Don't worry, this has nothing to do with sex...to my knowledge!
I'm on about fiddling here...oh no wait, that's just as bad...
Anyway, I'm attempting to teach myself the fiddle. I've come to the conclusion I need lessons. Until the day I'm not too lazy to organise some though, can you guys satisfy my curiosity?
I *thought* you had the four strings - GDAE, and on them you have three notes you play - e.g, on the D string you have E, F and G. And occasionally to make things easier if you like you can play with your fourth finger which will produce the note of the next open string up...with me so far?
Then I find out about 'positioning'!? Which as far as I can gather is where, say for third position, you use your first finger where your third finger would normally be? So on the D string you'd play G with your first finger and a bunch of other notes with your others.
What's the point of this? Why not just use the other strings? And as for sixth position...is there even room! I am confused.
But, the reason why classical violinists use higher positions is largely for tone control. An 'F' played higher on the G-string sounds a little different than an 'F' played on the D-string. So, by changing where on the strings that the notes are played, a classical violinist can get more "color" to their tone.
Also, many classical scores require long passages of quickly played notes (even faster than most reels, and for longer) and by playing in higher positions, the notes are closer together and easier to play faster.
Fiddlers generally don't worry about any of it, and rarely leave first position (except maybe on the E-string). Fiddlers LIKE the sound of open strings which most violinists say are "too harsh".
Third position is very useful for certain tunes where the first position fingering might be a bit awkward. Two tunes which spring to mind are the Red Crow and Tommy's Tarbukas where I nip up to third for a couple of bars and it makes the whole thing easier to play and gives a nice dynamic slide down back to first position.
I play MacPherson's Lament in third position so I can use the G as a continuous drone in the B part. The Ashokan Farewell and For Ireland I'd not tell her name also require third position on the E string.
There's quite a few Scottish tunes that require higher positions but they are still in the minority. Certainly, you should never go "up there" just for the sake of it or to "show off". Our kind of music sounds much better in the first position.
I suppose we'd be born with 6 fingers if we were meant to play Moving Cloud and Sean sa Cheo reels on the fiddle! Seriously though I can never execute high C effectively just sliding up the little finger and maybe there is some merit in learning how to change positions for these types of tunes.
Until you are competent and confident in first position don't do any more than think about higher positions. Many fiddlers never use higher positions but as mentioned above they can be useful. If you are a fan of Scott Skinner they will be essential.
John
If you encounter a tune that requires positions, try to fake it at first (middle-bit of second part of "Coast of Austria can be played an octave lower, no bother).
I have, unfortunately, met fiddlers who uses positions because they can, not necessarily because they need to...but they are few and far between
As the others have said, you won't need higher positions unless you get into Scottish fiddling, and even then, only sometimes. But enjoy the bright, honest sound of the open strings any time.
Hi Nat,
Second the above motions --- it's too early for you to be trying positions above 1st, and unless you get into certain types of Scottish tunes (or a couple of O'Carolan tunes, which can call for 3rd position on the E string) you won't need them.
To answer your last question, yes, there's room, even for seventh position! But you have to get way up the fingerboard, and at that height you don't use all of your fingers, you just rock two of them back and forth to get all four tones. Only necessary for rare showoff music; save your energy for more useful skills!
Later, if you get into laments and slow airs, you may find the ability to pop up into 3rd to get a mellower tone for certain notes is useful --- but that's rare and you can make that call when you get there.
Do get a decent teacher, or at least a couple of good beginners' books, though, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel in learning things slowly when a teacher could give you a leg up. Good luck!
Sara
A few years ago (before I got into ITM) I attended a classical string workshop as a cellist. The tutor spent the best part of half an hour teaching the violinists (most of them quite good orchestral players) how to play the open E with a decent tone. She pointed out that the ability to play cleanly on the open E was a sign of good bow and tone control.
It was obvious from the start that most of the violinists were frightened to death of playing the open E and had almost always played that note as a fingered note on the A string. I suspect this habit had been drummed into them from their earliest days by well-meaning teachers and orchestral conductors. In contrast, most ITM fiddlers (those past the beginners stage) produce a good tone on the open E. Cellists, BTW, don't have this hang-up so much with their open top string (the A).
