I am a tolerant person, but last night for some reason I was pushed to the limits.
First up was a hijacking of a set of very twee Morrisish tunes. Most nights I would have smiled sweetly/gone to the bar/toilet etc, but for some reason I chirped in with a favourite tune of my daughters. There were a few bemused looks, then one by one everyone joined in. Then I started singing the words to the tune: 'There was a Princess long ago, long ago, long ago ...'. Everyone clattered to halt with confused looks, but fortunately they saw the funny side and we settled into a night of regular stuff.
We are also very tolerant of a very nice lady who plays a bodhran with an irregular, fibrilating style that bears no relation to the tunes being pliyed. I like to think of it as a character building exercise playing alongside her but last night, as a favour to everyone else and with great self-sacrifice, I asked her just after a set started if I could please have a go on her drum, as I was desperate to have a go. It worked, she stopped, lent me her instrument and I pretended to play.
Not sure if these tactics make me a villain or a hero, but they worked and I went home with a very smug, self-satisfied feeling. Roll on the next session.
When it comes to session intervention tactics; one man's villain is another man's hero. Anytime you become proactive in doing something about a problem in a session, no matter if it's even recognized by everyone present except the offender -- there will almost certainly be repercussions.
In a previous thread I contributed the following anecdote:
“There was one person who was bullying people in the session, playing real loud on the piano, drowning out our regular guitar back-up player, and other back-up players that were taking turns. I finally had to sit in front of the piano to prevent this person from pushing people out of her way so rudely. (She was built like a football player ok) She would actually push people out of her way while they were playing; it was like bumper-car fiddlers. She was big all right, but I’m built like a grizzly bear, (think big teddy bear,) and not easy to push around. Well anyway, this person, managed to enlist locals to come in and threaten me physically on her behalf. She also tried to get the publican to take action, but cooler heads prevailed. Eventually her disposition became evident to her advocates, and they lost their motivation to stand up for her. I did suffer from the residual damage for years to come, but at this point it’s just another session anecdote to tell.”
Provoking a bar room brawl is not the thing I had in mind and being where we are, that would be *very* easy. We've just moved to this venue and are not looking to be kicked out just yet. I'm after more subtle methods to bring a bit of sanity to a session that at times resembles a social services drop-in centre. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have it any other way ;-\
I would love to find a tactic to stop this horrible whistle player. He drives me nuts. I can't sit beside him in a session and if there isn't enough people to drown him out, I physically can not play. He plays the same mess for every tune. Since he can not discriminate between tunes, he thinks he knows all of them. The session leaders won't due a thing, and the guy needs serious help. He actually uses rolls to bluff a tune. It's all over the place. To make matters worse, he isn't even a nice guy. He's miserable, but easily offended. Since I'm a quarter of his age, and not a session leader, it would be in bad taste for me to say anything... Gotta tactic for me?
I have become, in the sessions that I do, the guy that "sorts people out." Unfortunately, by the time I decide to act, I'm usually so annoyed that the method is far from subtle. For example, I ask the offending person to stop playing. But is this really so bad? I'm I as much of an a-hole as I feel immediately after evicting someone? The rest of the folks in the session are glad for it, anyway.
It's a subtle thing figuring out whether you belong in a session or not, I think. Does someone who plays guitar well but not know trad belong in a session? I guess it depends on the level of the session, but in general, I would say no. At the same time, anyone learning a melody instrument can sit in on any session relatively unobtrusively if they lay back and join in on the tunes they know. People I end up having words with tend to have a simmilar attitude in that they look at a session as a venue for their personal experience (at the expense of the experience of anyone else, or the greater good.) Such folks usually don't get subtle points, anyway.
I once posted on a ITM site such as this about a local whistle player who was learning to play, knew a few tunes, but played with every tune anyway (in the manner maple describes.) And I think he read it.
this is very important, you must learn how to tell these people to shut up. Forget trying to be nice, they are antisocial gits and they need telling. Stop pussy footing and put rour foot downy
We have a guy who plays along to tunes he doesn't know week after week and it usually hurts the session. And the guys I hang with complain about it all the time, myself included. One guy suggested stopping in the middle of the tune and asking this offender to hear his "version", knowing damn well he doesn't have one. Busted!
Well it hasn't been done yet but it could be a funny tactic for getting players to stop wrecking it for others when they don't know the tune.
We used to have this other guy who would start lots of tunes that he could barely play himself...ugh! I used to ask him if he ever practiced in a nice, polite manner. It seemed like he would use the session as his practice time and feel the need to run through repertoire, which luckily wasn't very big. Once I had to suggest he let one of the boys start a tune (BTW- the boys are really good musicians) One tactic I've tried with this person is recommending lessons.......but it didn't work........he still sounds like he did 3 years ago, even after the lessons.........but at least he hasn't been around for a while
The big problem is that none of us "own" or started this session so we can't really tell people to stop doing certain things. If I was planning on sticking around VT for good, I'd start one with the boys and stop all my complaining
I remember way back when it was me wrecking the session... luckily I wised up before my whistle was shoved somewhere that the sun never shines. I remember sitting there (this is at least 20 years ago BTW) I was thinking; wow... this looks fun... I wish I knew more tunes... hey, this one sounds easy... maybe I can do it if I play quietly. Before long one of the musos turned and gave me the evil eye... that was all it took thank God. But I think that's the crux of how to deal with it -- exposure. Tell the king he has no clothes on... sort of thing.
Maple, you could ask your whistle player to repeat a tune after a set on his own, 'cos you thought he was really good. Or would that just encourage him?
I tried that once Conway. The offender replied, "Oh, I don't really know that one yet... I almost got it though... I'll have it next time." Then they think to themselves, "Wow... he thought I was really good... I'm really good at faking it... no one notices... they think I'm brilliant... I AM BRILLIANT... THIS IS GREAT!"
