There are a number of nice boxes on the market at the moment, like Castagnari, Cairdin, Serenellini, and Saltarelle, just to mention a few. These can be fairly expensive, and you might wait a bit for a new one. Whether one is "better" than another depends a lot on the sound you're looking for, how you like to play etc. etc.
On the other hand, there are lots of old(er) Hohners out there being happily played in sessions too. These are often affordable (cheaper) and easier to find on Ebay or from your local accordion dealer, and might be just the thing if you're starting out.
If you're in Cork City, maybe you could get around to some sessions and ask the players there?
Other than that, I'd suggest staying away from Chinese accordions in general, and any older ones that were made in East Germany.
Can anyone try to describe the differences in 'tone'(sound quality, not tuning),action and general playability of the recommended boxes mentioned above? Not easy in words, agreed.
I suppose it depends on where you're at as a player. If you're just beginning, you may not want to fork up the big bucks for one of those high end models just yet, unless you're definitely committed to playing the button accordion. With the high end boxes, you can really tell the difference re the button action, and the sound from handmade reeds in comparison to entry level boxes.
That said, out of the beginner instruments, Weltmeister and Billy McComiskey's Learner accordion are fairly affordable ( $400 for the Learner), and sound decent with pretty good action. Castagnari and Saltarelle's low end start at around $1200, but they generally have better reeds etc.
As for me, I've been playing on a Learner for the past three years, and I just ordered a Saltarelle Connemara III.
I suppose this also depends on how strong you are. The Paolo Soprani is among the heaviest. I had trouble with that. The Castagnari Tommy was a nice small box but mine had a step keyboard and I sold it as unsuitable for ITM.
My current box is the Salterelle Nuage and I find it a very nice box with great tone, nice fast action, and relatively light weight for easy playability. Salterelle's can be had from $1200 to $3000 dol. US. The difference being fit and finish and number of stops and basses.
Not impossible if you're doing it, Goldfrog! It's not the stove that makes the cook..
Is the difference really noticible with hand- made reeds in the medium range instruments? I'm looking for a lightweight C#/D, flat keyboard,quality box, for peanuts, preferably.
Doesn't Castagnari also make a Tommy with a flat keyboard just for Irish players? (I know SS played one with a stepped keyboard.)
Higher quality reeds have a "warmth", "depth" and a "roundness" to their sound that you'd recognize after hearing a decent box up close for a while. (Check out the IrishBox group on Yahoo if you want to read more in-depth discussions of reed quality and sound. Fill your boots!) They are also a lot more responsive, meaning that they start to sound noticeably faster, and will sound well at a wider range of air pressures.
In contrast, a cheaper box might have a weak, more nasal, metallic, and generally harsher (hopefully not all at once!) tone. What you'd notice is that this box sounds ok at a certain pressure, and as you back off and try to play more quietly, you start to lose notes as some reeds stop sounding, or it starts becoming harsher. The overall tone is inconsistent, and you're stuck at one volume level.
The (pre-Chinese) Hohners are a good compromise. They had pretty good reeds in them, a fairly warm sound, and are quite responsive. The keyboard is kind of floppy though.
Going from the low-end to an Italian box is a great improvement, mostly because the keyboard is better. The buttons are slightly larger, and the key mechanism is much higher quality (= more solid), so you expend less effort in actually fingering notes. By contrast, cheaper accordions start to feel like they're mushy and a lot of work.
Re-reading the question above, you were asking about the Italian boxes mentioned above. I've tried Castagnari, a couple each of Mengascini, Saltarelle, Cairdin, and own a Serenellini. I don't feel (based on not much time with any except the last one) that there's much to choose between them as far as the keyboard goes, and they all sounded fine. To me. After a couple of beers.
As far as I know, most European makers buy their reed sets from a couple of sources, so there shouldn't be huge differences in reed quality at that level.
Finally, playing a good box is just more fun, more expressive, more bang for your practicing buck. I still like the sound of my old Hohner, but I can't say I play it much.
If you want a light box you really can't beat a Tommy in my mind. But I now almsot exclusivly play my Salterelle Nuage which is heavier but has stops in both the teble and bass which I find invalable, especially the ability to take the thirds out of the chords.
Unfortunately none of this comes for peanuts, I just paid £1500 for my Nuage fortunately two weeks before it went up by £300.
As to Hohner's old ones are very good for Morris and English tunes but I would not consider one for Irish as they are too slow and clattery.
