What is one tune you consider just totally beat into the ground, and more important - when did you have the realization that it was overplayed?
I was teaching a jig the other day, which got me to thinking about the first jigs I ever learned, which I now consider "beginner" tunes, but in fact some of them are still pretty cool. So now I'm wondering, what tunes do you disdain, and when did you start feeling that way about them? Why?
We have had this discussion so many times. Some might even suggest it was getting a little tired now.
Seriously though. It depends a lot on where you are and the company you keep, thus what tunes in a repertoire get "played out" differ from pub to pub, town to town. We all have our own pet hates. For instance, "The Kesh jig" is much maligned on this site but I still hear it played frequently in most sessions I go to and nobody complains. A month or two back, I heard some of the very best local musicians(in Edinburgh) playing the "Geese in the Bog", albeit along with other more interesting tunes, quite happily.
As for "beginner tunes", I have noticed a trend where tutors go out of their way to teach either more obscure tunes or those which may be "trendy" or in fashion. As a result, some of these newbie musicians can be playing for a few years without knowing any of the standards let alone overplaying them. These "different" tunes can also get played out within these particular circles and, yet, be comparitively unknown elsewhere.
Can we vote for tunes we're not tired of, even if some people think they are "beginner tunes"? e.g. I never get tired of playing The Frost Is All Over and The Connaughtman's Rambles. And stick The Battering Ram at the front of them and you've got a nice little set, which I think answers another discussion
How about popular tunes that are just not really very good tunes.
I think the "tired tunes" are tired precisely because they are great tunes with a lot of room for improvisation and original thinking to come into the music.
There are some tunes that are just bad musically but somehow have made it into the A lists of tunes played. It takes a bit more arrogance to say a tune is *bad* instead of that we are simply tired of it.
Here is my short list of truly *bad* tunes:
* Morrison's
* Miss McCleod's
* Concertina (at least, when not played on a Concertina)
As usual, the session fascist has the answer to everything. I have got into the habit of getting rid of all the tired old tunes early in the evening in one big set, playing them once through each. Then if any latecomers try tired tunes, they are greeted with shouts of "Repetition".
As I am often the first there, shouts of "Repetition" usually work anyway, even if the tunes have not been played as no-one is any wiser.
Similarly, anyone who plays tunes I don't like, will be greeted with their tune as soon as they walk in through the door so they can't play them again.
At a recent session Trip to Durrow (tfh) was one of the first few tunes played ... great, we got it out of the way. 30 minutes later, a person arrives and starts the tune. Ok, we're nice and play it again. Hour later, another late arrival decides to start the same tune. I shout that we've already played it twice, and the person says "but I haven't played it!"
...Sometimes, the same person starts the same tune three times in the same session. This is particularly frustrating when it's a musician whom you know to have a vast and varied repertoire, but is too inebriated to rememeber which tunes they've already played. O! The trials one endures being a teetotal trad player!
I came into ITM at a peculiar juncture it seems. I showed up after the old guard got tired of the standards and started playing Frankie and Mairead's tunes. I would hear a whole bunch of tunes that would come up but were considered a little out of date, and I learned some of these by osmosis, but the focus was clearly on these new tunes. I learned the northern versions of session standards before I learned the session standards themselves in some cases. For this reason many of the "tired old tunes" are actually new to me... and I like them. There are exceptions to this of course because certain tunes would show up all the time being played in a way that seemed like the lowest common denominator version designed for beginners. This small body of tunes ended up having a bad association and almost instantly became tired. I think this is the crux of what makes a tune "tired" -- it's association.
I tell you what are some tired and/or overplayed tunes.
1) Stairway to Heaven
2) Smoke on the Water
3) Free Bird
Seeing that probably ony one percent of the population (if that) ever heard of the "Kesh Jig" I don't think it is in the remotest danger of being overplayed....and let us not forget that Irish musican's get gigs and fiddle teachers get student's because newbies are intrigued by tunes like the Masons Apron.
They are all good tunes!!!
I would suggest anyone who is bored try
a) Mixing in some variations.
b) Practicing a particular ornament.
c) Harmonising (of the nice soaring variety esp.!)
d) Nice little "non-musican" IE background musical stuff.
e) Plaing the tune on a different instrument.
Oh come on - none of you guys even tried to answer the question.
