Hi everyone,
I'm about to pick up the tenor banjo for the first time, and would like to hear some people's opinions on cello fingering versus fiddle fingering.
Would using cello fingering complicate things if I later decided to try the fiddle? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages for the different fingering methods?
We are getting into the realm of religion in this discussion (mostly because people confuse the major players who use one or the other technique with reality) but I will give you my take.
If you already play the fiddle, fiddle style will be easier to adapt on the banjo especially if you have a short scale (17 fret or less) banjo. The drawback to the fiddle style is that it is a little harder to reach all the notes. The advantages are two: you already have the fingering embedded in your brain so they tend to be automatic and playing fiddle style lets your banjo sound somewhat like a fiddle because you are able to use the fiddle fingering tricks, assuming you can reach them that is. (see below)
Cello style, on the other hand, is easier to do once your brain learns it and it's a little quicker. It also introduces the possiblilty of other techniques and the ability to play a longer scale (19 fret) banjo without a lot of very quick fingering. The hard part is making the switch back and forth from the fiddle to the banjo in the beginning.
I chose the cello style after playing fiddle style for a year or so because I was going to take a class from a famous cello style user. It turned out that while he advocated the cello style, he was not so fanatic about it that he insisted on using only that style. He just made the logical decision that in his case it was superior. I still play cello style and consider it easier to use once I became automatic with it.
You will hear arguments for both sides of this discussion, some of them even make sense, but the choice is up to you. I find that cello style is easier to use on a longer scale instrument and that it improves my mandolin playing because I have a very strong pinky finger now and a better idea of how the fretboard should be used. I got over the cognitive dissonance that the cello v. fiddle first brought on and see the tenor banjo as a separate instrument from the fiddle with its own unique possibilities rather than a clone of the fiddle. I think that using cello style makes me a better musician.
For many years I played and taught cello fingering, but have recently, now that I'm playing much more mandolin in sessions, switched to fiddle fingering. I'm not able to switch between them like some people, and found it better to use fiddle fingering on the tenor banjo than try to use cello fingering on the mandolin.
I think I prefer the fiddle fingering, but with the caveat that my instrument has a short scale (21" Sully) and I have small hands. I can see how it would be difficult to use fiddle fingerings on a longer scale instrument unless you had longer fingers. I'm able to play a 22" instrument with fiddle fingering as well, but it does require some wrist pivot to get to the upper frets.
WARNING: The following is indefensible advice coming from a neophyte tenor banjo player.
I use both fingerings, depending on the range of the tune I'm playing. Having played fiddle for 25 years, it's great to have most of my fiddle repertoire under my fingers in less than half a year on banjo. And I play a short-scale 17-fret banjo, so fiddle fingering works for most tunes.
But some tunes are just easier with cello fingering, so I switch to that whenever it makes sense to me. Maybe years of playing guitar have helped--on guitar you tend to use whatever fingering works, and there are always several options to choose from. On guitar, your fingers aren't handcuffed only to certain frets--they go where they are needed. The 'best' fingering depends a lot on the notes before and after the given phrase. For me, it's more about economy of motion than rigid adherance to any one strategy.
And in the long run, *any* fingering you do on banjo will help if and when you decide to pick up fiddle.
According to your profile, you were learning bouzouki. What fingering did you use on zouk? I learned bouzouki from Roger Landes and I learned to use my pinky at the 5th fret. I found this easier with the long scale instrument. If I played without a capo, I would shift up the neck and not reach for the higher notes. When I got a banjo, I just tended to do the same, but with a short scale, 17 fret tenor, if I know I have to reach up to the 7th fret, I will switch technique and use fiddle fingering so I can reach up with my pinky to get the high note. I never shift up the neck with the banjo.
I am a fiddle player and sometimes banjo player. I generally use fiddle fingering but change to cello fingering when the stretch becomes uncomfortable or hinders fluidity. This is on a standard 19 fret banjo; easier on a 17 fret.
The point is that this music isn't based on rules but whatever works for you to make the music sound as it should.