Hey, that's what John Williams uses. I think that's what I'll be getting when I can scrape enough $$$ together. I have never heard a box that sounds nicer than his.
Stops are the things that changes the number of reeds sounding. They will cut of the air supply to one or more reeds. This makes it possible to get various sounds from a box. The stops are the buttons on top of the box that you pull up and push down from time to time. Many accordions have switches on the front to do this.
I'd say that if you're looking at a cheap C#d you have a limited choise. The beginners from china are usually only B/C, but hohner makes two models in C#/D (Pokerwerk and double ray) otherwise check out the used marked.
I'd say try posting this at the irishbox groups at groups.yahoo.com for more replys, and perhaps someone has got one for ya in your area to try out.
As a new box player (and also new to The Session) I might add that B/C boxes are far easier to find than C#/D. Though C#/D sounds more logical for trad (as most tunes are in D or related keys) the B/C actually works very well in those keys. When I was searching for a good box I found very few in C#/D that matched my other criteria. When I finally conceded to look at B/C suddenly there were many more to choose from. Just my two cents.
The action on Hohner pokerworks and Ericas can be improved simply by putting some felt under the buttons.
Why are flat keyboards preferred for Irish music? I play with both flat and stepped keyboards and have never noticed an advantage in either but then I play quint tuned boxes.
Goldfrog, I ordered my Tommy and waited eight months for it to arrive. The flat keyboard was not an option at that time. I believe Ms. Shannon could play a washboard and it would sound better than me. I just found that my fingers were always getting tied in knots (which they do anyway) on the Tommy with the step keyboard.
Paul, for a duffer like myself the step keyboard just added another wrinkle which I did not need. Most often when playing tunes on the B/C box you will cross over from the inside row to the outside row and vice versa. It is nice to roll your finger over without also having to lift it going to the inside, or having it drop on the outside. It was not insurmountable. But when I saw the Salterelle and was able to trade up for only $500 I jumped at the chance.
Try playing a few tunes on each type at an accordion shop or a festival and judge for yourself which type of keyboard you prefer.
tthe first thing might be to decide how many voice / reeds you want, remembering that a 4 voice is like to be over £1,100 possibly Eu 1,650. The 4 v. is going to be heavy.
The Paolo Soprani will hold it's value & they do a 3 v. " dry tuned " & also a 2v.
The Boorinwood 2r 4v is .75k lighter than the Elite 1& a little smaller see www.boorinwoodmusic.com ( 2 year guarantee )
"v. Czech made in Boorinwood also incl case would set you back about £300.
Every learner driver does not start driving on a Rolls Royce or a BMW estate car.
I notice so many people writing here seem to think it's a R.R. or nothing. Suggesting beginners start on a reasonable priced instrument should ensure more students are not led to believe one must start at the top
J.B
Just go along to The Music Room in Cleckheaton and you can play as many boxe as you like and choose one you like. I play a Castagnari Lilly and used to like the sound but now find it a bit high and squeaky - I love the Castagnari Nik. However, C#D wise, I play a Saltarelle Irish Bouebe which is really nice to play and especially handy as it has a flat keyboard.
"Every learner driver does not start driving on a Rolls Royce or a BMW estate car.
I notice so many people writing here seem to think it's a R.R. or nothing."
I see and respect your point, but when looking for my first box, Gregory Grene (who also plays a B/C and C#/D Tommys) gave me a great piece of advice: There is no point in starting with cheap equipment. Not necissarily a Rolls Royce, but definately not a Pinto either. I have a Learner B/C Billy box now; the right price (i got it with hard and soft cases at a festival discount) and it came at the right time. It was a fine instrument to start on. The button action was a bit long, but i fixed that easily with a couple strips of felt.
I'm considering getting their C#/D as well, but i can't figure out how to get in touch with them now. Does any have any advice here?
I just purchased a Hohner C#/D Double Ray Black Dot from a retailer in Mass, USA. It was evening when I took delivery. I played it a bit, and it sounded OK. I wasn't expecting it to sound like a Paolo, so I was cool with what is basically a Hohner Vienna sound. The next morning, while playing, I noticed the buttons will plunge below the surface of the keyboard. They do this on some older Hohners I own, so it's no big deal, but just for fun, I thought I'd open the intrument and have a look at what's involved in "just putting some felt" behind the buttons in the fingerboard. I removed the grille, pulled the bellows pins opened 'er up. Now, I have been playing various types of accordions for 50 years. I have never, ever seen, with one possible exception, a crappier sack of accordion parts than the new double ray. What a POS. The worst hardware, worst plating, bad glue joints (really sloppy), Bellows tape is lumpy, uneven and apparently assembled by visually challenged workers. What it is, is a $50 accordion with a $1200 price tag and HOHNER silk screened on the box.
