Hello,
I am new to this site and I play with my siblings on recorder, whistle, violin, & guitar. We've listened to a variety of irish music, and it sounds like most groups harmonize or fill out the song rather than just playing the melody alone. Yet when I look at the sheet music, all that is shown is the tune itself, with no harmony and rarely any chords.
Would anyone like to tell me how they do it?
Thanks!
-Andrew Plett
Er...do you have any Irish sessions near you, Andrew? Do you play with any Irish musicians? This may sound like a simple subject to you, but, believe me, it's far from, and it's best learned in person...
You just learn the chords of G, C, D, A, Am, Em, and.. well that'll do actually, and then you waggle your right hand up and down so that your pick brushes over the guitar strings. It's easy. Go to any session and try it - the tune players will love you for it. "The more backers the better", they'll say.
I feel the hostile winds of controversy gathering. Brace yourself, Andrew. : ) For a little heads up on what you can expect from most of the fine people who frequent this site, concensus seems to be we prefer the "pure drop" stuff - better unaccompanied than overaccompanied, better a straight melody than any efforts at harmony, unless you are a genius at it, but you do it rarely (for example, every third Saturday in August.)
The reason there are no harmonies on this site is the tunes themselves are conceived and expressed, for the most part, as you see them. Any harmonies you hear on your CDs are innovations by the musicians being recorded.
You are free to innovate as well (and between you and I, I kind of recommend it!) Pick up a few lessons in music theory (ie. the science of intervals and relative major and minor keys). You can use this knowledge to enhance your ability to express any kind of music, including ITM.
Any attempt at harmonising Irish Trad music should wait until you have spent several years in sessions playing melodies and or just listening. After that you may decide you don't want to play ITM anymore or you don't really want to harmonise. But if you do I would suggest that it is probably the hardest to get anywhere near right and some would say it will never be right.
The only real place for this harmonising would (IMO) be in a concert or on a recording - not a session.
Now Scottish music seems to be a little different though I am no expert in that. They all seem to like throwing in the odd harmony especially on the fiddle.
Good luck
PS: Dow, "The Hostile Winds of Controversy" would have to be written by a guitarist or other person of low self esteem.
If you put something about yourself in your profile you might find that someone really helpful is able to say "Hey - you live near enough to me to get together and I can show you what you need to know."
That could even be me - but I have no idea where in the world you are.
playing slight variations of a tune over an other setting often creates harmonies unintended. for instance: take the final part of jig of slurs
|DFF FAA|ABB BAF| ...
and play a (fluter) variation as
|~D3 ~F3|~A3 BAF| ...
that'zz harmonies. wether this would sound wright? 1ste bar OK, but second (B over A) sounds a bit 'jazzy' which might not always be preferred by die hard pure drops as a harmony, (in this case, nor would I) but well accepted as a variation.
but as for this item: although there's no tradition in 'harmonizing' irish trad, it sometimes just happens whenever two different instruments are playing together. sometimes it may well sound crappy, sometimes it gives the whole thing a lift, but i wouldn't recommend doing anything like playing a complete second voicing to a reel (could indeed do for a performance/recording or a session where us knows us).
Andrew, one very important reason why harmonising Irish trad music is difficult and needs to be done with care is that most of the tunes are modal, that is, they're neither quite major or minor. (there are several discussions on this website on "modes"). If the wrong chord is used then it upsets the modality of the tune. Even worse, a pentatonic tune can be ruined by the wrong choice of chords. This is why there's this advice about doing a lot of listening to the tunes and playing them unaccompanied so as to get a deep feel for the music before you embark on adding chords.
Trevor
Andrew, fidicen's absolutely right - I play the button accordion and actively seek out decent guitar accompaniment, but there's a couple of 'experimental' or 'cutting edge' fellahs that frequent the local session that I've learned to avoid like the plague. If I sit next to them they put me off something shocking - they can wander off on what must be standard guitar chord progressions, but that don't match the tune I'm playing. And if that happens it doesn't matter how well you know the tune - you're toast. The box doesn't have a linear tuning (some of the keys are out of 'sequence'), so it's trickier to make adjustments on the fly.
Definately practice harmonies for a particular tune before imposing them on people in public, and only try and wing it if you're very, very good...
I don't have a lot of theory but it seems that introducing a harmony without a by-your-leave places un-desirable restrictions on the melodic line, or clashes with ornamentation that is often used to express the so-called "Pure Drop". I would appreciate hearing from the theorists if this a good logical thought.
Stick to octaves and fifths, with the *very* sparse third, and you won't go far wrong. Difficult to explain the sound, but it's common to nearly all the real accompanists.
