A friend was given an instrument of the following description:
The body of a bouzouki, I think, with a fretboard measuring over 3 ft, 4 pairs of strings (GDAE tuning I assume), and MOVABLE frets.
This last bit is the puzzler because he's not sure how to set them. I would have thought every semi tone, like any other freted instrument but he did not agree, otherwise why have movable frets. He has a point.
Has anybody else come across this instrument, is it just a long necked bouzouki?
the point of moveable frets is so you can tune your instrument more acuratly. Fixed frets are a compromise, moveable frets a little better, but no frets is best
Cath, do an advanced search in Google for "lute frets" - there are about 30-odd web pages, the earlier ones of which are probably quite relevant and would give your friend some useful pointers on setting frets.
Trevor
In reply to unseen122, I believe movable fret instruments would be set up either by a craftsman or by the musician, depending on the tradition. Not sure if they do it by measuring distance or by ear against a drone pitch. With the saz, the frets are kind of like very hard rubber bands or wires that wrap right around the neck but with one of the Indian instruments (forget which) the frets are metal wires set in beeswax! So it would be a major job to get the frets positioned.
They're not using tempered scales so it's a bit different from tuning something like a piano. Everything can be tuned in reference to a single root note. Also, these traditions (M.Eastern, Indian) involve very fine pitch distinctions, so I think professional musicians often have a much more accurate sense of relative pitch than you'd normally find in Western classical or ITM.
The frets on a saz are placed in quarter tones. There are a number of tunings for it depending on the regional music you want to play. Mine is set up in three courses of strings. On some courses, they are an octave apart. There is one tutor I know of written in heavily accented English available at Lark in te Morning. I don't recall any information being given on fret placement. The maqams traditionally played in this type of music are a cross between a scale and a mode, some require half-flats and double-sharps. I have heard of players who use the saz to play western music and have simply removed the extra frets. This instrument also comes in various sizes. I've never seen the smallest one, but I've heard that you need at least a baglama size to play the quarter tones--in other words, half tones might be appropriate for the instrument you have. Also, experienced players will move the frets around for transposition purposes.
Yeah the point of movable frets is so that you can play different modes.
Tetrachords are one common use for movable frets. http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm
Has some deep stuff.
Some of the most exotic, minor tonalities can be created at times by placing a fret exactly halfway between two others. Whenever you do this, all three notes actually share an overtone. Harry Partch's "Genesis of a Music" discusses this at length and with many invectives.
Basically, you can either divide the pitch or divide the string length; since they are inversely proportional, the resulting intervals are juxtaposed from one method to the other... there's far more to learn about it online, if you're curious.
I just filed the frets off of a 5-string banjo and am attempting to make usable movable frets. So far it's not working. Maybe some sort of Velcro...
Movable frets
Movable frets
A friend was given an instrument of the following description:
The body of a bouzouki, I think, with a fretboard measuring over 3 ft, 4 pairs of strings (GDAE tuning I assume), and MOVABLE frets.
This last bit is the puzzler because he's not sure how to set them. I would have thought every semi tone, like any other freted instrument but he did not agree, otherwise why have movable frets. He has a point.
Has anybody else come across this instrument, is it just a long necked bouzouki?
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Cath
Re: Movable frets
I think it's probably a Saz.
http://sendingtransmission.tripod.com/sazinfo.html
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Movable frets
the point of moveable frets is so you can tune your instrument more acuratly. Fixed frets are a compromise, moveable frets a little better, but no frets is best
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by ...
Re: Movable frets
PP this looks about right - thanks very much.
Michael, spoken like a true viola/fiddle player
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Cath
Re: Movable frets
Even today, lutenists and viola da gamba players use movable frets. May be some useful information on a specialist early music site somewhere.
Trevor
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Movable frets
Cath, do an advanced search in Google for "lute frets" - there are about 30-odd web pages, the earlier ones of which are probably quite relevant and would give your friend some useful pointers on setting frets.
Trevor
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Movable frets
That is a cool instrument must be a killer to get those frets in the right position think about it.
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Why Bother?
Re: Movable frets
Very interesting question unseen122, does anyone know exactly how the fret position of a Saz would be worked out?
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by KS
Re: Movable frets
ok, thanks Trev, I'll tell my friend
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Cath
Re: Movable frets
In reply to unseen122, I believe movable fret instruments would be set up either by a craftsman or by the musician, depending on the tradition. Not sure if they do it by measuring distance or by ear against a drone pitch. With the saz, the frets are kind of like very hard rubber bands or wires that wrap right around the neck but with one of the Indian instruments (forget which) the frets are metal wires set in beeswax! So it would be a major job to get the frets positioned.
They're not using tempered scales so it's a bit different from tuning something like a piano. Everything can be tuned in reference to a single root note. Also, these traditions (M.Eastern, Indian) involve very fine pitch distinctions, so I think professional musicians often have a much more accurate sense of relative pitch than you'd normally find in Western classical or ITM.
Paul
# Posted on July 2nd 2004 by Paul Brennan
Re: Movable frets
http://www.worldmusicalinstruments.com/MusicalInstrumentsDetail.asp?ProductID=2491&ProductName=Baglama+Saz&CategoryName=Saz&CategoryID=86
http://www.silverbushmusic.com/saztie.html
http://home.swipnet.se/~w-35053/sazandb.htm
http://larkinthemorning.com/article.asp?AI=47&&bhcd2=1088853299
These links should help
PP
# Posted on July 2nd 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Movable frets
The frets on a saz are placed in quarter tones. There are a number of tunings for it depending on the regional music you want to play. Mine is set up in three courses of strings. On some courses, they are an octave apart. There is one tutor I know of written in heavily accented English available at Lark in te Morning. I don't recall any information being given on fret placement. The maqams traditionally played in this type of music are a cross between a scale and a mode, some require half-flats and double-sharps. I have heard of players who use the saz to play western music and have simply removed the extra frets. This instrument also comes in various sizes. I've never seen the smallest one, but I've heard that you need at least a baglama size to play the quarter tones--in other words, half tones might be appropriate for the instrument you have. Also, experienced players will move the frets around for transposition purposes.
# Posted on July 4th 2004 by Aragorn
Re: Movable frets
Yeah the point of movable frets is so that you can play different modes.
Tetrachords are one common use for movable frets.
http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm
Has some deep stuff.
Some of the most exotic, minor tonalities can be created at times by placing a fret exactly halfway between two others. Whenever you do this, all three notes actually share an overtone. Harry Partch's "Genesis of a Music" discusses this at length and with many invectives.
Basically, you can either divide the pitch or divide the string length; since they are inversely proportional, the resulting intervals are juxtaposed from one method to the other... there's far more to learn about it online, if you're curious.
I just filed the frets off of a 5-string banjo and am attempting to make usable movable frets. So far it's not working. Maybe some sort of Velcro...
# Posted on July 16th 2004 by Bad Mutha Hubbard