I have several tune books that contain some of the same titles. Often, when I play through a tune I think,
"I like this version better than that other one." Am I responding to my own strengths and weaknesses as
a fiddler? With 3 or 4 available settings, which should I play and how to choose?
Choose the one you like the best, and then go from there. If you go to a session and they play a different version, learn that one next. Or, choose the one most resembling the versions you hear on cds. Or take the bits you like best from each and blend them! I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about choosing a setting. It comes down to personal taste. I always start with the one I like the best because I figure it'll be a lot more fun to learn that way. More experienced players may have a different view on this, though....
Which setting you choose depends on when and where you want to play it. If you are playing tunes with other people, you'll obviously want to learn to play it the way they do. If you're playing alone, you're free to pick any setting that suits your fancy.
From a strictly traditional point of view, though, you should use your tunebooks as kindling for an accordion fire. (Now watch the sparks fly!) If you can, learn tunes from a living, breathing human. Ultimately, your expression of a tune should be yours. It's not classical music. The printed material for trad stuff should be regarded as a suggestion, not an ultimatum.
If you have to rely on the printed music, find every version you can get your hands on, then learn the simplest setting and refer to all the others for ideas on how to ornament and when. Then pick the ones you like and ignore the ones you don't, varying your ornamentation with each cycle through the tune. Try not to get stuck.
Hi Joe,
Learning tunes from sheet music alone is always a bit of a gamble. The most important things to keep in mind are that there is no single "authoritative" or "definitive" version of a tune, and most written sources are at best approximations of how the tune might actually be played.
In short, pick the version you like best, learn it, and feel free to change it to suit your playing and tastes.
Having said all that, I'll go on spouting off to point out that you can broaden your playing and tastes by trying things in unfamiliar ways. This tends to be easier to do by emulating recordings or live players, rather than sheet music, but some written sources are detailed enough to get you inside the head of the transcriber/player and you can play along with their sense of where the ornamentation belongs, or their sense of phrasing. The Krassen edition of O'Neill's for example throws way too much ornamentation into most of the tunes, but it's a fair way to understand how to heavily ornament a tune (along the lines of a Sligo fiddler, perhaps). Krassen explains this in the intro, saying he was combining different settings into one transcription to give a sense of the variety and possibilities for ornamenting the tunes. So if you play a tune straight out of Krassen as written, you'll sound Coleman influenced and probably sprain your left hand in the process.
Breathnach's Ceol Rince na hEireann series tends to be more true to acutal played (and playable) versions of the tunes, but realize that he collected from many different sources--recordings, transcripts, and the gamut of different instruments. To fit some of these on fiddle, you'll need to tweak them. And if you're accustomed to playing along with John Doherty recordings, you'll have some adjustments to make jumping over to Seamus Connolly or Sean Keane, or vice versa.
Of course all of this is easier to do, and will sound more "authentic," if you listen to A LOT of Irish music. Only by listening intently and widely over years can you gain the big picture perspective that will help you decide how to interpret a tune and yet stay within (or on the fringes of ) the tradition.
So...go ahead and favor your personal strengths and tastes. As long as you're aware that other options exist, and why you're making the choices you are, you'll do fine.
I always found that settings found me, which ever setting I learn first tends to be the setting I usually end up liking the best. Even so tunes change as I hear more settings i usually tend to pick up all the bits i like & leaving the rest. The best settings are from hearing people play them, be wary of tunebooks & even more so - ABC's from an unreliable source.
Thanks all for your thoughtful responses. I'm a bit reluctant to trust my ear and my personal opinions about ITM since I am relatively new to the music.
Years ago, as a teenager, I hated Bill Monroe opon first hearing. I am not hearing all the subtleites of the music yet and I don't want
to shut out a style or player simply because they don't appeal to me today. A good friend has turned me on to some classic recordings
and I think it's got to help. I listened to the two paddy's "Doublin" so much that all those setting seem "right" to me. I'm just trying to give the music its due
instead of me inventing my own Celto-swingy-Tex -grass fiddling style.
Joe (who lives 300 miles from the nearest Irish Fiddler, but only a short hop through the internet)
Joe, were you at the North Texas this weekend? There's usually some great players there.
I love the Doublin' album -- another CD may take its place in the car CD, but it always eventually goes back in there. You can't go too wrong listening to either Paddy. (Keep in mind that Paddy Glackin is a Donegal player, though.)