It was an honest question, and deserves an honest answer, I think. Andrew, the thing to keep in mind is that recordings are not always what's considered traditional, it depends on who you're listening to -- and of course who you want to sound like. I always advocate listening to and learning to play the pure drop stuff first so you know what you're doing in as authoritative a manner as possible.
Who are you listening to? What do you guys want to sound like as a band? Do you want to be as traditional as you can, or do you want something more like Lunasa? The thing to remember about the bands like The Bothy Band and Lunasa and such is that they are innovators, and they are all top notch, world class Irish traditional musicians who knew exactly what rules they were breaking.
Yeah, that's certainly not a bad place to start : ) Puts a few bucks in the pockets of pipers, too. Mick O'Brien, Liam O' Flynn, Gay Mckeon, Ronan Browne, and Paddy Keenan are all very skillful in their use of the regulators.
Learn lots tunes, study modal theory a bit, and listen to a lot of different accompaniment styles: John Doyle's and Donagh Hennessy's names comes up a lot, and I do like them, but I think people need to bend an ear to Alec Finn, Arty McGlynn, Mick Giblin, Aidan Brennan, Eoin O'Neill, Daithi Sproule, Pat Broaders, and others who use subtler but no less effective approaches.
A while back in this thread, Trevor said "most of the tunes are modal,that is, they're neither quite major or minor." Though many are, and that makes harmonizing difficult (which was Trevor's point), it's not clear to me that "most" is correct.
I took a look at the tunes here at thesession. 77% are classified as major or minor and 23% as mixolydian or dorian (modal). Of course that needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Many of the tunes there are not Irish, many are not traditional, many are counted repeatedly under alternate titles, and many are incorrectly categorized. Surely there are also many that are ambiguous (hexatonic, pentatonic, or mixed mode). Still, even if 35% of the tunes classed as major/minor were actually mixolydian or dorian, a full 50% of the tunes would be major/minor.
So, while Trevor MIGHT be correct to use "most", a quick look at the evidence suggests that it's a long shot. Still, I completely agree with the point he was making. Even if only a quarter of the tunes are modal, if an accompanist sounds horrible 25% of the time, that's going to grow old pretty fast.
FYI, here's the raw data (rounded to nearest 10, except for data in the single digits):
FMaj 50
CMaj 90
GMaj 1580
DMaj 1620
AMaj 70
EMaj 20
Poor Andrew seems to have been frightened off by all this jibber jabber about modal this and that and "Add cdd|Bdd Add" . If I may intuit a few details from his question, I'd suggest he is rather young and rather isolated. (He is playing music with his siblings - in the city, siblings just bicker about who gets the remote control). If this is the case, and if you are still reading Andrew, feel free to disregard all the grumblers who insist you have to go find a session and refuse to play anything but the tunes, note for note.
Since you are playing with your family you have already created your own session, and you can play whatever you darn well please. The advice re. using a fifth above or a fourth below, octaves and thirds is good to start off with. Since you play guitar, try using "relative minor" chords once in a while to add tenion to the tune (ie. sometimes play a B minor instead of a D major).
If you have any specific group or recording in mind and you're wondering "what the heck are they playing here?" post another thread and ask somebody to break it down for you. Some of us will be able to say "OK, the guitar is playing THESE chords, in THIS tuning, the fiddle is playing THIS, the harp is playing THIS, and the low whistle is harmonizing thusly." and write out the notation for you. (Clearly some of us have too much time on our hands).
Good advice for budding musicians, Kerri. A middling sort of advice for musicians who want to be players of Irish traditional music. I suppose it just depends on the kind of music they want to play. Either is fine, of course. It just depends on what you want to play.
Yeah, I was trying to reply to Andrew's question from a broader musical perspective, since he himself never suggested he was concerned about being (wink) "traditional". He said "Irish music" not "Irish traditional music". He could be talking about U2 for all we know.
It's a fairly common experience, not only on this site, for someone to say something like "this tune's in G", when it's obviously Emin when played, or to find a tune that starts in Bmin but clearly finishes in Dmaj. This sort of thing knocks on the head any pretensions to an accurate statistical analysis of the modality of the tunes done "off the cuff" as it were. The only way to do it accurately is to analyse each tune individually, and that will take time - a LOT of time, bearing in mind that there are over 2700 tunes in this site's database - 2747 to be precise as of this moment in time ) - time that for me would be spent more productively in playing music.
Practically, it's a lot simpler to say something like "2 sharps and ends on B".
Thanks all of you for your opinions!
To answer various questions, I'm in Oregon(I've never been in Alberta), I like the Chieftans, and I'm all for playing Irish music in the traditional way, which is why I asked whether to harmonize or not.