When did such-and-such tune become old to you? How long had you known it? Did it only become old in your mind because session-mates viewed it that way, or because you yourself have played it to death?
Obviously everyone's circle is different and the repertoire is different. That's why I only asked for one tune. I want to know when in your playing career that tune went from great/cool/whatever to old. For you. Not for anybody else.
I'll answer your question...After I've played it 50,000 times over a period of 50 years it would get probably get old. I'd probably still like it but it would at that point be fair to say it was old. I personally, being much more inclined to positive thinking, would much rather think about tunes that I never seem to tire of playing...as sugested above.
And Eliot
I'm curious what credential's you have that qualify you as an authority on what makes a tune "Truly Bad." It takes a bit more than "arrogance" to make such claims.
And what is the basis of your claim that the tunes you listed above are bad? How so? What, in your considered opinion makes them flawed "truly bad" tunes.
Chef Paul - "it would probably" - I didn't ask "when would ," I asked "when did ". Is that really so hard to understand?
Here, let me demonstrate: I learned "Morrison's Jig" in 1991, it was probably the 12th or 13th jig I ever learned. My friends and I played it every weekend in the spring and summer at the Renaissance Faire, at least a dozen times in the daytime and probably a few more times at night in our after-hours jams. We did this for years. I think it's a great tune, I love the driving energy in it.
I clearly remember one day in 2000, I had waken up from a dream in which I was watching some fiddle player performing somewhere. In this dream, she was wowing the audience and she launched into "Morrison's Jig." At that point in the dream I said to myself "big deal, I can play that in my sleep." And a few moments later I woke up. And that's when it dawned on me, that this really great, fun, dynamic tune was due for retirement.
I don't see this as thinking negatively, I see it as looking for insight into how tunes cycle thru their lives. The next relevant question is "how long did you let a tune lie fallow before picking it back up again and playing it frequently?" For one specific tune that you retired and have since returned to, how long did you leave it? When did it become "OK" to you to play it again?
If you don't want to think about the question, and don't want to answer it, that's cool. Don't post.
I did/do understand the question sir, you're right it isn't hard to understand. I don't think I've ever had any specific moment when It occured to me that it was time to retire a tune. Especially a tune I am fond of.
Actually, I guess there was that time when I was about twenty when I swore I would never ever for any reason listen want to hear Pink Floyd's "The Wall" because I had a room mate who played it 24/7 for months and months on end....but I do digress here....sorry.
Road To Lisdoonvarna is a pleasant tune, no doubt. Locally, it's been played to death here for the last 20 some years. I'm certain that there are tunes that are new, fresh and challenging to me that, were I to play them in another locale, would elicit a "ho hum, not that one again" response.
I don't make a conscious effort to stop playing a tune but newer, different, and sometimes better(though not always) ones come along and the overplayed tunes drop out of my own repertoire naturally. However, in a session, the choice of repertoire is made for you to a certain extent--unless you can adopt the role of session dictator. Then you might get to play whatever you want but probably on your own. So, I suppose it's natural that we'll encounter tunes in a session situation that sound a bit overplayed to us from time to time.
I've been thinking - but not too hard - that for me, tired tunes have an association with musicians who play the same tunes, or sets of tunes year after year. The needless repetition of the same tunes over and over again conjures up the image of a musician who is complacent about their music and doesn't really care to work hard enough to develop into well rounded musicians. This is not to say that anyone who plays The Road To Lisdoonvarna - or any other tune - is complacent, but that to trot it out year after year, gig after gig, does become tedious and tiresome. So, for me, a delightful tune can become a chore and a burden to play.
Rose in the Heather. One of the first jigs I ever learned, courtesy of my fiddle player who picked it up from a contra dance fiddler from Western Mass. Hated it, hated it, hated it. I remember the exact moment I converted. Was driving through southwestern Colorado, just after dawn, meadows with flowers, purple mountains in the distance, & was listening to The Quiet Glen by Tommy Peoples. It was like this breakthrough, permission to fool around with the tune! It's still not a favorite, it's one of those that can really be butchered, so though I really like my version now, I'm sure there are variations out there that will improve it immensely. But fwiw, I'm still on the blindly optimistic side that all tunes deserve a fighting chance.