There are one or two occasions in ITM fiddle playing when it may be convenient and easier to play the E with the 4th finger (pinky) on the A-string. This typically happens if you're going up to the E from below, and then straight back down again, particularly when the E is an unaccented note, as in "dedc", and might be too obtrusive as an open string in that context.
Regarding "positions", it is rare in ITM that you need to go out of the 1st position, but there is in fact a small handful of tunes in O'Neill where it may be necessary. However, what you usually get is nothing higher than a high "c" which should be reachable (with practice) without leaving the first position. A useful technique to get this reach (not "stretch"!) is to shift the thumb of the left hand slightly down the neck towards the bridge so that it is more nearly opposite the 2nd finger. This gives a more balanced hand. It is also a technique that cellists use. It may also help for some players to bring the left elbow a little more to the right, but that depends an individual anatomy. Whatever means you use to get this reach to the high "c", there shouldn't be any sensation of strain.
Although you can go through your life happily playing the fiddle without ever leaving the 1st position I think it is still useful to do some position training work, because it loosens up and relaxes the hand and fingers and gives more confidence.
I've been starting to try and work on the postitional stuff. Mainly because I heard a couple of folks play a version of "Niel Gow's Lament for the Death of his Second Wife" which was stunning, and used the positions quite a bit. And other slow airs too - the tonal qualities of the each note seem more important in slow airs.
I'm finding it easier than I used to, mainly I think 'cos I've been playing along with guitarists in strange keys (e.g. not in concert pitch),
and then I'm forced to avoid all open strings, which seems to be a transferrable skill. Still bloody hard to keep intonation solid without reference to a backup player or open strings... I don't know whether I'll get there.
So I guess playing tunes in unusual keys is a good starting point, and useful in its own right. I found that I really started to enjoy some of these keys, e.g. C minor, great with a drone on the G string.
[back into sporadic lurk mode... it's the summer, and thesession has definitely taken a back seat in my life!]
Hi Rog,
Agreed about Neil Gow's lament! That got me back into using 3rd position a bit, especially to get the resulting mellow D in the first bit. Also Aly Bain does a gorgeous version of My Lily where in the third repetition of the tune he pops it up an octave and plays it in 3rd and 5th, mostly on the E string. The tone quality he gets brings me to tears every time. (D^%$ it, I want to play like that!) Of course, I'm a total sucker for a well-played slow air. ;)
Sara
The problem of solid intonation in a key where you can't refer to open strings reminds me of a relevant situation in an orchestral rehearsal a few weeks ago.
The first violins had to play an incredibly high passage on the E string in the top third of the fingerboard (pretty close to the end of the fingerboard in fact). Inevitably, only one or two players got the notes accurately and everyone else were anything up to a half-tone either side - so we had a screechy splurge of sound. The conductor, a professional string player himself, told them not to look at their fingers but to think of the notes and hear them in their mind. It worked. All six players then played that passage perfectly in tune. A bit of Zen, I suppose. The same technique can be used in the lower positions where there are unaccustomed notes to be played.
Trevor
Wow... Trevor, I think you've just solved my problem on that version of My Lily! (I can only get the notes accurately on about the third go round, and it's been driving me nuts.) Very Zen, yes. Thanks!
*whack*
(That's the keisaku. *grin*)
Sara
Sorry. Don't mean to be obscure! The keisaku is the cricket-bat-like thing the Zen master whacks his students over the head with. The students bow to thank him for the whack, too.
*bow*
Sara
as rzaikoski,michael,geoff,john etc have all said,you don't need it in this music on the whole.
re trevor's open string experiences,it's generally true that orchestral vln players are afraid of open strings but we viola players,a much superior breed altogether,(as i'm always banging on about) use them much more often-it gives a lot more resonance to yr playing and helps with the intonantion too.
but if you're just starting the fiddle,fiddlefantastic,don't give positions a second or even a first thought.
I'm trying some new positions these days because first (or as some would say "missionary") position has started to feel like the same old tired routine. When I play by myself I get pretty kinky - I use all kinds of fetishy key changes and I'm learning some pretty sado-masochistic tunes. By experimenting I'm rediscovering the excitement I felt when my fiddle and I first got together.
Despite all this I still think 8 out of 10 positions that serious enthusiasts will tell you about are just for show, best left to acrobats and contortionists.
