The more I play this music (after some 18 years), the more I realize how seat-of-the-pants it is...that there are no "rules" except to do whatever makes it sound "right." This is particularly true, in my experience on fiddle, with bowing. So I have a question, a survey of sorts. How many of you fiddlers out there play your scratch triplets down-up-down, how many do it up-down-up, and how many (few?) can do it either way, with equal effectiveness?
The reason I ask is that certain tunes would clearly work better if I could do the up-down-up triplets as well as the other direction. Anyone have any experience with this, and any tips on how to make 'em work up-down-up? After years of cracking them out one way, it's not easy making the switch...is it worth it?
Will
That's an interesting question.... I always do down-up-down, and it never even occurred to me that there was another option. Not sure what that says about me, but anyway, there it is.
For a long time, I didn't WANT to believe there was another way to do triplets.....
A few fiddlers actually find it more comfortable to do them up-down-up....maybe if you're born in the southern hemisphere? And I know one or two of the wordclass people can do them either way. It's funny, because the up-down-up thing works for me easily when I'm playing hornpipes or jigs and there's a triplet leading to something else, but that's less percussive and more melodic than the typical scratch triplet. Still, should it be that hard to tighten it down into a crisper, punchier sound? It hasn't worked yet for me, despite years of playing them just fine down-up-down.
So, jjohnson, are there any tunes that give you bowing fits because of where the triplets fall? I'm struggling now with "Mairtin O'Connor's Flying Clog," a reel written by Phil Cunningham, which has at least one spot with back-to-back scratch triplets (do-able on accordion, not so on fiddle for me).
I was taught to do them down-up-down but I often play them both ways. I don't put as much thought into my bowing as others do though.
Thinking about it..
If I play play the triplet coming off a lower (pitched)string i'll play the triplet up-down-up. (see ex.1) However if it's coming from the same string or a higher string I play it down-up-down.(Ex.2)
Thanks Brad. That's exactly the kind of distinction I've been dealing with, tho I can usually tweak the bowing to set up the triplet ok as down-up-down. I don't think much about bowing either, until someone else asks me to explain how to get through a certain passage.
So--are your u-d-u triplets as crisp as your d-u-d ones? I mean, do you use them without concern that one will sound decidedly different than the other?
It helps to know that you don't think about it much, because that suggests that they feel pretty similar when you play them, which gives me something to shoot for (since I know what one feels like in one direction).
Thanks!
Will
Yeah they're pretty much the same in sound (To me anyway) I really try not to overflick out the triplet to create a moment of "KTCH" (if you know what I mean) but I try to keep it so you hear the note three times.
For practicing the dud udu.... bowing I just practice hornpipes with big "runs" in them "Sweep's" or "Harvest Home". Also Scottish Music uses it alot with triplet runs in strathspeys
Remember that back to back Triplets on the Box represent alot of the same problems as bowing does. they have the Pull Push Pull if playing a straight triplet. So it's all just a matter of practice I guess.
~Brad
i have always really played my triplets up-down-up as they usually lie after a slurred down bow of two quavers. ive never noticed a differerence if i need to play them down-up-down, but i think it deprends on the wya you leanr them and get into the way of playing them, maybe im just lucky!
if your struggling with back to back sets of triplets, try playing six notes of same length back to back, wit out accent and rhythm, and eventually speed them up, and split them into two, this is a usefull excercise and should help-i hope!
At the risk of being obvious, I'm not talking about triplets in the sense of a run of notes in a hornpipe, or the melodic triplets we might use in a jig or reel. I have not trouble playing those in any bow direction. I'm talking about percussive triplets: |AF (3FFF DF (3FFF|, particularly at speed and with the punch that a Tommy Peoples gives them, or at least the crispness of Martin Hayes or Eileen Ivers. These are very different than the triplet you might use to get from point a to point b in melody: |(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|.
Will
I try not to play those kind of trebles, but I know what your talking about. It's the same theory, just a hell of a lot faster.
To get yer mind going on it try playing multi note trebles like
(3ABA (3ABA might get the fingers going. Or try to break them with a grace that way you can play both d-u-d without them bleeding together. It all comes back to the opening line in this discussion there isn't any rights or wrongs just what sounds good.
~Brad
Tommy Peoples does a funny thing with his trebles that give him his sound. From what I hear he lets all his fingers off his bow grip save the index & thumb then flicks the bow with his ring finger & lets the bow do a spizzacotto three quick times then goes back to his normal grip. He's the only person in the world who does this kind of a thing. That's how he gets them to sound so percussive
Brad, thanks again for your input on this. I do both the percussive triplets and the lighter ones, depending on mood and setting, and I like having both in my bag of tricks. The one problem with doing "what sounds good" is that once I mastered the d-u-d triplets, I stuck with them, never trying them u-d-u except for the non-percussive triplets. This works for 90 percent of the tunes out there, and I enjoy scattering triplets around in unusual places, or with different combinations of notes. But now it's time to buckle down and get them going just as crisply u-d-u. At least if I ever want to explore in detail Martin Hayes' versions of Crooked Road to Dublin or Foxhunter's Reel. Your tips will help.