I have a tired old set. It's not from a session. At a renaissance festival I play every summer, there are many instrumental groups scattered over the grounds. One day we started out playing Road to lisdoonvarna/swallowtail/morrison's a lovely set IMO. By the end of the day I ran into no less than 4 other groups and individuals (there may have been more) playing the exact set. We decided not to play it there anymore because it was too common for the venue and didn't set us apart in any obvious way. We only really take it out now when theres a jam going between a bunch of groups.
What credentials does one need to have an opinion about a piece of music?
If you want to know more about me, and are serious about knowing if my opinion is worthy of your respect, you can do a google search on my name: "Eliot Jacobson" -- you will get about 10 pages of results. Almost all those links are me.
No disrespect intended, as a lover of cards, especially hold-em, and a forty something parent on my second marriage as well I'm sure we would have good craic if per chance we ever we to meet. To answer your question, my daughter has been opinionated about music since she was three years old, so certainly and obviously no-one needs "credentials" to have an opinion.
In your above post you did make mention of the fact that you were being "arrogant," perhaps "bold" would have been a better word. I'll check into some of links when I get a chance (it's very a busy day today for me).
I was/am curious about your reasons for concluding the tunes you mentioned were "bad". Musically speaking why are they bad? I'm not asking for 10 wesites worth of credentials, but rather, for a bit of clarification. If I said "Eliot is on my short list of truly bad people" I would certainly have my reasons. Right?
Morrison's in particular is one of my favorites. It's definitely not one of the core tunes played around here but I think propells right along, has a rugged (for lack of a better word) feel to it, and a nice little crescendo to conclude the B part.
I still think I might have answered your question, HighandSun, when I suggested that association is what makes a good tune become tired. If you read through this thread you'll find that most people identify a negative association of some sort that turned a tune they originally liked into a “tired” one. The trick might be to try to avoid the negative association on tunes you like to prevent them from becoming “tired.” The discussion of what constitutes a "bad tune" is for a different thread I suppose.
Morrison's has a hugely open melody, nothing interesting, the first part hanging out on the 1 and 5 and doing nothing with them. The middle part is barely adequate, but the last part really falls flat. Three short phrases that each come to a complete stop before going on. And they are trite phrases at that. This gives no ability to make it a tune that has motion.
It is a good beginning tune because it gives the appearance of having something. But in truth the tune is an empty shell, without hope of ever becomming interesting.
Everyone has favorite tunes, and tunes they don't like and refuse to play. Some of us just have one or two of the latter, and others have a longer list. When I compare the lists of "favorite tunes" and "tunes I won't play" of various friends of mine, I'll find the despised tune showing up on someone else's list as a favorite, and vise-versa. What does this tell us? One man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter."
Fair enough. The first part does hang out on the 1 and 5. I like the room you have for variations. But whatever.
You have very strong opinions sir ("...the tune is an empty shell without the hope of ever becoming interesting!") That you would claim your opinion to be "humble" in one post and "arrogant" in another is somewhat telling, for a card player don't you think?
I'm a newbie on this site just looking for a bit of craic, a few laughs and a friendly debate or two.
I was going to ask why playing "Concertina" on a concertina would make the tune itself any better and why it should make any difference, but I'm thinking this could go on all night when I'd much rather be out in the parking lot with my staff having a beer and a few laughs. Not being one for negativity or one who confuses heat with light I think I'll pass on those questions...for now.
"An old tune is not old to someone that has just heard it, new ones come and go and go and go!!!"
Exactly right! I'm still building the foundation of my ITM repetoire and that includes the session "standards". What is new, fresh and exciting to me may well be one of those tired, over-played tunes to someone else. Since I know my local session mates fairly well, I don't have to worry too much about what I play. When visiting other sessions I'm a little more circumspect and cautious about what tunes I lead off with. And that's not any kind of a problem since I'm more interested in finding out what other folks are playing than in going out of town to play tunes that I already know.
As I said earlier, many of the younger or newer(not always as young) musicians are building up repertoires without knowing or learning many of the standards. I have seen some of them in a session playing excellent sets (which nobody else knows) yet they have to sit out the well known tunes. Of course, they ought to be encouraged to learn different tunes too(we should all do this) but there should be a balance between the old and the new.
Interestingly, some of the "tired tunes" nominated here, I've never heard of. Although I don't get to a session every week, I attend a wide variety.
