This concept was mentioned in another thread, and I'm curious about what it means to people. I do ask that folks explain their perspectives without taking snarky digs at other musicians, however. I think this is a worthwhile topic for thoughtful exposition, but the last thing I want to do is invite folks to vent their resentments over other people's successes.
imp, why not put something in your bio and how about a first name? There are real people sitting behind their computers chatting on this website. It's just doesn't feel right talking to strange anonymous user-names : )
It also depends on how we "understand" or interpret your question, Imp.
Some might say that a tune's history was important, the circumstances in which it was written etc but many good tunes were just made up on the sour of the moment without any great thought with "throwaway titles". There's certainly a lot more to a tune than learning the notes and the basic style eg reel, jig, strathspey etc. Yet, I would suggest that a tune could be understood in different ways. Everyone has their own style and will interpret a tune differently. I don't think you could necessarily accuse a player of not "understanding" a tune because they included more, less, or different ornamentation/bowing etc. On the other hand, if their choice or ornaments was a bit tasteless and didn't fit the tune, that might be different.
I'll let someone else come in now
I don't think you can ever really understand a work of art. Art, by its very nature, has an illusive quality and in the very best of it, this quality keeps making you want to return for another look/listen/play.
That said though, there is a certain amount of understanding that has to happen. You have to understand why any decent tune doesn't jump from Dmaj to Csharp major for instance.
Rather than understanding a tune, I would ask if I "get it". You know, like when you'd say to yourself with a little wry smile,"Oh yeah, now I get it"
In a workshop with Martin Hayes a few years ago, I recall him saying that it took him over a year to 'understand' a particular tune. I don't remember if 'understand' was the exact word he said, but he meant the phrasing, rhythm, ornamentation, etc. - everything that makes the difference between just a bunch of notes and how they are played together to make a tune. As a fiddle player I need to work on the bowing in order to get the phrasing that makes for, in my mind, an interesting tune. It's amazing what sluring notes from one measure to the next, or emphasizing an off-beat will do to the way a tune sounds and plays. It's hard to define what 'understanding' of a tune means, but once you arrive there, you know it.
Brendan McGlinchey told us once in a workshop at Listowel that it took him 9 months to learn the particular tune ("The Crown of Roses" I think it was) that he was teaching us, before he reckoned he'd got it good enough to perform in public.
On a different track, the Allegri String Quartet (one of the best UK classical quartets of the last 50 years) put in a total of 72 hours of rehearsal for their first concert, and then considered they were under-rehearsed. And they were four of the best pros around.
Trevor
I reckon I understand a tune when I can vary phrases without thinking, using my stack of ornamentation styles (I'm not trying to be smart here), and also do little harmony snatches *in session* at will, without upsetting the melody and balance of the tune as a whole. The way I truly understand a tune is when I can make a band arrangement for it, with others playing melody and accompaniment.
I think there is *so* much implied harmony during the melody of some tunes, and to me a true understanding is when you can spell out to the other band members the chords and notes of the accompaniment (assuming you're not capable of doing it yourself on an accompaniment instrument).
Trevor - following on your track, I heard Itzhak Perlman tell Melvyn Bragg on the South Bank Show that he didn't think he would ever fully understand the constructs of Bach's Six Sonatas for solo violin. I thought to myself at the time, "Never mind, Itzy, neither will I!"
I think "understanding" is the difference between players who think that playing faster is better and those who put the real essence of Irish music into their playing. That is why I would rather listen to someone like Martin Hays who puts his real soul into the music and has a great respect for the tradition. Playing at breakneck speed is just a jumble of notes with no understanding.
I remember the fulfulling feeling of mastering tunes and playing by ear - as opposed to the first years spent on training and sight-reading at music school.
I think if you have memorized a tune you most probably have broken some sort of code of the tune. This is of course at a basic level. Being able to perform a tune to the enjoyment of others is another matter and would normally be several steps up the ladder (either in practicing or routine)
....unless breakneck speed is just how you play. But most of us can't process sound, or even move our fingers quick enough to play like Ciaran Tourish or Finbar Furey.