Will
yeah, i knew what u meant when you said scrath triplets, but i didnt make mayself very clear, in speading up the notes i meant into a percussive rhythym -sorry, that word is difficult on the keys!:( and yes, a lot of it is in the wrist action. Letting nearly all th fingers off the bow, without dropping it if possible does help but canend up being scrappy. i would still suggest starting slow, like everything, you have to start somehwere!
I was just watching a very good Scottish fiddler name of Janel from Ft. Collins, and she does her triplets (both up and down) by almost literally throwing the bow up or down hard at the beginning of the triplet, and then working with the momentum.
The cat-sneeze triplets have been giving me what-for as I've been getting better and faster, they don't seem to translate to faster as easily as everything else. I tried Janel's "throwing" technique, and it worked for me going down, but not as well going up.
Oh, and PS -- my first teacher Michelle Huber gets to study under Martin Hayes about every year at the Valley of the Moon fiddle camp, and he IS a stickler about being able to do the triplets both ways!
Yeah, I play with another fiddler who came back from Valley of the Moon swooning over everyone's bi-directional triplets. So I'm working on them, but I've already got a bad bowing shoulder and this probably won't help (even if I do keep all the motion in the hand).
That "throwing" technique sounds a little extreme. I watched Eileen Ivers and Sean Smyth at close range once and was amazed at how much sound they got with an absolute minimum of motion--just a twitch of the fingers holding the bow. And in Eileen's case that was just a thumb and index finger on one tune (Maid at the Spinning Wheel). So that's what I aimed for ever since, and it did help my triplets become more crisp and defined.
I really appreciate so much thoughtful input from so many people. I recommend this site to lots of folks, and it's great to see the circle of community grow.
Thanks!
Good grief, Will -- I always look for your posts, both here and on the other lists. You always have something good to say (and learn from!).
I don't mean to misrepresent the way Janel plays -- her triplet IS very short, but she does start with a real definite throwing motion, so much so that my husband even noticed it. She's a lovely player, and also has done lots of VOM work...
Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
The more I play this music (after some 18 years), the more I realize how seat-of-the-pants it is...that there are no "rules" except to do whatever makes it sound "right." This is particularly true, in my experience on fiddle, with bowing. So I have a question, a survey of sorts. How many of you fiddlers out there play your scratch triplets down-up-down, how many do it up-down-up, and how many (few?) can do it either way, with equal effectiveness?
The reason I ask is that certain tunes would clearly work better if I could do the up-down-up triplets as well as the other direction. Anyone have any experience with this, and any tips on how to make 'em work up-down-up? After years of cracking them out one way, it's not easy making the switch...is it worth it?
Will
# Posted on July 26th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
That's an interesting question.... I always do down-up-down, and it never even occurred to me that there was another option. Not sure what that says about me, but anyway, there it is.
# Posted on July 27th 2001 by jjohnson
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
For a long time, I didn't WANT to believe there was another way to do triplets.....
A few fiddlers actually find it more comfortable to do them up-down-up....maybe if you're born in the southern hemisphere? And I know one or two of the wordclass people can do them either way. It's funny, because the up-down-up thing works for me easily when I'm playing hornpipes or jigs and there's a triplet leading to something else, but that's less percussive and more melodic than the typical scratch triplet. Still, should it be that hard to tighten it down into a crisper, punchier sound? It hasn't worked yet for me, despite years of playing them just fine down-up-down.
So, jjohnson, are there any tunes that give you bowing fits because of where the triplets fall? I'm struggling now with "Mairtin O'Connor's Flying Clog," a reel written by Phil Cunningham, which has at least one spot with back-to-back scratch triplets (do-able on accordion, not so on fiddle for me).
Thanks,
Will
# Posted on July 27th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
I was taught to do them down-up-down but I often play them both ways. I don't put as much thought into my bowing as others do though.
Thinking about it..
If I play play the triplet coming off a lower (pitched)string i'll play the triplet up-down-up. (see ex.1) However if it's coming from the same string or a higher string I play it down-up-down.(Ex.2)
T:Treble Bow Examples
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:C
"Ex.1" uE-A(3vAuAvA z4 | "Ex.2" uevA (3uAvAuA z4|]
This looks like greek, but ABC2Win can process this to be a very clear example.
~Brad
# Posted on July 28th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
Thanks Brad. That's exactly the kind of distinction I've been dealing with, tho I can usually tweak the bowing to set up the triplet ok as down-up-down. I don't think much about bowing either, until someone else asks me to explain how to get through a certain passage.
So--are your u-d-u triplets as crisp as your d-u-d ones? I mean, do you use them without concern that one will sound decidedly different than the other?
It helps to know that you don't think about it much, because that suggests that they feel pretty similar when you play them, which gives me something to shoot for (since I know what one feels like in one direction).
Thanks!
Will
# Posted on July 28th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
Yeah they're pretty much the same in sound (To me anyway) I really try not to overflick out the triplet to create a moment of "KTCH" (if you know what I mean) but I try to keep it so you hear the note three times.