Once I was at a drunken session where the fiddler jokingly started up "Duelling Banjos". A booming middle-class English accent then emanated from a bearded wooly jumper folk-club type nearby "Oh, not that old chestnut!".
I'm afraid that has now become a catch phrase with certain friends who love winding up folk like this almost as much as they love a good tune, or even a bad one .
I think that no matter what genre of music it is, if you hear the same old tunes or songs over and over again, you will grow weary of them. I remember always hearing the same old "classic rock" songs at college parties and functions like Van Morrison's Brown Eyed Girl, Don Mclean's American Pie, the Rolling Stones (I can't get no) Satisfaction....oh and I once swore I'd hang myself if we all had to sing along to the Piano Man again....After college, I couldn't listen to that stuff for years!!! Now when I hear these songs at weddings or in the grocery store, I just smile and remember the good old days of smelly dorm rooms, toga parties, and many good friends......
Ok, back to Irish music : ) I agree with Emily and Michael Gill. All tunes deserve a chance. It's about *who* plays the tune and *how* they play the tune that counts. I heard Connaughtman's Rambles played this weekend by top notch musicians in a lovely session after a couple jigs I hadn't heard before. CR sounded really great! If a "tired old tune" is in the right hands, it can really come back to life. Another good example by Tommy Peoples is his version of the Blarney Pilgrim that he likes to perform. Simply gorgeous! Emily, remember hearing Kevin and Jimmy play the Silver Spear on the Boston Harbor cruise? That totally rocked my world!
Yes! Yes yes! Brilliant.... it was Kevin, Jimmy, Cillian, Michelle Mulcahy (on fiddle, that night), Kathleen Coneely & who was on bouzouki? My god what a great session. Who am I leaving out?
Hi Emily, was Kathleen's husband, Michael Shorrock playing bouzouki that night? Yes, it was an unforgettable session!
I just ordered John Wynne's CD for the second time! I sure I'll find my first copy as soon as I receive the second one : ) I also ordered the second Na Connery CD too.
Yeah, that's the CD I'm speaking of, the second Na Connerys with Road to Rio, I don't have With Every Breath *yet*, wait til I get settled at a new address before ordering any more CDs off the internet. In February my parents ordered Bothy 1975 & Michael Coleman double CD from Custy's for my birthday, & they still haven't arrived. I'm worried they'll arrive after I'm long gone!
Emily, you may want to contact Custy's. I ordered a CD (Irish names I don't remember) with flute and box. It never came so I finally sent an email. I got an apology and they explained the CD was out of print temporarily.
Yeah, that's what my parents said, one was out of print but the other thing was that they were re-organizing inventory, & to try back later. Ah well, Irish time *is* a wonderful thing!
PS I'll take your second copy of John Wynne if/when it surfaces!
Ok Emily, I'm sure it will turn up somewhere, someday and when it does, it will have your name on it.....I figured if and when it does resurface in my "crack den" someone will want to have it : )
I can't remember which of the many players who've had a hand in teaching me said it, but I've tried to keep it in mind ever since: "If you get bored with a tune, it's your own fault." They were, of course, talking about variations and finding that hidden note that re-illuminates the tune for you.
My tired tune has to be the Kesh Jig. Not because I'm actually tired of playing it but rather because everytime I have to opportunity to go to a workshop and "learn" something... in at least one class, the tune to learn is "kesh". I've learned it on flute, whistle, harp, fiddle etc etc etc. All it needs is words, and I bet I'd learn it in a voice class. I'm actually thrilled when it comes up at a session as for sure I know I can play along with that one... I'd just like to learn something else!
Tired old tunes
Tired old tunes
What is one tune you consider just totally beat into the ground, and more important - when did you have the realization that it was overplayed?
I was teaching a jig the other day, which got me to thinking about the first jigs I ever learned, which I now consider "beginner" tunes, but in fact some of them are still pretty cool. So now I'm wondering, what tunes do you disdain, and when did you start feeling that way about them? Why?
# Posted on April 9th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Tired old tunes
Just one tune? What a tease! I just love it when somebody fires up the slide/jig The Road To Lisdoonvarna.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Bill Reeder
Re: Tired old tunes
Lord Gordon's - almost instantly
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Just a person
Re: Tired old tunes
Being the good natured fool that I am it's difficult for me to come up with truly *tired old tunes*. I do occassionally run into *tired old threads*
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Tusong200
Re: Tired old tunes
We have had this discussion so many times. Some might even suggest it was getting a little tired now.
