Could I call upon the wisdom of all you fiddle players out there? I am looking on behalf of a friend for a good method or product for marking finger positions on the fiddle. So far she has tried sticky dots from a stationers', but these have been very tricky to apply, the sticky stuff melts slightly during practice so that the dots slide a bit (which rather negates the point of having them in the first place), and when you take them off finally, the sticky residue is almost impossible to remove. Paint or nail varnish straight onto the fingerboard would not seem to be a great idea for preserving the fiddle's value - so she hasn't done that yet, but she's been tempted!
(I have heard that there are different opinions in fiddle teaching about whether using finger position markers is a good idea, but my friend is determined to get some, so I said I would try to help).
When my daughter was learning the violin I used PVC electricians insulating tape for the single position marker requested by her teacher. This seemed to work OK and is readily available.
She did tell me a funny story of one parent who when asked to do this put the tape over the top of the strings!
Hi Jane,
I was told by a fiddler never to use electrical tape, my teacher also refuses to use it. Instead, while I was learning she got sticky "hi my name is..." badges and cut them in to very thin strips and stuck them to the bridge. My ego was bruised by the glaring white "hey! look at the beginner" strips but they really helped my intonation and I was very proud to graduate from them.
Just some thoughts,
beck
Of course, you should emphasize that she must learn to connect the position of her finger with the tone in her ear, without looking. The markers should be abandoned eventually.
But I think everyone starts out with markers, myself included, so here's what worked for me: cut thin strips of masking tape, slip them under the strings at the right spots (use a tuner to be certain) and then wrap them tightly and completely around the neck, overlapping on the bottom of the neck, opposite the strings.
Masking tape is good, if applied tightly, because it stays a while and the sticky stuff doesn't remain when you remove them. When it does wear off it's because you're practicing often and well, and that probably means it's time to get rid of them anyway.
Don't forget, it's more important to hear the right tone without looking than to watch your fingers hit the tape without paying attention to the tone.
I still use a very thin transparent sticky strip which is positioned where the 7th fret would be, ie where I would play the note with my pinkie. It's barely visible and I don't need to use them anywhere else. I'm not that great further up the neck and have to make an effort to specifically practice those few tunes that I play outwith the first position.
Don't know if this is of any use, but I found that drilling holes where my fingers should go on the flute was very useful. If I take care to completely cover them, I can change the pitch of the note I am blowing. Then by raising and lowering my fingers I can play a tune.
Sometimes I use a very thin transparent sticky strip which is positioned where the beer comes up to in my glass. Then when I come back from the bog, if it's any lower I know someone has been at my grog. If the beer is any higher it's rather more worrying.
LOL Mark! Jane, they make a special tape that's formulated to stay put without leaving residue on fiddle or fingers. Look to anywhere that sells stuff to school violinist types, locally.
Electrical tape works very well. The sticky residue comes off without any troubly if you use a little super-fine-grade steel wool. Be *very* carefull not to touch any varnish, but it won't damage either the fingerboard or the french polish on the neck if you only use the 0000 polishing grade and only just enough to remove the sticky. When I worked at a violin shop taking care of the fleet of shool rentals and fractionals this is how we took care of the sticky on the necks. That being said, the owner of the shop also reccomended using white out, since it was durable and didn't leave any sticky residue. You can just apply a small dot right under the string, so it isn't as visible, and has a tactile bumpiness as well. I've tried it, and it works, but for my own students I've gone back to tapes, they're just easier to apply for me, and a little steel wool takes care of all the sticky problem.
In the case of beer that's been tampered with, less is definitely more. No, I'd wait till someone else answered the call of nature and institute a subtle substitution...
My teacher put electrical tape on my fingerboard and it made a nasty, sticky mess...
Unfortunatley, it started sliding around and coming off the night before my first ever performance.
Normally, I'd just have said, "Well, it's time to lose that nasty stuff." but trying to play with no reference under that much stress (ie: never change anything the night before a, more or less a first performance) was going to make me crazy.
I put a very tiny dot of dark nail polish (don't do this on a rental) in between the "D" and "A" strings at the 1st and 3rd finger position. I couldn't really "see" it, but when I got nervous, I could feel it.
Grymater's post jarred me a bit. I teach kids to play fiddle and nearly all of them do just fine without any markers on the fingerboard. The only ones who use markers are those whose fiddles already have thme plastered on, and we just don't bother to take them off until the kid decides s/he's ready, which is typically within a month or two.
It helps to have a system for first position fingering: index and ring are done by ear and are relatively easy for most people (a whole step up from open to index, and then ring finger is an octave above the string below). From there, you position your middle finger either touching the index (for g,c,f, and bflat) or touching the ring (for the same notes sharped and Bnat). Pinky is again just a whole step up in most of the music we play--by the time someone is ready for "flat" keys, intonation is less of an issue.