What a thoughtful question, and yes, I can relate to many of the replies.
Here are a few examples...one of the first tunes I learnt was "The Ships are sailing".
It quite simply is a beautiful tune. The description I give is not of this tune though, but what has happened over the years.
I play/practise every day (loving my flute is a better description) and there are times in private, AND in public when, with whatever tune, a different idea "happens"!
I DO NOT try to find different things, qualities...I think it is more a question of how intimate you are with the piece, that your very emotions pour into those notes, and that's why, although a solid tune in your repertoire, it evolves fresh, and other people do notice, believe me!
Trev, Dave A, Paul and others on this site will vouch for that..."LISTEN = NOTICE" I mean!
The first time I played a tune with Matt Molloy was back in the late 70s. There'd been a concert, and afterwards we had a "bit" of a session. Oh, can I ever remeber the first tune we played together...Jackie Coleman's! And when it came to the change..? We carried on playing Jackie Coleman's! Kevin Burke, Paul Brady, Micheal O Domhnaill...they were there too, and I've had tunes with them since.
And the people who gave me my grounding...players from the Liverpool Ceili Band, Eamonn Coyne, Sean Mac, later on Jimmy McHugh, Jimmy Power, Paddy Malynn, Julia Clifford...all these played a tune they liked, it seemed, forever!
I've carried these sessions with me for over half my life, and those who've played with me, or those whom I've taught, will know that I have always said to play a tune as much as you love it!
If these wonderful people do it, then surely there is some good in such an approach!Maybe that's what's meant by understanding a tune.
My best advice is to play tunes you love, and enjoy playing them...they'll respond to you!
Remiss of me not to mention the sharing aspect. Sometimes a particular grpoup of musicians will explore a tune, purely because of the mix...the energy, the stars and their alignment, the quality of the potion...
...sometimes, being round the kitchen table, with a pot of tea, for a bit of "house music"! That can have the same effect!
My favourite parts of a session are often long after most of the sessioneers have left - when you can sit with just one or two people and feel out the differences between instruments. It can be good to just play the one tune again and again on a more personal level. I think I gain more from these little get togethers than I do from the full flow of the session.
Thank you for the very thoughtful replies folks!! You've given me a great deal to ponder. And Joyce, I'm afraid I haven't been able to use my real name online since joining the Witness Protection Program. But I do agree with you about there being real people behind these computers. That is why I asked people to keep their responses gracious. I can't imagine a more egregious way to disrespect fine music than to use it as a pretext for denigrating others.
The first thing for me, to understand it as a player, is to get the mechanics automatic. If I concentrate, I can often play a tune note perfect with the most appalling fingering, or whatever, but then I'm using up all my concentration just hitting the notes - so not much room for expression.
Once the mechanics are more or less automatic, I have the opportunity to listen differently to the tune when I play it, to try to find out what seems to be IN the tune, as opposed to simply imposing my own bag of stock variations on it.
Then of course hearing other people play it may alter my understanding for the better (that blinding flash of the obvious moment where you think "OF COURSE that's how it ought to be played") Other times someone's interpretation just confirms that I like the way I'm doing it best anyway.
But I'm gonna be struggling to understand a particular reel, say, if I don't have a background of other similar reels to hook it onto. That natural human tendency to classify and group things is a help, I feel. People often say that you can't play tunes in an authentic style if you get them from books, but I would argue that you can if you understand the style deeply enough to read between the lines.
I've been playing in Scottish ceilidh bands for years (just a little note here, for those who might not know, unlike an Irish ceili band, we usually only have a couple of people playing the melody).
There are a couple of tunes that you have to play night after night. often several times per gig. The Dashing White Sargeant and The St. Bernard's Waltz. I don't personally like these 2 tunes much, but the dancers do, so I've had to get on with the job. What I've noticed is that I'm totally free and easy with these tunes. To avoid boredom over the years I've bent them into all sorts of shapes - some better than others - until I sure as heck understand them. I have lived inside them like a house, if you see what I mean.
