Any advice out there on doing a fast piece on the fiddle.I can get a good beat going but getting a lot of different notes with that speed is hard for me.
I know a few words of wisdom from fellow fiddlers will help me alot. thanks
It depends on the style you want to play, of course. Arguably, getting "the beat" or rhythm right is as important(if not more so) than being able to play all the notes. There's plenty of people here who could give better technical advice than me so I'll let them come in first. I think it's important not to play a piece any faster than you are comfortable with--just build up speed gradually.
Eathbabe, it would help if you said what you are trying to play - is it a reel, jig, hornpipe, Irish or something else altogether? Ther are *so* many ways to group notes under one bow-stroke to define the rhythm....and maintain the speed while making it sound un-hurried...
It would also help to have some info in your member profile--how long have you played? Are you taking lessons (from whom)? Are you playing trad music or do you come at this from some other genre? etc.
Of course it's wise to not worry about speed--that will come--but to concentrate instead on playing cleanly with good tone and solid rhythm. Playing fast is not something you can rush into. There are no short cuts. You have to be able to fit all the notes in at a slow tempo, with control and feeling, or the same thing at speed will sound like a box of cats pushed down the up escalator.
Let me suggest that you work at playing up higher in the bow, in the upper half or even upper third, and use your wrist and fingers to propel the bow in short strokes, and not your arm. That will help give you quicker bow strokes. The bow is of course lighter the further away you get from the frog, and it will move faster up there without a lot of effort. You may also want to try playing along with a metronome, set at a comfortable speed that you can play the tune well at. Then 'sneak' the setting up a few numbers at a time over a week or two, and see if that doesn't work. You're kind of 'tricking' your own self into moving faster & faster a bit at a time.
Hya
Sorry Tom... I'm gonna disagree with you there... I think that it's easier to play fast in the middle of the bow (and slightly below) where you need to move your right arm through less of an angle to change strings. It's deceptively easy to play on one string in the top half of the bow, but much harder when you're doing lots of string crossing.
I'm getting lessons at the mo off Amy Geddes (who's bril) and she's weaning me off playing at the top of the bow. I've even had a wee sticker on to remind me of where the centre of the bow is as it sometimes feels like you're playing in the middle when actually your in the top half.
The other thing she's been getting me to work on is flexibility in the fingers and thumb of the right hand, so that again there's less arm movement when you're playing fast.
I guess each to their own tho
Sandra
I've got to agree with Sandra's advice on bowing, expecially getting flexibility in the right hand fingers for bow crossings. Sometimes practicing the bits that cause trouble with nothing but the thumb and index finger on the bow, so you can really get a feel for how much little movements in your index finger can accomplish, will really help. Just don't keep playing like that for long.
Your description makes it hard to tell whether you're having trouble with the left or right hand speed. If the trouble isn't the bowing, but getting your left hand fingers to move in sync with the bow, take a good look at how far you lift your fingers off the string - the closer (and more relaxed) you keep them to the strings when not in use, the more quickly and accurately they come down again.
I've found for me at least that speed isn't about expending more effort but about discovering how to expend the least effort possible for every motion. You have to find out what that feels like playing slowly first, though. And quality of notes *is* more imporant that quantity, imo.
I agree with Lia about the left hand fingers. I personally keep them just above the string (about 2mm) when I'm not using them on notes. It will help no end when you do begin to work up a good speed (economy of motion etc..)
Tom here once again. Just to let you know, I am a classically trained player, so some of my advice is going to come from that angle. But I have more than 4 decades of experience (oohhh-I'm not so sure I'm bragging about that length of time, actually...) and the advice I'm giving has worked for me in many styles-swing, trad & classical too-and most of the students I teach. It is so hard to give totally 100% useful advice, I think, without actually watching the person play. Earthbabe may have any number of 'bad' habits (including fingers moving too far from the fingerboard, stiff bow arm, bow movement & finger movement out of synch, general tension & the tendency to 'tense up' as she tries to go faster) that would be obvious in person. It is true that different things work for different players. But it has been my experience that playing in the middle of the bow-the 'center of the teeter-totter board' so to speak does not solve everything string-crossing-wise. If you learn to do circle movements with your wrist, then you can do tremendously fast bow crossings much higher in the bow. Your bow arm is not making big movements at all.
I will once again agree, however, that I have seen fiddle players play well and quickly in most any part of the bow you can think of and it often amazes me, I'm watching them and saying, man that's not possible.