Like everything else we do in this music, everyone's free to do what works for them. But learning by _listening_ is never a bad idea.
I agree there, Will. From what I've seen over the years, fingerboard markers immediately identify the kid as A Beginner, and they usually can't wait to get the things off their fiddles as soon as possible.
Another thing I've seen are markers stuck on the bow by a well-meaning teacher, presumably so that the beginner can see where the ends and the middle are
Come to think of it, there may be a "slightly" better excuse for markers on a cello fingerboard because the distances between the notes are much greater than on the fiddle and it's more difficult to play in tune initially. But I would still teach without them. And there's no excuse for bow markers!
Trevor
Well, I don't quite agree. Especially for young students (and I think the bow markers probably come out of the Suzuki method that starts as young as 3) it does help kids to have extra visual cues. There is already so much to figure out all at once when you learn the fiddle that anything that makes getting from posture to the first tune faster keeps the student from getting discouraged. Then once they're well set into enjoying playing music it's easy to help them pay attention to finger (and bow) placement without the markers without worrying that they'll give up in frustration.
They're useful tools in some circumstances to help students get started without being overwhelmed by the comlexity of the instrument. (Which is no excuse for teachers who don't encourage their students to move beyond them.)
It's probably an advantage for players who have been used to fretted instruments to have markers at the beginning. However, if you are learning the fiddle as your first instrument, you might be better not to bother with markers.
When I was first taught fiddle, I often got confused as I was thinking in terms of semi tones and frets whereas the tutor was talking about first, second, third finger, and so on.
Oh sweet mother of mercy: tippex??? nail varnish?!?!? There's bad and there's horrific guys.
In this case, I totally agree with zed; markers often confuse beginners and should, (if at all), be used sparingly and in such a way that WILL NOT harm the violin. Markers often have a tendency to confuse learners; the introduction of pitch, tonality and thus tuning etc. is often far more successful once a certain level of confidence has been established. Also, unless the individual has already had a few years of experience, they will not have enough musical knowledge to really understand the purpose of their actions i.e. why they are turning a peg clockwise: to sharpen/raise the pitch.
Can I say a big thank-you to everyone who has posted replies to this thread. My friend will try all the suggestions, first following zed's recommendation about super-fine wire wool to remove the residue left by what she has tried already!
Where else but The Session could you get instant expert advice - it's brilliant!
Being big on challenging myself, arf, (refused to learn to ride my bike with stabilisers - that's cheating, mum!) I think I'd rather learn without them. Just so I could say I did :D But whatever works for you, as long as you end up a good fiddler, who cares?
If a learner is to have markers on the fingerboard then I would recommend just one marker, and that where the 3rd finger should go if playing the A on the E-string or D on the A-string, etc. This will give a sensible base-mark because it can be used to test for octaves - the octave above the string below. When a learner can play that 3rd finger note reasonably accurately every time without looking at the fiddle then there is no further need for markers and the learner's ear is clearly developing to the stage when out-of-tune notes can be sensed and corrected immediately.
Trevor
Try a dot of crazyglue at the precise point where the note occurs. (There's a tiny difference for the same fingering positions on each string, due to string tension and thickness)
Note the string you are going to mark by pressing it down with a thumbnail, make sure it is in tune, either with your ear or an electronic tuner. Use a fine felt marker to mark the point of intonation on the top surface of the string, then put a tiny dot of crazyglue on the fingerboard to the right (treble) side of the string, exactly even with the mark.
When you play, your finger can feel the dot - it's like Braille for the fiddle!
The beauty of this method is that the dots are practically invisible, and you can place one (or many) at notes that are giving you trouble (I still have the one at the high B).
When you no longer are in need of them, (or the position was slightly off and you want to try again) the dot can be removed with the flick of a fingernail, and no trace is left on the fingerboard.
I found it to be a great learning aid, almost like, ah, I was going to say "frets" but it's not the same...
I had first, second and third finger positions (plus fourth finger on the E string) marked this way for the first year I was trying to learn, and it really helped a lot.
Finger position markers for fiddles
Finger position markers for fiddles
Could I call upon the wisdom of all you fiddle players out there? I am looking on behalf of a friend for a good method or product for marking finger positions on the fiddle. So far she has tried sticky dots from a stationers', but these have been very tricky to apply, the sticky stuff melts slightly during practice so that the dots slide a bit (which rather negates the point of having them in the first place), and when you take them off finally, the sticky residue is almost impossible to remove. Paint or nail varnish straight onto the fingerboard would not seem to be a great idea for preserving the fiddle's value - so she hasn't done that yet, but she's been tempted!