I only wish sometimes, I had the time to get more of the tunes I love to the same point. Maybe that's why some of the players who have done a lot of solo gigging for a long time play with such depth - it's just the endless repitition of they're favourite tunes.
I seem to have eaten my own tail now, so I'll stop.
When James Kelly was first learning, I've heard, apparently his father would teach him the A part first. He'd go away with it and mull it over, work it, and figure out every possible thing he thought he could do with it. About three to six months later, he'd take it back to his father and play it for him. If his father was satisfied with it, then he'd teach him the B, and he'd go away and do the same with the B.
On the other hand, my teacher once told me that there was nothing wrong with "just playing the damn tune".
And of course there's everything in between.
Jesse Langan, younger brother of Tim Langan, once told me that it's necessary to learn the story of a tune rather than just which notes follow which notes. If you do that, you'll likely even noodle in the right ways to keep the story going if you goof up, he says.
Just thought I'd throw that stuff in to add to everyone else's comments.
Speaking personally,I believe every tune has its own little 'groove'.The first person who will think it's right is yourself.Just an opinion from a humble whistle player
Paul
What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
This concept was mentioned in another thread, and I'm curious about what it means to people. I do ask that folks explain their perspectives without taking snarky digs at other musicians, however. I think this is a worthwhile topic for thoughtful exposition, but the last thing I want to do is invite folks to vent their resentments over other people's successes.
Your humble novice,
imp
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by imp4hire
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
imp, why not put something in your bio and how about a first name? There are real people sitting behind their computers chatting on this website. It's just doesn't feel right talking to strange anonymous user-names : )
Joyce
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by JMH
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
It also depends on how we "understand" or interpret your question, Imp.
Some might say that a tune's history was important, the circumstances in which it was written etc but many good tunes were just made up on the sour of the moment without any great thought with "throwaway titles". There's certainly a lot more to a tune than learning the notes and the basic style eg reel, jig, strathspey etc. Yet, I would suggest that a tune could be understood in different ways. Everyone has their own style and will interpret a tune differently. I don't think you could necessarily accuse a player of not "understanding" a tune because they included more, less, or different ornamentation/bowing etc. On the other hand, if their choice or ornaments was a bit tasteless and didn't fit the tune, that might be different.
I'll let someone else come in now
John
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
I don't think you can ever really understand a work of art. Art, by its very nature, has an illusive quality and in the very best of it, this quality keeps making you want to return for another look/listen/play.
That said though, there is a certain amount of understanding that has to happen. You have to understand why any decent tune doesn't jump from Dmaj to Csharp major for instance.
Rather than understanding a tune, I would ask if I "get it". You know, like when you'd say to yourself with a little wry smile,"Oh yeah, now I get it"
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by ...
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Sorry. For "sour" read "spur"
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
In a workshop with Martin Hayes a few years ago, I recall him saying that it took him over a year to 'understand' a particular tune. I don't remember if 'understand' was the exact word he said, but he meant the phrasing, rhythm, ornamentation, etc. - everything that makes the difference between just a bunch of notes and how they are played together to make a tune. As a fiddle player I need to work on the bowing in order to get the phrasing that makes for, in my mind, an interesting tune. It's amazing what sluring notes from one measure to the next, or emphasizing an off-beat will do to the way a tune sounds and plays. It's hard to define what 'understanding' of a tune means, but once you arrive there, you know it.
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by Stewart
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
A Year? Christ, I new he was slow .... but ....
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by ...
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Brendan McGlinchey told us once in a workshop at Listowel that it took him 9 months to learn the particular tune ("The Crown of Roses" I think it was) that he was teaching us, before he reckoned he'd got it good enough to perform in public.
On a different track, the Allegri String Quartet (one of the best UK classical quartets of the last 50 years) put in a total of 72 hours of rehearsal for their first concert, and then considered they were under-rehearsed. And they were four of the best pros around.