At what was-to-become a great session once, there was a player next to me that obviously was out of place with a very loud saxophone. I decided to do something about it. Everytime the instrument was raised I started a new conversation about this and that, eventually the player left saying "maybe next time you can find someone else to practice your english on". The tactic worked, and everyone else at the session was relieved, but I must say I felt awkward about it afterwards, and any such tactic should only be used with discretion and when urgently needed.
The evil eye, or even just a tilt of the head with a curious expression provides a more direct feedback to things that are out of line. I have, just like Jack and any of us probably, been on the receiving line of this on occations where I have been over-tempted to stretch limits (e.g. join in jamming fiddle- chords to tunes I only know fairly well.)
I`d say giving this (conscious or un-) feedback is much more honest and upfront than not providing it or frowning behind somebody`s back, and learning to at least read these signs is a part of becoming a good sessioneer. (Boyscout salute)
I once scared away a loud guitar player who knew not a single tune (but played them all anyway) from a session for at least six months with the following conversation.
Him: Gosh, the tunes are really hard to hear!
Me: Yeah, it's true eh? You know what I do when I'm having trouble following the melodies? I stop playing. Maybe you could try that.
After which he thought I was the rudest, most uppity snarky b*tch he'd ever met and hated me for months (thankfully in the privacy of his own home). His hatred of me fuelled him, just like in a kung fu movie, and he trained himself rigorously for months before coming back for a re-match. He was still too loud, but he knew some tunes and he was playing actual Irish rhythms in DADGAD.
So if you need to insult someone and make him hate you (if you can deal with that kind of karma) cheer up! You are probably doing HIM a favour, not to mention your session.
What's wrong with a quiet word in someone's ear - simply tell them the truth without making a big deal out of it?
WRT the bodhran player - we were once tormented with a similarly disjointed female australian at a session in Ballina. I went up to her and quietly expressed my sympathy about her medical condition, and how it must affect her rhythm - wasn't long before she huffed and disappeared never to darken our session door again. :~)Or yet again a mate [bodhran player] Peter who asked a Yank whether or not she used vaseline [ a form of petroleum jelly ] on the bodhran and she asked - "you mean on the skin to make it soft?" Peter's reply - "No on the rim so that when I shove it up your a##e it won't hurt too much."
If that doesn't work then the public humiliation thing might be the next tactic - Can you play another instrument? Can you play far away? For f**k sake will you ever shut up ...........
Lets face it there are some people out there who are stone deaf when it comes to music and playing . And no matter how enthusiastic they are , how much dedicated practice they put,in they will never be any good at it.Sorry but its a fact of life.
I'm not saying there intensions are not honerable, and there love and joy of music is just as intense as somebody who CAN play well, but there it is.
For example, I Can't play football to save my life, I've got two left feet, I will NEVER play for England. I might love football (actually I don't) which means the only way I can enjoy it is by being a spectator. I rest my case Ma Lord.
My most rebarbitive comment was to a dire "singer/guitarist" (very loose definition), who, upon approaching the money pot to buy himself a drink, was told by me "Sorry, for musicians only." Pretty sadistic, I know, but I was speaking on behalf of the other session members as well as a personal catharsis. Made no difference to him though - he just smiled and carried on, bought himself a drink from the pot. Skin like rhinoceros. Looks like one as well mind you...
Interesting note...people insist on others learning by ear but don't want them to try it at their sessions? Hmm...I sometimes try to pick up tunes by ear at sessions (only at fairly large ones where I can easily be buried), but I have a method that doesn't seem too obtrusive to others. No one's given me the evil eye that I can tell!
We had a guy at a session I used to go to...a whistle player who also played bodhran. He played loud. REALLY loud. His whistle was really sharp and he didn't seem to notice it. One of the guys at the session talked to him before one once, told him that maybe if he played a little softer the whistle wouldn't go so sharp. He also played bodhran a bit too loudly (this would be an understatement...he played it like it we were some sort of rock band)...and that was mentioned too. Last I knew, he was getting better at the volume issue and hopefully the fiddle player who wanted to take a pen knife to his bodhran doesn't want to anymore!
Just been reading through a few of the recent 'moan and whinge' threads, including this one, and so much of the stuff which makes a session un-enjoyable, annoying, irritating, frustrating, making me wonder, "Is it just me, or is this crap really happening? ... and should-I-just-knock-it-on-the head forevermore?" - just rings so true! My latest tactic is simple : I don't bother going to play at local sessions any more! Sometimes enough is enough.
I can now spend more time with the band, playing music, enjoying it, and just as importantly, having full control over it. Will still go to some of the good sessions in London or Dublin, where I will either play or just listen, depending on the situation.
It's interesting how a web forum filled with people that love sessions spend so much time talking about the bad things about them. But I guess it's kind of like writing songs. You don't write songs if you're happy. If the session is great, there's no need to talk about it, I guess.
Sorry, No matter how clueless someone is, suggesting that your going to shove anything up their ass gives them the right to break a pint glass over your head. There are far more effective ways that don't earmark you as a total prick in this small musical community. If your passive-aggresive, hint-dropping, back-stabbing techniques don't work; why don't you just be honest & staightforward? You can just ask someone to stop, tell them their welcome to listen, tell them to bring a tape recorder so they can learn at home. It's much more respectable & effective. Remember, that idiot may become a really good player down the road. Guess who ends up on the short-end of that stick?
Well put, Brad. Sometimes these threads make me paranoid - what if the person sitting next to me secretly wants to smash my fiddle? Shudder. I won't know until I read about it here!
... tell them to bring a tape recorder so they could learn at home?
surely someone who doesn't use their ears at a session isn't any more likely to use them at home...?