I've listened to the Chieftans the most, and we'd like to play in that direction. They don't harmonize all the time but when they do it sounds great(to me at least). For example in "Strike the Gay Harp" from Chieftans 3, they start out with a few instruments playing the tune by itself the first time through. Then when they repeat one of the fiddles drops into harmony. On other tunes, you hear the whistles harmonize or do decorations above the tune. I guess what I was really wondering is how do you know when to do that, and how to do it?
-Andrew
Oh dear, this is going to be hard to explain. Well, Andrew, I'm afraid the closest that I personally can come is that you know that it's time to do it when you think it's right, and you do it how you think it sounds right in your ear. Whether anyone else will think it's right or whether anyone else thinks your version of right is indeed *correct* is in fact of little moment unless you care about their opinion.
The only way to do that is to listen listen listen and then listen some more. Make choices about how you want to play, and then make more choices as you keep listening. Sooner or later you will find that you will have narrowed down your own definitions of right for you, and will have developed a taste and standard that is unique to you.
As for how *technically* how to do it, you must study modal and chord theory, as Trevor was talking above. Harmonies and counterpoint will then fall into line rather naturally once you "hear" the chord structure inherent within the tune (and different musos will hear that chord structure different as their tastes warrant). You probably already have a certain taste in chord structure, if you listen to any music at all, you can't really help it. But the more music and styles you listen to, the wider your choices will range (or in some cases, the narrower, depending upon how narrow you define your tastes to, and there's nothing wrong with that just like there's nothing wrong with the former).
I really like the idea of listening to a great uilleann piper who uses his regulators well to get a feel for both the rhythms and harmonic chord structures in traditional Irish music. Paddy Keenan, for instance, is a classic choice, yet with a modern edge at times -- try picking up a copy of Doublin', with Paddy Glackin, for instance, but there are a ton of other pipers to listen to out there. I also like Robbie Hannon's album with Paddy Glackin as well. I'm sure others can give you more choices.
Whatever you do, have fun! Otherwise, what's the point? Good luck!
As to whether you should harmonize at all, well, it depends on you. As my teacher Shannon Heaton once told me, there's absolutely nothing wrong with just playing the damned tune.
Music theory can be quite confusing to someone who has never had any theory. I suggest that before you start studying theory, just listen, listen, listen, as Zina Lee suggests. Play music with a lot of people who play better than you do, starting when you were a kid, wherever possible. Improvising and harmonizing will eventually become intuitive. Then take a music theory course. The course I took at a college in Kalamazoo was an eye-opener. It was like finding a hidden room in my house that I never knew existed. Do not get addicted to sheet music. Play by ear. Sheet music is only the outlines, you must color it in according to your own tastes.
Actually, Andrew, you didn't ask whether or not to harmonize, you asked HOW to harmonize. I figured you'd get about thirty responses saying "Don't you DARE try to harmonize until you've been playing for thirty years!" so I thought I'd chuck in a couple of "go ahead! Harmonize your brains out!" comments just for balance. ;^D Zina made a great suggestion that you figure out things that sound "right" to your ear. That's what I think most people do.
Oh, I'm definitely in the "harmony should be used sparingly if at all" camp, myself. And I really dislike too much counterpoint, myself, I prefer to listen to the more subtle polyphony given to the stuff by people playing their own variations on the setting. But that's for me and my particular version of the music. And within "arranged" settings, I don't really mind it, and in fact quite enjoy it -- for instance, I adore Lunasa.
In fact, I'm no huge fan of the newer Solas stuff, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate it as good music, and I certainly know that Win Horan and Seamus Egan and everyone else in that band could play me under the table and right out the door at a session, with one hand tied behind their backs.
What will sound good and right to your ear *should* normally change as you go, though, I'll warn you -- otherwise you're not growing at all. Can't have that.
Wow... I didn't think anyone else would be on line. I go over and start taking-the-piss-out-of the tune section, come back and find yous twos doing the same thing over here. I thought I was the only loser at home tonight. hi guys (waves)
It's Thursday, and usually a band practice night, but what the hey. They're practising without me since they are playing for, are you ready for this, a Maypole dance thing on May 2nd while I'll be in SF. Hey, Jack -- who's leading the session on Sunday and Monday night?
It's John Sherry and Kyle Thayer... great sesh hosts. I'm doing a gig down the peninsula Sunday early evening, but I'll stop in afterwards. Bring some buscuits.
Zina, are you still gonna make it to Chicago for the Husqvarna thing?
Hi Jack. Hey I want to order the two Jody's Heaven cds from you. Aimee and Richard have them on their cd changer--great tunes, great musicianship, and I want to learn the reel written by your guitarist (can't spell his name). So I'll send you an email to get the ordering info.
