clawhammer is the accepted style, but the irish tenor seems to rock with old time,,,, i go to two weekly sessions to play guitar (or banjolin) at old time, and irish tenor at celtic, burt at home in my privacy i play old time on the tenor and am REALLY falling in love with the beat. i fantasize that it is re-cennecting to an older time, before the differny styles of music were all categorized. Can an irish tenor play Oldtime? What do clawhammer playes feel about that? Is this an appropriate forum to ask that question? ,
If you can do it, and it works, GREAT! I wish I could hear it.
What do you consider "old timey"? To some people, old timey is an open back clawhammer banjo and a fiddle - PERIOD! But those people are in the same category as the ones around here who say Irish trad is a bodhran and a whistle.
To me, old timey is the standard bluegrass songs played slower in a group where the banjo player doesn't use finger picks or play in the Earl Scruggs style.
I don't know about this. There's enough eedjits shouting out "Hey Jimmy, Gie us Duelling banjos" or "How about that tune from Deliverance? (I realise that they're both the same, by the way )
already. Well, I suppose we could just give them what they want. :-0)
You might be interested in reading the following article by Allen Feldman. He is a co-author of The Northern Fiddler, a book about fiddling in Donegal. He also plays old time banjo. The article seems to be pieced together from his contributions to Banjo-l, a banjo mailing list.
Sometimes at a party I'll get drunk and play Sally Anne on my flute. Maybe even Mississippi Sawyer. But there are few things I won't do...
"Old Timey" is a huge category. I'm pretty familiar with Southern Appalachian String Band Music (Old Time) because.... I live here... and play(ed) it a lot. If you look back through the history of that music and this region you can find an assortment of instruments - big, big lap dulcimers up around Galax, VA and even piano accordions. Saws, washboards - whatever. But just as with Irish music a standard has evolved into - at least regionally - a pretty commonly accepted tradition.
I think the important thing to remember with every discussion like this is that you really can play whatever the heck you want. Just remeber that when you're playing "traditional" music there is a standard that most people playing it are comfortable with and like. They don't have a right to smash your instrument and you don't have a right to smash their session by making it into something they won't like. Just be curteous and don't ram your innovations down other people's throats. Listen to what kind of music they're playing and if you won't fit in then don't play. Find other people to play with. Everyone will be happier.
That being said, I think the tenor banjo in Old Time is cool and I've heard it done well *emphasis on the well* a few times. It doesn't seem to stick out. A problem, sound-wise, for me is that clawhammer banjo is part rythm instrument. The whole bum-did-y-bum-did-y thing makes Old Time distinctive. You lose that with tenor banjo. I don't think I'd like the sound of a tenor replacing the clawhammer. But complimenting it in a jam or recording or something I think would be o.k. to my ears. That's just a taste thing, though.
Just remember that other people are every bit as entitled to their narrowminded, bigoted, purist opinions as you are to your uniformed, outsider, no sense of tradition ones
I realize that tenor banjos are not part of the modern tradition per se, but if you look at the pictures of old string bands you will see an occasional tenor probably used as a chord instrument as they were in the 20's and 30's in other genre. I will also point out that there was a three year period when Bill Monroe had an accordion in the band along with a "girl" singer. (Mostly to tweak the "traditional bluegrass" crowd.)
At a recent house session we changed from Irish trad to old time and the banjo made the switch with nary a problem. In fact there was also a clawhammer banjo player there and the two mixed very well. I suspect that in the right hands no one would object or even know the difference as long as the instrument was not a weapon of mass destruction as it can be in Irish sessions.
As Bill Monroe once said, "Listen to the fiddle and you can't go wrong." The tenor/Irish style banjo is not a clawhammer but more of a fiddle styled instrument. Or it can add a chordal structure that is acceptable in a string band situation as long as it is not overwhelming.
I play my little Orpheum #1 open back banjo in these situations and so far have been accepted by some otherwise "pure drop" old time players. I just look at them and tell them that some of the old string bands had tenor banjos and as long as I don't blink, they accept it.
