Life just seems to be one big injury lately. If it's not the shoulder, then it's the wrist. If it's not the wrist, it's a finger. No doubt some of it is because of old age creeping up, but I see others older than I, playing on and on with no injuries (at least none serious enough to stop them from playing). So, where am I going wrong?
The latest injury (which just isn't healing up) was so amazingly stupid that I still don't believe it, and I was there when I did it (well, mostly there).
Spraining a thumb while tuning the D string, takes a certain kind of talent - I just ain't saying what kind (and I'll thank you to keep those thoughts to yourselves ;^). And no, there was no alcohol involved. Hmm, maybe *that* is where it all went wrong.
Anyway, should I be stretching more? or warming up more? or maybe drinking more? Maybe it's time to take up a less strenuous hobby like watching the telly - I'm willing to try a lot of things before taking that horrid step. I've been trying to focus on relaxing lately, and while it seems to be helping the playing, it doesn't seem to be doing much toward preventing injuries.
So, do you stretch and/or warmup before you play? Everytime? Is the amount of time spent stretching/warming up proportional to the amount of time you plan on playing? What if you only have 15 minutes - do you stretch for 5 and play for 10? And what do you stretch? Shoulders? wrists? back? It's probably hard to describe a stretch, but if any of you have a favorite maybe you could try writing it up. If you warmup, do you just do scales and/or playing a tune really slow or really lightly? Or is it more than that?
Any and all suggestions will be appreciated, contemplated and even tried if not too far out there!
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Don't know if you're using a shoulder rest (lots of folk fiddlers don't) but that might help the neck and shoulders. Won't remedy spraining fingers while tuning, though...
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
musicians are like athletes - we use our bodies in a strenuous, repetitive, weird way...which will incidentally cause injuries. during the summers, i play for a riverdance show based in southern virginia. last summer i was taken to the emergency room with a "frozen" right shoulder - i couldn't raise my right arm above my waist. they said it was a repetitive stress injury caused by playing fiddle - five shows a day for a few months straight by then. a shot of cortisone gave me back my basic mobility so that i could drive, wash my hair, etc...but after resting my arm for two weeks i had to start physical therapy for my shoulder to strenghthen muscles which would give my fiddle-playing muscles more support. i also attend music school and play regular gigs, teach, etc so i can't afford for that to happen again. i do some shoulder/arm exercises with a thera-band every day and some back stretching exercises as well. it's definitely helped with any previous pain i've had and has prevented my shoulder injury from recurring. i've also taken up dance again, which has improved my posture both standing and sitting. maybe you can talk to a physical/occupational therapist, who can give you strengthening exercises specifically for musicians.
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
I agree with cara on those shoulder exercises for fiddlers. As my physical therapist explained to me, the problem is that both arms are used in ways that develop the muscles on the upper side of the rotator cuff, a band of muscles that control the joint. Eventually, these upper muscles grow out of balance with the muscles below, and they pull the joint up too tight. When you reach up to bow that G string, or hunch your left shoulder to snug the fiddle under your chin, bang, you create what's called an impingment in the joint--bone pinching against the rotator cuff. This is one of the causes of the frozen shoulder cara describes above.
In my case, it worked to do the theraband exercises, helping me avoid any surgery. I do them every other day--simple, not too strenuous, and they don't take more than 15 minutes.
For warm ups, I start by trying to make sure my hand and arm muscles are actually warm. I'll do the dishes in hot water, with my hands in rubber gloves. Or I use cloth bags filled with rice and hollow "hand-warmer" pockets inside. Stick these in the microwave for a minute or two, then pop your hands in the pockets for a quick wamr up. The important thing is to not work your muscles too hard when they're still cold. Blood circulation is what brings the necessary oxygen to the muscles for them to work well, and what carries away the lactic acid and other waste products of the exercise your muscles do when they play.
Then I just play slowly for the first 10 minutes. Doesn't matter what tunes, although I usually avoid any dramatic bowing arm motions (like poking the bodhran player(s) in the ear till I'm good and loose.
I find it helps to take 45 second rests now and then during a long bout of playing. I'll sit out tunes I know at sessions just to rest my hands and stretch a bit. Keeping hydrated (with *water*--and the more beer you rent, the more water you'll need to replace the fluid loss due to beer's diuretic effect) also helps those muscles cope with the work we demand of them.
If playing hurts, stop. If it hurts when you start again, see a doctor. My family doc plays fiddle too, so he's great at understanding the bio-physics of playing for three hours straight. Find a good doc who can help you troubleshoot your playing.