Seriously though. It depends a lot on where you are and the company you keep, thus what tunes in a repertoire get "played out" differ from pub to pub, town to town. We all have our own pet hates. For instance, "The Kesh jig" is much maligned on this site but I still hear it played frequently in most sessions I go to and nobody complains. A month or two back, I heard some of the very best local musicians(in Edinburgh) playing the "Geese in the Bog", albeit along with other more interesting tunes, quite happily.
As for "beginner tunes", I have noticed a trend where tutors go out of their way to teach either more obscure tunes or those which may be "trendy" or in fashion. As a result, some of these newbie musicians can be playing for a few years without knowing any of the standards let alone overplaying them. These "different" tunes can also get played out within these particular circles and, yet, be comparitively unknown elsewhere.
John
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Johannes J
Re: Tired old tunes
Great minds think alike, Tusong. You beat me to it , though.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Johannes J
Re: Tired old tunes
Can we vote for tunes we're not tired of, even if some people think they are "beginner tunes"? e.g. I never get tired of playing The Frost Is All Over and The Connaughtman's Rambles. And stick The Battering Ram at the front of them and you've got a nice little set, which I think answers another discussion
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Just a person
Re: Tired old tunes
"Can we vote for tunes we're not tired of"
Yeah! The Kesh Jig!
Just listen to the Bothies play it on their "Afterhours" album. Fantastic!
-Max
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Tired old tunes
How about popular tunes that are just not really very good tunes.
I think the "tired tunes" are tired precisely because they are great tunes with a lot of room for improvisation and original thinking to come into the music.
There are some tunes that are just bad musically but somehow have made it into the A lists of tunes played. It takes a bit more arrogance to say a tune is *bad* instead of that we are simply tired of it.
Here is my short list of truly *bad* tunes:
* Morrison's
* Miss McCleod's
* Concertina (at least, when not played on a Concertina)
Is this a new thread yet?
--Eliot
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Repeating tired old tunes - say no!
As usual, the session fascist has the answer to everything. I have got into the habit of getting rid of all the tired old tunes early in the evening in one big set, playing them once through each. Then if any latecomers try tired tunes, they are greeted with shouts of "Repetition".
As I am often the first there, shouts of "Repetition" usually work anyway, even if the tunes have not been played as no-one is any wiser.
Similarly, anyone who plays tunes I don't like, will be greeted with their tune as soon as they walk in through the door so they can't play them again.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Tired old tunes
Nice strategy Geoff --
At a recent session Trip to Durrow (tfh) was one of the first few tunes played ... great, we got it out of the way. 30 minutes later, a person arrives and starts the tune. Ok, we're nice and play it again. Hour later, another late arrival decides to start the same tune. I shout that we've already played it twice, and the person says "but I haven't played it!"
Sometimes it's just hopeless.
--Eliot
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Tired old tunes
...Sometimes, the same person starts the same tune three times in the same session. This is particularly frustrating when it's a musician whom you know to have a vast and varied repertoire, but is too inebriated to rememeber which tunes they've already played. O! The trials one endures being a teetotal trad player!
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by ragaman
Re: Tired old tunes
That reminds me David, are you going to the Plough later?
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Just a person
Re: Tired old tunes
I came into ITM at a peculiar juncture it seems. I showed up after the old guard got tired of the standards and started playing Frankie and Mairead's tunes. I would hear a whole bunch of tunes that would come up but were considered a little out of date, and I learned some of these by osmosis, but the focus was clearly on these new tunes. I learned the northern versions of session standards before I learned the session standards themselves in some cases. For this reason many of the "tired old tunes" are actually new to me... and I like them. There are exceptions to this of course because certain tunes would show up all the time being played in a way that seemed like the lowest common denominator version designed for beginners. This small body of tunes ended up having a bad association and almost instantly became tired. I think this is the crux of what makes a tune "tired" -- it's association.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tired old tunes
I tell you what are some tired and/or overplayed tunes.
1) Stairway to Heaven
2) Smoke on the Water
3) Free Bird
Seeing that probably ony one percent of the population (if that) ever heard of the "Kesh Jig" I don't think it is in the remotest danger of being overplayed....and let us not forget that Irish musican's get gigs and fiddle teachers get student's because newbies are intrigued by tunes like the Masons Apron.
