This follows on from the first thread by this name #1 posted in February. I'm posting this for Max's benefit really. We all went to see Lunasa last night and I was standing quite near the front so I could see what all the players were doing. It was a great gig.
The last thread on this topic was inconclusive I thought, and didn't really get down to the nitty gritty of technique. The key to it is a relaxed but controlled wrist. Donough's triplet playing is nothing unusual really - a lot of backers use the technique but some people do it differently to others. It's just that Donough uses it frequently and to particularly good effect.
When strumming triplets in reels, he is *not* playing a group of four 16th notes bringing him back to a downstroke on the beat like some people do, so he's *not* going |DUDU D/U/D/U/DU| or |DUDU (3DUD DU|. He might do this on occasion I dunno, but not in the gig I saw.
Instead he consistently alters his pick pattern so that he ends up playing an upstroke on the beat, and this means that he has to let the upstroke hang there for a while so that he can start his normal pattern again: |DUDU (3DUD U2|. On that upstroke his right hand comes further up than normal and hangs briefly, level with the top of the body of his guitar (for more of this technique, listen to the bouzouki playing of Luke Plumb). It sounds like he's doing something faster and more complicated because he lets the pick make contact with as many strings as possible on that last upstroke, and that's what gives that "thrrrum!" Spanish roll type sound.
Sometimes he plays them in quick succession: |(3DUD U2 (3DUD U2|(3DUD U2 (3DUD U2|... If you hang on to the 1st downstroke of the triplet a bit longer, you can imitate the rhythm of a roll on a fiddle, as opposed to a bowed triplet, so it comes out as |DUDU DU/D/U2|.
Sometimes he'll mute the strings dramatically immediately after the last upstroke, which gives a nice punchy ending to a tune for going into the next one in the set. But again, I can think of other backers who do this.
Here's a link to the previous thread: http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2914/comments#comment57524
I forgot to mention that he uses a pick for all this energetic triplet stuff. Sometimes he'll use fingerstyle but it tends to be in slower tunes, in which case his pick get stuck in his gob ready to be taken out if needed.
Dow
I found your detailed observations very interesting and will take this further when I go to Nelson for the Ceol Aneas where he's doing the guitar workshops over the weekend. If I can add anything to what you have detailed I'll pass it on. Don't suppose you are going over for that...?
(From the other) Donough
hmm.thx indeed as odono says.. for the DUDU UD UUD etc etc. of course we all know you didnt actually SEE him do every d and u and d, but you felt when the energy was upbeat or downbeat .. we are talking, are we not, about musical energy, emphasis, definition.......the phrasing of a tune
.hmm.......to phrase using an upstroke, it's syncopated and allows the listener (and the player) to hmm define where the downbeat is,, by "catching up" with an upstroke, the players involved all know where the core rythem is. hmm. let me try to put it another way... a player who is very confident about the beat can upstroke whenever he wants and whereever, he wants (and attract attention to his corner) I know singers like this, some who use it well , others not so, cuz they alert your attentino to their interpretation of the rythem. but are not neccessarily able to let this tactic work to finale, or conclusion, and we are left listening to hmm.. anyway my point here is I believe the upstroke needs to be given utmost respect for it is a powerful tool........hmm......
sorry Im hmming a lot because I have often thought about this stuff......so ,, tHEN you get the Downstroker. the one that insists the beat and really drives it home with a ONe two34.....thses players tend to be able to carry everyone else forward........push it a bit........i think the blues is a lot like this.........
i will leave off inconclusively in the hope that people have lots to say about this stuff.. as a plectrum player in a bowed world i find it immensely interesting, and nobody in my suburb seems to be interested in this topic....
No, I really am a sad case and was watching exactly every D and U. I probably never blinked for the whole gig! I wasn't talking about upbeat or downbeat energy, whatever that is (?).