Every material is see inside this accordion is of the absolute lowest quality, and absolute lowest quality of workmanship. If it was any worse, it couldn't be sold, because it wouldn't be able to play tunes, at least not for long. The hardware (screws, nuts, washers) are what you'd expect to find on a cheap chinese made toy. You know, the kind of stuff that breaks shortly after you get it home. I was shocked. I put it back together and I think I'll sell it ASAP on Craigslist. Maybe try one of those DanceMasters or save a little more money and get a Paolo. I have a Weltmeister C#/D box as well, and there is no comparison. The quality is vastly better in the Weltmeister. Hands down, it wins by a mile. Too bad for Hohner. The Double Ray sounds ok, but technically, it's a piece of crap that will likely not stand up very well to even occasional session use. Sorry for the bad news, but at least you can take it to the bank, boys.
Thanks Robert for that report. I have a Swiss made Double Ray and I've also looked at a couple of Chinese made ones. Completely different machines. These pieces of crap will give Hohner a bad name. I don't understand what they are thinking about.
Nial
what is the best box to buy?
what is the best box to buy?
i ask the quistion what is the best button accordian on the market at hte moment as box player myself i need to know?
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by walshyofcork
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Ummm, the one you can afford?
There are a number of nice boxes on the market at the moment, like Castagnari, Cairdin, Serenellini, and Saltarelle, just to mention a few. These can be fairly expensive, and you might wait a bit for a new one. Whether one is "better" than another depends a lot on the sound you're looking for, how you like to play etc. etc.
On the other hand, there are lots of old(er) Hohners out there being happily played in sessions too. These are often affordable (cheaper) and easier to find on Ebay or from your local accordion dealer, and might be just the thing if you're starting out.
If you're in Cork City, maybe you could get around to some sessions and ask the players there?
Other than that, I'd suggest staying away from Chinese accordions in general, and any older ones that were made in East Germany.
Happy hunting!
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Gzeg
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Can anyone try to describe the differences in 'tone'(sound quality, not tuning),action and general playability of the recommended boxes mentioned above? Not easy in words, agreed.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by JNW
Re: what is the best box to buy?
I suppose it depends on where you're at as a player. If you're just beginning, you may not want to fork up the big bucks for one of those high end models just yet, unless you're definitely committed to playing the button accordion. With the high end boxes, you can really tell the difference re the button action, and the sound from handmade reeds in comparison to entry level boxes.
That said, out of the beginner instruments, Weltmeister and Billy McComiskey's Learner accordion are fairly affordable ( $400 for the Learner), and sound decent with pretty good action. Castagnari and Saltarelle's low end start at around $1200, but they generally have better reeds etc.
As for me, I've been playing on a Learner for the past three years, and I just ordered a Saltarelle Connemara III.
Good luck
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by jmmana
Re: what is the best box to buy?
I suppose this also depends on how strong you are. The Paolo Soprani is among the heaviest. I had trouble with that. The Castagnari Tommy was a nice small box but mine had a step keyboard and I sold it as unsuitable for ITM.
My current box is the Salterelle Nuage and I find it a very nice box with great tone, nice fast action, and relatively light weight for easy playability. Salterelle's can be had from $1200 to $3000 dol. US. The difference being fit and finish and number of stops and basses.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by meowguy
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Meowguy said he sold his Tommy as it was "unsuitable for ITM" guess he had better warn Sharron Shannon.
Mind you I play Irish Tunes on a Tommy and an English Concertina both of which I am told is impossible.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by goldfrog
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Not impossible if you're doing it, Goldfrog! It's not the stove that makes the cook..
Is the difference really noticible with hand- made reeds in the medium range instruments? I'm looking for a lightweight C#/D, flat keyboard,quality box, for peanuts, preferably.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by JNW
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Doesn't Castagnari also make a Tommy with a flat keyboard just for Irish players? (I know SS played one with a stepped keyboard.)