Junji, you mean, Will? Yes, I'm going to Chicago, I'll fly into SF for the viewing and funeral, then on Monday or Tuesday (depending on whether the family needs me) into Chicago to teach. Then I'll stay for a few days with Su to help her get into her new house and then fly back in to Denver.
Jack, I'll have to see if I can get free on Sunday evening, but it'll all depend on when the funeral is and whether the family, specifically my dad, wants me there. But I will have my fiddle with me, and if I can, I'll get there.
Thanks Will -- I can post the ABCs for Junji's tune, it's called "Lady Mondegreen's" I helped him with the tune and suggested the title in honor of the fact that we named our band after a mondagreen of sorts. We wanted to know the name of one of the tunes we were going to record, and Junji found it on a recording and said, "Here it is, Jody's Heaven" (Jolly Seven) When we were trying to think of a name that could be pronounced by Japanese people... the solution was obvious.
As a 'compulsive harmonist' I find it difficult to explain HOW to do it! I have a theory, however, that harmony often originates naturally ('traditionally') as a function of imperfect memory/musicianship, whatever! Often you sit in the corner and play bum notes quietly to yourself until you have got the shape of the tune, then, when it's coming, you go down when the tune should go up or you play a phrase in parallel at a third or a fifth difference - someone occasionally says "that's nice" and a harmony is born! It's just a theory, mind!
Having grown up as an accompanist, I find that I learn tunes initially by their chord pattern (most traditional tune phrases are built on an implied harmony or scale fragment which constrains the chords). Learn to listen to this and identify the strong notes in the phrase which define the scale for that phrase, then play other notes in that scale which are not outway dissonant. That's the way my jazz-playing brother puts it, anyway.
I think Tyto described the process about right. As to whether or not you should................it does fill out the sound, and see the much earlier remark about the recordings of guys who knew the subject backwards, and knew which rules they were breaking - remember the Chieftains are about 103 years old each, and you can't buy that experience cheaply.
However...as a guitarist and lately bouzouki player, I nowadays only take the 'zouk to a session - why ? - because two guitars at a session is like two bodrhans - one too many. What you loose on the 'zouk in not being able to do any flat-picking in chording is pretty much lost in the noise anyway, and if a tune comes along I can play then I can drop into melody. When it's a tune I don't know/can't accompany, I'll just sit and be decorative. There's no rule says you have to play on everything.
Andrew--
I envy you your family--being able to all play together whenever you want...
You've found the right site if you want to learn about this music. People here are passionate and knowledgable, and funny and testy too--like a big international family.
Search through previous discussions to find out about modal theory and chords--there are great teachers on this site too.
I play guitar, and am learning a lot from Chris Smith's book "Celtic Back-Up for all Instrumentalists." It's a Mel Bay book-should be available where you are. (Lot of folkies still around in Portland and Eugene and Corvallis I bet)
If you don't know what note to play, just guess. If you guess wrong (that is, the note is not in the chord), then you can try something different next time. Most people will play softer when they are unsure about what they should play.
I'm actually doing a research project on traditional Irish Music when I came across this site :P I'm anylising and the composing my own music (theorically) After wading through many scores and essays I discovered that even though Irish tunes are usually modal, when arrangers and/or editiors/publishers came along they would begin to add parts and/or harmony and to do so, frequently turned the tune into a minor key (sneaky buggers) making them not so traditional but easier to harmonise. There should be heaps of these kinds of songs out there if your interested, try in music shops or even just libraries
Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Hello,
I am new to this site and I play with my siblings on recorder, whistle, violin, & guitar. We've listened to a variety of irish music, and it sounds like most groups harmonize or fill out the song rather than just playing the melody alone. Yet when I look at the sheet music, all that is shown is the tune itself, with no harmony and rarely any chords.
Would anyone like to tell me how they do it?
Thanks!
-Andrew Plett
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Andrew Plett
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Er...do you have any Irish sessions near you, Andrew? Do you play with any Irish musicians? This may sound like a simple subject to you, but, believe me, it's far from, and it's best learned in person...
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
You just learn the chords of G, C, D, A, Am, Em, and.. well that'll do actually, and then you waggle your right hand up and down so that your pick brushes over the guitar strings. It's easy. Go to any session and try it - the tune players will love you for it. "The more backers the better", they'll say.
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
*boggle*
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Q
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
I feel the hostile winds of controversy gathering. Brace yourself, Andrew. : ) For a little heads up on what you can expect from most of the fine people who frequent this site, concensus seems to be we prefer the "pure drop" stuff - better unaccompanied than overaccompanied, better a straight melody than any efforts at harmony, unless you are a genius at it, but you do it rarely (for example, every third Saturday in August.)