Due to arthritis and tendinitis, my hands usually feel pretty beat up after a long session, so I use ice packs afterward to reduce swelling. If they're really sore (which often doesn't show itself till an hour after I've stopped playing), I'll take a little aspirin or other anti-inflammatory. (Be careful NOT to take tylenol--acetominophen--if you're dehydrated from exercise or too much alcohol. The combination can cause severe, acute liver and kidney problems that may lead to failure and even death. I only post this because an otherwise healthy, young runner died from this here in Montana a few years ago.)
All this sounds simple, but more than anything else, these are the rituals that help me prevent injuries from all this chronic overuse. Good body mechanics and a relaxed posture are important, of course, but we're all still prone to repetitive stress injuries. For me it helps to follow these little habits every time I play.
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Great ideas everyone, thanks!
I actually was already using the wash the dishes before playing (at least at home, it be a bit odd to ask if you can wash dishes at the pub) - because of poor circulation in the hands, they are always ice cold and washing dishes in hot water gets them nice and warm.
Going to have to give the rice hand warmers a try and sounds like a trip to the physical therapist is in order. I'll have to look around and see if I can find one that understands the body mechanics of playing the fiddle, or at least is willing to work with me on it.
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Try a sports therapist if you can't find one that specializes in musicians -- they can usually relate musician's problems with various sporting activities. But try asking around the local university music program or symphony orchestra, too -- they often know of therapists familiar with musician's problems.
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Good tips and thanks everyone.
I play concertina and have had to slow down recently because of repetitive motion at the wrist.
Are there any concertina players at the session who have tried ergomatic lifts on their instruments? (don't know what they are called, but it looks like a foam cushion that would rest under the hands.) Looks cumbersome to me, but if it works.....hey, it's better than surgery.
Ah, we suffer for our art.
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
You might like to give the Alexander technique a try but this is probably more a preventative measure,not a remedy. It may not suit everyone but worth a go if you suffer regularly
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
I once pulled a muscle playing Jenny's Chickens on mandolin - was the high-B to low-B stretch that did it. Admittedly, I was playing outdoors in sub-zero temperatures at the time, clutching the instrument against my chest without a strap. So let that be a lesson to any mandolin buskers in cold climates - stick to tunes which don't go above A on the E-string - and always use a strap.
More recently, I had a rather more serious accident at work, where I severed the tip of a finger of my left hand on a circular saw. Thank my lucky stars, there was no damage to the bone, and it has grown back almost completely, leaving an inconspicuous scar. It is, however, about 3 months down the line, still too tender to finger a string with any force. So I am currently playing three fingered. Not one to be put off, my rationale is this: If I can reach the same standard of playing that I was at before the accident, I should be at an advantage when I get the use of this finger back.
This posting is not quite in the same vein as the others in this thread, but it's one to think about, if you're not too squeamish.
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Well, and of course there's Siobhan Peoples, and Mike Dugger has been playing banjo and mando with just two fingers for quite some time. (he gets operated on this summer...)
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
I recently joined the Session. I'm not a musician but Iove the music and I'm a closet whistle player, so I lurk around hoping to learn from those of you who know way more than I do.
I'm a Health & Safety professional and I've done some work in ergonomics. In my travels I've come across these websites that may be of some help to you.
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Hello all...
I'm 55 and took up the banjo a few years ago (bluegrass), and am starting to get better (finally), but my left hand started to bother me more and more...ring and middle finger quite stiff in the morning (I practice every evening about 2 h). Anyway, went to my doc, he took an xray, "mild arthritis"....uh oh.....bad news......so, I was looking around the web for advice about what to so I can keep playing...came across The Session and this discussion. Based on all my searching, I now try to have my hands be warm before starting, then ice down my left hand for about an hour (torture!) after practicing each night to keep down inflammation. It has made a real difference.....much less sore in the morning....I also am taking some ibuprofen every day. Thought I should pass this info along.
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
ok there is a lot of good advice here but I do ask that if you are going to mention drugs dont use the company label, use the actual drug name.Tylenol is unavailable here, but paracetomol and ibruprofen is freely available. Many countries have different dosage, brqnding and drug regualtions. For example 500mg paracetomol is standard here, but in other countries the maximum single dosage allowed is 200mg.
Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Life just seems to be one big injury lately. If it's not the shoulder, then it's the wrist. If it's not the wrist, it's a finger. No doubt some of it is because of old age creeping up, but I see others older than I, playing on and on with no injuries (at least none serious enough to stop them from playing). So, where am I going wrong?
The latest injury (which just isn't healing up) was so amazingly stupid that I still don't believe it, and I was there when I did it (well, mostly there).
Spraining a thumb while tuning the D string, takes a certain kind of talent - I just ain't saying what kind (and I'll thank you to keep those thoughts to yourselves ;^). And no, there was no alcohol involved. Hmm, maybe *that* is where it all went wrong.