Higher quality reeds have a "warmth", "depth" and a "roundness" to their sound that you'd recognize after hearing a decent box up close for a while. (Check out the IrishBox group on Yahoo if you want to read more in-depth discussions of reed quality and sound. Fill your boots!) They are also a lot more responsive, meaning that they start to sound noticeably faster, and will sound well at a wider range of air pressures.
In contrast, a cheaper box might have a weak, more nasal, metallic, and generally harsher (hopefully not all at once!) tone. What you'd notice is that this box sounds ok at a certain pressure, and as you back off and try to play more quietly, you start to lose notes as some reeds stop sounding, or it starts becoming harsher. The overall tone is inconsistent, and you're stuck at one volume level.
The (pre-Chinese) Hohners are a good compromise. They had pretty good reeds in them, a fairly warm sound, and are quite responsive. The keyboard is kind of floppy though.
Going from the low-end to an Italian box is a great improvement, mostly because the keyboard is better. The buttons are slightly larger, and the key mechanism is much higher quality (= more solid), so you expend less effort in actually fingering notes. By contrast, cheaper accordions start to feel like they're mushy and a lot of work.
Re-reading the question above, you were asking about the Italian boxes mentioned above. I've tried Castagnari, a couple each of Mengascini, Saltarelle, Cairdin, and own a Serenellini. I don't feel (based on not much time with any except the last one) that there's much to choose between them as far as the keyboard goes, and they all sounded fine. To me. After a couple of beers.
As far as I know, most European makers buy their reed sets from a couple of sources, so there shouldn't be huge differences in reed quality at that level.
Finally, playing a good box is just more fun, more expressive, more bang for your practicing buck. I still like the sound of my old Hohner, but I can't say I play it much.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Gzeg
Re: what is the best box to buy?
If you want a light box you really can't beat a Tommy in my mind. But I now almsot exclusivly play my Salterelle Nuage which is heavier but has stops in both the teble and bass which I find invalable, especially the ability to take the thirds out of the chords.
Unfortunately none of this comes for peanuts, I just paid £1500 for my Nuage fortunately two weeks before it went up by £300.
As to Hohner's old ones are very good for Morris and English tunes but I would not consider one for Irish as they are too slow and clattery.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by goldfrog
Re: what is the best box to buy?
"I just ordered a Saltarelle Connemara III"
Hey, that's what John Williams uses. I think that's what I'll be getting when I can scrape enough $$$ together. I have never heard a box that sounds nicer than his.
What are stops? (I'm clueless)
-Max
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Max Becher
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Stops are the things that changes the number of reeds sounding. They will cut of the air supply to one or more reeds. This makes it possible to get various sounds from a box. The stops are the buttons on top of the box that you pull up and push down from time to time. Many accordions have switches on the front to do this.
I'd say that if you're looking at a cheap C#d you have a limited choise. The beginners from china are usually only B/C, but hohner makes two models in C#/D (Pokerwerk and double ray) otherwise check out the used marked.
I'd say try posting this at the irishbox groups at groups.yahoo.com for more replys, and perhaps someone has got one for ya in your area to try out.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Larshansen
Re: what is the best box to buy?
As a new box player (and also new to The Session) I might add that B/C boxes are far easier to find than C#/D. Though C#/D sounds more logical for trad (as most tunes are in D or related keys) the B/C actually works very well in those keys. When I was searching for a good box I found very few in C#/D that matched my other criteria. When I finally conceded to look at B/C suddenly there were many more to choose from. Just my two cents.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by morgan
Re: what is the best box to buy?
The action on Hohner pokerworks and Ericas can be improved simply by putting some felt under the buttons.
Why are flat keyboards preferred for Irish music? I play with both flat and stepped keyboards and have never noticed an advantage in either but then I play quint tuned boxes.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Paul_draper
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Goldfrog, I ordered my Tommy and waited eight months for it to arrive. The flat keyboard was not an option at that time. I believe Ms. Shannon could play a washboard and it would sound better than me. I just found that my fingers were always getting tied in knots (which they do anyway) on the Tommy with the step keyboard.
# Posted on June 3rd 2004 by meowguy
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Paul, for a duffer like myself the step keyboard just added another wrinkle which I did not need. Most often when playing tunes on the B/C box you will cross over from the inside row to the outside row and vice versa. It is nice to roll your finger over without also having to lift it going to the inside, or having it drop on the outside. It was not insurmountable. But when I saw the Salterelle and was able to trade up for only $500 I jumped at the chance.