Just a thought
Mark
Actually these threads are where we DO express our frustration. It's group therapy, and it might actually assist us in refraining from breaking pint glasses over people's heads. Also, we don't feel like we're the only ones suffering. Ok... group hug.
And Crysania, you might be in denial about your success when you “pick up tunes by ear at sessions.” If no one seems to notice it might be because; everyone is too polite, you’re to intimidating for anyone to say something, or everyone else is doing it too. Maybe it works in your local session, but I assure you it wouldn’t go down well in most decent sessions around the world. Some of the scenarios described in this thread are extreme, but even the folks who think they have a “method” for learning tunes on the fly don’t really get away with it necessarily.
Like you, Crysania, my background is in classical music, and maybe that gave me a false sense of security in the first few years of learning ITM. I thought no one was noticing me because none of my polite cohorts said anything to discourage it. But once I left the safety of my home territory, I found out that I wasn’t in Kansas anymore. When I got the “evil eye” it made me think twice about how successful I really was with my own “method,” but it wasn’t until I was the one that knew the tunes and I was sitting next to my former self that the reality of my “method” came home to roost.
Recently we have had a lovely gal coming to our session regularly who knows a fair amount of tunes on the whistle but can’t seem to resist playing along with ones she doesn’t know. She does a fair job of it actually, but when she blows lightly on her whistle, thinking we won’t hear her, the pitch goes flat – and we DO hear her. I have been very reluctant to mention to her how annoying it can be, and I don’t want her to simply blow harder because she’s still guessing what the notes are after all. I don’t want her to stop coming to the session either, so I reluctantly end up tolerating it. I finally found my limit and mentioned it to her in private, employing all the diplomacy I could muster. She hasn’t stopped coming, but I feel bad because I might have hurt her feelings none-the-less. This is another reason people seem to get away with it when they “pick up tunes by ear at sessions” -- nobody wants to be the ogre.
And yes Crysania, we do encourage people to learn tunes by ear – that’s why God invented miniature mobile recording devices. And there are numerous tunes I have learned by simply listening to other people play them over a period of time and discovered I could play it too after a while. But this process takes way more time and shouldn’t be rushed. If you’re in a hurry, the recording devices are better.
Hey Brendan… is Peter a box player by any chance? Does his second name start with a “G”? If so, tell him I said hello.
I've actually been to many sessions and haven't had anyone take issues with me...perhaps it's because I don't simply noodle around until I find a right pitch. I listen, I find the tonic pitch, figure out the mode...then when I'm sure of some pitches, I play the snippets of the tune that I recognize(down the 8ve if it's in the high register) until I know an entire section...then I play out. I don't often get all that much of the tune on the first few hearings...it might take me three or four sessions to have picked up the tune by ear. Slower tunes I can usually have the whole thing by the third go-around. For instance, I easily picked up the tune, Return to Fingal at a session when they played it as a slower tune. I've picked up Inisheer by ear, as well as the tune Crested Hens (off a Solas album). I've also picked up some fairly simple polkas (Dennis Murphy's for instance) by the second time through. I don't have perfect ears, but years of ear training classes have aided in my picking up certain patterns and I'm learning to piece those patterns together to get the tunes faster and faster.
Now mind you...this is only something I do when I'm fairly sure of getting the tune. If it's a fast reel set, forget it. If I can't first figure out the tonic, forget it. I also tend to focus MOSTLY on picking up tunes in minor keys. The patterns are more familiar to me (I write in minor modes a lot and tend toward liking minor keys more than major ones) and I just hear much more easily. I even picked up a faster reel (Dunmore lasses) at a session long ago because it was in a minor-based key.
And heck, I've even been INVITED to figure out tunes by ear when I'm just sitting there listening. I thought that was a bit odd, but the guy thought I could do it, so he wanted to see if I could. Mostly, though, I just chill and listen if I don't know the tune.
As for recording discs...yeah I'd gladly do that. Unfortunately, the gods don't seem fit to provide me with a job so I'm lucky to even afford a whistle much less a recorder...
Another tactic is to slowly wind the sound down so the offender is much more exposed than they like. This also works for people who talk too loudly during tunes.
Offenders can soon be sent on their way by keeping changing keys - go up a tone a tune, then suddenly jump to Bb - that really throws them.
Try alternating tunes in 9/8 and 4/4 to confound them.
Good tactic, Geoff! I suppose the worst case scenario is doing all those volume and key change things (wicked, by the way!), and the offenders don't even notice! (OK, they just get that vague feeling that something's not right now when it was before ....ummmm...)
I suppose you got my sense of humour (eg in your familiar session crowd with no problems), whereby you say something like, "OK, Silver Spear, Donegal Reel, both in D, let's go.." ... then you immediately start off in Eb and watch their faces....
I got to test drive a tactic the other night when about 6 (yes 6!) Incredibly irritating *folk* musicians turned up to our weekly Irish trad session and then decided to start their own session on the other side of the pub..the very small pub. I admit I went about it underhanded and backstabbingish which is not great. Got mabye a little bit drunk, and proceeded in telling their friend (a really nice girl) that they had no clue, that they were rude, that if they didnt like the session then just dont come etc etc. And it worked - they havent been back...but she also hasnt been back which is a pity cause she is a sound person who really liked the tunes and was not irritating in the slightest. I guess I want to be that person to tell people that they are annoying me to their face, but I find it hard, I dont like being mean to people...wellll -not if I'm sobre anyways. Dont get me wrong - if someone is just clueless and ignorant and really f**cking it up for everybody and theve been given a chance to stop it but dont, then I wont bother talking to them at all so sometimes people think I'm a complete b*tch....and that isnt really the case its just that I have no energy and they would probably just make me angry anyway. No where did I leave my spoons!
Sometimes, you can be tactful and say "If you want to play, why not come and join us?". Mind you, this can be a bit risky and they might ruin your session. It often works though and a pleasnt evening can be had by all. Sometimes.