They are all good tunes!!!
I would suggest anyone who is bored try
a) Mixing in some variations.
b) Practicing a particular ornament.
c) Harmonising (of the nice soaring variety esp.!)
d) Nice little "non-musican" IE background musical stuff.
e) Plaing the tune on a different instrument.
Cheers!
P
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Tired old tunes
Oh come on - none of you guys even tried to answer the question.
When did such-and-such tune become old to you? How long had you known it? Did it only become old in your mind because session-mates viewed it that way, or because you yourself have played it to death?
Obviously everyone's circle is different and the repertoire is different. That's why I only asked for one tune. I want to know when in your playing career that tune went from great/cool/whatever to old. For you. Not for anybody else.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Tired old tunes
No such thing as a tired old tune. Only tired old musicians
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Tired old tunes
Haha! Michael, that's great!
-Max
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Tired old tunes
OK, that's the last time I try to get a question answered around here. Sheesh.
And yes, I used the "Search" and read several old threads that talked about "old tunes" - but none of them answered the question of "when."
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Tired old tunes
Ok Highland...
I'll answer your question...After I've played it 50,000 times over a period of 50 years it would get probably get old. I'd probably still like it but it would at that point be fair to say it was old. I personally, being much more inclined to positive thinking, would much rather think about tunes that I never seem to tire of playing...as sugested above.
And Eliot
I'm curious what credential's you have that qualify you as an authority on what makes a tune "Truly Bad." It takes a bit more than "arrogance" to make such claims.
And what is the basis of your claim that the tunes you listed above are bad? How so? What, in your considered opinion makes them flawed "truly bad" tunes.
I'd really like to know.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Tired old tunes
Chef Paul - "it would probably" - I didn't ask "when would ," I asked "when did ". Is that really so hard to understand?
Here, let me demonstrate: I learned "Morrison's Jig" in 1991, it was probably the 12th or 13th jig I ever learned. My friends and I played it every weekend in the spring and summer at the Renaissance Faire, at least a dozen times in the daytime and probably a few more times at night in our after-hours jams. We did this for years. I think it's a great tune, I love the driving energy in it.
I clearly remember one day in 2000, I had waken up from a dream in which I was watching some fiddle player performing somewhere. In this dream, she was wowing the audience and she launched into "Morrison's Jig." At that point in the dream I said to myself "big deal, I can play that in my sleep." And a few moments later I woke up. And that's when it dawned on me, that this really great, fun, dynamic tune was due for retirement.
I don't see this as thinking negatively, I see it as looking for insight into how tunes cycle thru their lives. The next relevant question is "how long did you let a tune lie fallow before picking it back up again and playing it frequently?" For one specific tune that you retired and have since returned to, how long did you leave it? When did it become "OK" to you to play it again?
If you don't want to think about the question, and don't want to answer it, that's cool. Don't post.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Tired old tunes
Bill Reeder said: Just one tune? What a tease! I just love it when somebody fires up the slide/jig The Road To Lisdoonvarna
Hey Bill! I like Lisdoonvarna, one of my favorites. :( guess not every one loves it
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by an_all_irish_girl
Re: Tired old tunes
Highland
I did/do understand the question sir, you're right it isn't hard to understand. I don't think I've ever had any specific moment when It occured to me that it was time to retire a tune. Especially a tune I am fond of.
Actually, I guess there was that time when I was about twenty when I swore I would never ever for any reason listen want to hear Pink Floyd's "The Wall" because I had a room mate who played it 24/7 for months and months on end....but I do digress here....sorry.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Tired old tunes
Road To Lisdoonvarna is a pleasant tune, no doubt. Locally, it's been played to death here for the last 20 some years. I'm certain that there are tunes that are new, fresh and challenging to me that, were I to play them in another locale, would elicit a "ho hum, not that one again" response.
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Bill Reeder
Re: Tired old tunes
I don't make a conscious effort to stop playing a tune but newer, different, and sometimes better(though not always) ones come along and the overplayed tunes drop out of my own repertoire naturally. However, in a session, the choice of repertoire is made for you to a certain extent--unless you can adopt the role of session dictator. Then you might get to play whatever you want but probably on your own. So, I suppose it's natural that we'll encounter tunes in a session situation that sound a bit overplayed to us from time to time.