Joe, isolated as you are, you'll probably find it impossible to leard Irish fiddling from printed material. Learning the notes is only a tiny little fraction of the massive journey from "playing" ITM to "living" ITM. Will's advice about a constant diet of recordings is dead on, and will give you a feel for how it's supposed to sound, but won't help you learn how to MAKE those sounds. You're on the right track getting involved in these discussions - I've seen technique eloquently broken down to bite-sized morsels so refined you can almost hear it. Try to make it to festivals and workshops where you can pester ITM players for tips. I've found great players usually love to share their hard-won wisdom with an eager student and many have gone out of their way to make time to talk to me. Best to leave your fiddle in the case, though... you don't want to cross that hazy line between a "conversation" and a "lesson" unless the person you're pestering invites you to do so.
Zina- I didn't make the North TX fest although Burke and Crannitch among others were there.
I'm not learning in total isolation, although close to it. I am a Scoiltrad baby and Kevin Glackin is taking good care of me.
There is a small weekly session in Lubbock hosted by the fabulous Dr. Chris Smith who teaches at Texas Tech University
and plays world class ITM tenor banjo. Altought he is very welcoming, I have been reluctant to burden their good session
with my slow fiddling. So, this winter I've been woodsheding, hoping to get up to speed. Chris' settings seem to my ear to
be very standard and therefore a great source for me.
I hope to attend Zoukfest in Taos in July - Randal Bays is the fiddle instructor and I look forward to the close up instruction
opportunity.
BTW, someone tell me - what is the protocol for these discussions? Although I started talking about settings, I'm now on to something else.
Should I have started a new discussion?
Hey Joe and anyone else likely to come visiting for the Zoukfest,
I am hoping to make it up for at least some of the Zoukfest this summer as well. We should have a thesession.org get together.
If anyone is planning on staying up in Taos, be warned, Taos in the summer is a non-tourist nightmare (i.e if you actually want to get somewhere at a particular time). The streets in the downtown area are impossible - I've sat in traffic for an hours trying to get through a very short section of road - and hotels book up fairly early. It looks like the events are going to be held at Ft. Bergwin which is outside of Taos proper, to the south. So, whatever you do, don't stay on the north side (you will have to go through downtown). There are a fair number of hotels on the south side. I can't tell if you can stay on campus, that would obviously be the best, because I suspect that it is too far to walk from any of the hotels.
This is all rather off topic and perhaps not of interest to very many, I appologize if I should have started a new thread or perhaps not have posted at all.
When in doubt, Joe, leave meanderings in the original thread, I'd say. Sleep on it, and if you're still keen on starting a whole new conversation just to talk about ITM related summer plans, give 'er. (That one's for you, Zina!).
Based on Glackins evaluation of my natural inclinations, (I single bow alot!) Donegal seems to be the
way to go. The Donegal settings I have heard so far are very attractive and probably do-able -
at a medium to slow pace. The problem is speeding up these settings. A more slur-oriented style might
help me deal with speed issues but I just don't "feel" a heavily slurred approach. I'm having a great time
and small improvements are exciting. Because I'm new here, tell me - what styles are you guys playing?
Do you all specialize? Should this be a new discussion? For a guy from West Texas, I sure ask alot of
questions.
Because I've lived in the middle of nowhere for so long, my "personal style" (such as it is) is inluenced by Thistle and Shamrock and all these cds. So the tunes I've learned off an Altan recording come out in a Donegal style, and the tunes from Coleman sound Sligo, and from Mike Rafferty, East Galway, etc. I don't think about it too much myself (except that, yes, the Donegal stuff gets singled bowed and much of it goes very fast), but when I meet other fiddlers more rooted in one style, they either wrinkle their nose at my mongrel approach, or they try to flatter me that I can play in so many styles.
Joe, the Donegal stuff is great for getting your bow speed and quick changes of direction going. This will help you play at tempo in any other style down the road. Don't force the speed, but do work on getting those quick, short bow strokes going up and down so you can play at session speed with hardly a slur. Then if you branch in to a more slurred style, it will feel easier.
Listen to a lot of Ciaran Tourish (Altan)--an underappreciated master of the Donegal fiddle.
I've found the slurred stuff is just harder to feel. I don't know many people who've been able to nail it without a lot of thought and practice about when to slur... The style I'm working on (West Clare), my teacher often slurs right into the first beat of a measure on an upbow, which was really wierd to me.
I used to think I was naturally inclined to some kind of Scottish / East Coast or possibly Donegal fast paced single bowing style just because that's what I did. What I'm starting to do is WAAAAAAAAAAY more complicated. I'm finding it's much tougher to play slower and focus on melody than it was to play fast and focus on rhythm.
Ooh, and I used to slur to deal with speed as well, but I ended up with very boring slur patterns. I'm thinking of slurring now as a way to enhance the melody, and make certain notes pop out.
Because so many concertina players come from sw Ireland, I have listened to that style with very few exceptions.
But I think I tend to play more often in the Sligo style, concentrating on a strong rhythm. I blame it on playing for Morris dancing for years!