For practicing the dud udu.... bowing I just practice hornpipes with big "runs" in them "Sweep's" or "Harvest Home". Also Scottish Music uses it alot with triplet runs in strathspeys
Remember that back to back Triplets on the Box represent alot of the same problems as bowing does. they have the Pull Push Pull if playing a straight triplet. So it's all just a matter of practice I guess.
~Brad
# Posted on July 29th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
i have always really played my triplets up-down-up as they usually lie after a slurred down bow of two quavers. ive never noticed a differerence if i need to play them down-up-down, but i think it deprends on the wya you leanr them and get into the way of playing them, maybe im just lucky!
# Posted on July 29th 2001 by *weescottishfiddler*
if your struggling with back to back sets of triplets, try playing six notes of same length back to back, wit out accent and rhythm, and eventually speed them up, and split them into two, this is a usefull excercise and should help-i hope!
# Posted on July 29th 2001 by *weescottishfiddler*
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
At the risk of being obvious, I'm not talking about triplets in the sense of a run of notes in a hornpipe, or the melodic triplets we might use in a jig or reel. I have not trouble playing those in any bow direction. I'm talking about percussive triplets: |AF (3FFF DF (3FFF|, particularly at speed and with the punch that a Tommy Peoples gives them, or at least the crispness of Martin Hayes or Eileen Ivers. These are very different than the triplet you might use to get from point a to point b in melody: |(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|.
Will
# Posted on July 29th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
I try not to play those kind of trebles, but I know what your talking about. It's the same theory, just a hell of a lot faster.
To get yer mind going on it try playing multi note trebles like
(3ABA (3ABA might get the fingers going. Or try to break them with a grace that way you can play both d-u-d without them bleeding together. It all comes back to the opening line in this discussion there isn't any rights or wrongs just what sounds good.
~Brad
# Posted on July 29th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Tommy Peoples does a funny thing with his trebles that give him his sound. From what I hear he lets all his fingers off his bow grip save the index & thumb then flicks the bow with his ring finger & lets the bow do a spizzacotto three quick times then goes back to his normal grip. He's the only person in the world who does this kind of a thing. That's how he gets them to sound so percussive
# Posted on July 29th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
Brad, thanks again for your input on this. I do both the percussive triplets and the lighter ones, depending on mood and setting, and I like having both in my bag of tricks. The one problem with doing "what sounds good" is that once I mastered the d-u-d triplets, I stuck with them, never trying them u-d-u except for the non-percussive triplets. This works for 90 percent of the tunes out there, and I enjoy scattering triplets around in unusual places, or with different combinations of notes. But now it's time to buckle down and get them going just as crisply u-d-u. At least if I ever want to explore in detail Martin Hayes' versions of Crooked Road to Dublin or Foxhunter's Reel. Your tips will help.
Will
# Posted on July 30th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
yeah, i knew what u meant when you said scrath triplets, but i didnt make mayself very clear, in speading up the notes i meant into a percussive rhythym -sorry, that word is difficult on the keys!:( and yes, a lot of it is in the wrist action. Letting nearly all th fingers off the bow, without dropping it if possible does help but canend up being scrappy. i would still suggest starting slow, like everything, you have to start somehwere!
# Posted on July 31st 2001 by *weescottishfiddler*
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
I was just watching a very good Scottish fiddler name of Janel from Ft. Collins, and she does her triplets (both up and down) by almost literally throwing the bow up or down hard at the beginning of the triplet, and then working with the momentum.
The cat-sneeze triplets have been giving me what-for as I've been getting better and faster, they don't seem to translate to faster as easily as everything else. I tried Janel's "throwing" technique, and it worked for me going down, but not as well going up.
Just another two cents!
Zina
# Posted on August 12th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
Oh, and PS -- my first teacher Michelle Huber gets to study under Martin Hayes about every year at the Valley of the Moon fiddle camp, and he IS a stickler about being able to do the triplets both ways!
zls
# Posted on August 12th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
Yeah, I play with another fiddler who came back from Valley of the Moon swooning over everyone's bi-directional triplets. So I'm working on them, but I've already got a bad bowing shoulder and this probably won't help (even if I do keep all the motion in the hand).
That "throwing" technique sounds a little extreme. I watched Eileen Ivers and Sean Smyth at close range once and was amazed at how much sound they got with an absolute minimum of motion--just a twitch of the fingers holding the bow. And in Eileen's case that was just a thumb and index finger on one tune (Maid at the Spinning Wheel). So that's what I aimed for ever since, and it did help my triplets become more crisp and defined.
I really appreciate so much thoughtful input from so many people. I recommend this site to lots of folks, and it's great to see the circle of community grow.
Thanks!
# Posted on August 15th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Bowed or Scratch Triplets on Fiddle
Good grief, Will -- I always look for your posts, both here and on the other lists. You always have something good to say (and learn from!).
I don't mean to misrepresent the way Janel plays -- her triplet IS very short, but she does start with a real definite throwing motion, so much so that my husband even noticed it. She's a lovely player, and also has done lots of VOM work...
Zina
# Posted on August 16th 2001 by Zina Lee