Thanks, everyone, for your help. I guess I'm just trying to think ahead to if (or when) I might play the fiddle, and I'd like to look back and not say, "Man, I wish I had used fiddle fingering because my life would be a lot easier right now!" But I'll be learning on a 19-fret banjo, so I think the gist of what I'm hearing is that cello fingering will feel better on those wide frets.
John, I'm only a month old on bouzouki and am still backing tunes, I haven't really played around with picking yet, so I dont have that frame of reference to adapt to the banjo.
Mike, you forgot to mention that the very fine and famous banjo player that did the workshop (in St. Louis, right?? No Name Dropping Here is also a very fine and famous fiddler. So switching from cello fingering on banjo to fiddle fingering on fiddle is not a problem in and of itself.
I've observed that folks with short stubby ham hands like me or smallish hands seem to prefer the "cello" fingering and those long spider fingered folks seem to stick with the "fiddle" fingering.
I've tended toward "cello" fingering partially for that reason. Although, like Will Harmon, I tend to switch around sometimes and go with how the notes fall on a given tune.
Actually the person I was referring to was Gerry O'Connor who is no slouch on the fiddle either. John Carty seems to have gone the same route as has a number of other well known banjo players.
But that's not the reason I use cello fingering most of the time; I use it because it fits my style and I find it easier to play faster with the cello style.
BTW, there seems to be a lot of controversy about reaching the high B note and whether or not one has to switch to fiddle fingering style to do so. As far as I am concerned there are at least three ways to reach the B note: sliding the pinky from the A, going to second position by moving the whole hand up one or two frets and playing the B with the pinky or the ring finger, and making a giant leap for music by playing an F# or G with the first finger and jumping up to the B as in Maid Behind The Bar. The nomenclature is not all that important as the way the tune is going dictates how you reach the B note.
I did notice that John Carty does go to second position a lot when he plays the banjo the way fiddlers often do and I have tried to emulate that in my playing.
Banjo fingering
Banjo fingering
Hi everyone,
I'm about to pick up the tenor banjo for the first time, and would like to hear some people's opinions on cello fingering versus fiddle fingering.
Would using cello fingering complicate things if I later decided to try the fiddle? What are some of the advantages and disadvantages for the different fingering methods?
Thanks for the input,
Diana
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by LadyDi
Re: Banjo fingering
We are getting into the realm of religion in this discussion (mostly because people confuse the major players who use one or the other technique with reality) but I will give you my take.
If you already play the fiddle, fiddle style will be easier to adapt on the banjo especially if you have a short scale (17 fret or less) banjo. The drawback to the fiddle style is that it is a little harder to reach all the notes. The advantages are two: you already have the fingering embedded in your brain so they tend to be automatic and playing fiddle style lets your banjo sound somewhat like a fiddle because you are able to use the fiddle fingering tricks, assuming you can reach them that is. (see below)
Cello style, on the other hand, is easier to do once your brain learns it and it's a little quicker. It also introduces the possiblilty of other techniques and the ability to play a longer scale (19 fret) banjo without a lot of very quick fingering. The hard part is making the switch back and forth from the fiddle to the banjo in the beginning.
I chose the cello style after playing fiddle style for a year or so because I was going to take a class from a famous cello style user. It turned out that while he advocated the cello style, he was not so fanatic about it that he insisted on using only that style. He just made the logical decision that in his case it was superior. I still play cello style and consider it easier to use once I became automatic with it.
You will hear arguments for both sides of this discussion, some of them even make sense, but the choice is up to you. I find that cello style is easier to use on a longer scale instrument and that it improves my mandolin playing because I have a very strong pinky finger now and a better idea of how the fretboard should be used. I got over the cognitive dissonance that the cello v. fiddle first brought on and see the tenor banjo as a separate instrument from the fiddle with its own unique possibilities rather than a clone of the fiddle. I think that using cello style makes me a better musician.
But that is my opinion.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by mikeyes
Re: Banjo fingering
For many years I played and taught cello fingering, but have recently, now that I'm playing much more mandolin in sessions, switched to fiddle fingering. I'm not able to switch between them like some people, and found it better to use fiddle fingering on the tenor banjo than try to use cello fingering on the mandolin.