So I guess you could call me one of Will's mongrels. : )
Here's a web site for all you Donegal devotees - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6464/hmpg.html
Stuck here in paradise (aka middle of nowhere), I've relied mostly on Thistle and Shamrock and a stack of cds to pick up tunes, and, consequently, styles. So I tend to play tunes from Altan in a Donegal style (single bowing, triplets, not too many rolls), Coleman tunes in a Sligo style (longer bow strokes, lots of slurring, rolls, triplet runs, etc), Mike Rafferty tunes in an East Galway style (straightforward, less ornamentation--mostly rolls--but a definite bounce or lift), Bobby Casey, Jr. Crehan, and Martin Hayes tunes in a Clare style (slower, emphasizing the melody, lift), etc.
I came at all of this from several early years emulating (well, *trying* to emulate him and doing a terrible job at it) Kevin Burke (I lived in western Oregon at the time). But I probably could've saved myself years of hard work if I had started single bowing everything until I understood where to put the accents and how to phrase things. It's much harder to control those things when you're slurring notes all over the place, and it took me a long time before I could control accents and dynamics equally well up bow or down. What finally makes the slurring click is when you can change these things in the middle of a slur, going either direction. Those upbow slurs into the down beat Kerri mentions are crucial to getting lift into the tunes with almost any slurred style, and they work best when you can build emphasis onto one note or the other into the slur.
If you work at it long enough, eventually your mind quits focusing on single bows and slurs and up or down bows. You just do whatever you need to to get the sound from your head into the air above it. And then you start bowing things forwards, backwards, and inside out as you play with the phrasing, etc. Some years ago, I realized I'd broken through when I no longer had one snap answer to the question, "How do you bow that phrase?" The answer becomes, "Well, if you do it like this, it sounds like so. And if you do it this way, it sounds more like...and then you could try this, or...."
The point is, if you don't like the way a certain phrase sounds, try a different bowing approach. And when you DO really like the way a certain phrase sounds, try a different bowing approach anyway. Eventually you'll be able to bow it lots of different ways to suit your mood, the character of the tune, the speed you're playing at any given time, the people you're playing with, etc.
All this is more fun and comes easier/quicker if you play a lot with other people. Hmmm...sounds like a good excuse for a session....
Glad to hear you say the bit about starting with single bow strokes, Will. I think it's part of what gave me a good sense of rhythm pretty quick. Some of the beginners I hear play with so many slurs the tune comes out almost shapeless. I guess they think that since the experts do it that it's the way to start. I'm really just now learning to feel where a slur might sound good and to experiment with them. Kerri, for awhile I thought I would be going with the Donegal style as well, not because it was my favorite, but because I didn't think I'd ever be able to start hearing patterns and applying them. It sure doesn't come naturally yet, though!
I love Morris tunes, Charlene. I don't know many, but I pick a new one up every once in awhile. If I ever get the chance I'd love to play for the dancers sometime! If I'd been a more advanced fiddler when I lived in Berkeley I would have approached the local side there. Any good Morris sites on the web? Tune links?
One way to get used to slurring across the beat, especially from the end of one bar onto the downbeat of the next, is to do it in a jig. An easy jig to start with is My Darling Asleep.
K: D
e|fdd cAA|BAG A2 G|FGA def|gfg eag|fdd... etc.
Slur across each bar line, from e to f, from A to B, from G to F, from f to g, and from g to f again. Now I wouldn't play it this way all the time--*always* slurring would be too predictable, and it'll give a seasickness-inducing sway to the tune unless you break it up with some single bows. But as a pratice piece, this will help you get the feel for it. You can also run the slurs mostly on down bows, then switch it around and do them on up bows to test your comfort level going different directions.
Most fiddlers I've talked with tell me that at some point in their careers, they studied their bowing this closely, breaking it down into all the components, running through all the different rhythms (reels, hornpipes, jigs, slip jigs, slides, polkas, etc.), and testing all the possibilities before reassembling it and eventually running on autopilot. Some people don't like such an analytical approach, but in my book, it's an important stepping stone to more subliminal playing.
Learning how to bow in "figure eights" was what made up my first lessons. Learning basic bowing patterns early on is a good thing, single bowing adds to the saw-away sound that beginners too often have already.
The main points to work on for a beginer should be holding the fiddle & bow correctly; I'm not saying as to go as far as classical players go, but a good bow grip helps your tone alot. Once you've got that down than work on swing & intonation. The bowing will fall into place, just learn the basic ways of bowing common figures & apply what sounds good. Never mind what some other fiddler is doing with bowing, just do what works for you.
Brad's right--it's all too easy to play without emphasis and swing when you single bow everthing. There's a risk of producing that beginner's sound. But I'd argue that it's also possible to play with a lot of lift and swing in single bows, and starting off by trying to get it with single bows (eliminating the confusion that slurring can cause), may really work well for some people.