The reason there are no harmonies on this site is the tunes themselves are conceived and expressed, for the most part, as you see them. Any harmonies you hear on your CDs are innovations by the musicians being recorded.
You are free to innovate as well (and between you and I, I kind of recommend it!) Pick up a few lessons in music theory (ie. the science of intervals and relative major and minor keys). You can use this knowledge to enhance your ability to express any kind of music, including ITM.
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Bags I "The Hostile Winds Of Controversy" as a tune name. Ta...
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Any attempt at harmonising Irish Trad music should wait until you have spent several years in sessions playing melodies and or just listening. After that you may decide you don't want to play ITM anymore or you don't really want to harmonise. But if you do I would suggest that it is probably the hardest to get anywhere near right and some would say it will never be right.
The only real place for this harmonising would (IMO) be in a concert or on a recording - not a session.
Now Scottish music seems to be a little different though I am no expert in that. They all seem to like throwing in the odd harmony especially on the fiddle.
Good luck
PS: Dow, "The Hostile Winds of Controversy" would have to be written by a guitarist or other person of low self esteem.
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Donough
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Andrew -
If you put something about yourself in your profile you might find that someone really helpful is able to say "Hey - you live near enough to me to get together and I can show you what you need to know."
That could even be me - but I have no idea where in the world you are.
Dave
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
playing slight variations of a tune over an other setting often creates harmonies unintended. for instance: take the final part of jig of slurs
|DFF FAA|ABB BAF| ...
and play a (fluter) variation as
|~D3 ~F3|~A3 BAF| ...
that'zz harmonies. wether this would sound wright? 1ste bar OK, but second (B over A) sounds a bit 'jazzy' which might not always be preferred by die hard pure drops as a harmony, (in this case, nor would I) but well accepted as a variation.
but as for this item: although there's no tradition in 'harmonizing' irish trad, it sometimes just happens whenever two different instruments are playing together. sometimes it may well sound crappy, sometimes it gives the whole thing a lift, but i wouldn't recommend doing anything like playing a complete second voicing to a reel (could indeed do for a performance/recording or a session where us knows us).
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by MM
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Andrew, one very important reason why harmonising Irish trad music is difficult and needs to be done with care is that most of the tunes are modal, that is, they're neither quite major or minor. (there are several discussions on this website on "modes"). If the wrong chord is used then it upsets the modality of the tune. Even worse, a pentatonic tune can be ruined by the wrong choice of chords. This is why there's this advice about doing a lot of listening to the tunes and playing them unaccompanied so as to get a deep feel for the music before you embark on adding chords.
Trevor
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Andrew, fidicen's absolutely right - I play the button accordion and actively seek out decent guitar accompaniment, but there's a couple of 'experimental' or 'cutting edge' fellahs that frequent the local session that I've learned to avoid like the plague. If I sit next to them they put me off something shocking - they can wander off on what must be standard guitar chord progressions, but that don't match the tune I'm playing. And if that happens it doesn't matter how well you know the tune - you're toast. The box doesn't have a linear tuning (some of the keys are out of 'sequence'), so it's trickier to make adjustments on the fly.
Definately practice harmonies for a particular tune before imposing them on people in public, and only try and wing it if you're very, very good...
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by bc_box_player
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
I don't have a lot of theory but it seems that introducing a harmony without a by-your-leave places un-desirable restrictions on the melodic line, or clashes with ornamentation that is often used to express the so-called "Pure Drop". I would appreciate hearing from the theorists if this a good logical thought.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Stick to octaves and fifths, with the *very* sparse third, and you won't go far wrong. Difficult to explain the sound, but it's common to nearly all the real accompanists.
Jim
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
"...you waggle your right hand up and down..."
Dow, you howl me!
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by pbassnote
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
It was an honest question, and deserves an honest answer, I think. Andrew, the thing to keep in mind is that recordings are not always what's considered traditional, it depends on who you're listening to -- and of course who you want to sound like. I always advocate listening to and learning to play the pure drop stuff first so you know what you're doing in as authoritative a manner as possible.
Who are you listening to? What do you guys want to sound like as a band? Do you want to be as traditional as you can, or do you want something more like Lunasa? The thing to remember about the bands like The Bothy Band and Lunasa and such is that they are innovators, and they are all top notch, world class Irish traditional musicians who knew exactly what rules they were breaking.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Listening to the use of regulators on the U-pipes seems a very fitting way to begin to understand the role of harmony in ITM.
best,
steve
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Stevie C
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Yeah, that's certainly not a bad place to start : ) Puts a few bucks in the pockets of pipers, too. Mick O'Brien, Liam O' Flynn, Gay Mckeon, Ronan Browne, and Paddy Keenan are all very skillful in their use of the regulators.