(I have heard that there are different opinions in fiddle teaching about whether using finger position markers is a good idea, but my friend is determined to get some, so I said I would try to help).
# Posted on July 7th 2004 by LW
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
When my daughter was learning the violin I used PVC electricians insulating tape for the single position marker requested by her teacher. This seemed to work OK and is readily available.
She did tell me a funny story of one parent who when asked to do this put the tape over the top of the strings!
John
# Posted on July 7th 2004 by rosenun
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Hi Jane,
I was told by a fiddler never to use electrical tape, my teacher also refuses to use it. Instead, while I was learning she got sticky "hi my name is..." badges and cut them in to very thin strips and stuck them to the bridge. My ego was bruised by the glaring white "hey! look at the beginner" strips but they really helped my intonation and I was very proud to graduate from them.
Just some thoughts,
beck
# Posted on July 7th 2004 by ThelenRA
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Of course, you should emphasize that she must learn to connect the position of her finger with the tone in her ear, without looking. The markers should be abandoned eventually.
But I think everyone starts out with markers, myself included, so here's what worked for me: cut thin strips of masking tape, slip them under the strings at the right spots (use a tuner to be certain) and then wrap them tightly and completely around the neck, overlapping on the bottom of the neck, opposite the strings.
Masking tape is good, if applied tightly, because it stays a while and the sticky stuff doesn't remain when you remove them. When it does wear off it's because you're practicing often and well, and that probably means it's time to get rid of them anyway.
Don't forget, it's more important to hear the right tone without looking than to watch your fingers hit the tape without paying attention to the tone.
# Posted on July 7th 2004 by grymater
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
I still use a very thin transparent sticky strip which is positioned where the 7th fret would be, ie where I would play the note with my pinkie. It's barely visible and I don't need to use them anywhere else. I'm not that great further up the neck and have to make an effort to specifically practice those few tunes that I play outwith the first position.
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Back for a while
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Don't know if this is of any use, but I found that drilling holes where my fingers should go on the flute was very useful. If I take care to completely cover them, I can change the pitch of the note I am blowing. Then by raising and lowering my fingers I can play a tune.
Sometimes I use a very thin transparent sticky strip which is positioned where the beer comes up to in my glass. Then when I come back from the bog, if it's any lower I know someone has been at my grog. If the beer is any higher it's rather more worrying.
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
LOL Mark! Jane, they make a special tape that's formulated to stay put without leaving residue on fiddle or fingers. Look to anywhere that sells stuff to school violinist types, locally.
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Electrical tape works very well. The sticky residue comes off without any troubly if you use a little super-fine-grade steel wool. Be *very* carefull not to touch any varnish, but it won't damage either the fingerboard or the french polish on the neck if you only use the 0000 polishing grade and only just enough to remove the sticky. When I worked at a violin shop taking care of the fleet of shool rentals and fractionals this is how we took care of the sticky on the necks. That being said, the owner of the shop also reccomended using white out, since it was durable and didn't leave any sticky residue. You can just apply a small dot right under the string, so it isn't as visible, and has a tactile bumpiness as well. I've tried it, and it works, but for my own students I've gone back to tapes, they're just easier to apply for me, and a little steel wool takes care of all the sticky problem.
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Lia Zito
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Ottery, if the level of beer is higher, do you still drink it? Inquiring minds want to know.....
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Batlady
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
In the case of beer that's been tampered with, less is definitely more. No, I'd wait till someone else answered the call of nature and institute a subtle substitution...
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
My teacher put electrical tape on my fingerboard and it made a nasty, sticky mess...
Unfortunatley, it started sliding around and coming off the night before my first ever performance.
Normally, I'd just have said, "Well, it's time to lose that nasty stuff." but trying to play with no reference under that much stress (ie: never change anything the night before a, more or less a first performance) was going to make me crazy.
I put a very tiny dot of dark nail polish (don't do this on a rental) in between the "D" and "A" strings at the 1st and 3rd finger position. I couldn't really "see" it, but when I got nervous, I could feel it.
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Lisa Lawrence
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Grymater's post jarred me a bit. I teach kids to play fiddle and nearly all of them do just fine without any markers on the fingerboard. The only ones who use markers are those whose fiddles already have thme plastered on, and we just don't bother to take them off until the kid decides s/he's ready, which is typically within a month or two.
It helps to have a system for first position fingering: index and ring are done by ear and are relatively easy for most people (a whole step up from open to index, and then ring finger is an octave above the string below). From there, you position your middle finger either touching the index (for g,c,f, and bflat) or touching the ring (for the same notes sharped and Bnat). Pinky is again just a whole step up in most of the music we play--by the time someone is ready for "flat" keys, intonation is less of an issue.