I also agree that ultimately you need to find what bowing works for you. But I like having a frame of reference, a "context" for my bowing that comes from having listened closely to what other (better) fiddlers were doing. It's a starting point, not an end point, a stepping stone to develop my own bowing. But I still try to pick up new ideas this way, and it helps me understand what I'm hearing when I listen to other people's playing.
I'm curious Bad, who did you take lessons from when you were starting out? Most of the East Coast fiddlers I've met can trace their instructional lineage back to Martin Mulvihill (sometimes through his son Brendan, or Brian Conroy), John Vesey, or another "name" player and teacher of the previous generation. It's interesting to see the circles of community and influence.
Yes, helping me understand what I hear other people do is part of what the Cranitch/Cooper methods have helped me with. I *have* memorized the bowing on the tunes I've gotten from those books and that has really shown me what some of the possibilities are. Now when I start learning a new tune from somewhere else, I start messing with the bowing right away. And I'm going back over my "old" tunes and messing with them, too. The slowdowner software is another "stepping stone" for me to hear how stuff can be phrased.
I like the idea of being able to bow forwards backwards and inside out, eventually. When your brain finally can let go of all the instructions scrolling through it the fiddling must get a lot more fluid and fun!
Will, I learned from two players (mostly) one was Ronnie Gilbert she learned from James Morrison when she was a little girl. I also learned from Tony DeMarco who learned from Martin Wynn & Paddy Reynolds (I think) I learned a lot from listening to Paddy Reynolds, Andy McGann & Johnny Cronin to name a very few - sometimes I'd ask them for tips after a preformance. I was supposed to go to Patrick Orceaux but it never panned out, but he gave me a couple great pointers in a few sessions - he is probably the nicest most encouraging person I've ever met.
Mulvihill was in Philadelphia & I think he had already passed on when I started to play.
Ronnie Gilbert's a familiar name, but I can't put a face or sound to it. James Morrison's another of those "big names" who spread the Sligo magic up and down the East coast through a horde of students who became teachers themsevles. You're fortunate.
Yeah, it drives me nuts all the great players in the NYC-Philly-Washington corridor back about 20-30 years ago. I lived 25 miles west of Independence Hall from 1966 through 1979 and managed to miss every great fiddler within a 300 mile radius. Despite working in a music store and playing in several bluegrass bands (more likely *because* of the bluegrass), I never ran into anyone who knew enough to say, "You ought to listen in at John Vesey's house on Thursday nights," or "You want to learn Irish fiddle? There's this Mulvihill guy...."
Still, I count myself lucky to have bumped into Mick Moloney's radio program in the late 1970s, and then when I moved West, a protege of Kevin Burke's in 1981.
Brad - second the motion on approval of Patrick Ourceau. Fiddlers in the crowd, don't miss the opportunity to take a workshop with Patrick if he comes to your town. Top quality individual, and the best workshop I ever took.
Ronnie Gilbert also went by Veronica McNamara, she played for feiseanna quite a bit but isn't a high profile player; I think it's more of a home hobby for her. When I met her she had broken her wrist in a car accident, I thought she played great then but she said that her playing was half of what it was before the accident. If anyone knows her let her know that I've been trying to get in touch with her but haven't had any success.
I'm finding that all of the 'settings' I've found in books and recordings mean squat in a session of players that have been playing together for years.
If you are new to the music (like me) and can't make it to an established session, plan to go to a summer camp and bring *lots* of blank minidiscs...
Is Ronnie Gilbert the one who used to sing with the Weavers? That Ronnie Gilbert has lately been recording with Holly Near.
Choosing A Setting
Choosing A Setting
I have several tune books that contain some of the same titles. Often, when I play through a tune I think,
"I like this version better than that other one." Am I responding to my own strengths and weaknesses as
a fiddler? With 3 or 4 available settings, which should I play and how to choose?
Joe
# Posted on March 4th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: Choosing A Setting
Choose the one you like the best, and then go from there. If you go to a session and they play a different version, learn that one next. Or, choose the one most resembling the versions you hear on cds. Or take the bits you like best from each and blend them! I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about choosing a setting. It comes down to personal taste. I always start with the one I like the best because I figure it'll be a lot more fun to learn that way. More experienced players may have a different view on this, though....
# Posted on March 4th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Choosing A Setting
Which setting you choose depends on when and where you want to play it. If you are playing tunes with other people, you'll obviously want to learn to play it the way they do. If you're playing alone, you're free to pick any setting that suits your fancy.
From a strictly traditional point of view, though, you should use your tunebooks as kindling for an accordion fire. (Now watch the sparks fly!) If you can, learn tunes from a living, breathing human. Ultimately, your expression of a tune should be yours. It's not classical music. The printed material for trad stuff should be regarded as a suggestion, not an ultimatum.