Trevor
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
I feel I understand a tune when I'm comfortable with it.
By the way, my name's Kate.
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by rocking bow
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
I reckon I understand a tune when I can vary phrases without thinking, using my stack of ornamentation styles (I'm not trying to be smart here), and also do little harmony snatches *in session* at will, without upsetting the melody and balance of the tune as a whole. The way I truly understand a tune is when I can make a band arrangement for it, with others playing melody and accompaniment.
I think there is *so* much implied harmony during the melody of some tunes, and to me a true understanding is when you can spell out to the other band members the chords and notes of the accompaniment (assuming you're not capable of doing it yourself on an accompaniment instrument).
Trevor - following on your track, I heard Itzhak Perlman tell Melvyn Bragg on the South Bank Show that he didn't think he would ever fully understand the constructs of Bach's Six Sonatas for solo violin. I thought to myself at the time, "Never mind, Itzy, neither will I!"
Jim
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Michael, Michael, you crack me up!!! [about Martin Hayes...]
Jim
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
I think "understanding" is the difference between players who think that playing faster is better and those who put the real essence of Irish music into their playing. That is why I would rather listen to someone like Martin Hays who puts his real soul into the music and has a great respect for the tradition. Playing at breakneck speed is just a jumble of notes with no understanding.
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by Stewart
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Having learnt it by heart is a good start.
I remember the fulfulling feeling of mastering tunes and playing by ear - as opposed to the first years spent on training and sight-reading at music school.
I think if you have memorized a tune you most probably have broken some sort of code of the tune. This is of course at a basic level. Being able to perform a tune to the enjoyment of others is another matter and would normally be several steps up the ladder (either in practicing or routine)
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by FiddleTramp
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
....unless breakneck speed is just how you play. But most of us can't process sound, or even move our fingers quick enough to play like Ciaran Tourish or Finbar Furey.
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
What a thoughtful question, and yes, I can relate to many of the replies.
Here are a few examples...one of the first tunes I learnt was "The Ships are sailing".
It quite simply is a beautiful tune. The description I give is not of this tune though, but what has happened over the years.
I play/practise every day (loving my flute is a better description) and there are times in private, AND in public when, with whatever tune, a different idea "happens"!
I DO NOT try to find different things, qualities...I think it is more a question of how intimate you are with the piece, that your very emotions pour into those notes, and that's why, although a solid tune in your repertoire, it evolves fresh, and other people do notice, believe me!
Trev, Dave A, Paul and others on this site will vouch for that..."LISTEN = NOTICE" I mean!
The first time I played a tune with Matt Molloy was back in the late 70s. There'd been a concert, and afterwards we had a "bit" of a session. Oh, can I ever remeber the first tune we played together...Jackie Coleman's! And when it came to the change..? We carried on playing Jackie Coleman's! Kevin Burke, Paul Brady, Micheal O Domhnaill...they were there too, and I've had tunes with them since.
And the people who gave me my grounding...players from the Liverpool Ceili Band, Eamonn Coyne, Sean Mac, later on Jimmy McHugh, Jimmy Power, Paddy Malynn, Julia Clifford...all these played a tune they liked, it seemed, forever!
I've carried these sessions with me for over half my life, and those who've played with me, or those whom I've taught, will know that I have always said to play a tune as much as you love it!
If these wonderful people do it, then surely there is some good in such an approach!Maybe that's what's meant by understanding a tune.
My best advice is to play tunes you love, and enjoy playing them...they'll respond to you!
Hope this helps, and most of all, HAVE FUN!
Brianx
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by briantheflute
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Mea culpa!
Remiss of me not to mention the sharing aspect. Sometimes a particular grpoup of musicians will explore a tune, purely because of the mix...the energy, the stars and their alignment, the quality of the potion...
...sometimes, being round the kitchen table, with a pot of tea, for a bit of "house music"! That can have the same effect!
Bx
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by briantheflute
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Couldn't agree more, Brian.