Oh no, they were already playing at our session, decided they didnt like it and started playing over the other side after that. Hmm I dont blame then for not liking our session. In order to enjoy our session, they would have had to have some taste...
I really don't understand this shyness about confronting people. Why would it have been so difficult to march up to these Six incredibly irritating *folk* musicians and just say, "hang on a minute there, you just can't do that. I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, but we're having a tune over the other side of the room there and in you lot come and ruin it. Come on now and have a bit of respect."
Chances are they were so dim that they never even noticed you over the other side of the bar and they'd shut up immediately in mortal embarrasment.
Yeah, I dont know why I findi t so hard Michael. Its just this little part of me that hates being mean to people - no matter how irritating they are. I have to get over it - cause I dont think they even noticed my staring daggers at them and shaking my head at them when I walked past. 'sigh' sometimes its hard being this nice.
Hang on second Jim Dorans, telling people “Silver Spear in D”, and then playing in Eb is a tactic ???
So if everyone plays in D and you play in Eb, they’re all off except you.
The scenario of the 6 musos starting their own sesh across the room happened to a session I attended in Galway back in 96. It was that Irish speaking pub on Dominick Street and the participants included Harry Bradley, Jackie Small and other great local players at the time. About 6 young players came in as we were playing and set up in the opposite corner and began to play over us. Jackie tried to encourage them to join us when they paused, but they ignored him. At this point Harry packed it in and left in disgust. Jackie said, "ah… here's to Irish youth." And with that we all finished our drinks and decided which pub to reassemble in.
"Hang on Jim Dorans..." Hey, BegF, that's not a tactic, that was me just referring to Geoff's key-changing tactics, but done in a friendly session with people I know, not as a tactic, just as a joke. Don't worry, wouldn't dare do it in Dublin!
I feel so guilty, lately, I've learnt most new tunes by picking them up at sessions, feeling my way quietly on my fiddle, then, after a couple of weeks, being able to play along. I've even been asked to try and pick up a tune that's being introduced to a regular session, which of course I'm happy to do. I confess to being one of those very keen learners who cannot put down her instrument but tries to play along - never improvising mind you - but listening to the whole tune once then joining in. I don't think I'm so scary that I wouldn't be told to shut up, so is there something wrong with the other players who put up with my behaviour?
Breandan, I just had to laugh at your mate's crack about the vaseline. I don't see that as being particularly rude, or at least any more rude than turning up with a bodhrán and spoiling a session. If you join in a session especially in Ireland or Scotland, let's face it you may find that people are slightly less than tactful when it comes to putting someone to rights. You learn these things the hard way, as most of us will no doubt testify. I remember meeting this lovely smiley old chap who played a huge bodhrán around various festivals in the South of England. He was, I'm sorry to say, not the most skilful player and extremely loud. I hadn't the heart to say anything, but 5 minutes into the session someone turned to him and told him to F*** off. I was a bit taken aback, until someone explained to me that he had been told to sling his hook at practically every session he ever went to. All the usual methods of cajoling, persuasion and advice had fallen on deaf ears so people had resorted to the old Anglo-Saxon vernacular.
2004 is a long time ago, but this is never a dead convesation. I have been on all sides of this discussion, as a new player, as an irritated player, as a session leader, as part of the problem, etc. I was priviledged to belong to a session in Chicago of Irish Musicians. There were the ploayers of note who we all emulated and loved them to play their best songs fast, ornamented and bold. Just those few though. The leader was 75 years old and had lived in Ireland until his 40's and knew all the songs and played with a sligo style bow.
He began by welcoming everyone and by the way just a word for the newcomers and the neer do wells (laughter!) He'd say, a session has a pusle, and if you can't feel it, clap soflty, hum the tune till it's yours, but don't try to kill the life of the session. If you don't know the tunes and you're just beginning, we have a back room where Jackie and Ned are teaching tonight. This is not a contest, so behave, take your turn, and let's do play tunes at a tempo we can stay with, and a volume that makes us sound damned good. I've had to get after some of yas before, and you finally have it. Shall we proceed
I have never had so much fun nor felt the lonliness of feeling like a fake there was an answer for everything and we all loved it.
"There were the ploayers of note who we all emulated and loved them to play their best songs fast, ornamented and bold. Just those few though. The leader was 75 years old and had lived in Ireland until his 40's and knew all the songs and played with a sligo style bow."
~~~
I'm confused... were they singing or playing or both?
Tactics
Tactics
I am a tolerant person, but last night for some reason I was pushed to the limits.
First up was a hijacking of a set of very twee Morrisish tunes. Most nights I would have smiled sweetly/gone to the bar/toilet etc, but for some reason I chirped in with a favourite tune of my daughters. There were a few bemused looks, then one by one everyone joined in. Then I started singing the words to the tune: 'There was a Princess long ago, long ago, long ago ...'. Everyone clattered to halt with confused looks, but fortunately they saw the funny side and we settled into a night of regular stuff.
We are also very tolerant of a very nice lady who plays a bodhran with an irregular, fibrilating style that bears no relation to the tunes being pliyed. I like to think of it as a character building exercise playing alongside her but last night, as a favour to everyone else and with great self-sacrifice, I asked her just after a set started if I could please have a go on her drum, as I was desperate to have a go. It worked, she stopped, lent me her instrument and I pretended to play.
Not sure if these tactics make me a villain or a hero, but they worked and I went home with a very smug, self-satisfied feeling. Roll on the next session.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Conway
Re: Tactics (villain or hero?)
When it comes to session intervention tactics; one man's villain is another man's hero. Anytime you become proactive in doing something about a problem in a session, no matter if it's even recognized by everyone present except the offender -- there will almost certainly be repercussions.