If you have to rely on the printed music, find every version you can get your hands on, then learn the simplest setting and refer to all the others for ideas on how to ornament and when. Then pick the ones you like and ignore the ones you don't, varying your ornamentation with each cycle through the tune. Try not to get stuck.
# Posted on March 4th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Choosing A Setting
Hi Joe,
Learning tunes from sheet music alone is always a bit of a gamble. The most important things to keep in mind are that there is no single "authoritative" or "definitive" version of a tune, and most written sources are at best approximations of how the tune might actually be played.
In short, pick the version you like best, learn it, and feel free to change it to suit your playing and tastes.
Having said all that, I'll go on spouting off to point out that you can broaden your playing and tastes by trying things in unfamiliar ways. This tends to be easier to do by emulating recordings or live players, rather than sheet music, but some written sources are detailed enough to get you inside the head of the transcriber/player and you can play along with their sense of where the ornamentation belongs, or their sense of phrasing. The Krassen edition of O'Neill's for example throws way too much ornamentation into most of the tunes, but it's a fair way to understand how to heavily ornament a tune (along the lines of a Sligo fiddler, perhaps). Krassen explains this in the intro, saying he was combining different settings into one transcription to give a sense of the variety and possibilities for ornamenting the tunes. So if you play a tune straight out of Krassen as written, you'll sound Coleman influenced and probably sprain your left hand in the process.
Breathnach's Ceol Rince na hEireann series tends to be more true to acutal played (and playable) versions of the tunes, but realize that he collected from many different sources--recordings, transcripts, and the gamut of different instruments. To fit some of these on fiddle, you'll need to tweak them. And if you're accustomed to playing along with John Doherty recordings, you'll have some adjustments to make jumping over to Seamus Connolly or Sean Keane, or vice versa.
Of course all of this is easier to do, and will sound more "authentic," if you listen to A LOT of Irish music. Only by listening intently and widely over years can you gain the big picture perspective that will help you decide how to interpret a tune and yet stay within (or on the fringes of ) the tradition.
So...go ahead and favor your personal strengths and tastes. As long as you're aware that other options exist, and why you're making the choices you are, you'll do fine.
# Posted on March 4th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Choosing A Setting
Wow, the three of us must have all posted at once! Like lions on a hobbled gazelle! Hope you don't feel overwhelmed, joe.
# Posted on March 4th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Choosing A Setting
Lions? Really? More like magpies on the neighbor's cat.
And of course, we all said basically the same thing...
# Posted on March 4th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Choosing A Setting
Um...but *helpful* magpies! Not the kind that screech *grin*.
# Posted on March 4th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Choosing A Setting
I always found that settings found me, which ever setting I learn first tends to be the setting I usually end up liking the best. Even so tunes change as I hear more settings i usually tend to pick up all the bits i like & leaving the rest. The best settings are from hearing people play them, be wary of tunebooks & even more so - ABC's from an unreliable source.
# Posted on March 4th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Choosing A Setting
Thanks all for your thoughtful responses. I'm a bit reluctant to trust my ear and my personal opinions about ITM since I am relatively new to the music.
Years ago, as a teenager, I hated Bill Monroe opon first hearing. I am not hearing all the subtleites of the music yet and I don't want
to shut out a style or player simply because they don't appeal to me today. A good friend has turned me on to some classic recordings
and I think it's got to help. I listened to the two paddy's "Doublin" so much that all those setting seem "right" to me. I'm just trying to give the music its due
instead of me inventing my own Celto-swingy-Tex -grass fiddling style.
Joe (who lives 300 miles from the nearest Irish Fiddler, but only a short hop through the internet)
# Posted on March 5th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: Choosing A Setting
Joe, were you at the North Texas this weekend? There's usually some great players there.
I love the Doublin' album -- another CD may take its place in the car CD, but it always eventually goes back in there. You can't go too wrong listening to either Paddy. (Keep in mind that Paddy Glackin is a Donegal player, though.)
Zina
# Posted on March 5th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Choosing A Setting
Joe, isolated as you are, you'll probably find it impossible to leard Irish fiddling from printed material. Learning the notes is only a tiny little fraction of the massive journey from "playing" ITM to "living" ITM. Will's advice about a constant diet of recordings is dead on, and will give you a feel for how it's supposed to sound, but won't help you learn how to MAKE those sounds. You're on the right track getting involved in these discussions - I've seen technique eloquently broken down to bite-sized morsels so refined you can almost hear it. Try to make it to festivals and workshops where you can pester ITM players for tips. I've found great players usually love to share their hard-won wisdom with an eager student and many have gone out of their way to make time to talk to me. Best to leave your fiddle in the case, though... you don't want to cross that hazy line between a "conversation" and a "lesson" unless the person you're pestering invites you to do so.