Learn lots tunes, study modal theory a bit, and listen to a lot of different accompaniment styles: John Doyle's and Donagh Hennessy's names comes up a lot, and I do like them, but I think people need to bend an ear to Alec Finn, Arty McGlynn, Mick Giblin, Aidan Brennan, Eoin O'Neill, Daithi Sproule, Pat Broaders, and others who use subtler but no less effective approaches.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Hanley
Oh, yeah...
...and BTW, Andrew -- welcome to The Session. *grin*
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
A while back in this thread, Trevor said "most of the tunes are modal,that is, they're neither quite major or minor." Though many are, and that makes harmonizing difficult (which was Trevor's point), it's not clear to me that "most" is correct.
I took a look at the tunes here at thesession. 77% are classified as major or minor and 23% as mixolydian or dorian (modal). Of course that needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Many of the tunes there are not Irish, many are not traditional, many are counted repeatedly under alternate titles, and many are incorrectly categorized. Surely there are also many that are ambiguous (hexatonic, pentatonic, or mixed mode). Still, even if 35% of the tunes classed as major/minor were actually mixolydian or dorian, a full 50% of the tunes would be major/minor.
So, while Trevor MIGHT be correct to use "most", a quick look at the evidence suggests that it's a long shot. Still, I completely agree with the point he was making. Even if only a quarter of the tunes are modal, if an accompanist sounds horrible 25% of the time, that's going to grow old pretty fast.
FYI, here's the raw data (rounded to nearest 10, except for data in the single digits):
FMaj 50
CMaj 90
GMaj 1580
DMaj 1620
AMaj 70
EMaj 20
GMix 20
DMix 440
AMix 190
EMix 5
Bmix 0
FDor 4
CDor 4
GDor 50
DDor 60
ADor 210
EDor 290
BDor 4
GMin 40
DMin 60
AMin 110
EMin 290
BMin 140
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Gary, you have a lot of time on your hands!
Poor Andrew seems to have been frightened off by all this jibber jabber about modal this and that and "Add cdd|Bdd Add" . If I may intuit a few details from his question, I'd suggest he is rather young and rather isolated. (He is playing music with his siblings - in the city, siblings just bicker about who gets the remote control). If this is the case, and if you are still reading Andrew, feel free to disregard all the grumblers who insist you have to go find a session and refuse to play anything but the tunes, note for note.
Since you are playing with your family you have already created your own session, and you can play whatever you darn well please. The advice re. using a fifth above or a fourth below, octaves and thirds is good to start off with. Since you play guitar, try using "relative minor" chords once in a while to add tenion to the tune (ie. sometimes play a B minor instead of a D major).
If you have any specific group or recording in mind and you're wondering "what the heck are they playing here?" post another thread and ask somebody to break it down for you. Some of us will be able to say "OK, the guitar is playing THESE chords, in THIS tuning, the fiddle is playing THIS, the harp is playing THIS, and the low whistle is harmonizing thusly." and write out the notation for you. (Clearly some of us have too much time on our hands).
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
By the way, might I have seen your family in Water Valley, Alberta? (That would be a huge coincidence, but you never know!)
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Good advice for budding musicians, Kerri. A middling sort of advice for musicians who want to be players of Irish traditional music. I suppose it just depends on the kind of music they want to play.
Either is fine, of course. It just depends on what you want to play.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Yeah, I was trying to reply to Andrew's question from a broader musical perspective, since he himself never suggested he was concerned about being (wink) "traditional". He said "Irish music" not "Irish traditional music". He could be talking about U2 for all we know.
:^D
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
It's a fairly common experience, not only on this site, for someone to say something like "this tune's in G", when it's obviously Emin when played, or to find a tune that starts in Bmin but clearly finishes in Dmaj. This sort of thing knocks on the head any pretensions to an accurate statistical analysis of the modality of the tunes done "off the cuff" as it were. The only way to do it accurately is to analyse each tune individually, and that will take time - a LOT of time, bearing in mind that there are over 2700 tunes in this site's database - 2747 to be precise as of this moment in time
) - time that for me would be spent more productively in playing music.
Practically, it's a lot simpler to say something like "2 sharps and ends on B".
Trevor
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Thanks all of you for your opinions!
To answer various questions, I'm in Oregon(I've never been in Alberta), I like the Chieftans, and I'm all for playing Irish music in the traditional way, which is why I asked whether to harmonize or not.