Try playing a few tunes on each type at an accordion shop or a festival and judge for yourself which type of keyboard you prefer.
# Posted on June 3rd 2004 by meowguy
Re: what is the best box to buy?
All thoughtful and helpful tips and recommendations. Thank-you all, for my part.
# Posted on June 3rd 2004 by JNW
Re: what is the best box to buy?
tthe first thing might be to decide how many voice / reeds you want, remembering that a 4 voice is like to be over £1,100 possibly Eu 1,650. The 4 v. is going to be heavy.
The Paolo Soprani will hold it's value & they do a 3 v. " dry tuned " & also a 2v.
The Boorinwood 2r 4v is .75k lighter than the Elite 1& a little smaller see www.boorinwoodmusic.com ( 2 year guarantee )
"v. Czech made in Boorinwood also incl case would set you back about £300.
Every learner driver does not start driving on a Rolls Royce or a BMW estate car.
I notice so many people writing here seem to think it's a R.R. or nothing. Suggesting beginners start on a reasonable priced instrument should ensure more students are not led to believe one must start at the top
J.B
# Posted on June 3rd 2004 by boorinwood
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Just go along to The Music Room in Cleckheaton and you can play as many boxe as you like and choose one you like. I play a Castagnari Lilly and used to like the sound but now find it a bit high and squeaky - I love the Castagnari Nik. However, C#D wise, I play a Saltarelle Irish Bouebe which is really nice to play and especially handy as it has a flat keyboard.
# Posted on June 6th 2004 by JoeOConnor10
Re: what is the best box to buy?
"Every learner driver does not start driving on a Rolls Royce or a BMW estate car.
I notice so many people writing here seem to think it's a R.R. or nothing."
I see and respect your point, but when looking for my first box, Gregory Grene (who also plays a B/C and C#/D Tommys) gave me a great piece of advice: There is no point in starting with cheap equipment. Not necissarily a Rolls Royce, but definately not a Pinto either. I have a Learner B/C Billy box now; the right price (i got it with hard and soft cases at a festival discount) and it came at the right time. It was a fine instrument to start on. The button action was a bit long, but i fixed that easily with a couple strips of felt.
I'm considering getting their C#/D as well, but i can't figure out how to get in touch with them now. Does any have any advice here?
# Posted on December 30th 2007 by watctc85
Re: what is the best box to buy?
I just purchased a Hohner C#/D Double Ray Black Dot from a retailer in Mass, USA. It was evening when I took delivery. I played it a bit, and it sounded OK. I wasn't expecting it to sound like a Paolo, so I was cool with what is basically a Hohner Vienna sound. The next morning, while playing, I noticed the buttons will plunge below the surface of the keyboard. They do this on some older Hohners I own, so it's no big deal, but just for fun, I thought I'd open the intrument and have a look at what's involved in "just putting some felt" behind the buttons in the fingerboard. I removed the grille, pulled the bellows pins opened 'er up. Now, I have been playing various types of accordions for 50 years. I have never, ever seen, with one possible exception, a crappier sack of accordion parts than the new double ray. What a POS. The worst hardware, worst plating, bad glue joints (really sloppy), Bellows tape is lumpy, uneven and apparently assembled by visually challenged workers. What it is, is a $50 accordion with a $1200 price tag and HOHNER silk screened on the box.
Every material is see inside this accordion is of the absolute lowest quality, and absolute lowest quality of workmanship. If it was any worse, it couldn't be sold, because it wouldn't be able to play tunes, at least not for long. The hardware (screws, nuts, washers) are what you'd expect to find on a cheap chinese made toy. You know, the kind of stuff that breaks shortly after you get it home. I was shocked. I put it back together and I think I'll sell it ASAP on Craigslist. Maybe try one of those DanceMasters or save a little more money and get a Paolo. I have a Weltmeister C#/D box as well, and there is no comparison. The quality is vastly better in the Weltmeister. Hands down, it wins by a mile. Too bad for Hohner. The Double Ray sounds ok, but technically, it's a piece of crap that will likely not stand up very well to even occasional session use. Sorry for the bad news, but at least you can take it to the bank, boys.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Robert English
Re: what is the best box to buy?
Thanks Robert for that report. I have a Swiss made Double Ray and I've also looked at a couple of Chinese made ones. Completely different machines. These pieces of crap will give Hohner a bad name. I don't understand what they are thinking about.
Nial
# Posted on December 7th 2009 by Burnt Nial