session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I think that all musicians start out with a love to The Music. I thought about this yesterday, actually.
When you start, you're playing the music. You decide when, where and what to play. But when it gets commercial, the music kind of plays you. It's when, where and what you play that's going to decide when, where and what you eat, sleep etc. It might be hard to remember and concentrate on what got you there in the first place.
But I think that deep down inside, everyone started with falling in love with the Music. Not the money.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
££££££ of course, but commercial musicans, more than anyone, just want to play to relieve the boredom (not necessarily ITM).
It is inevitable, when you are booked to play ITM, you start to sneak in some Scottish, and when booked to play Scottish, you sneak in as much Irish as you can.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I'm not sure if I understand what seems to be a stigma of sorts, with musicians making a living with their "craft". There have been times in which it seems that this music is regarded as sacred to some individuals that the feeding and clothing from it is blasphemy. I think anyone is truely blessed when they are able to take their talents and love, to provide for themselves. Perhaps there is some jealousy a foot. I'm glad I am able to enjoy an evening of live music.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I have to agree with debwah. I'm sure there are far more lucrative avenues upon which to sell your musical soul. Become a popstar, or backing musician. The few pro- traditional musicians I know are far from wealthy, yet they are enormously talented. We should be thankful they have stuck to their vocation, rather than be tempted to where the grass is always greener.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
My fiddle teacher took classes from a very well loved and respected musician last year at Irish Fest. She plays both fiddle and viola, has large case which houses both. Said musician was intrigued and proceeded to take her fiddle and play it. He fell in love with it. Heather asked what "make" of fiddle he has. He apparently doesn't have an expensive, handmade fiddle, makes do with a lesser instrument as he can't afford it. Heather doesn't have a handmade fiddle either, but it must have sounded better to his ear than his own. They simply aren't making the big bucks we tend to think they are.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I understand the "watering" down so to speak. But I wonder if that simply is creativity at helm. I tend to think so. I was pondering that this weekend. I just acquired Liz Carroll's Lake Effect over the wekend. It's already in sad shape as I have been playing continuously. All most all of the tunes are penned by her. SOme are a little bit more "jazzy" than others that were in the trad vein. At the end of the day, I think the creativity has enriched the genre rather than detracted.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Great CD, isn't it, Deb? Anyway, I don't think I really "get" the question -- everyone's going to have different reasons why they play music at all in the first place, so it's not like we would all have the same reasons for wanting/needing to get paid for it.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
The question is also whether we or session musicians are necessarily getting the opportunity to play the music we really want(or all of it) at sessions! Especially, if they're all like the "ideal sessions" described here.
I have learned many great tunes and arrangements which will never see the light of day in a session. Quite rightly too, in many cases, though some of these might be welcome in certain circumstances. It's only natural that musicians, especially the better ones, might wish to have additional outlets for their creativity and/or repertoire.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Creativity doesn't always enrich the tradition IMO. I can be "creative" by fusing ITM with Bulgarian, rap, or Country/Western (or all of the above), but at what point does it become just a mere hodgepodge blend--not ITM? It's like mixing spaghetti and scrambled eggs to produce something that's decidedly neither. It's creative, but does it work?
That said, I think Liz Carroll does a wonderful job balancing true creativity and loyalty to the tradtion.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
It works if enough people say it does. In the end all music is just random vibrations in the ether, signifying nothing except in the mind of the listener(s).
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I quite agree that creativity doesn't always enrich the tradition. Especially when blended with other genres. But then these tunes aren't traditional (yes?). As you pointed out jdave, Liz Carroll has balanced her creativity within the tradition.
So now, I have to ask, when are these new tunes considered part of the tradition or, are they simply considered within the trad style? I realize they (new tunes) may never make it to the session scene, but that isn't the sum total of the tradition itself. Some tunes already have, i.e. Jerry Holland's Brenda Stubberts reel.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
If I passionately loved data entry with the same rampant obsessiveness with which I live for music I don't think anybody would bother suggesting I should be doing it for free, or that data entry clerks who work for nothing are somehow more genuine, honest, and uncorrupted than those who get paid.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
(A fanciful postscript: "commercial irish folk musicians" makes it sound like there's a big warehouse somewhere where they're all packed up in styrofoam and you could call a 1-800 number to order up a couple Daithi Sproules and a set of Dannu to decorate your office.)
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Seems so, debwah, if all these threads criticising musicians who get paid are any indication. I sold my data entry soul the day I started doing it for money instead of pure love of the art.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I do tend to think that there is some hidden/unacknowledged jealousy here. The "Gee I can do that" thinking, not realizing the sacrifice to a "normal" daily life the unpaid sessioneers enjoy.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
It's an interesting thing about ITM; the commercialization of it is what led to our discovery of it, (in most cases,) we then elevate it to a sacred height where performing it or making any money with it somehow insults it's essence. I wonder if this phenomenon exists with any other ethnic music forms.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Spot on Jack! I don't know about any other ethnic music, but hasn't the artist i.e. musician, actor etc. who made his/her way historically been considered the lesser folk in society?