In a previous thread I contributed the following anecdote:
“There was one person who was bullying people in the session, playing real loud on the piano, drowning out our regular guitar back-up player, and other back-up players that were taking turns. I finally had to sit in front of the piano to prevent this person from pushing people out of her way so rudely. (She was built like a football player ok) She would actually push people out of her way while they were playing; it was like bumper-car fiddlers. She was big all right, but I’m built like a grizzly bear, (think big teddy bear,) and not easy to push around. Well anyway, this person, managed to enlist locals to come in and threaten me physically on her behalf. She also tried to get the publican to take action, but cooler heads prevailed. Eventually her disposition became evident to her advocates, and they lost their motivation to stand up for her. I did suffer from the residual damage for years to come, but at this point it’s just another session anecdote to tell.”
Taken from this thread: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/3165/comments
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tactics
Residual damage?
Provoking a bar room brawl is not the thing I had in mind and being where we are, that would be *very* easy. We've just moved to this venue and are not looking to be kicked out just yet. I'm after more subtle methods to bring a bit of sanity to a session that at times resembles a social services drop-in centre. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have it any other way ;-\
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Conway
Re: Tactics
I would love to find a tactic to stop this horrible whistle player. He drives me nuts. I can't sit beside him in a session and if there isn't enough people to drown him out, I physically can not play. He plays the same mess for every tune. Since he can not discriminate between tunes, he thinks he knows all of them. The session leaders won't due a thing, and the guy needs serious help. He actually uses rolls to bluff a tune. It's all over the place. To make matters worse, he isn't even a nice guy. He's miserable, but easily offended. Since I'm a quarter of his age, and not a session leader, it would be in bad taste for me to say anything... Gotta tactic for me?
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Maple
Re: Tactics
Tell him to start a tune.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Mad Baloney
Re: Tactics
I have become, in the sessions that I do, the guy that "sorts people out." Unfortunately, by the time I decide to act, I'm usually so annoyed that the method is far from subtle. For example, I ask the offending person to stop playing. But is this really so bad? I'm I as much of an a-hole as I feel immediately after evicting someone? The rest of the folks in the session are glad for it, anyway.
It's a subtle thing figuring out whether you belong in a session or not, I think. Does someone who plays guitar well but not know trad belong in a session? I guess it depends on the level of the session, but in general, I would say no. At the same time, anyone learning a melody instrument can sit in on any session relatively unobtrusively if they lay back and join in on the tunes they know. People I end up having words with tend to have a simmilar attitude in that they look at a session as a venue for their personal experience (at the expense of the experience of anyone else, or the greater good.) Such folks usually don't get subtle points, anyway.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Chris McGrath
Re: Tactics
Chris, completely off topic, but I love the Maple Leaf, one of my all time fave recordings!!! That's all, nice to see you here.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Tactics
I once posted on a ITM site such as this about a local whistle player who was learning to play, knew a few tunes, but played with every tune anyway (in the manner maple describes.) And I think he read it.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tactics
this is very important, you must learn how to tell these people to shut up. Forget trying to be nice, they are antisocial gits and they need telling. Stop pussy footing and put rour foot downy
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Tactics for a small town
We have a guy who plays along to tunes he doesn't know week after week and it usually hurts the session. And the guys I hang with complain about it all the time, myself included. One guy suggested stopping in the middle of the tune and asking this offender to hear his "version", knowing damn well he doesn't have one. Busted!
Well it hasn't been done yet but it could be a funny tactic for getting players to stop wrecking it for others when they don't know the tune.
We used to have this other guy who would start lots of tunes that he could barely play himself...ugh! I used to ask him if he ever practiced in a nice, polite manner. It seemed like he would use the session as his practice time and feel the need to run through repertoire, which luckily wasn't very big. Once I had to suggest he let one of the boys start a tune (BTW- the boys are really good musicians) One tactic I've tried with this person is recommending lessons.......but it didn't work........he still sounds like he did 3 years ago, even after the lessons.........but at least he hasn't been around for a while
The big problem is that none of us "own" or started this session so we can't really tell people to stop doing certain things. If I was planning on sticking around VT for good, I'd start one with the boys and stop all my complaining
TGIF...time for a stiff drink and a percocet!
Joyce
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by JMH
Re: Tactics
LOL...Michael I wish you could visit our session and set some people straight
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by JMH
Re: Tactics
I remember way back when it was me wrecking the session... luckily I wised up before my whistle was shoved somewhere that the sun never shines. I remember sitting there (this is at least 20 years ago BTW) I was thinking; wow... this looks fun... I wish I knew more tunes... hey, this one sounds easy... maybe I can do it if I play quietly. Before long one of the musos turned and gave me the evil eye... that was all it took thank God. But I think that's the crux of how to deal with it -- exposure. Tell the king he has no clothes on... sort of thing.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tactics
The diplomatic approach Michael, eh?
Maple, you could ask your whistle player to repeat a tune after a set on his own, 'cos you thought he was really good. Or would that just encourage him?
Martin
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Conway
Re: Tactics
I tried that once Conway. The offender replied, "Oh, I don't really know that one yet... I almost got it though... I'll have it next time." Then they think to themselves, "Wow... he thought I was really good... I'm really good at faking it... no one notices... they think I'm brilliant... I AM BRILLIANT... THIS IS GREAT!"
Oh the humanity.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tactics
At what was-to-become a great session once, there was a player next to me that obviously was out of place with a very loud saxophone. I decided to do something about it. Everytime the instrument was raised I started a new conversation about this and that, eventually the player left saying "maybe next time you can find someone else to practice your english on". The tactic worked, and everyone else at the session was relieved, but I must say I felt awkward about it afterwards, and any such tactic should only be used with discretion and when urgently needed.