The "girl" accordion player (Wilene Forrester) couln't have been used to tweak any traditional bluegrass crowd. There wasn't any bluegrass crowd. The term bluegrass wasn't used to apply to that genre till many years later. The band with the accordion player also contained Stringbean on banjo. He was a frailer, not a three-finger player. It was the addition of Scruggs in 1945 that helped to define the overall band sound that would later be called bluegrass.
thx so much for your replies, particularly mi keyes and jerball....i respect your opinions very much because you live near Appalachia. We have a fellow here who has arrived about two years ago ( his name is Carlos,his son is Dimitri, from NC, just in case you know him) who has stirred up a lot of Old time energy, got a bunch of sessions going and such. I have learned a lot from being together-in-a-groove with these players. Traditions, differences, innovations, social custums, whew, it all comes into play doesnt it? In Irish sessions there is the element of Alpha, the "leader" of the next tune, that creates great tension and exitement, but in old timey the tune itself is not going to change, (my god, even the key doesnt change!) so the tension and exitement comes from something else, maybe a battle (poor word, sorry) between holding back the rythem and pushing it forward?
......it is true that a tenor at an oldtime sessiion can overwhelm a clawhammer, and as you astutely said, a tenor functions closer to the fiddle unless it plays chords.......hmm i think this is what is so exiting about this instrument...somehow it breaks through both the accompanyment and the lead boundaries,,, ps my instrument is an orpheum as well, open back, huge head, mottly skin, 17 fret,,,I love this instrument SO much. I have played guitar for thirtyfive years, and tried the mandolin as well for many many years but was never happy.. all those teeny frets and multiforous strings and machine heads and nonsense.....
but as you said ..look at old pictures and you can plainly see the FOUR STRING TENOR. Any comments about the tenors history? I find that most fascinating - before the electric guitar got plugged in it was THE instrument of accomanyment......
apologies for the atrocious spellings, if you read this far hopefully you can read between the errors!,
I bet it's an interesting scene out in Vancouver. Sounds like fun; hope you're having a good time no matter what you do.
You should come visit Asheville some time. There's some great music here.
Last night was really cool. I went to an Irish session until about 11:30 and played some chunes then went and listened to a really good old-time jam until about 2. It was great.
I should have been more precise. I was referring to the 21st century traditional bluegrassers who demand that only certain instruments qualify for bluegrass and the others are forbidden. (A familiar argument elsewhere, too.) The accordion was part of WSM's attempt at finding a sound that would sell.
And I put "girl" in quotes as that is how she was referred to at the time.
Mike, I think it's interesting that Irish music has continued to add new instruments apace but bluegrass and old time music have been much more conservative. In a kind of musical role reversal, Brian Taheny plays reels and jigs on a resonophonic guitar. I heard banjoist Bill Evans say that he hoped the dobro would be the last instrument to be added to bluegrass. Evans is not a bluegrass curmudgeon by any means and doesn't limit his own playing to bluegrass.
I personally think that 5-string banjo and fiddle are the heart of old time music and everything be damned (especially basses), although I have enjoyed playing 5-string with both mandolins and tenor banjos. The 5-string and tenor banjo by themselves produce a pretty good sound with a tenor player who understands the music.
Not to interrupt (I don't know much about Old Time at all and have even less opinions about what kind of banjos belong in it), but "girl" is even now still acceptable in Ireland for any woman of any age whatsoever. (Is it in Last Night's Fun that someone writes about one older woman singer calling out for another song from another older singer something like, "That girl there, can we have another song from her?"
This has been carefully explained to me by my Irish women friends who are living in America, because, I suppose, I looked rather stunned to be referred to as a girl by both men and women in their homes.
using tenors with old timey
using tenors with old timey
clawhammer is the accepted style, but the irish tenor seems to rock with old time,,,, i go to two weekly sessions to play guitar (or banjolin) at old time, and irish tenor at celtic, burt at home in my privacy i play old time on the tenor and am REALLY falling in love with the beat. i fantasize that it is re-cennecting to an older time, before the differny styles of music were all categorized. Can an irish tenor play Oldtime? What do clawhammer playes feel about that? Is this an appropriate forum to ask that question? ,
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: using tenors with old timey
Where is Tanya when you need her?
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: using tenors with old timey
Geoff - swearing is not aloud on this site.
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: using tenors with old timey
If you can do it, and it works, GREAT! I wish I could hear it.