As has been said, its all about flexibility in the wrist. If you're playing fast then the tiny flicks of the wrist and fingers are what produces the neat fast passages as well as some of the ornamentation (of course much of this is from the left hand). If your wrist is tight and unflexible then this rapidity is much harder and very tiring. This does not mean that the bowing arm never moves - sometimes a movement from higher in the arm can assist in accenting a particular note. All in all, though, it is probably a good idea to make sure you feel technically sure at a slower speed at first. However, its worth remembering that many tunes are ruined at rocket speed, and lose the qualities that make them unique - and furthermore if you are a session player you may lose certain instruments along the way, that are unable to work at such high speeds. Try, for instance, playing the bodhran with a speeding fiddler - its certainly possible, but not for any length of time.
Hi Earthbabe,
The thing I've found most useful when I've been trying to get up to speed on a fast tune is a piece of advice given me by an accordion-player friend (Hi Toby, you speed demon!). I play the tune through two or three times fairly slowly to get it into my fingers. Then I play it through three more times, starting a little faster than the original repetitions, and doing each new repetition faster than the last. The third of the three should be about as fast as you can play it and still not miss more than one or two notes. Then let the tune go for the day. Come back next day and do it again, trying to be a wee bit faster when you get to the "speed" reps. After a week or so of this I find I've significantly improved my speed on the tune and am much closer to having a good feel for it into the bargain..
That said, do talk to your teacher (if you have one) and see if you have one or more of the "bad habits" mentioned above, any of which could be slowing you down.
Good luck!
Saraî
Thanks everyone!
I am teaching myself so any help is much appreciated.
I've been seriously playing for a couple years.Messing around for 7 or so. I met a great man who saw some potential in me. So we have been playing out 2-3 times a week in our house gig.I have a good ear and can find almost anything he plays on his guitar or piano.We play pop country, southern rock, americana stuff.Sometimes when he takes a break I have a solo, which is usually some madeup jig.( I know I'm probably breaking some rules) So I found this sight and want to learn a few reels or jigs for my gigs.Being an irish american born in westvirginia people are expecting something of me here in florida.
Its BETTER to player higher up the bow when playing fast.Its got nothing to do with what you find easier...thats easy to find. However, playing fast lower down makes a harsher sound because speed varies directly with how relaxed your wrist is. To make very fast notes all thats needed is a slight rotation of the wrist back and forth. Doing this lower down makes a scrunch as the bow is turning round on the string as opposed to curving around it (which happens at the top): hence the crap sound.
I started playing fiddle five years ago and found that playing old time music for dancers greatly improved my playing. When you play the same tune for 10 minutes, you tend to naturally fall into a rhythm. But the old time tunes like Soldier's joy seem to work best with one note per bow stroke. For ITM, I am trying to average about two notes per bow stroke. I do play three notes per bow for a lot of jigs, but with some single bow strokes thrown in to avoid too much monotony. My teacher gave me an excellent exercise. You play an ascending G scale slurring three notes, then single bowing three notes, then slurring three notes, etc. Will Harmon has an exercise based on Drowsy Maggie in which you mix single and slurred notes. After playing the exercises for a few weeks, I stopped going to my local session and started to relearn all of my jigs, and now I am relearning all my reels. One of the things I noticed with the jigs was that I could finally play them with a lilt, due to slurring three notes. The reels are more challenging, but the 50% slur ratio seems much better than what I was playing before. I stopped running through my entire tune list at practice time and started playing the same five or six reels. I practice Rakish Paddy, My love is in America, Star of Munster, Hunter's house, and Dan Breen's. The simpler the tune, the better. Now I find that I tend to fall into a pretty decent bowing pattern naturally, and have regained my speed.
You're right, it's about mixing it up.
But try this one: play as much of the tune you can with a single stroke, including crossing strings without changing direction. You have to articulate each note with the fingers on your left hand.
Took a workshop with Tommy Peoples a bit ago. His theory on bowing is that something should happen to interrupt between each note -- a change of pitch, an ornament of one sort or another, a bow switch of direction, or a string change. He says he thinks less about bowing per se and more about some kind of interruption between each note.
bowing advice
bowing advice
Any advice out there on doing a fast piece on the fiddle.I can get a good beat going but getting a lot of different notes with that speed is hard for me.
I know a few words of wisdom from fellow fiddlers will help me alot. thanks
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by earthbabe
Re: bowing advice
It depends on the style you want to play, of course. Arguably, getting "the beat" or rhythm right is as important(if not more so) than being able to play all the notes. There's plenty of people here who could give better technical advice than me so I'll let them come in first. I think it's important not to play a piece any faster than you are comfortable with--just build up speed gradually.