In numerous threads here, the advice has been given to listen to as much recording as possible, as a means to learn this tradition. Where would we learn if not partly from the "commercialization"? Sessions here in Milwaukee aren't as big an entity as else where. Not to mention that daily life responsibilities sometimes get in the way of attending said sessions.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Well, as a writer and performer of folky songs I've never heard anyone insinuate that being paid to do this is insulting to the noble tradition of people writing songs for free. Nobody asks whether Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Janis Joplin, Tracy Chapman and the ilk are some kind of degenerate financially motivated spinoff of some more legitimate form of songwriting.
The fact of the matter is people have been playing music for money, food and lodging without doing any damage to the art since music was invented. Name a musician in any genre from any time period who never took a dime (or a leg of mutton) in exchange for a melody.
I agree with you deb, that this type of criticism seems always to be tinged with pettiness and envy.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
well I would like to have more gigs than I do but I find I hate hitting the pavement to make it happen. I'd rather sit around and play. Simple.
I used to think I wasn't a workin musician because I was lousy musician, now I know it's because I'm a lazy musician....
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
is it a fair comment that the original dance masters and traveller pipers etc who travelled from village to village with the music were all 'commercial musicians' also?
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I'm definitely with you Kerri and Cath. I was going to say the same thing Cath about a priest or rabbi getting paid for their services. Of course they should! In ancient times a religious leader or shaman would have been taken care of by the tribe or village; clothed fed (there's that leg of mutton), housed. These days we have money intead. Same difference. I am definitely one of those who beleives it would be a dream come true to make money from what you love best, whether that is Irish music or painting landscapes or whatever.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I know a successful pro classical violinist (with a background in rock and jazz, so he knows a thing or two) who some years ago had to make a decision whether to buy an old Cremona fiddle or a house. The fiddle won, and he hasn't looked back since.
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Greetings.
Just for the sake of chiming in on this, many professional Irish music-ians spend many and much of their days teaching the music as well as playing at night.
There is, I think, more concern for the integrity of the music amongst the very heavily involved than might be suspected.
All the best,
Seano
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Also it might be noted that most of us would not have a steady session to go to in if there weren't a few commercial irish folk musicians being paid to host them through thick and thin.
session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I think that all musicians start out with a love to The Music. I thought about this yesterday, actually.
When you start, you're playing the music. You decide when, where and what to play. But when it gets commercial, the music kind of plays you. It's when, where and what you play that's going to decide when, where and what you eat, sleep etc. It might be hard to remember and concentrate on what got you there in the first place.
But I think that deep down inside, everyone started with falling in love with the Music. Not the money.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
££££££ of course, but commercial musicans, more than anyone, just want to play to relieve the boredom (not necessarily ITM).
It is inevitable, when you are booked to play ITM, you start to sneak in some Scottish, and when booked to play Scottish, you sneak in as much Irish as you can.
# Posted on June 28th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I'm not sure if I understand what seems to be a stigma of sorts, with musicians making a living with their "craft". There have been times in which it seems that this music is regarded as sacred to some individuals that the feeding and clothing from it is blasphemy. I think anyone is truely blessed when they are able to take their talents and love, to provide for themselves. Perhaps there is some jealousy a foot. I'm glad I am able to enjoy an evening of live music.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I have to agree with debwah. I'm sure there are far more lucrative avenues upon which to sell your musical soul. Become a popstar, or backing musician. The few pro- traditional musicians I know are far from wealthy, yet they are enormously talented. We should be thankful they have stuck to their vocation, rather than be tempted to where the grass is always greener.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
and I suspect you were attempting to spell "ulterior"
Chief Inspector Drosophila,
Flying Squad,
Spelling Police.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
My fiddle teacher took classes from a very well loved and respected musician last year at Irish Fest. She plays both fiddle and viola, has large case which houses both. Said musician was intrigued and proceeded to take her fiddle and play it. He fell in love with it. Heather asked what "make" of fiddle he has. He apparently doesn't have an expensive, handmade fiddle, makes do with a lesser instrument as he can't afford it. Heather doesn't have a handmade fiddle either, but it must have sounded better to his ear than his own. They simply aren't making the big bucks we tend to think they are.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I understand the "watering" down so to speak. But I wonder if that simply is creativity at helm. I tend to think so. I was pondering that this weekend. I just acquired Liz Carroll's Lake Effect over the wekend. It's already in sad shape as I have been playing continuously. All most all of the tunes are penned by her. SOme are a little bit more "jazzy" than others that were in the trad vein. At the end of the day, I think the creativity has enriched the genre rather than detracted.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Great CD, isn't it, Deb? Anyway, I don't think I really "get" the question -- everyone's going to have different reasons why they play music at all in the first place, so it's not like we would all have the same reasons for wanting/needing to get paid for it.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
The question is also whether we or session musicians are necessarily getting the opportunity to play the music we really want(or all of it) at sessions! Especially, if they're all like the "ideal sessions" described here.