What do you consider "old timey"? To some people, old timey is an open back clawhammer banjo and a fiddle - PERIOD! But those people are in the same category as the ones around here who say Irish trad is a bodhran and a whistle.
To me, old timey is the standard bluegrass songs played slower in a group where the banjo player doesn't use finger picks or play in the Earl Scruggs style.
OBTW, I'm learning clawhammer banjo.
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by tocotodo
Re: using tenors with old timey
I don't know about this. There's enough eedjits shouting out "Hey Jimmy, Gie us Duelling banjos" or "How about that tune from Deliverance? (I realise that they're both the same, by the way
)
already. Well, I suppose we could just give them what they want. :-0)
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by Johannes J
Re: using tenors with old timey
You might be interested in reading the following article by Allen Feldman. He is a co-author of The Northern Fiddler, a book about fiddling in Donegal. He also plays old time banjo. The article seems to be pieced together from his contributions to Banjo-l, a banjo mailing list.
http://www.dwightdiller.com/bluegrass.html
Steve
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by SteveKendall
Re: using tenors with old timey
Sometimes at a party I'll get drunk and play Sally Anne on my flute. Maybe even Mississippi Sawyer. But there are few things I won't do...
"Old Timey" is a huge category. I'm pretty familiar with Southern Appalachian String Band Music (Old Time) because.... I live here... and play(ed) it a lot. If you look back through the history of that music and this region you can find an assortment of instruments - big, big lap dulcimers up around Galax, VA and even piano accordions. Saws, washboards - whatever. But just as with Irish music a standard has evolved into - at least regionally - a pretty commonly accepted tradition.
I think the important thing to remember with every discussion like this is that you really can play whatever the heck you want. Just remeber that when you're playing "traditional" music there is a standard that most people playing it are comfortable with and like. They don't have a right to smash your instrument and you don't have a right to smash their session by making it into something they won't like. Just be curteous and don't ram your innovations down other people's throats. Listen to what kind of music they're playing and if you won't fit in then don't play. Find other people to play with. Everyone will be happier.
That being said, I think the tenor banjo in Old Time is cool and I've heard it done well *emphasis on the well* a few times. It doesn't seem to stick out. A problem, sound-wise, for me is that clawhammer banjo is part rythm instrument. The whole bum-did-y-bum-did-y thing makes Old Time distinctive. You lose that with tenor banjo. I don't think I'd like the sound of a tenor replacing the clawhammer. But complimenting it in a jam or recording or something I think would be o.k. to my ears. That's just a taste thing, though.
Just remember that other people are every bit as entitled to their narrowminded, bigoted, purist opinions as you are to your uniformed, outsider, no sense of tradition ones
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by jerball
Re: using tenors with old timey
"...Irish trad is a bodhran and a whistle."
Bodhran? Well, I suppose it's traditional if you use it as a winnowing tray.
# Posted on April 21st 2004 by ragaman
Re: using tenors with old timey
I realize that tenor banjos are not part of the modern tradition per se, but if you look at the pictures of old string bands you will see an occasional tenor probably used as a chord instrument as they were in the 20's and 30's in other genre. I will also point out that there was a three year period when Bill Monroe had an accordion in the band along with a "girl" singer. (Mostly to tweak the "traditional bluegrass" crowd.)
At a recent house session we changed from Irish trad to old time and the banjo made the switch with nary a problem. In fact there was also a clawhammer banjo player there and the two mixed very well. I suspect that in the right hands no one would object or even know the difference as long as the instrument was not a weapon of mass destruction as it can be in Irish sessions.
As Bill Monroe once said, "Listen to the fiddle and you can't go wrong." The tenor/Irish style banjo is not a clawhammer but more of a fiddle styled instrument. Or it can add a chordal structure that is acceptable in a string band situation as long as it is not overwhelming.
I play my little Orpheum #1 open back banjo in these situations and so far have been accepted by some otherwise "pure drop" old time players. I just look at them and tell them that some of the old string bands had tenor banjos and as long as I don't blink, they accept it.