Anyway, should I be stretching more? or warming up more? or maybe drinking more? Maybe it's time to take up a less strenuous hobby like watching the telly - I'm willing to try a lot of things before taking that horrid step. I've been trying to focus on relaxing lately, and while it seems to be helping the playing, it doesn't seem to be doing much toward preventing injuries.
So, do you stretch and/or warmup before you play? Everytime? Is the amount of time spent stretching/warming up proportional to the amount of time you plan on playing? What if you only have 15 minutes - do you stretch for 5 and play for 10? And what do you stretch? Shoulders? wrists? back? It's probably hard to describe a stretch, but if any of you have a favorite maybe you could try writing it up. If you warmup, do you just do scales and/or playing a tune really slow or really lightly? Or is it more than that?
Any and all suggestions will be appreciated, contemplated and even tried if not too far out there!
thanks!
# Posted on February 25th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Don't know if you're using a shoulder rest (lots of folk fiddlers don't) but that might help the neck and shoulders. Won't remedy spraining fingers while tuning, though...
# Posted on February 25th 2002 by Marc
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
I usually rotate the wrists about a little, and stretch out the fingers, but have to admit the usual warmup is playing really badly for the first set.
On the other hand, for some reason my left thumb has been bothering me all day -- wonder if I jammed it without realizing at some point?
Zina
# Posted on February 25th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
musicians are like athletes - we use our bodies in a strenuous, repetitive, weird way...which will incidentally cause injuries. during the summers, i play for a riverdance show based in southern virginia. last summer i was taken to the emergency room with a "frozen" right shoulder - i couldn't raise my right arm above my waist. they said it was a repetitive stress injury caused by playing fiddle - five shows a day for a few months straight by then. a shot of cortisone gave me back my basic mobility so that i could drive, wash my hair, etc...but after resting my arm for two weeks i had to start physical therapy for my shoulder to strenghthen muscles which would give my fiddle-playing muscles more support. i also attend music school and play regular gigs, teach, etc so i can't afford for that to happen again. i do some shoulder/arm exercises with a thera-band every day and some back stretching exercises as well. it's definitely helped with any previous pain i've had and has prevented my shoulder injury from recurring. i've also taken up dance again, which has improved my posture both standing and sitting. maybe you can talk to a physical/occupational therapist, who can give you strengthening exercises specifically for musicians.
# Posted on February 25th 2002 by carafiddle
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
I agree with cara on those shoulder exercises for fiddlers. As my physical therapist explained to me, the problem is that both arms are used in ways that develop the muscles on the upper side of the rotator cuff, a band of muscles that control the joint. Eventually, these upper muscles grow out of balance with the muscles below, and they pull the joint up too tight. When you reach up to bow that G string, or hunch your left shoulder to snug the fiddle under your chin, bang, you create what's called an impingment in the joint--bone pinching against the rotator cuff. This is one of the causes of the frozen shoulder cara describes above.
In my case, it worked to do the theraband exercises, helping me avoid any surgery. I do them every other day--simple, not too strenuous, and they don't take more than 15 minutes.
For warm ups, I start by trying to make sure my hand and arm muscles are actually warm. I'll do the dishes in hot water, with my hands in rubber gloves. Or I use cloth bags filled with rice and hollow "hand-warmer" pockets inside. Stick these in the microwave for a minute or two, then pop your hands in the pockets for a quick wamr up. The important thing is to not work your muscles too hard when they're still cold. Blood circulation is what brings the necessary oxygen to the muscles for them to work well, and what carries away the lactic acid and other waste products of the exercise your muscles do when they play.
Then I just play slowly for the first 10 minutes. Doesn't matter what tunes, although I usually avoid any dramatic bowing arm motions (like poking the bodhran player(s) in the ear
till I'm good and loose.
I find it helps to take 45 second rests now and then during a long bout of playing. I'll sit out tunes I know at sessions just to rest my hands and stretch a bit. Keeping hydrated (with *water*--and the more beer you rent, the more water you'll need to replace the fluid loss due to beer's diuretic effect) also helps those muscles cope with the work we demand of them.
If playing hurts, stop. If it hurts when you start again, see a doctor. My family doc plays fiddle too, so he's great at understanding the bio-physics of playing for three hours straight. Find a good doc who can help you troubleshoot your playing.
Due to arthritis and tendinitis, my hands usually feel pretty beat up after a long session, so I use ice packs afterward to reduce swelling. If they're really sore (which often doesn't show itself till an hour after I've stopped playing), I'll take a little aspirin or other anti-inflammatory. (Be careful NOT to take tylenol--acetominophen--if you're dehydrated from exercise or too much alcohol. The combination can cause severe, acute liver and kidney problems that may lead to failure and even death. I only post this because an otherwise healthy, young runner died from this here in Montana a few years ago.)