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: bowing advice
Eathbabe, it would help if you said what you are trying to play - is it a reel, jig, hornpipe, Irish or something else altogether? Ther are *so* many ways to group notes under one bow-stroke to define the rhythm....and maintain the speed while making it sound un-hurried...
Jim
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: bowing advice
It would also help to have some info in your member profile--how long have you played? Are you taking lessons (from whom)? Are you playing trad music or do you come at this from some other genre? etc.
Of course it's wise to not worry about speed--that will come--but to concentrate instead on playing cleanly with good tone and solid rhythm. Playing fast is not something you can rush into. There are no short cuts. You have to be able to fit all the notes in at a slow tempo, with control and feeling, or the same thing at speed will sound like a box of cats pushed down the up escalator.
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: bowing advice
Let me suggest that you work at playing up higher in the bow, in the upper half or even upper third, and use your wrist and fingers to propel the bow in short strokes, and not your arm. That will help give you quicker bow strokes. The bow is of course lighter the further away you get from the frog, and it will move faster up there without a lot of effort. You may also want to try playing along with a metronome, set at a comfortable speed that you can play the tune well at. Then 'sneak' the setting up a few numbers at a time over a week or two, and see if that doesn't work. You're kind of 'tricking' your own self into moving faster & faster a bit at a time.
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by tom morley
Re: bowing advice
Hya
Sorry Tom... I'm gonna disagree with you there... I think that it's easier to play fast in the middle of the bow (and slightly below) where you need to move your right arm through less of an angle to change strings. It's deceptively easy to play on one string in the top half of the bow, but much harder when you're doing lots of string crossing.
I'm getting lessons at the mo off Amy Geddes (who's bril) and she's weaning me off playing at the top of the bow. I've even had a wee sticker on to remind me of where the centre of the bow is as it sometimes feels like you're playing in the middle when actually your in the top half.
The other thing she's been getting me to work on is flexibility in the fingers and thumb of the right hand, so that again there's less arm movement when you're playing fast.
I guess each to their own tho
Sandra
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by drizzt
Re: bowing advice
I've got to agree with Sandra's advice on bowing, expecially getting flexibility in the right hand fingers for bow crossings. Sometimes practicing the bits that cause trouble with nothing but the thumb and index finger on the bow, so you can really get a feel for how much little movements in your index finger can accomplish, will really help. Just don't keep playing like that for long.
Your description makes it hard to tell whether you're having trouble with the left or right hand speed. If the trouble isn't the bowing, but getting your left hand fingers to move in sync with the bow, take a good look at how far you lift your fingers off the string - the closer (and more relaxed) you keep them to the strings when not in use, the more quickly and accurately they come down again.
I've found for me at least that speed isn't about expending more effort but about discovering how to expend the least effort possible for every motion. You have to find out what that feels like playing slowly first, though. And quality of notes *is* more imporant that quantity, imo.
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by Lia Zito
Re: bowing advice
I agree with Lia about the left hand fingers. I personally keep them just above the string (about 2mm) when I'm not using them on notes. It will help no end when you do begin to work up a good speed (economy of motion etc..)
Jim
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: bowing advice
Tom here once again. Just to let you know, I am a classically trained player, so some of my advice is going to come from that angle. But I have more than 4 decades of experience (oohhh-I'm not so sure I'm bragging about that length of time, actually...) and the advice I'm giving has worked for me in many styles-swing, trad & classical too-and most of the students I teach. It is so hard to give totally 100% useful advice, I think, without actually watching the person play. Earthbabe may have any number of 'bad' habits (including fingers moving too far from the fingerboard, stiff bow arm, bow movement & finger movement out of synch, general tension & the tendency to 'tense up' as she tries to go faster) that would be obvious in person. It is true that different things work for different players. But it has been my experience that playing in the middle of the bow-the 'center of the teeter-totter board' so to speak does not solve everything string-crossing-wise. If you learn to do circle movements with your wrist, then you can do tremendously fast bow crossings much higher in the bow. Your bow arm is not making big movements at all.
I will once again agree, however, that I have seen fiddle players play well and quickly in most any part of the bow you can think of and it often amazes me, I'm watching them and saying, man that's not possible.
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by tom morley
Re: bowing advice
As has been said, its all about flexibility in the wrist. If you're playing fast then the tiny flicks of the wrist and fingers are what produces the neat fast passages as well as some of the ornamentation (of course much of this is from the left hand). If your wrist is tight and unflexible then this rapidity is much harder and very tiring. This does not mean that the bowing arm never moves - sometimes a movement from higher in the arm can assist in accenting a particular note. All in all, though, it is probably a good idea to make sure you feel technically sure at a slower speed at first. However, its worth remembering that many tunes are ruined at rocket speed, and lose the qualities that make them unique - and furthermore if you are a session player you may lose certain instruments along the way, that are unable to work at such high speeds. Try, for instance, playing the bodhran with a speeding fiddler - its certainly possible, but not for any length of time.