We've been rehearsing for our first orchestral concert, and , taking the viola home, I experimented with other positions for some awkward string changes, third position was a great help, but as Trevor said, the unaccustomed position meant a terrible sound, until I just did it without worrying so much,very Zen. I've tried in some traditional music, but am trying to use my pinky if necessary, just to make it stronger, after years of neglect.
Thanks for a great discussion, yours Worzel
Sometimes it's easier to reach the C on the E-string by sliding the whole hand one semitone to 2nd position. Makes tunes like "Trim the Velvet" much easier when the only note outside first position is the C on the E-string.
1st position : on the E-string, finger 1 plays the F#, finger 2 the G, finger 3 the A, finger 4 the B. The C is now out of range, and a 4th finger stretch may not be clean, and produce a little whine.
2nd position : on the E-string, finger 1 plays the G, finger 2 the A, finger 3 the B, finger 4 the C. Now it's much easier to play B-C-B etc.
Hey while we're on this topic, does anybody here play "Kimmel's Fancy"? Care to tell me how it's done? It's a monster 7 part hornpipe recorded by Pierre Schryer and Dermott Byrne. 3 of the 7 parts are in 3rd, 2 parts are 1/2 in third and 1/2 in first, and 1 part is in 2nd, as far as I can tell. If anybody plays this I'd like to hear exactly when and where and why you switch to third. Maybe I will post it later on for sport.
Positions
Positions
Don't worry, this has nothing to do with sex...to my knowledge!
I'm on about fiddling here...oh no wait, that's just as bad...
Anyway, I'm attempting to teach myself the fiddle. I've come to the conclusion I need lessons. Until the day I'm not too lazy to organise some though, can you guys satisfy my curiosity?
I *thought* you had the four strings - GDAE, and on them you have three notes you play - e.g, on the D string you have E, F and G. And occasionally to make things easier if you like you can play with your fourth finger which will produce the note of the next open string up...with me so far?
Then I find out about 'positioning'!? Which as far as I can gather is where, say for third position, you use your first finger where your third finger would normally be? So on the D string you'd play G with your first finger and a bunch of other notes with your others.
What's the point of this? Why not just use the other strings? And as for sixth position...is there even room! I am confused.
Thanks for reading and being patient
Nat xxx
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by fiddlefantastic
Re: Positions
Fiddlers rarely use the higher positions.
But, the reason why classical violinists use higher positions is largely for tone control. An 'F' played higher on the G-string sounds a little different than an 'F' played on the D-string. So, by changing where on the strings that the notes are played, a classical violinist can get more "color" to their tone.
Also, many classical scores require long passages of quickly played notes (even faster than most reels, and for longer) and by playing in higher positions, the notes are closer together and easier to play faster.
Fiddlers generally don't worry about any of it, and rarely leave first position (except maybe on the E-string). Fiddlers LIKE the sound of open strings which most violinists say are "too harsh".
# Posted on June 14th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Positions
Rest assured fiddlefantastic. Possitions? You don't need to go there.
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by ...
Re: Positions
Third position is very useful for certain tunes where the first position fingering might be a bit awkward. Two tunes which spring to mind are the Red Crow and Tommy's Tarbukas where I nip up to third for a couple of bars and it makes the whole thing easier to play and gives a nice dynamic slide down back to first position.
I play MacPherson's Lament in third position so I can use the G as a continuous drone in the B part. The Ashokan Farewell and For Ireland I'd not tell her name also require third position on the E string.
Generally though you won't really need it.
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Positions
There's quite a few Scottish tunes that require higher positions but they are still in the minority. Certainly, you should never go "up there" just for the sake of it or to "show off". Our kind of music sounds much better in the first position.
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Positions
I suppose we'd be born with 6 fingers if we were meant to play Moving Cloud and Sean sa Cheo reels on the fiddle! Seriously though I can never execute high C effectively just sliding up the little finger and maybe there is some merit in learning how to change positions for these types of tunes.
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Bannerman
Re: Positions
Until you are competent and confident in first position don't do any more than think about higher positions. Many fiddlers never use higher positions but as mentioned above they can be useful. If you are a fan of Scott Skinner they will be essential.
John
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by rosenun
Re: Positions
If you encounter a tune that requires positions, try to fake it at first (middle-bit of second part of "Coast of Austria can be played an octave lower, no bother).