I like your terms "upstroker" and "downstroker". I'm a downstroker myself. Too much syncopated upstroke rhythm annoys me. It's okay in small doses. I was going to mention that well-executed and appropriately-placed upstroking is another feature of Donough Hennessy's playing. I personally wouldn't want to play like that myself though. I only ever play in sessions, and if you're playing with another backer it can make the rhythm sound messy if you're doing wildly different things. Downstroking's safer. At least with Lunasa all the arrangements are worked out beforehand and the bass and guitar rhythms can agree on their emphasis on or off the beat.
hah dow you really are very funny and make me laugh a lot. Its a good thing. bUt seriously i do think alot about the downstroke upstrokething and I think, also , downstroke is a lot safer and, hmm less egotistical, and, well we all know waht a mess egos can make of music.......
oh gawd you know what kind of a rise we're gonna get now out of 'downstrokers " and upstrokers.
yes that did occur to me! LOL. BTW DO'D I won't be at Ceol Aneas this year as I'm skint, but Beebs and I are going to head that way sometime in the not to near or distant future [he said vaguely]. I'd also love to go to WA but I might as well have a trip home to the UK, Perth's so damn far away.
hey man. you are the center of your universe so dont get, like, so far away-ish......meanwhile. if you ever do plan to hit WA remeber BC is only a border away ..........
Since when was WA (West Australia) a border away from BC. I am assuming that BC doesn't mean "Before Christ". We aren't that primitive in Perth (WA).
BTW I would say that downstrokers predominate here........
How much upstroking do you reckon you have to do to qualify as an upstroker though? Maybe the term needs to be defined more strictly. My upstroking frequency levels hover around "very rarely" to "never" on the up/down-stroking scale. I reckon that makes me a downstroker for sure I know that I would call anyone an upstroker who upstrokes at frequency levels that are irritating to me personally. But now I feel as though I've hijacked a potentially good term coined by vboyd100 (your screen name sounds like a character off Star Trek - one of Spock's mates maybe).
you read it 97 times? man ths dedication! Geography lesson coming up. all disinterested parties may disembark;;;
no Bc is our dumb colonial name :British Columbia/ i knoe what british means, but Colimbia? Was he an offspring of Columbus, as in Christopher?
so , you have, I think, WA,
Hey Donough, I resisted the temptation to deliberately misunderstand you and reply to your post "no, I wasn't saying that Western Australia is a border away from BC..." but that would have just been too annoying
OH i am sorry bout the geogrphry mixup............but arent all our names borrowed anyway,,,, New south Wales, british Columbia, Victora, we also have the Georgia Strait from King George Sydney, New Zealand (what the hell does "zealand mean - ah wait it has to do with Ze land . the Dutch empkire ?\
d'dang I'd like to be my own person sometimes, not just, always, an offshoot ...........
I brought up a similar question on the Lunasa website a while back, but couldn’t figure it out
Myself, thanks Dow for going to the bother.
By the way, by upstrokers do you mean, those who use a lot of upstrokes ON the beat, I would do this sometimes for Jigs
(and slip-jigs), ie DUD UDU emphasising the 2nd upstroke (as an alternative to DUD DUD).
Although I think it’s important to follow the rhythm of the tune rather than apply a Jig rhythm to jigs
and applying a reel rhythm to reels.
I agree that overuse of these “flourishes” can be annoying, but can be very effectivce if used occasionally
in the right place.
Odono, where is Ceol Aneas, not in Ireland I suppose - would love the opportunity of a workshop with
the likes of Donnogh Hennessy
Ooh, and look at this too - it shows that BC was (indirectly) named after Columbus. And look at the title: "Chattering Magpie" - coincidence isn't it? Why do I always hijack my own threads?...
BegF, DUD DUD and DUD UDU in jigs is a difference in *standard* picking pattern, rather than cross rhythms and syncopation which was what we were on about. I think this is only really an issue for reels. People who consistently play |DudU duDu|dUdu Dudu| and similar, the *whole* time. It can really ditract from the beauty of a tune.
(DEtract). Sometimes when I hear people overusing this I keep expecting someone to break out into rap, moving their shoulders and neck along to the jerky rhythm, or start breakdancing to it. It's so naff.
I know, poor poor Donough. I'm such a saddo, but at least I admit it. I can't listen to a concert just for fun like you Michael me old china, I'm too much of a technique geek.
Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
This follows on from the first thread by this name #1 posted in February. I'm posting this for Max's benefit really. We all went to see Lunasa last night and I was standing quite near the front so I could see what all the players were doing. It was a great gig.
The last thread on this topic was inconclusive I thought, and didn't really get down to the nitty gritty of technique. The key to it is a relaxed but controlled wrist. Donough's triplet playing is nothing unusual really - a lot of backers use the technique but some people do it differently to others. It's just that Donough uses it frequently and to particularly good effect.