# Posted on March 5th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Choosing A Setting
Zina- I didn't make the North TX fest although Burke and Crannitch among others were there.
I'm not learning in total isolation, although close to it. I am a Scoiltrad baby and Kevin Glackin is taking good care of me.
There is a small weekly session in Lubbock hosted by the fabulous Dr. Chris Smith who teaches at Texas Tech University
and plays world class ITM tenor banjo. Altought he is very welcoming, I have been reluctant to burden their good session
with my slow fiddling. So, this winter I've been woodsheding, hoping to get up to speed. Chris' settings seem to my ear to
be very standard and therefore a great source for me.
I hope to attend Zoukfest in Taos in July - Randal Bays is the fiddle instructor and I look forward to the close up instruction
opportunity.
BTW, someone tell me - what is the protocol for these discussions? Although I started talking about settings, I'm now on to something else.
Should I have started a new discussion?
Joe
# Posted on March 5th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: Choosing A Setting
Hey Joe and anyone else likely to come visiting for the Zoukfest,
I am hoping to make it up for at least some of the Zoukfest this summer as well. We should have a thesession.org get together.
If anyone is planning on staying up in Taos, be warned, Taos in the summer is a non-tourist nightmare (i.e if you actually want to get somewhere at a particular time). The streets in the downtown area are impossible - I've sat in traffic for an hours trying to get through a very short section of road - and hotels book up fairly early. It looks like the events are going to be held at Ft. Bergwin which is outside of Taos proper, to the south. So, whatever you do, don't stay on the north side (you will have to go through downtown). There are a fair number of hotels on the south side. I can't tell if you can stay on campus, that would obviously be the best, because I suspect that it is too far to walk from any of the hotels.
This is all rather off topic and perhaps not of interest to very many, I appologize if I should have started a new thread or perhaps not have posted at all.
Sosiadh
# Posted on March 5th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Choosing A Setting
When in doubt, Joe, leave meanderings in the original thread, I'd say. Sleep on it, and if you're still keen on starting a whole new conversation just to talk about ITM related summer plans, give 'er. (That one's for you, Zina!).
# Posted on March 5th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Choosing A Setting
Heh. Gee, thanks, Kerri.
Joe, Kevin's the man for ya, then. You'll end up going Donegal for sure at this rate.
zls
# Posted on March 5th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Choosing A Setting
Based on Glackins evaluation of my natural inclinations, (I single bow alot!) Donegal seems to be the
way to go. The Donegal settings I have heard so far are very attractive and probably do-able -
at a medium to slow pace. The problem is speeding up these settings. A more slur-oriented style might
help me deal with speed issues but I just don't "feel" a heavily slurred approach. I'm having a great time
and small improvements are exciting. Because I'm new here, tell me - what styles are you guys playing?
Do you all specialize? Should this be a new discussion? For a guy from West Texas, I sure ask alot of
questions.
Joe
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Carrmuse
Re: Choosing A Setting
How'd we get back on topic?
Because I've lived in the middle of nowhere for so long, my "personal style" (such as it is) is inluenced by Thistle and Shamrock and all these cds. So the tunes I've learned off an Altan recording come out in a Donegal style, and the tunes from Coleman sound Sligo, and from Mike Rafferty, East Galway, etc. I don't think about it too much myself (except that, yes, the Donegal stuff gets singled bowed and much of it goes very fast), but when I meet other fiddlers more rooted in one style, they either wrinkle their nose at my mongrel approach, or they try to flatter me that I can play in so many styles.
Joe, the Donegal stuff is great for getting your bow speed and quick changes of direction going. This will help you play at tempo in any other style down the road. Don't force the speed, but do work on getting those quick, short bow strokes going up and down so you can play at session speed with hardly a slur. Then if you branch in to a more slurred style, it will feel easier.
Listen to a lot of Ciaran Tourish (Altan)--an underappreciated master of the Donegal fiddle.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Choosing A Setting
I've found the slurred stuff is just harder to feel. I don't know many people who've been able to nail it without a lot of thought and practice about when to slur... The style I'm working on (West Clare), my teacher often slurs right into the first beat of a measure on an upbow, which was really wierd to me.
I used to think I was naturally inclined to some kind of Scottish / East Coast or possibly Donegal fast paced single bowing style just because that's what I did. What I'm starting to do is WAAAAAAAAAAY more complicated. I'm finding it's much tougher to play slower and focus on melody than it was to play fast and focus on rhythm.
Ooh, and I used to slur to deal with speed as well, but I ended up with very boring slur patterns. I'm thinking of slurring now as a way to enhance the melody, and make certain notes pop out.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Choosing A Setting
Because so many concertina players come from sw Ireland, I have listened to that style with very few exceptions.