Like everything else we do in this music, everyone's free to do what works for them. But learning by _listening_ is never a bad idea.
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
I agree there, Will. From what I've seen over the years, fingerboard markers immediately identify the kid as A Beginner, and they usually can't wait to get the things off their fiddles as soon as possible.
Another thing I've seen are markers stuck on the bow by a well-meaning teacher, presumably so that the beginner can see where the ends and the middle are
Trevor
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Seen the little clips shaped like sheep and such that you can get to clip to the tip of your bow to help with the weight?
Very cute.
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Come to think of it, there may be a "slightly" better excuse for markers on a cello fingerboard because the distances between the notes are much greater than on the fiddle and it's more difficult to play in tune initially. But I would still teach without them. And there's no excuse for bow markers!
Trevor
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Well, I don't quite agree. Especially for young students (and I think the bow markers probably come out of the Suzuki method that starts as young as 3) it does help kids to have extra visual cues. There is already so much to figure out all at once when you learn the fiddle that anything that makes getting from posture to the first tune faster keeps the student from getting discouraged. Then once they're well set into enjoying playing music it's easy to help them pay attention to finger (and bow) placement without the markers without worrying that they'll give up in frustration.
They're useful tools in some circumstances to help students get started without being overwhelmed by the comlexity of the instrument. (Which is no excuse for teachers who don't encourage their students to move beyond them.)
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Lia Zito
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
It's probably an advantage for players who have been used to fretted instruments to have markers at the beginning. However, if you are learning the fiddle as your first instrument, you might be better not to bother with markers.
When I was first taught fiddle, I often got confused as I was thinking in terms of semi tones and frets whereas the tutor was talking about first, second, third finger, and so on.
# Posted on July 8th 2004 by Back for a while
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Oh sweet mother of mercy: tippex??? nail varnish?!?!? There's bad and there's horrific guys.
In this case, I totally agree with zed; markers often confuse beginners and should, (if at all), be used sparingly and in such a way that WILL NOT harm the violin. Markers often have a tendency to confuse learners; the introduction of pitch, tonality and thus tuning etc. is often far more successful once a certain level of confidence has been established. Also, unless the individual has already had a few years of experience, they will not have enough musical knowledge to really understand the purpose of their actions i.e. why they are turning a peg clockwise: to sharpen/raise the pitch.
# Posted on July 9th 2004 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Can I say a big thank-you to everyone who has posted replies to this thread. My friend will try all the suggestions, first following zed's recommendation about super-fine wire wool to remove the residue left by what she has tried already!
Where else but The Session could you get instant expert advice - it's brilliant!
# Posted on July 9th 2004 by LW
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Being big on challenging myself, arf, (refused to learn to ride my bike with stabilisers - that's cheating, mum!) I think I'd rather learn without them. Just so I could say I did :D But whatever works for you, as long as you end up a good fiddler, who cares?
# Posted on July 10th 2004 by fiddlefantastic
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
If a learner is to have markers on the fingerboard then I would recommend just one marker, and that where the 3rd finger should go if playing the A on the E-string or D on the A-string, etc. This will give a sensible base-mark because it can be used to test for octaves - the octave above the string below. When a learner can play that 3rd finger note reasonably accurately every time without looking at the fiddle then there is no further need for markers and the learner's ear is clearly developing to the stage when out-of-tune notes can be sensed and corrected immediately.
Trevor
# Posted on July 10th 2004 by lazyhound
Re: Finger position markers for fiddles
Try a dot of crazyglue at the precise point where the note occurs. (There's a tiny difference for the same fingering positions on each string, due to string tension and thickness)
Note the string you are going to mark by pressing it down with a thumbnail, make sure it is in tune, either with your ear or an electronic tuner. Use a fine felt marker to mark the point of intonation on the top surface of the string, then put a tiny dot of crazyglue on the fingerboard to the right (treble) side of the string, exactly even with the mark.
When you play, your finger can feel the dot - it's like Braille for the fiddle!
The beauty of this method is that the dots are practically invisible, and you can place one (or many) at notes that are giving you trouble (I still have the one at the high B).
When you no longer are in need of them, (or the position was slightly off and you want to try again) the dot can be removed with the flick of a fingernail, and no trace is left on the fingerboard.
I found it to be a great learning aid, almost like, ah, I was going to say "frets" but it's not the same...
I had first, second and third finger positions (plus fourth finger on the E string) marked this way for the first year I was trying to learn, and it really helped a lot.
# Posted on July 11th 2004 by Laughtonb