When strumming triplets in reels, he is *not* playing a group of four 16th notes bringing him back to a downstroke on the beat like some people do, so he's *not* going |DUDU D/U/D/U/DU| or |DUDU (3DUD DU|. He might do this on occasion I dunno, but not in the gig I saw.
Instead he consistently alters his pick pattern so that he ends up playing an upstroke on the beat, and this means that he has to let the upstroke hang there for a while so that he can start his normal pattern again: |DUDU (3DUD U2|. On that upstroke his right hand comes further up than normal and hangs briefly, level with the top of the body of his guitar (for more of this technique, listen to the bouzouki playing of Luke Plumb). It sounds like he's doing something faster and more complicated because he lets the pick make contact with as many strings as possible on that last upstroke, and that's what gives that "thrrrum!" Spanish roll type sound.
Sometimes he plays them in quick succession: |(3DUD U2 (3DUD U2|(3DUD U2 (3DUD U2|... If you hang on to the 1st downstroke of the triplet a bit longer, you can imitate the rhythm of a roll on a fiddle, as opposed to a bowed triplet, so it comes out as |DUDU DU/D/U2|.
Sometimes he'll mute the strings dramatically immediately after the last upstroke, which gives a nice punchy ending to a tune for going into the next one in the set. But again, I can think of other backers who do this.
Hope this is useful to someone out there.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Here's a link to the previous thread:
http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2914/comments#comment57524
I forgot to mention that he uses a pick for all this energetic triplet stuff. Sometimes he'll use fingerstyle but it tends to be in slower tunes, in which case his pick get stuck in his gob ready to be taken out if needed.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Dow
I found your detailed observations very interesting and will take this further when I go to Nelson for the Ceol Aneas where he's doing the guitar workshops over the weekend. If I can add anything to what you have detailed I'll pass it on. Don't suppose you are going over for that...?
(From the other) Donough
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Donough
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
hmm.thx indeed as odono says.. for the DUDU UD UUD etc etc. of course we all know you didnt actually SEE him do every d and u and d, but you felt when the energy was upbeat or downbeat .. we are talking, are we not, about musical energy, emphasis, definition.......the phrasing of a tune
.hmm.......to phrase using an upstroke, it's syncopated and allows the listener (and the player) to hmm define where the downbeat is,, by "catching up" with an upstroke, the players involved all know where the core rythem is. hmm. let me try to put it another way... a player who is very confident about the beat can upstroke whenever he wants and whereever, he wants (and attract attention to his corner) I know singers like this, some who use it well , others not so, cuz they alert your attentino to their interpretation of the rythem. but are not neccessarily able to let this tactic work to finale, or conclusion, and we are left listening to hmm.. anyway my point here is I believe the upstroke needs to be given utmost respect for it is a powerful tool........hmm......
sorry Im hmming a lot because I have often thought about this stuff......so ,, tHEN you get the Downstroker. the one that insists the beat and really drives it home with a ONe two34.....thses players tend to be able to carry everyone else forward........push it a bit........i think the blues is a lot like this.........
i will leave off inconclusively in the hope that people have lots to say about this stuff.. as a plectrum player in a bowed world i find it immensely interesting, and nobody in my suburb seems to be interested in this topic....
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Hey, Thanks Dow! That makes it all a lot clearer. I can't wait till Lunasa comes down here. And they are in October!
-Max
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
No, I really am a sad case and was watching exactly every D and U. I probably never blinked for the whole gig! I wasn't talking about upbeat or downbeat energy, whatever that is (?).
I like your terms "upstroker" and "downstroker". I'm a downstroker myself. Too much syncopated upstroke rhythm annoys me. It's okay in small doses. I was going to mention that well-executed and appropriately-placed upstroking is another feature of Donough Hennessy's playing. I personally wouldn't want to play like that myself though. I only ever play in sessions, and if you're playing with another backer it can make the rhythm sound messy if you're doing wildly different things. Downstroking's safer. At least with Lunasa all the arrangements are worked out beforehand and the bass and guitar rhythms can agree on their emphasis on or off the beat.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
hah dow you really are very funny and make me laugh a lot. Its a good thing. bUt seriously i do think alot about the downstroke upstrokething and I think, also , downstroke is a lot safer and, hmm less egotistical, and, well we all know waht a mess egos can make of music.......
oh gawd you know what kind of a rise we're gonna get now out of 'downstrokers " and upstrokers.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
hey man. you are the center of your universe so dont get, like, so far away-ish......meanwhile. if you ever do plan to hit WA remeber BC is only a border away ..........