But I think I tend to play more often in the Sligo style, concentrating on a strong rhythm. I blame it on playing for Morris dancing for years!
So I guess you could call me one of Will's mongrels. : )
Here's a web site for all you Donegal devotees -
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6464/hmpg.html
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Charlene
Re: Choosing A Setting
Stuck here in paradise (aka middle of nowhere), I've relied mostly on Thistle and Shamrock and a stack of cds to pick up tunes, and, consequently, styles. So I tend to play tunes from Altan in a Donegal style (single bowing, triplets, not too many rolls), Coleman tunes in a Sligo style (longer bow strokes, lots of slurring, rolls, triplet runs, etc), Mike Rafferty tunes in an East Galway style (straightforward, less ornamentation--mostly rolls--but a definite bounce or lift), Bobby Casey, Jr. Crehan, and Martin Hayes tunes in a Clare style (slower, emphasizing the melody, lift), etc.
I came at all of this from several early years emulating (well, *trying* to emulate him and doing a terrible job at it) Kevin Burke (I lived in western Oregon at the time). But I probably could've saved myself years of hard work if I had started single bowing everything until I understood where to put the accents and how to phrase things. It's much harder to control those things when you're slurring notes all over the place, and it took me a long time before I could control accents and dynamics equally well up bow or down. What finally makes the slurring click is when you can change these things in the middle of a slur, going either direction. Those upbow slurs into the down beat Kerri mentions are crucial to getting lift into the tunes with almost any slurred style, and they work best when you can build emphasis onto one note or the other into the slur.
If you work at it long enough, eventually your mind quits focusing on single bows and slurs and up or down bows. You just do whatever you need to to get the sound from your head into the air above it. And then you start bowing things forwards, backwards, and inside out as you play with the phrasing, etc. Some years ago, I realized I'd broken through when I no longer had one snap answer to the question, "How do you bow that phrase?" The answer becomes, "Well, if you do it like this, it sounds like so. And if you do it this way, it sounds more like...and then you could try this, or...."
The point is, if you don't like the way a certain phrase sounds, try a different bowing approach. And when you DO really like the way a certain phrase sounds, try a different bowing approach anyway. Eventually you'll be able to bow it lots of different ways to suit your mood, the character of the tune, the speed you're playing at any given time, the people you're playing with, etc.
All this is more fun and comes easier/quicker if you play a lot with other people. Hmmm...sounds like a good excuse for a session....
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Choosing A Setting
Glad to hear you say the bit about starting with single bow strokes, Will. I think it's part of what gave me a good sense of rhythm pretty quick. Some of the beginners I hear play with so many slurs the tune comes out almost shapeless. I guess they think that since the experts do it that it's the way to start. I'm really just now learning to feel where a slur might sound good and to experiment with them. Kerri, for awhile I thought I would be going with the Donegal style as well, not because it was my favorite, but because I didn't think I'd ever be able to start hearing patterns and applying them. It sure doesn't come naturally yet, though!
I love Morris tunes, Charlene. I don't know many, but I pick a new one up every once in awhile. If I ever get the chance I'd love to play for the dancers sometime! If I'd been a more advanced fiddler when I lived in Berkeley I would have approached the local side there. Any good Morris sites on the web? Tune links?
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Choosing A Setting
One way to get used to slurring across the beat, especially from the end of one bar onto the downbeat of the next, is to do it in a jig. An easy jig to start with is My Darling Asleep.
K: D
e|fdd cAA|BAG A2 G|FGA def|gfg eag|fdd... etc.
Slur across each bar line, from e to f, from A to B, from G to F, from f to g, and from g to f again. Now I wouldn't play it this way all the time--*always* slurring would be too predictable, and it'll give a seasickness-inducing sway to the tune unless you break it up with some single bows. But as a pratice piece, this will help you get the feel for it. You can also run the slurs mostly on down bows, then switch it around and do them on up bows to test your comfort level going different directions.
Most fiddlers I've talked with tell me that at some point in their careers, they studied their bowing this closely, breaking it down into all the components, running through all the different rhythms (reels, hornpipes, jigs, slip jigs, slides, polkas, etc.), and testing all the possibilities before reassembling it and eventually running on autopilot. Some people don't like such an analytical approach, but in my book, it's an important stepping stone to more subliminal playing.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Choosing A Setting
Learning how to bow in "figure eights" was what made up my first lessons. Learning basic bowing patterns early on is a good thing, single bowing adds to the saw-away sound that beginners too often have already.