I have, unfortunately, met fiddlers who uses positions because they can, not necessarily because they need to...but they are few and far between
Snorre
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by snorre
Re: Positions
As the others have said, you won't need higher positions unless you get into Scottish fiddling, and even then, only sometimes. But enjoy the bright, honest sound of the open strings any time.
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by fiddlefingers
Re: Positions
Thank ye!
No danger of me trying to show off, lol! If I don't have to do it, I won't!
I thought it'd be that classical lot who came up with this, fiddlers seem to be far more sensible thank goodness :D I can stop panicking now...
Thanks again!
Nat xxx
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by fiddlefantastic
Re: Positions
Hi Nat,
Second the above motions --- it's too early for you to be trying positions above 1st, and unless you get into certain types of Scottish tunes (or a couple of O'Carolan tunes, which can call for 3rd position on the E string) you won't need them.
To answer your last question, yes, there's room, even for seventh position! But you have to get way up the fingerboard, and at that height you don't use all of your fingers, you just rock two of them back and forth to get all four tones. Only necessary for rare showoff music; save your energy for more useful skills!
Later, if you get into laments and slow airs, you may find the ability to pop up into 3rd to get a mellower tone for certain notes is useful --- but that's rare and you can make that call when you get there.
Do get a decent teacher, or at least a couple of good beginners' books, though, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel in learning things slowly when a teacher could give you a leg up. Good luck!
Sara
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by sara g
Re: Positions
Don't you love crossposting... ;)
Sara
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by sara g
Re: Positions
A few years ago (before I got into ITM) I attended a classical string workshop as a cellist. The tutor spent the best part of half an hour teaching the violinists (most of them quite good orchestral players) how to play the open E with a decent tone. She pointed out that the ability to play cleanly on the open E was a sign of good bow and tone control.
It was obvious from the start that most of the violinists were frightened to death of playing the open E and had almost always played that note as a fingered note on the A string. I suspect this habit had been drummed into them from their earliest days by well-meaning teachers and orchestral conductors. In contrast, most ITM fiddlers (those past the beginners stage) produce a good tone on the open E. Cellists, BTW, don't have this hang-up so much with their open top string (the A).
There are one or two occasions in ITM fiddle playing when it may be convenient and easier to play the E with the 4th finger (pinky) on the A-string. This typically happens if you're going up to the E from below, and then straight back down again, particularly when the E is an unaccented note, as in "dedc", and might be too obtrusive as an open string in that context.
Regarding "positions", it is rare in ITM that you need to go out of the 1st position, but there is in fact a small handful of tunes in O'Neill where it may be necessary. However, what you usually get is nothing higher than a high "c" which should be reachable (with practice) without leaving the first position. A useful technique to get this reach (not "stretch"!) is to shift the thumb of the left hand slightly down the neck towards the bridge so that it is more nearly opposite the 2nd finger. This gives a more balanced hand. It is also a technique that cellists use. It may also help for some players to bring the left elbow a little more to the right, but that depends an individual anatomy. Whatever means you use to get this reach to the high "c", there shouldn't be any sensation of strain.
Although you can go through your life happily playing the fiddle without ever leaving the 1st position I think it is still useful to do some position training work, because it loosens up and relaxes the hand and fingers and gives more confidence.
Trevor
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Positions
I've been starting to try and work on the postitional stuff. Mainly because I heard a couple of folks play a version of "Niel Gow's Lament for the Death of his Second Wife" which was stunning, and used the positions quite a bit. And other slow airs too - the tonal qualities of the each note seem more important in slow airs.
I'm finding it easier than I used to, mainly I think 'cos I've been playing along with guitarists in strange keys (e.g. not in concert pitch), and then I'm forced to avoid all open strings, which seems to be a transferrable skill. Still bloody hard to keep intonation solid without reference to a backup player or open strings... I don't know whether I'll get there.
So I guess playing tunes in unusual keys is a good starting point, and useful in its own right. I found that I really started to enjoy some of these keys, e.g. C minor, great with a drone on the G string.
[back into sporadic lurk mode... it's the summer, and thesession has definitely taken a back seat in my life!]