I think I prefer the fiddle fingering, but with the caveat that my instrument has a short scale (21" Sully) and I have small hands. I can see how it would be difficult to use fiddle fingerings on a longer scale instrument unless you had longer fingers. I'm able to play a 22" instrument with fiddle fingering as well, but it does require some wrist pivot to get to the upper frets.
Cheers,
Michael
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Michael Eskin
Re: Banjo fingering
WARNING: The following is indefensible advice coming from a neophyte tenor banjo player.
I use both fingerings, depending on the range of the tune I'm playing. Having played fiddle for 25 years, it's great to have most of my fiddle repertoire under my fingers in less than half a year on banjo. And I play a short-scale 17-fret banjo, so fiddle fingering works for most tunes.
But some tunes are just easier with cello fingering, so I switch to that whenever it makes sense to me. Maybe years of playing guitar have helped--on guitar you tend to use whatever fingering works, and there are always several options to choose from. On guitar, your fingers aren't handcuffed only to certain frets--they go where they are needed. The 'best' fingering depends a lot on the notes before and after the given phrase. For me, it's more about economy of motion than rigid adherance to any one strategy.
And in the long run, *any* fingering you do on banjo will help if and when you decide to pick up fiddle.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Banjo fingering
According to your profile, you were learning bouzouki. What fingering did you use on zouk? I learned bouzouki from Roger Landes and I learned to use my pinky at the 5th fret. I found this easier with the long scale instrument. If I played without a capo, I would shift up the neck and not reach for the higher notes. When I got a banjo, I just tended to do the same, but with a short scale, 17 fret tenor, if I know I have to reach up to the 7th fret, I will switch technique and use fiddle fingering so I can reach up with my pinky to get the high note. I never shift up the neck with the banjo.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by John Conoboy
Re: Banjo fingering
I am a fiddle player and sometimes banjo player. I generally use fiddle fingering but change to cello fingering when the stretch becomes uncomfortable or hinders fluidity. This is on a standard 19 fret banjo; easier on a 17 fret.
The point is that this music isn't based on rules but whatever works for you to make the music sound as it should.
John.
# Posted on July 26th 2004 by rosenun
Re: Banjo fingering
Thanks, everyone, for your help. I guess I'm just trying to think ahead to if (or when) I might play the fiddle, and I'd like to look back and not say, "Man, I wish I had used fiddle fingering because my life would be a lot easier right now!" But I'll be learning on a 19-fret banjo, so I think the gist of what I'm hearing is that cello fingering will feel better on those wide frets.
John, I'm only a month old on bouzouki and am still backing tunes, I haven't really played around with picking yet, so I dont have that frame of reference to adapt to the banjo.
More input welcome!
Diana
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by LadyDi
Re: Banjo fingering
Mike, you forgot to mention that the very fine and famous banjo player that did the workshop (in St. Louis, right?? No Name Dropping Here
is also a very fine and famous fiddler. So switching from cello fingering on banjo to fiddle fingering on fiddle is not a problem in and of itself.
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by Tusong200
Re: Banjo fingering
Ladydi
I've observed that folks with short stubby ham hands like me or smallish hands seem to prefer the "cello" fingering and those long spider fingered folks seem to stick with the "fiddle" fingering.
I've tended toward "cello" fingering partially for that reason. Although, like Will Harmon, I tend to switch around sometimes and go with how the notes fall on a given tune.
P
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Banjo fingering
Tusong200,
Actually the person I was referring to was Gerry O'Connor who is no slouch on the fiddle either. John Carty seems to have gone the same route as has a number of other well known banjo players.
But that's not the reason I use cello fingering most of the time; I use it because it fits my style and I find it easier to play faster with the cello style.
BTW, there seems to be a lot of controversy about reaching the high B note and whether or not one has to switch to fiddle fingering style to do so. As far as I am concerned there are at least three ways to reach the B note: sliding the pinky from the A, going to second position by moving the whole hand up one or two frets and playing the B with the pinky or the ring finger, and making a giant leap for music by playing an F# or G with the first finger and jumping up to the B as in Maid Behind The Bar. The nomenclature is not all that important as the way the tune is going dictates how you reach the B note.
I did notice that John Carty does go to second position a lot when he plays the banjo the way fiddlers often do and I have tried to emulate that in my playing.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by mikeyes