# Posted on July 24th 2004 by jakki S
Re: bowing advice
Relax. Enjoy the tune, get the feel of it and the speed will come.
Lots of tunes sound great, if not better, slower anyway - listen to some Martin Hayes.
I watched a programme once where a much "Older" fiddler complained that the youngsters played too fast.
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by richrua
Re: bowing advice
Hi Earthbabe,
The thing I've found most useful when I've been trying to get up to speed on a fast tune is a piece of advice given me by an accordion-player friend (Hi Toby, you speed demon!). I play the tune through two or three times fairly slowly to get it into my fingers. Then I play it through three more times, starting a little faster than the original repetitions, and doing each new repetition faster than the last. The third of the three should be about as fast as you can play it and still not miss more than one or two notes. Then let the tune go for the day. Come back next day and do it again, trying to be a wee bit faster when you get to the "speed" reps. After a week or so of this I find I've significantly improved my speed on the tune and am much closer to having a good feel for it into the bargain..
That said, do talk to your teacher (if you have one) and see if you have one or more of the "bad habits" mentioned above, any of which could be slowing you down.
Good luck!
Saraî
# Posted on July 25th 2004 by sara g
Re: bowing advice
Thanks everyone!
) So I found this sight and want to learn a few reels or jigs for my gigs.Being an irish american born in westvirginia people are expecting something of me here in florida.
I am teaching myself so any help is much appreciated.
I've been seriously playing for a couple years.Messing around for 7 or so. I met a great man who saw some potential in me. So we have been playing out 2-3 times a week in our house gig.I have a good ear and can find almost anything he plays on his guitar or piano.We play pop country, southern rock, americana stuff.Sometimes when he takes a break I have a solo, which is usually some madeup jig.( I know I'm probably breaking some rules
kelly
# Posted on July 27th 2004 by earthbabe
Re: bowing advice
practise slur rhythms and work on finger speed by doing trills
# Posted on July 29th 2004 by Choonz
Re: bowing advice
Its BETTER to player higher up the bow when playing fast.Its got nothing to do with what you find easier...thats easy to find. However, playing fast lower down makes a harsher sound because speed varies directly with how relaxed your wrist is. To make very fast notes all thats needed is a slight rotation of the wrist back and forth. Doing this lower down makes a scrunch as the bow is turning round on the string as opposed to curving around it (which happens at the top): hence the crap sound.
# Posted on July 29th 2004 by Choonz
Re: bowing advice
I started playing fiddle five years ago and found that playing old time music for dancers greatly improved my playing. When you play the same tune for 10 minutes, you tend to naturally fall into a rhythm. But the old time tunes like Soldier's joy seem to work best with one note per bow stroke. For ITM, I am trying to average about two notes per bow stroke. I do play three notes per bow for a lot of jigs, but with some single bow strokes thrown in to avoid too much monotony. My teacher gave me an excellent exercise. You play an ascending G scale slurring three notes, then single bowing three notes, then slurring three notes, etc. Will Harmon has an exercise based on Drowsy Maggie in which you mix single and slurred notes. After playing the exercises for a few weeks, I stopped going to my local session and started to relearn all of my jigs, and now I am relearning all my reels. One of the things I noticed with the jigs was that I could finally play them with a lilt, due to slurring three notes. The reels are more challenging, but the 50% slur ratio seems much better than what I was playing before. I stopped running through my entire tune list at practice time and started playing the same five or six reels. I practice Rakish Paddy, My love is in America, Star of Munster, Hunter's house, and Dan Breen's. The simpler the tune, the better. Now I find that I tend to fall into a pretty decent bowing pattern naturally, and have regained my speed.
# Posted on July 30th 2004 by russellrapport
Re: bowing advice
You're right, it's about mixing it up.
But try this one: play as much of the tune you can with a single stroke, including crossing strings without changing direction. You have to articulate each note with the fingers on your left hand.
# Posted on July 30th 2004 by ...
Re: bowing advice
Took a workshop with Tommy Peoples a bit ago. His theory on bowing is that something should happen to interrupt between each note -- a change of pitch, an ornament of one sort or another, a bow switch of direction, or a string change. He says he thinks less about bowing per se and more about some kind of interruption between each note.
Yet another two cents in the kitty!
# Posted on July 30th 2004 by Zina Lee