The main points to work on for a beginer should be holding the fiddle & bow correctly; I'm not saying as to go as far as classical players go, but a good bow grip helps your tone alot. Once you've got that down than work on swing & intonation. The bowing will fall into place, just learn the basic ways of bowing common figures & apply what sounds good. Never mind what some other fiddler is doing with bowing, just do what works for you.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Choosing A Setting
Brad's right--it's all too easy to play without emphasis and swing when you single bow everthing. There's a risk of producing that beginner's sound. But I'd argue that it's also possible to play with a lot of lift and swing in single bows, and starting off by trying to get it with single bows (eliminating the confusion that slurring can cause), may really work well for some people.
I also agree that ultimately you need to find what bowing works for you. But I like having a frame of reference, a "context" for my bowing that comes from having listened closely to what other (better) fiddlers were doing. It's a starting point, not an end point, a stepping stone to develop my own bowing. But I still try to pick up new ideas this way, and it helps me understand what I'm hearing when I listen to other people's playing.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Will CPT
I'm curious Bad, who did you take lessons from when you were starting out? Most of the East Coast fiddlers I've met can trace their instructional lineage back to Martin Mulvihill (sometimes through his son Brendan, or Brian Conroy), John Vesey, or another "name" player and teacher of the previous generation. It's interesting to see the circles of community and influence.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Choosing A Setting
Christine:
I'll reply to your morris dance request via e-mail so Jeremy won't have to discipline me for being off topic!
Just kidding, Jeremy. You run a very clean site and I'm sure I speak for 99% of us when I say that we all appreciate your efforts. A big thank you.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Charlene
Re: Choosing A Setting
Yes, helping me understand what I hear other people do is part of what the Cranitch/Cooper methods have helped me with. I *have* memorized the bowing on the tunes I've gotten from those books and that has really shown me what some of the possibilities are. Now when I start learning a new tune from somewhere else, I start messing with the bowing right away. And I'm going back over my "old" tunes and messing with them, too. The slowdowner software is another "stepping stone" for me to hear how stuff can be phrased.
I like the idea of being able to bow forwards backwards and inside out, eventually. When your brain finally can let go of all the instructions scrolling through it the fiddling must get a lot more fluid and fun!
Thanks to all for the ideas and comments.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Choosing A Setting
Ok, Charlene, thanks. Jtownfiddler@hotmail.com will do.
Yes, thanks Jeremy!
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: Choosing A Setting
Will, I learned from two players (mostly) one was Ronnie Gilbert she learned from James Morrison when she was a little girl. I also learned from Tony DeMarco who learned from Martin Wynn & Paddy Reynolds (I think) I learned a lot from listening to Paddy Reynolds, Andy McGann & Johnny Cronin to name a very few - sometimes I'd ask them for tips after a preformance. I was supposed to go to Patrick Orceaux but it never panned out, but he gave me a couple great pointers in a few sessions - he is probably the nicest most encouraging person I've ever met.
Mulvihill was in Philadelphia & I think he had already passed on when I started to play.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Choosing A Setting
Ronnie Gilbert's a familiar name, but I can't put a face or sound to it. James Morrison's another of those "big names" who spread the Sligo magic up and down the East coast through a horde of students who became teachers themsevles. You're fortunate.
Yeah, it drives me nuts all the great players in the NYC-Philly-Washington corridor back about 20-30 years ago. I lived 25 miles west of Independence Hall from 1966 through 1979 and managed to miss every great fiddler within a 300 mile radius. Despite working in a music store and playing in several bluegrass bands (more likely *because* of the bluegrass), I never ran into anyone who knew enough to say, "You ought to listen in at John Vesey's house on Thursday nights," or "You want to learn Irish fiddle? There's this Mulvihill guy...."
Still, I count myself lucky to have bumped into Mick Moloney's radio program in the late 1970s, and then when I moved West, a protege of Kevin Burke's in 1981.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Will CPT
Re: Choosing A Setting
Brad - second the motion on approval of Patrick Ourceau. Fiddlers in the crowd, don't miss the opportunity to take a workshop with Patrick if he comes to your town. Top quality individual, and the best workshop I ever took.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: Choosing A Setting
Ronnie Gilbert also went by Veronica McNamara, she played for feiseanna quite a bit but isn't a high profile player; I think it's more of a home hobby for her. When I met her she had broken her wrist in a car accident, I thought she played great then but she said that her playing was half of what it was before the accident. If anyone knows her let her know that I've been trying to get in touch with her but haven't had any success.
# Posted on March 6th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Choosing A Setting
I'm finding that all of the 'settings' I've found in books and recordings mean squat in a session of players that have been playing together for years.
If you are new to the music (like me) and can't make it to an established session, plan to go to a summer camp and bring *lots* of blank minidiscs...
Is Ronnie Gilbert the one who used to sing with the Weavers? That Ronnie Gilbert has lately been recording with Holly Near.
Bob
# Posted on March 11th 2002 by Laughtonb