# Posted on April 21st 2004 by mikeyes
Re: using tenors with old timey
The "girl" accordion player (Wilene Forrester) couln't have been used to tweak any traditional bluegrass crowd. There wasn't any bluegrass crowd. The term bluegrass wasn't used to apply to that genre till many years later. The band with the accordion player also contained Stringbean on banjo. He was a frailer, not a three-finger player. It was the addition of Scruggs in 1945 that helped to define the overall band sound that would later be called bluegrass.
Steve
# Posted on April 21st 2004 by SteveKendall
Re: using tenors with old timey
hey I tried soldier's joy on my uilleann pipes and found it "amazing" that I could play it and 2) that people recognized the tune
# Posted on April 21st 2004 by I_Fel
Re: using tenors with old timey
thx so much for your replies, particularly mi keyes and jerball....i respect your opinions very much because you live near Appalachia. We have a fellow here who has arrived about two years ago ( his name is Carlos,his son is Dimitri, from NC, just in case you know him) who has stirred up a lot of Old time energy, got a bunch of sessions going and such. I have learned a lot from being together-in-a-groove with these players. Traditions, differences, innovations, social custums, whew, it all comes into play doesnt it? In Irish sessions there is the element of Alpha, the "leader" of the next tune, that creates great tension and exitement, but in old timey the tune itself is not going to change, (my god, even the key doesnt change!) so the tension and exitement comes from something else, maybe a battle (poor word, sorry) between holding back the rythem and pushing it forward?
......it is true that a tenor at an oldtime sessiion can overwhelm a clawhammer, and as you astutely said, a tenor functions closer to the fiddle unless it plays chords.......hmm i think this is what is so exiting about this instrument...somehow it breaks through both the accompanyment and the lead boundaries,,, ps my instrument is an orpheum as well, open back, huge head, mottly skin, 17 fret,,,I love this instrument SO much. I have played guitar for thirtyfive years, and tried the mandolin as well for many many years but was never happy.. all those teeny frets and multiforous strings and machine heads and nonsense.....
but as you said ..look at old pictures and you can plainly see the FOUR STRING TENOR. Any comments about the tenors history? I find that most fascinating - before the electric guitar got plugged in it was THE instrument of accomanyment......
apologies for the atrocious spellings, if you read this far hopefully you can read between the errors!,
# Posted on April 21st 2004 by vboyd100
Re: using tenors with old timey
vboyd,
I bet it's an interesting scene out in Vancouver. Sounds like fun; hope you're having a good time no matter what you do.
You should come visit Asheville some time. There's some great music here.
Last night was really cool. I went to an Irish session until about 11:30 and played some chunes then went and listened to a really good old-time jam until about 2. It was great.
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by jerball
Re: using tenors with old timey
Steve,
I should have been more precise. I was referring to the 21st century traditional bluegrassers who demand that only certain instruments qualify for bluegrass and the others are forbidden. (A familiar argument elsewhere, too.) The accordion was part of WSM's attempt at finding a sound that would sell.
And I put "girl" in quotes as that is how she was referred to at the time.
Mike Keyes
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by mikeyes
Re: using tenors with old timey
Mike, I think it's interesting that Irish music has continued to add new instruments apace but bluegrass and old time music have been much more conservative. In a kind of musical role reversal, Brian Taheny plays reels and jigs on a resonophonic guitar. I heard banjoist Bill Evans say that he hoped the dobro would be the last instrument to be added to bluegrass. Evans is not a bluegrass curmudgeon by any means and doesn't limit his own playing to bluegrass.
I personally think that 5-string banjo and fiddle are the heart of old time music and everything be damned (especially basses), although I have enjoyed playing 5-string with both mandolins and tenor banjos. The 5-string and tenor banjo by themselves produce a pretty good sound with a tenor player who understands the music.
Steve
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by SteveKendall
Re: using tenors with old timey
Not to interrupt (I don't know much about Old Time at all and have even less opinions about what kind of banjos belong in it), but "girl" is even now still acceptable in Ireland for any woman of any age whatsoever. (Is it in Last Night's Fun that someone writes about one older woman singer calling out for another song from another older singer something like, "That girl there, can we have another song from her?"
This has been carefully explained to me by my Irish women friends who are living in America, because, I suppose, I looked rather stunned to be referred to as a girl by both men and women in their homes.
# Posted on April 22nd 2004 by Zina Lee