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by rog
Re: Positions
Hi Rog,
Agreed about Neil Gow's lament! That got me back into using 3rd position a bit, especially to get the resulting mellow D in the first bit. Also Aly Bain does a gorgeous version of My Lily where in the third repetition of the tune he pops it up an octave and plays it in 3rd and 5th, mostly on the E string. The tone quality he gets brings me to tears every time. (D^%$ it, I want to play like that!) Of course, I'm a total sucker for a well-played slow air. ;)
Sara
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by sara g
Re: Positions
The problem of solid intonation in a key where you can't refer to open strings reminds me of a relevant situation in an orchestral rehearsal a few weeks ago.
The first violins had to play an incredibly high passage on the E string in the top third of the fingerboard (pretty close to the end of the fingerboard in fact). Inevitably, only one or two players got the notes accurately and everyone else were anything up to a half-tone either side - so we had a screechy splurge of sound. The conductor, a professional string player himself, told them not to look at their fingers but to think of the notes and hear them in their mind. It worked. All six players then played that passage perfectly in tune. A bit of Zen, I suppose. The same technique can be used in the lower positions where there are unaccustomed notes to be played.
Trevor
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Positions
Wow... Trevor, I think you've just solved my problem on that version of My Lily! (I can only get the notes accurately on about the third go round, and it's been driving me nuts.) Very Zen, yes. Thanks!
*whack*
(That's the keisaku. *grin*)
Sara
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by sara g
Re: Positions
Sorry. Don't mean to be obscure! The keisaku is the cricket-bat-like thing the Zen master whacks his students over the head with. The students bow to thank him for the whack, too.
*bow*
Sara
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by sara g
Re: Positions
as rzaikoski,michael,geoff,john etc have all said,you don't need it in this music on the whole.
re trevor's open string experiences,it's generally true that orchestral vln players are afraid of open strings but we viola players,a much superior breed altogether,(as i'm always banging on about) use them much more often-it gives a lot more resonance to yr playing and helps with the intonantion too.
but if you're just starting the fiddle,fiddlefantastic,don't give positions a second or even a first thought.
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by biggus dave
Re: Positions
I'm trying some new positions these days because first (or as some would say "missionary") position has started to feel like the same old tired routine. When I play by myself I get pretty kinky - I use all kinds of fetishy key changes and I'm learning some pretty sado-masochistic tunes. By experimenting I'm rediscovering the excitement I felt when my fiddle and I first got together.
Despite all this I still think 8 out of 10 positions that serious enthusiasts will tell you about are just for show, best left to acrobats and contortionists.
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Positions
We've been rehearsing for our first orchestral concert, and , taking the viola home, I experimented with other positions for some awkward string changes, third position was a great help, but as Trevor said, the unaccustomed position meant a terrible sound, until I just did it without worrying so much,very Zen. I've tried in some traditional music, but am trying to use my pinky if necessary, just to make it stronger, after years of neglect.
Thanks for a great discussion, yours Worzel
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by gummidge
Re: Positions
Sometimes it's easier to reach the C on the E-string by sliding the whole hand one semitone to 2nd position. Makes tunes like "Trim the Velvet" much easier when the only note outside first position is the C on the E-string.
1st position : on the E-string, finger 1 plays the F#, finger 2 the G, finger 3 the A, finger 4 the B. The C is now out of range, and a 4th finger stretch may not be clean, and produce a little whine.
2nd position : on the E-string, finger 1 plays the G, finger 2 the A, finger 3 the B, finger 4 the C. Now it's much easier to play B-C-B etc.
Jim
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Positions
*breathes sigh of relief*
This is all very encouraging
# Posted on June 15th 2004 by fiddlefantastic
Re: Positions
Thanks Jim; will give second position a try and I might then be able to add Trim the Velvet, Moving Cloud, etc to the repertoire!
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Bannerman
Re: Positions
Hey while we're on this topic, does anybody here play "Kimmel's Fancy"? Care to tell me how it's done? It's a monster 7 part hornpipe recorded by Pierre Schryer and Dermott Byrne. 3 of the 7 parts are in 3rd, 2 parts are 1/2 in third and 1/2 in first, and 1 part is in 2nd, as far as I can tell. If anybody plays this I'd like to hear exactly when and where and why you switch to third. Maybe I will post it later on for sport.
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Positions
please don't play this music at pitch on the viola,gummidge!
even if you can,smiley face thingy&all that
# Posted on June 16th 2004 by biggus dave