The evil eye, or even just a tilt of the head with a curious expression provides a more direct feedback to things that are out of line. I have, just like Jack and any of us probably, been on the receiving line of this on occations where I have been over-tempted to stretch limits (e.g. join in jamming fiddle- chords to tunes I only know fairly well.)
I`d say giving this (conscious or un-) feedback is much more honest and upfront than not providing it or frowning behind somebody`s back, and learning to at least read these signs is a part of becoming a good sessioneer. (Boyscout salute)
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by MrGanAinm
Re: Tactics
I once scared away a loud guitar player who knew not a single tune (but played them all anyway) from a session for at least six months with the following conversation.
Him: Gosh, the tunes are really hard to hear!
Me: Yeah, it's true eh? You know what I do when I'm having trouble following the melodies? I stop playing. Maybe you could try that.
After which he thought I was the rudest, most uppity snarky b*tch he'd ever met and hated me for months (thankfully in the privacy of his own home). His hatred of me fuelled him, just like in a kung fu movie, and he trained himself rigorously for months before coming back for a re-match. He was still too loud, but he knew some tunes and he was playing actual Irish rhythms in DADGAD.
So if you need to insult someone and make him hate you (if you can deal with that kind of karma) cheer up! You are probably doing HIM a favour, not to mention your session.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Tactics
What's wrong with a quiet word in someone's ear - simply tell them the truth without making a big deal out of it?
WRT the bodhran player - we were once tormented with a similarly disjointed female australian at a session in Ballina. I went up to her and quietly expressed my sympathy about her medical condition, and how it must affect her rhythm - wasn't long before she huffed and disappeared never to darken our session door again. :~)Or yet again a mate [bodhran player] Peter who asked a Yank whether or not she used vaseline [ a form of petroleum jelly ] on the bodhran and she asked - "you mean on the skin to make it soft?" Peter's reply - "No on the rim so that when I shove it up your a##e it won't hurt too much."
If that doesn't work then the public humiliation thing might be the next tactic - Can you play another instrument? Can you play far away? For f**k sake will you ever shut up ...........
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by breandan
Re: Tactics
Lets face it there are some people out there who are stone deaf when it comes to music and playing . And no matter how enthusiastic they are , how much dedicated practice they put,in they will never be any good at it.Sorry but its a fact of life.
I'm not saying there intensions are not honerable, and there love and joy of music is just as intense as somebody who CAN play well, but there it is.
For example, I Can't play football to save my life, I've got two left feet, I will NEVER play for England. I might love football (actually I don't) which means the only way I can enjoy it is by being a spectator. I rest my case Ma Lord.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Tactics
The only trouble is where do you draw the line.
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Tactics
My most rebarbitive comment was to a dire "singer/guitarist" (very loose definition), who, upon approaching the money pot to buy himself a drink, was told by me "Sorry, for musicians only." Pretty sadistic, I know, but I was speaking on behalf of the other session members as well as a personal catharsis. Made no difference to him though - he just smiled and carried on, bought himself a drink from the pot. Skin like rhinoceros. Looks like one as well mind you...
# Posted on May 28th 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Tactics
Interesting note...people insist on others learning by ear but don't want them to try it at their sessions? Hmm...I sometimes try to pick up tunes by ear at sessions (only at fairly large ones where I can easily be buried), but I have a method that doesn't seem too obtrusive to others. No one's given me the evil eye that I can tell!
We had a guy at a session I used to go to...a whistle player who also played bodhran. He played loud. REALLY loud. His whistle was really sharp and he didn't seem to notice it. One of the guys at the session talked to him before one once, told him that maybe if he played a little softer the whistle wouldn't go so sharp. He also played bodhran a bit too loudly (this would be an understatement...he played it like it we were some sort of rock band)...and that was mentioned too. Last I knew, he was getting better at the volume issue and hopefully the fiddle player who wanted to take a pen knife to his bodhran doesn't want to anymore!
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Crysania
Re: Tactics
Just been reading through a few of the recent 'moan and whinge' threads, including this one, and so much of the stuff which makes a session un-enjoyable, annoying, irritating, frustrating, making me wonder, "Is it just me, or is this crap really happening? ... and should-I-just-knock-it-on-the head forevermore?" - just rings so true! My latest tactic is simple : I don't bother going to play at local sessions any more! Sometimes enough is enough.
I can now spend more time with the band, playing music, enjoying it, and just as importantly, having full control over it. Will still go to some of the good sessions in London or Dublin, where I will either play or just listen, depending on the situation.
Jim
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Tactics
It's interesting how a web forum filled with people that love sessions spend so much time talking about the bad things about them. But I guess it's kind of like writing songs. You don't write songs if you're happy. If the session is great, there's no need to talk about it, I guess.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: Tactics
Sorry, No matter how clueless someone is, suggesting that your going to shove anything up their ass gives them the right to break a pint glass over your head. There are far more effective ways that don't earmark you as a total prick in this small musical community. If your passive-aggresive, hint-dropping, back-stabbing techniques don't work; why don't you just be honest & staightforward? You can just ask someone to stop, tell them their welcome to listen, tell them to bring a tape recorder so they can learn at home. It's much more respectable & effective. Remember, that idiot may become a really good player down the road. Guess who ends up on the short-end of that stick?
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Mad Baloney
Re: Tactics
Well put, Brad. Sometimes these threads make me paranoid - what if the person sitting next to me secretly wants to smash my fiddle? Shudder. I won't know until I read about it here!
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Tactics
... tell them to bring a tape recorder so they could learn at home?
surely someone who doesn't use their ears at a session isn't any more likely to use them at home...?
Just a thought
Mark
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Tactics (or group therapy?)
Actually these threads are where we DO express our frustration. It's group therapy, and it might actually assist us in refraining from breaking pint glasses over people's heads. Also, we don't feel like we're the only ones suffering. Ok... group hug.