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Hehe. You confused me there for a minute. I had to reread your post 97 times. WA is where Seattle is isn't it? I was referring to "Western Australia".
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Since when was WA (West Australia) a border away from BC. I am assuming that BC doesn't mean "Before Christ". We aren't that primitive in Perth (WA).
BTW I would say that downstrokers predominate here........
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Donough
I just hate that; when I am too slow to post replies and someone else has jumped in and your contribution seems wasted.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Donough
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
How much upstroking do you reckon you have to do to qualify as an upstroker though? Maybe the term needs to be defined more strictly. My upstroking frequency levels hover around "very rarely" to "never" on the up/down-stroking scale. I reckon that makes me a downstroker for sure
I know that I would call anyone an upstroker who upstrokes at frequency levels that are irritating to me personally. But now I feel as though I've hijacked a potentially good term coined by vboyd100 (your screen name sounds like a character off Star Trek - one of Spock's mates maybe).
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
I'll have had a stroke myself by the time I can master all these aspects of the music.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
you read it 97 times? man ths dedication! Geography lesson coming up. all disinterested parties may disembark;;;
no Bc is our dumb colonial name :British Columbia/ i knoe what british means, but Colimbia? Was he an offspring of Columbus, as in Christopher?
so , you have, I think, WA,
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Hey Donough, I resisted the temptation to deliberately misunderstand you and reply to your post "no, I wasn't saying that Western Australia is a border away from BC..." but that would have just been too annoying
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
OH i am sorry bout the geogrphry mixup............but arent all our names borrowed anyway,,,, New south Wales, british Columbia, Victora, we also have the Georgia Strait from King George Sydney, New Zealand (what the hell does "zealand mean - ah wait it has to do with Ze land . the Dutch empkire ?\
d'dang I'd like to be my own person sometimes, not just, always, an offshoot ...........
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
This is so nothing to do with the thread, but anyone into trivia nights, I found this info on the naming of British Columbia interesting: http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/provinces/g/bc.htm
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
I brought up a similar question on the Lunasa website a while back, but couldn’t figure it out
Myself, thanks Dow for going to the bother.
By the way, by upstrokers do you mean, those who use a lot of upstrokes ON the beat, I would do this sometimes for Jigs
(and slip-jigs), ie DUD UDU emphasising the 2nd upstroke (as an alternative to DUD DUD).
Although I think it’s important to follow the rhythm of the tune rather than apply a Jig rhythm to jigs
and applying a reel rhythm to reels.
I agree that overuse of these “flourishes” can be annoying, but can be very effectivce if used occasionally
in the right place.
Odono, where is Ceol Aneas, not in Ireland I suppose - would love the opportunity of a workshop with
the likes of Donnogh Hennessy
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by BegF
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Ooh, and look at this too - it shows that BC was (indirectly) named after Columbus. And look at the title: "Chattering Magpie" - coincidence isn't it? Why do I always hijack my own threads?...
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
As in, this: http://www.chatteringmagpie.com/essays/columbia_rediviva.html
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
BegF, DUD DUD and DUD UDU in jigs is a difference in *standard* picking pattern, rather than cross rhythms and syncopation which was what we were on about. I think this is only really an issue for reels. People who consistently play |DudU duDu|dUdu Dudu| and similar, the *whole* time. It can really ditract from the beauty of a tune.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
(DEtract). Sometimes when I hear people overusing this I keep expecting someone to break out into rap, moving their shoulders and neck along to the jerky rhythm, or start breakdancing to it. It's so naff.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Naff - interesting word. Very informative discussion, both in terms of DH's playing and in BC's name. Thanks Dow.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by Janek
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Poor poor Donough Hennessy. There he is playing his heart out and there's the second row "analysing" him.
# Posted on May 17th 2004 by ...
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
But he's so damn cute!!! ;)
# Posted on May 18th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
I know, poor poor Donough. I'm such a saddo, but at least I admit it. I can't listen to a concert just for fun like you Michael me old china, I'm too much of a technique geek.
# Posted on May 18th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Donough Hennessy's "triplet strumming" II
Dow do you try what you say ?
I try to play it on my bouzouki, but it's not clear
# Posted on May 28th 2005 by Mandolman