted on July 29th 2004 by grego
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Don't you ever throw in a few dugady dugs Bri?
I wish i could throw them in at will but sometimes I end up with duga duga duga dugady agud agud, if you see what I mean.
# Posted on July 29th 2004 by Bren
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Used sparingly they add a lot of zip to a tune but can be a bit over done IMHO sometimes. With practise, my triplets are definitely better than they once were but are still not 100% reliable which is molto frustrating.
But I am also keen to work on the swing in my playing which can get lost sometimes in the duga duga duga.
i also find that sometimes leaving a crotchet in can create a nice space in the music (gasp!), rather like when a flute player takes a breath which can give a nice articulation to a tune IMHO
# Posted on July 29th 2004 by nick b
"right back at the tip"
Clarification, better late than never I suppose.
By "right back at the tip" I'm talking about how the pick hits the string. On the banjo, I find that I'm getting just the barest corner of the pick onto the string, as opposed to the guitar or the mandolin or the bouzouki, where I'll use a bit more of the pick. Say on the banjo, only 1/16" of the pick intersects the string, where on the guitar et al I might use as much as 1/4", or back off to 1/8". I hope that's more clear.
The reason for this is simply that the banjo is much more sensitive to the pick than a wood top instrument, which means it wants a lot less force, allowing much more subtle playing at a substantial volume than particularly a double-strung woodtop instrument. The trouble is that when you're playing that loud, the temptation to bear down is overpowering, and that tends to push banjo players to strong down beats and slightly less strong upbeats and nothing much else. (I believe that was characterized as "dugada dugada dugada dugada" somewhere above)
Hence, the admonition to relax at all costs. To play the banjo, you must relax as if your life depended on it.
# Posted on August 4th 2004 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
So, Guitar: Banjo:
-------- --------
\ / \ /
__________ \ /
\ / \ /
\ / _________
\/ \/
???
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by grego
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Darn, the picture didn't come out like it looked in the reply box. Let's try again:
So, Guitar:......... Banjo:
....--------........--------
....\....../........\....../
...__________........\..../
.....\..../...........\../
......\../.........._________
.......\/..............\/
(dots are spaces)
???
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by grego
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
I give up.
# Posted on August 5th 2004 by grego
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
I see what your going for Grego (wow I'm really late responding to this thread).
I am a 2 year old banjo player wannabee, and much like the others in this thread, triplets are the bane of my existance. I have noticed though that the INSTANT I tense up, the triplets "take a vacation" and don't happen.
I'm thinking the relaxing part is important - and I'm going to try the "choking up on the pick" thing as well.
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Fishbait
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
”I wish i could throw them in at will …”
Run, Will, run!
I have the same trouble, Grego, on guitar as well as banjo. It’s worse for me on banjo and I think it’s because there’s a bit more deflection in the banjo string, so the same stroke that just barely pops the string on the guitar might be not quite enough on the banjo. For me, it seems to be very dependent, as Jon said, on the depth of the pick attack. It’s also related to relaxation, because I tend to dig too deep when I’m tense.
I think I’ve mentioned this here before, but I’ll say it again. And probably yet again after I’ve had time to forget. What was I saying? Oh, yes… When I’m having plectral difficulties and can’t seem to control the pick depth very well, I get out my Stylus Pick and do some exercises with it for 10-15 minutes. When I go back to the real pick, I have considerably better control, as well as speed. I’ve never tried the Stylus on banjo (don’t play it that much), but it helps me a lot on guitar. You have to try one out for a while to understand what it can do for you. If I had the discipline to use it regularly, I’d probably advance my playing from third-rate amateur to second-rate.
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Bob himself
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
The title of this thread reminds me of Zina's last visit to our session.
# Posted on July 24th 2005 by Phantom Button
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
Yes, but he doesn't like the Kane Sisters, so now all bets are off. *smirk*
# Posted on July 25th 2005 by Zina Lee
Re: Triplets Interruptus (a banjo question)
I've been looking around the web for some good drills to do for triplets - I've found a few, but developed a few of my own. Of course being a n00bie banjo player, I'm always unsure if I'm "doing it right" as far as drills go.
Anyone have any good drills that they use regularly or have found to improve those pesky triplets?
BTW - Since my last posting, I have choked up on the pick as suggested, and concentrated a lot on relaxing - I have noticed some improvement already... still a long way to go though of course =)
# Posted on August 2nd 2005 by Fishbait