And Crysania, you might be in denial about your success when you “pick up tunes by ear at sessions.” If no one seems to notice it might be because; everyone is too polite, you’re to intimidating for anyone to say something, or everyone else is doing it too. Maybe it works in your local session, but I assure you it wouldn’t go down well in most decent sessions around the world. Some of the scenarios described in this thread are extreme, but even the folks who think they have a “method” for learning tunes on the fly don’t really get away with it necessarily.
Like you, Crysania, my background is in classical music, and maybe that gave me a false sense of security in the first few years of learning ITM. I thought no one was noticing me because none of my polite cohorts said anything to discourage it. But once I left the safety of my home territory, I found out that I wasn’t in Kansas anymore. When I got the “evil eye” it made me think twice about how successful I really was with my own “method,” but it wasn’t until I was the one that knew the tunes and I was sitting next to my former self that the reality of my “method” came home to roost.
Recently we have had a lovely gal coming to our session regularly who knows a fair amount of tunes on the whistle but can’t seem to resist playing along with ones she doesn’t know. She does a fair job of it actually, but when she blows lightly on her whistle, thinking we won’t hear her, the pitch goes flat – and we DO hear her. I have been very reluctant to mention to her how annoying it can be, and I don’t want her to simply blow harder because she’s still guessing what the notes are after all. I don’t want her to stop coming to the session either, so I reluctantly end up tolerating it. I finally found my limit and mentioned it to her in private, employing all the diplomacy I could muster. She hasn’t stopped coming, but I feel bad because I might have hurt her feelings none-the-less. This is another reason people seem to get away with it when they “pick up tunes by ear at sessions” -- nobody wants to be the ogre.
And yes Crysania, we do encourage people to learn tunes by ear – that’s why God invented miniature mobile recording devices. And there are numerous tunes I have learned by simply listening to other people play them over a period of time and discovered I could play it too after a while. But this process takes way more time and shouldn’t be rushed. If you’re in a hurry, the recording devices are better.
Hey Brendan… is Peter a box player by any chance? Does his second name start with a “G”? If so, tell him I said hello.
# Posted on May 29th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tactics
Ha ha...this thread conjured up a funny memory from Willie Week last year.
Anybody else have a "Ghost Fiddler" run-in?
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by _Steph_
Re: Tactics
I've actually been to many sessions and haven't had anyone take issues with me...perhaps it's because I don't simply noodle around until I find a right pitch. I listen, I find the tonic pitch, figure out the mode...then when I'm sure of some pitches, I play the snippets of the tune that I recognize(down the 8ve if it's in the high register) until I know an entire section...then I play out. I don't often get all that much of the tune on the first few hearings...it might take me three or four sessions to have picked up the tune by ear. Slower tunes I can usually have the whole thing by the third go-around. For instance, I easily picked up the tune, Return to Fingal at a session when they played it as a slower tune. I've picked up Inisheer by ear, as well as the tune Crested Hens (off a Solas album). I've also picked up some fairly simple polkas (Dennis Murphy's for instance) by the second time through. I don't have perfect ears, but years of ear training classes have aided in my picking up certain patterns and I'm learning to piece those patterns together to get the tunes faster and faster.
Now mind you...this is only something I do when I'm fairly sure of getting the tune. If it's a fast reel set, forget it. If I can't first figure out the tonic, forget it. I also tend to focus MOSTLY on picking up tunes in minor keys. The patterns are more familiar to me (I write in minor modes a lot and tend toward liking minor keys more than major ones) and I just hear much more easily. I even picked up a faster reel (Dunmore lasses) at a session long ago because it was in a minor-based key.
And heck, I've even been INVITED to figure out tunes by ear when I'm just sitting there listening. I thought that was a bit odd, but the guy thought I could do it, so he wanted to see if I could. Mostly, though, I just chill and listen if I don't know the tune.
As for recording discs...yeah I'd gladly do that. Unfortunately, the gods don't seem fit to provide me with a job so I'm lucky to even afford a whistle much less a recorder...
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Crysania
Re: Tactics
Another tactic is to slowly wind the sound down so the offender is much more exposed than they like. This also works for people who talk too loudly during tunes.
Offenders can soon be sent on their way by keeping changing keys - go up a tone a tune, then suddenly jump to Bb - that really throws them.
Try alternating tunes in 9/8 and 4/4 to confound them.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Tactics
But would that tactic work on you too Geoff? Or is this why you know it's so effective?
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tactics
Good tactic, Geoff! I suppose the worst case scenario is doing all those volume and key change things (wicked, by the way!), and the offenders don't even notice! (OK, they just get that vague feeling that something's not right now when it was before ....ummmm...)
I suppose you got my sense of humour (eg in your familiar session crowd with no problems), whereby you say something like, "OK, Silver Spear, Donegal Reel, both in D, let's go.." ... then you immediately start off in Eb and watch their faces....
Jim
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Tactics
I got to test drive a tactic the other night when about 6 (yes 6!) Incredibly irritating *folk* musicians turned up to our weekly Irish trad session and then decided to start their own session on the other side of the pub..the very small pub. I admit I went about it underhanded and backstabbingish which is not great. Got mabye a little bit drunk, and proceeded in telling their friend (a really nice girl) that they had no clue, that they were rude, that if they didnt like the session then just dont come etc etc. And it worked - they havent been back...but she also hasnt been back which is a pity cause she is a sound person who really liked the tunes and was not irritating in the slightest. I guess I want to be that person to tell people that they are annoying me to their face, but I find it hard, I dont like being mean to people...wellll -not if I'm sobre anyways. Dont get me wrong - if someone is just clueless and ignorant and really f**cking it up for everybody and theve been given a chance to stop it but dont, then I wont bother talking to them at all so sometimes people think I'm a complete b*tch....and that isnt really the case its just that I have no energy and they would probably just make me angry anyway. No where did I leave my spoons!