I have learned many great tunes and arrangements which will never see the light of day in a session. Quite rightly too, in many cases, though some of these might be welcome in certain circumstances. It's only natural that musicians, especially the better ones, might wish to have additional outlets for their creativity and/or repertoire.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Creativity doesn't always enrich the tradition IMO. I can be "creative" by fusing ITM with Bulgarian, rap, or Country/Western (or all of the above), but at what point does it become just a mere hodgepodge blend--not ITM? It's like mixing spaghetti and scrambled eggs to produce something that's decidedly neither. It's creative, but does it work?
That said, I think Liz Carroll does a wonderful job balancing true creativity and loyalty to the tradtion.
-Jonathan
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by jdave
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
It works if enough people say it does. In the end all music is just random vibrations in the ether, signifying nothing except in the mind of the listener(s).
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by ScottC
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I quite agree that creativity doesn't always enrich the tradition. Especially when blended with other genres. But then these tunes aren't traditional (yes?). As you pointed out jdave, Liz Carroll has balanced her creativity within the tradition.
So now, I have to ask, when are these new tunes considered part of the tradition or, are they simply considered within the trad style? I realize they (new tunes) may never make it to the session scene, but that isn't the sum total of the tradition itself. Some tunes already have, i.e. Jerry Holland's Brenda Stubberts reel.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
If I passionately loved data entry with the same rampant obsessiveness with which I live for music I don't think anybody would bother suggesting I should be doing it for free, or that data entry clerks who work for nothing are somehow more genuine, honest, and uncorrupted than those who get paid.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
To play devil's advocate a little further, are the clerics in the wrong for making a living off of their passion?
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
(A fanciful postscript: "commercial irish folk musicians" makes it sound like there's a big warehouse somewhere where they're all packed up in styrofoam and you could call a 1-800 number to order up a couple Daithi Sproules and a set of Dannu to decorate your office.)
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Seems so, debwah, if all these threads criticising musicians who get paid are any indication. I sold my data entry soul the day I started doing it for money instead of pure love of the art.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Whooo!! I would love to order a Daithi Sproule! (to decorate anything!)
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I do tend to think that there is some hidden/unacknowledged jealousy here. The "Gee I can do that" thinking, not realizing the sacrifice to a "normal" daily life the unpaid sessioneers enjoy.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
It's an interesting thing about ITM; the commercialization of it is what led to our discovery of it, (in most cases,) we then elevate it to a sacred height where performing it or making any money with it somehow insults it's essence. I wonder if this phenomenon exists with any other ethnic music forms.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Spot on Jack! I don't know about any other ethnic music, but hasn't the artist i.e. musician, actor etc. who made his/her way historically been considered the lesser folk in society?
In numerous threads here, the advice has been given to listen to as much recording as possible, as a means to learn this tradition. Where would we learn if not partly from the "commercialization"? Sessions here in Milwaukee aren't as big an entity as else where. Not to mention that daily life responsibilities sometimes get in the way of attending said sessions.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Well, as a writer and performer of folky songs I've never heard anyone insinuate that being paid to do this is insulting to the noble tradition of people writing songs for free. Nobody asks whether Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Janis Joplin, Tracy Chapman and the ilk are some kind of degenerate financially motivated spinoff of some more legitimate form of songwriting.
The fact of the matter is people have been playing music for money, food and lodging without doing any damage to the art since music was invented. Name a musician in any genre from any time period who never took a dime (or a leg of mutton) in exchange for a melody.
I agree with you deb, that this type of criticism seems always to be tinged with pettiness and envy.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
well I would like to have more gigs than I do but I find I hate hitting the pavement to make it happen. I'd rather sit around and play. Simple.
I used to think I wasn't a workin musician because I was lousy musician, now I know it's because I'm a lazy musician....
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
is it a fair comment that the original dance masters and traveller pipers etc who travelled from village to village with the music were all 'commercial musicians' also?
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by mackers
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I'm definitely with you Kerri and Cath. I was going to say the same thing Cath about a priest or rabbi getting paid for their services. Of course they should! In ancient times a religious leader or shaman would have been taken care of by the tribe or village; clothed fed (there's that leg of mutton), housed. These days we have money intead. Same difference. I am definitely one of those who beleives it would be a dream come true to make money from what you love best, whether that is Irish music or painting landscapes or whatever.
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by Andee
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I was a "so called" pro for years. I packed it in, got a proper job and could afford a decent instrument.R
# Posted on June 29th 2004 by ...
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
I know a successful pro classical violinist (with a background in rock and jazz, so he knows a thing or two) who some years ago had to make a decision whether to buy an old Cremona fiddle or a house. The fiddle won, and he hasn't looked back since.
Trevor
Oh, and he has a house now
# Posted on June 30th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Greetings.
Just for the sake of chiming in on this, many professional Irish music-ians spend many and much of their days teaching the music as well as playing at night.
There is, I think, more concern for the integrity of the music amongst the very heavily involved than might be suspected.
All the best,
Seano
# Posted on June 30th 2004 by Sean O'Hare
Re: session musicians and commercial irish folk musicians
Also it might be noted that most of us would not have a steady session to go to in if there weren't a few commercial irish folk musicians being paid to host them through thick and thin.
# Posted on July 1st 2004 by Kerri Brown