All this sounds simple, but more than anything else, these are the rituals that help me prevent injuries from all this chronic overuse. Good body mechanics and a relaxed posture are important, of course, but we're all still prone to repetitive stress injuries. For me it helps to follow these little habits every time I play.
# Posted on February 26th 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Great ideas everyone, thanks!
I actually was already using the wash the dishes before playing (at least at home, it be a bit odd to ask if you can wash dishes at the pub) - because of poor circulation in the hands, they are always ice cold and washing dishes in hot water gets them nice and warm.
Going to have to give the rice hand warmers a try and sounds like a trip to the physical therapist is in order. I'll have to look around and see if I can find one that understands the body mechanics of playing the fiddle, or at least is willing to work with me on it.
# Posted on February 26th 2002 by chicagofiddler
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Try a sports therapist if you can't find one that specializes in musicians -- they can usually relate musician's problems with various sporting activities. But try asking around the local university music program or symphony orchestra, too -- they often know of therapists familiar with musician's problems.
Zina
# Posted on February 26th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Good tips and thanks everyone.
I play concertina and have had to slow down recently because of repetitive motion at the wrist.
Are there any concertina players at the session who have tried ergomatic lifts on their instruments? (don't know what they are called, but it looks like a foam cushion that would rest under the hands.) Looks cumbersome to me, but if it works.....hey, it's better than surgery.
Ah, we suffer for our art.
# Posted on February 26th 2002 by Charlene
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
You might like to give the Alexander technique a try but this is probably more a preventative measure,not a remedy. It may not suit everyone but worth a go if you suffer regularly
# Posted on February 26th 2002 by biggus dave
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
I once pulled a muscle playing Jenny's Chickens on mandolin - was the high-B to low-B stretch that did it. Admittedly, I was playing outdoors in sub-zero temperatures at the time, clutching the instrument against my chest without a strap. So let that be a lesson to any mandolin buskers in cold climates - stick to tunes which don't go above A on the E-string - and always use a strap.
More recently, I had a rather more serious accident at work, where I severed the tip of a finger of my left hand on a circular saw. Thank my lucky stars, there was no damage to the bone, and it has grown back almost completely, leaving an inconspicuous scar. It is, however, about 3 months down the line, still too tender to finger a string with any force. So I am currently playing three fingered. Not one to be put off, my rationale is this: If I can reach the same standard of playing that I was at before the accident, I should be at an advantage when I get the use of this finger back.
This posting is not quite in the same vein as the others in this thread, but it's one to think about, if you're not too squeamish.
# Posted on February 27th 2002 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Well, and of course there's Siobhan Peoples, and Mike Dugger has been playing banjo and mando with just two fingers for quite some time. (he gets operated on this summer...)
zls
# Posted on February 27th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
I recently joined the Session. I'm not a musician but Iove the music and I'm a closet whistle player, so I lurk around hoping to learn from those of you who know way more than I do.
I'm a Health & Safety professional and I've done some work in ergonomics. In my travels I've come across these websites that may be of some help to you.
http://www.engr.unl.edu/ee/eeshop/music.html
http://www.musicianshealth.com/
They deal directly with musician's injuries. Hope you find them useful.
Bruce
# Posted on March 3rd 2002 by BruceK
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Aha! Well, welcome to The Session, Bruce, and we hope to hear from you more often now that you've de-lurked. Especially on these subjects.
Zina
# Posted on March 3rd 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
Hello all...
I'm 55 and took up the banjo a few years ago (bluegrass), and am starting to get better (finally), but my left hand started to bother me more and more...ring and middle finger quite stiff in the morning (I practice every evening about 2 h). Anyway, went to my doc, he took an xray, "mild arthritis"....uh oh.....bad news......so, I was looking around the web for advice about what to so I can keep playing...came across The Session and this discussion. Based on all my searching, I now try to have my hands be warm before starting, then ice down my left hand for about an hour (torture!) after practicing each night to keep down inflammation. It has made a real difference.....much less sore in the morning....I also am taking some ibuprofen every day. Thought I should pass this info along.
Jim
# Posted on September 14th 2006 by jim_pankow
Re: Injuries, can't play with em, can't go without em
ok there is a lot of good advice here but I do ask that if you are going to mention drugs dont use the company label, use the actual drug name.Tylenol is unavailable here, but paracetomol and ibruprofen is freely available. Many countries have different dosage, brqnding and drug regualtions. For example 500mg paracetomol is standard here, but in other countries the maximum single dosage allowed is 200mg.
# Posted on September 14th 2006 by Joze