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Tactics
Sometimes, you can be tactful and say "If you want to play, why not come and join us?". Mind you, this can be a bit risky and they might ruin your session. It often works though and a pleasnt evening can be had by all. Sometimes.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Johannes J
Re: Tactics
Oh no, they were already playing at our session, decided they didnt like it and started playing over the other side after that. Hmm I dont blame then for not liking our session. In order to enjoy our session, they would have had to have some taste...
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Tactics
I really don't understand this shyness about confronting people. Why would it have been so difficult to march up to these Six incredibly irritating *folk* musicians and just say, "hang on a minute there, you just can't do that. I'm not meaning to be rude or anything, but we're having a tune over the other side of the room there and in you lot come and ruin it. Come on now and have a bit of respect."
Chances are they were so dim that they never even noticed you over the other side of the bar and they'd shut up immediately in mortal embarrasment.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Tactics
cross post there, but "hang on a minute there..." still stands
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Tactics
Yeah, I dont know why I findi t so hard Michael. Its just this little part of me that hates being mean to people - no matter how irritating they are. I have to get over it - cause I dont think they even noticed my staring daggers at them and shaking my head at them when I walked past. 'sigh' sometimes its hard being this nice.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Tactics
Hahahaha! Michael, I assure you, Beebs is not shy.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by Dow
Re: Tactics
Shyness in nice, but shyness can stop you, from doing all the things in life you'd like too.
Next time that little person in your brain pops up and whispers in your ear, "don't be mean, don't be mean." Remind him that ,"they started it".
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Tactics
Hang on second Jim Dorans, telling people “Silver Spear in D”, and then playing in Eb is a tactic ???
So if everyone plays in D and you play in Eb, they’re all off except you.
# Posted on May 30th 2004 by BegF
Re: Tactics
The scenario of the 6 musos starting their own sesh across the room happened to a session I attended in Galway back in 96. It was that Irish speaking pub on Dominick Street and the participants included Harry Bradley, Jackie Small and other great local players at the time. About 6 young players came in as we were playing and set up in the opposite corner and began to play over us. Jackie tried to encourage them to join us when they paused, but they ignored him. At this point Harry packed it in and left in disgust. Jackie said, "ah… here's to Irish youth." And with that we all finished our drinks and decided which pub to reassemble in.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tactics
"Hang on Jim Dorans..." Hey, BegF, that's not a tactic, that was me just referring to Geoff's key-changing tactics, but done in a friendly session with people I know, not as a tactic, just as a joke. Don't worry, wouldn't dare do it in Dublin!
Jim
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Tactics
Fair enough.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by BegF
Re: Tactics
I feel so guilty, lately, I've learnt most new tunes by picking them up at sessions, feeling my way quietly on my fiddle, then, after a couple of weeks, being able to play along. I've even been asked to try and pick up a tune that's being introduced to a regular session, which of course I'm happy to do. I confess to being one of those very keen learners who cannot put down her instrument but tries to play along - never improvising mind you - but listening to the whole tune once then joining in. I don't think I'm so scary that I wouldn't be told to shut up, so is there something wrong with the other players who put up with my behaviour?
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Cath
Re: Tactics
Breandan, I just had to laugh at your mate's crack about the vaseline. I don't see that as being particularly rude, or at least any more rude than turning up with a bodhrán and spoiling a session. If you join in a session especially in Ireland or Scotland, let's face it you may find that people are slightly less than tactful when it comes to putting someone to rights. You learn these things the hard way, as most of us will no doubt testify. I remember meeting this lovely smiley old chap who played a huge bodhrán around various festivals in the South of England. He was, I'm sorry to say, not the most skilful player and extremely loud. I hadn't the heart to say anything, but 5 minutes into the session someone turned to him and told him to F*** off. I was a bit taken aback, until someone explained to me that he had been told to sling his hook at practically every session he ever went to. All the usual methods of cajoling, persuasion and advice had fallen on deaf ears so people had resorted to the old Anglo-Saxon vernacular.
# Posted on May 31st 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Tactics
MG -
If it's not love, it's the bomb that will bring us together.
# Posted on June 2nd 2004 by Chris McGrath
Re: Tactics
Love will tear us apart
# Posted on June 3rd 2004 by Mad Baloney
Re: Tactics
2004 is a long time ago, but this is never a dead convesation. I have been on all sides of this discussion, as a new player, as an irritated player, as a session leader, as part of the problem, etc. I was priviledged to belong to a session in Chicago of Irish Musicians. There were the ploayers of note who we all emulated and loved them to play their best songs fast, ornamented and bold. Just those few though. The leader was 75 years old and had lived in Ireland until his 40's and knew all the songs and played with a sligo style bow.
He began by welcoming everyone and by the way just a word for the newcomers and the neer do wells (laughter!) He'd say, a session has a pusle, and if you can't feel it, clap soflty, hum the tune till it's yours, but don't try to kill the life of the session. If you don't know the tunes and you're just beginning, we have a back room where Jackie and Ned are teaching tonight. This is not a contest, so behave, take your turn, and let's do play tunes at a tempo we can stay with, and a volume that makes us sound damned good. I've had to get after some of yas before, and you finally have it. Shall we proceed
I have never had so much fun nor felt the lonliness of feeling like a fake there was an answer for everything and we all loved it.
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by rtclark22
Re: Tactics
"There were the ploayers of note who we all emulated and loved them to play their best songs fast, ornamented and bold. Just those few though. The leader was 75 years old and had lived in Ireland until his 40's and knew all the songs and played with a sligo style bow."
~~~
I'm confused... were they singing or playing or both?
# Posted on November 25th 2007 by Phantom Button