My favourite parts of a session are often long after most of the sessioneers have left - when you can sit with just one or two people and feel out the differences between instruments. It can be good to just play the one tune again and again on a more personal level. I think I gain more from these little get togethers than I do from the full flow of the session.
# Posted on May 10th 2004 by bc_box_player
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
i'd agree with that, bc. that's why i'm usually the one suffering from the most sleep deprivation at festivals...
# Posted on May 11th 2004 by rog
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Thank you for the very thoughtful replies folks!! You've given me a great deal to ponder. And Joyce, I'm afraid I haven't been able to use my real name online since joining the Witness Protection Program. But I do agree with you about there being real people behind these computers. That is why I asked people to keep their responses gracious. I can't imagine a more egregious way to disrespect fine music than to use it as a pretext for denigrating others.
fondly,
imp
# Posted on May 11th 2004 by imp4hire
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
The first thing for me, to understand it as a player, is to get the mechanics automatic. If I concentrate, I can often play a tune note perfect with the most appalling fingering, or whatever, but then I'm using up all my concentration just hitting the notes - so not much room for expression.
Once the mechanics are more or less automatic, I have the opportunity to listen differently to the tune when I play it, to try to find out what seems to be IN the tune, as opposed to simply imposing my own bag of stock variations on it.
Then of course hearing other people play it may alter my understanding for the better (that blinding flash of the obvious moment where you think "OF COURSE that's how it ought to be played") Other times someone's interpretation just confirms that I like the way I'm doing it best anyway.
But I'm gonna be struggling to understand a particular reel, say, if I don't have a background of other similar reels to hook it onto. That natural human tendency to classify and group things is a help, I feel. People often say that you can't play tunes in an authentic style if you get them from books, but I would argue that you can if you understand the style deeply enough to read between the lines.
I've been playing in Scottish ceilidh bands for years (just a little note here, for those who might not know, unlike an Irish ceili band, we usually only have a couple of people playing the melody).
There are a couple of tunes that you have to play night after night. often several times per gig. The Dashing White Sargeant and The St. Bernard's Waltz. I don't personally like these 2 tunes much, but the dancers do, so I've had to get on with the job. What I've noticed is that I'm totally free and easy with these tunes. To avoid boredom over the years I've bent them into all sorts of shapes - some better than others - until I sure as heck understand them. I have lived inside them like a house, if you see what I mean.
I only wish sometimes, I had the time to get more of the tunes I love to the same point. Maybe that's why some of the players who have done a lot of solo gigging for a long time play with such depth - it's just the endless repitition of they're favourite tunes.
I seem to have eaten my own tail now, so I'll stop.
# Posted on May 11th 2004 by kris
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
When James Kelly was first learning, I've heard, apparently his father would teach him the A part first. He'd go away with it and mull it over, work it, and figure out every possible thing he thought he could do with it. About three to six months later, he'd take it back to his father and play it for him. If his father was satisfied with it, then he'd teach him the B, and he'd go away and do the same with the B.
On the other hand, my teacher once told me that there was nothing wrong with "just playing the damn tune".
And of course there's everything in between.
Jesse Langan, younger brother of Tim Langan, once told me that it's necessary to learn the story of a tune rather than just which notes follow which notes. If you do that, you'll likely even noodle in the right ways to keep the story going if you goof up, he says.
Just thought I'd throw that stuff in to add to everyone else's comments.
# Posted on May 11th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Wow... if James Kelly's dad taught him something like "Lord Gordon's Reel" it would take over 2 and a half years to learn it at that rate.
# Posted on May 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Yeah, and what about the seven part Gold Ring?
# Posted on May 11th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
You understand a tune sufficiantly when you can let it play you.
# Posted on May 12th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Ooo, I like that...
# Posted on May 12th 2004 by imp4hire
Re: What does it mean to "understand a tune"?
Speaking personally,I believe every tune has its own little 'groove'.The first person who will think it's right is yourself.Just an opinion from a humble whistle player
Paul
# Posted on May 21st 2004 by Musicofireland