I've listened to the Chieftans the most, and we'd like to play in that direction. They don't harmonize all the time but when they do it sounds great(to me at least). For example in "Strike the Gay Harp" from Chieftans 3, they start out with a few instruments playing the tune by itself the first time through. Then when they repeat one of the fiddles drops into harmony. On other tunes, you hear the whistles harmonize or do decorations above the tune. I guess what I was really wondering is how do you know when to do that, and how to do it?
-Andrew
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Andrew Plett
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Oh dear, this is going to be hard to explain. Well, Andrew, I'm afraid the closest that I personally can come is that you know that it's time to do it when you think it's right, and you do it how you think it sounds right in your ear. Whether anyone else will think it's right or whether anyone else thinks your version of right is indeed *correct* is in fact of little moment unless you care about their opinion.
Good luck!
The only way to do that is to listen listen listen and then listen some more. Make choices about how you want to play, and then make more choices as you keep listening. Sooner or later you will find that you will have narrowed down your own definitions of right for you, and will have developed a taste and standard that is unique to you.
As for how *technically* how to do it, you must study modal and chord theory, as Trevor was talking above. Harmonies and counterpoint will then fall into line rather naturally once you "hear" the chord structure inherent within the tune (and different musos will hear that chord structure different as their tastes warrant). You probably already have a certain taste in chord structure, if you listen to any music at all, you can't really help it. But the more music and styles you listen to, the wider your choices will range (or in some cases, the narrower, depending upon how narrow you define your tastes to, and there's nothing wrong with that just like there's nothing wrong with the former).
I really like the idea of listening to a great uilleann piper who uses his regulators well to get a feel for both the rhythms and harmonic chord structures in traditional Irish music. Paddy Keenan, for instance, is a classic choice, yet with a modern edge at times -- try picking up a copy of Doublin', with Paddy Glackin, for instance, but there are a ton of other pipers to listen to out there. I also like Robbie Hannon's album with Paddy Glackin as well. I'm sure others can give you more choices.
Whatever you do, have fun! Otherwise, what's the point?
Zina
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
P.S.
As to whether you should harmonize at all, well, it depends on you. As my teacher Shannon Heaton once told me, there's absolutely nothing wrong with just playing the damned tune.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Music theory can be quite confusing to someone who has never had any theory. I suggest that before you start studying theory, just listen, listen, listen, as Zina Lee suggests. Play music with a lot of people who play better than you do, starting when you were a kid, wherever possible. Improvising and harmonizing will eventually become intuitive. Then take a music theory course. The course I took at a college in Kalamazoo was an eye-opener. It was like finding a hidden room in my house that I never knew existed. Do not get addicted to sheet music. Play by ear. Sheet music is only the outlines, you must color it in according to your own tastes.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by rocking bow
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Actually, Andrew, you didn't ask whether or not to harmonize, you asked HOW to harmonize. I figured you'd get about thirty responses saying "Don't you DARE try to harmonize until you've been playing for thirty years!" so I thought I'd chuck in a couple of "go ahead! Harmonize your brains out!" comments just for balance. ;^D Zina made a great suggestion that you figure out things that sound "right" to your ear. That's what I think most people do.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Oh, I'm definitely in the "harmony should be used sparingly if at all" camp, myself. And I really dislike too much counterpoint, myself, I prefer to listen to the more subtle polyphony given to the stuff by people playing their own variations on the setting. But that's for me and my particular version of the music. And within "arranged" settings, I don't really mind it, and in fact quite enjoy it -- for instance, I adore Lunasa.
In fact, I'm no huge fan of the newer Solas stuff, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate it as good music, and I certainly know that Win Horan and Seamus Egan and everyone else in that band could play me under the table and right out the door at a session, with one hand tied behind their backs.
What will sound good and right to your ear *should* normally change as you go, though, I'll warn you -- otherwise you're not growing at all. Can't have that.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
ITM doesn't need any "filling out" or "harmonizing" it's plenty full and harmonious just the way it is thank you.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Y'know, I just KNEW that would be you, Jack. *snort*
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Personally, I harmonize everything I play....
:-|
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
LOL -- nice one. Nice one.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Rather obvious, though. Lately, I've been filling out, too.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Wow... I didn't think anyone else would be on line. I go over and start taking-the-piss-out-of the tune section, come back and find yous twos doing the same thing over here. I thought I was the only loser at home tonight. hi guys (waves)
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
It's Thursday, and usually a band practice night, but what the hey. They're practising without me since they are playing for, are you ready for this, a Maypole dance thing on May 2nd while I'll be in SF. Hey, Jack -- who's leading the session on Sunday and Monday night?
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Wait, it's Friday, isn't it? LOL -- what can I say, it's been a rather stressful couple of days...
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
It's John Sherry and Kyle Thayer... great sesh hosts. I'm doing a gig down the peninsula Sunday early evening, but I'll stop in afterwards. Bring some buscuits.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Zina, are you still gonna make it to Chicago for the Husqvarna thing?
Hi Jack. Hey I want to order the two Jody's Heaven cds from you. Aimee and Richard have them on their cd changer--great tunes, great musicianship, and I want to learn the reel written by your guitarist (can't spell his name). So I'll send you an email to get the ordering info.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Junji, you mean, Will? Yes, I'm going to Chicago, I'll fly into SF for the viewing and funeral, then on Monday or Tuesday (depending on whether the family needs me) into Chicago to teach. Then I'll stay for a few days with Su to help her get into her new house and then fly back in to Denver.
Jack, I'll have to see if I can get free on Sunday evening, but it'll all depend on when the funeral is and whether the family, specifically my dad, wants me there. But I will have my fiddle with me, and if I can, I'll get there.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Thanks Will -- I can post the ABCs for Junji's tune, it's called "Lady Mondegreen's" I helped him with the tune and suggested the title in honor of the fact that we named our band after a mondagreen of sorts. We wanted to know the name of one of the tunes we were going to record, and Junji found it on a recording and said, "Here it is, Jody's Heaven" (Jolly Seven) When we were trying to think of a name that could be pronounced by Japanese people... the solution was obvious.
Jody's Heaven website: http://pweb.jps.net/~jgilder/jody7.html
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
As a 'compulsive harmonist' I find it difficult to explain HOW to do it! I have a theory, however, that harmony often originates naturally ('traditionally') as a function of imperfect memory/musicianship, whatever! Often you sit in the corner and play bum notes quietly to yourself until you have got the shape of the tune, then, when it's coming, you go down when the tune should go up or you play a phrase in parallel at a third or a fifth difference - someone occasionally says "that's nice" and a harmony is born! It's just a theory, mind!
Having grown up as an accompanist, I find that I learn tunes initially by their chord pattern (most traditional tune phrases are built on an implied harmony or scale fragment which constrains the chords). Learn to listen to this and identify the strong notes in the phrase which define the scale for that phrase, then play other notes in that scale which are not outway dissonant. That's the way my jazz-playing brother puts it, anyway.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by tyto
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
I think Tyto described the process about right. As to whether or not you should................it does fill out the sound, and see the much earlier remark about the recordings of guys who knew the subject backwards, and knew which rules they were breaking - remember the Chieftains are about 103 years old each, and you can't buy that experience cheaply.
However...as a guitarist and lately bouzouki player, I nowadays only take the 'zouk to a session - why ? - because two guitars at a session is like two bodrhans - one too many. What you loose on the 'zouk in not being able to do any flat-picking in chording is pretty much lost in the noise anyway, and if a tune comes along I can play then I can drop into melody. When it's a tune I don't know/can't accompany, I'll just sit and be decorative. There's no rule says you have to play on everything.
# Posted on April 23rd 2004 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Unless you're playing in a "circle of death"
TRevor
# Posted on April 24th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
Andrew--
I envy you your family--being able to all play together whenever you want...
You've found the right site if you want to learn about this music. People here are passionate and knowledgable, and funny and testy too--like a big international family.
Search through previous discussions to find out about modal theory and chords--there are great teachers on this site too.
I play guitar, and am learning a lot from Chris Smith's book "Celtic Back-Up for all Instrumentalists." It's a Mel Bay book-should be available where you are. (Lot of folkies still around in Portland and Eugene and Corvallis I bet)
Best of luck, and have fun with the music--
Gena
# Posted on April 24th 2004 by gena
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
If you don't know what note to play, just guess. If you guess wrong (that is, the note is not in the chord), then you can try something different next time. Most people will play softer when they are unsure about what they should play.
# Posted on July 8th 2005 by Miltont
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
I'm actually doing a research project on traditional Irish Music when I came across this site :P I'm anylising and the composing my own music (theorically) After wading through many scores and essays I discovered that even though Irish tunes are usually modal, when arrangers and/or editiors/publishers came along they would begin to add parts and/or harmony and to do so, frequently turned the tune into a minor key (sneaky buggers) making them not so traditional but easier to harmonise. There should be heaps of these kinds of songs out there if your interested, try in music shops or even just libraries
# Posted on November 10th 2006 by Kaetra
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
One of the problems with this web site Keatra is the way the discussions are listed. By chance, you have responded to discussion number 3,797.
I'm afraid you will get little response, as we are now on to discussion number 11,720
# Posted on November 10th 2006 by ...
Re: Filling out/Harmonizing Irish music
resp
# Posted on November 10th 2006 by ethical blend