John
# Posted on April 10th 2004 by Johannes J
Re: Tired old tunes
I've been thinking - but not too hard - that for me, tired tunes have an association with musicians who play the same tunes, or sets of tunes year after year. The needless repetition of the same tunes over and over again conjures up the image of a musician who is complacent about their music and doesn't really care to work hard enough to develop into well rounded musicians. This is not to say that anyone who plays The Road To Lisdoonvarna - or any other tune - is complacent, but that to trot it out year after year, gig after gig, does become tedious and tiresome. So, for me, a delightful tune can become a chore and a burden to play.
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Bill Reeder
Re: Tired old tunes
OK Howard, I'll bite.
Rose in the Heather. One of the first jigs I ever learned, courtesy of my fiddle player who picked it up from a contra dance fiddler from Western Mass. Hated it, hated it, hated it. I remember the exact moment I converted. Was driving through southwestern Colorado, just after dawn, meadows with flowers, purple mountains in the distance, & was listening to The Quiet Glen by Tommy Peoples. It was like this breakthrough, permission to fool around with the tune! It's still not a favorite, it's one of those that can really be butchered, so though I really like my version now, I'm sure there are variations out there that will improve it immensely. But fwiw, I'm still on the blindly optimistic side that all tunes deserve a fighting chance.
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Tired old tunes
I have a tired old set. It's not from a session. At a renaissance festival I play every summer, there are many instrumental groups scattered over the grounds. One day we started out playing Road to lisdoonvarna/swallowtail/morrison's a lovely set IMO. By the end of the day I ran into no less than 4 other groups and individuals (there may have been more) playing the exact set. We decided not to play it there anymore because it was too common for the venue and didn't set us apart in any obvious way. We only really take it out now when theres a jam going between a bunch of groups.
~Autumn
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by autumn
To Chef Paul
Chef,
What credentials does one need to have an opinion about a piece of music?
If you want to know more about me, and are serious about knowing if my opinion is worthy of your respect, you can do a google search on my name: "Eliot Jacobson" -- you will get about 10 pages of results. Almost all those links are me.
Take care,
Eliot
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Tired old tunes
Eliot
No disrespect intended, as a lover of cards, especially hold-em, and a forty something parent on my second marriage as well I'm sure we would have good craic if per chance we ever we to meet. To answer your question, my daughter has been opinionated about music since she was three years old, so certainly and obviously no-one needs "credentials" to have an opinion.
In your above post you did make mention of the fact that you were being "arrogant," perhaps "bold" would have been a better word. I'll check into some of links when I get a chance (it's very a busy day today for me).
I was/am curious about your reasons for concluding the tunes you mentioned were "bad". Musically speaking why are they bad? I'm not asking for 10 wesites worth of credentials, but rather, for a bit of clarification. If I said "Eliot is on my short list of truly bad people" I would certainly have my reasons. Right?
Morrison's in particular is one of my favorites. It's definitely not one of the core tunes played around here but I think propells right along, has a rugged (for lack of a better word) feel to it, and a nice little crescendo to conclude the B part.
Slan
P
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Tired old tunes
I still think I might have answered your question, HighandSun, when I suggested that association is what makes a good tune become tired. If you read through this thread you'll find that most people identify a negative association of some sort that turned a tune they originally liked into a “tired” one. The trick might be to try to avoid the negative association on tunes you like to prevent them from becoming “tired.” The discussion of what constitutes a "bad tune" is for a different thread I suppose.
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Why I don't like Morrison's
Hey Chef - here are my reasons --
Morrison's has a hugely open melody, nothing interesting, the first part hanging out on the 1 and 5 and doing nothing with them. The middle part is barely adequate, but the last part really falls flat. Three short phrases that each come to a complete stop before going on. And they are trite phrases at that. This gives no ability to make it a tune that has motion.
It is a good beginning tune because it gives the appearance of having something. But in truth the tune is an empty shell, without hope of ever becomming interesting.
My humble opinion
Eliot
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Eliot
Re: Tired old tunes (apples and oranges)
Everyone has favorite tunes, and tunes they don't like and refuse to play. Some of us just have one or two of the latter, and others have a longer list. When I compare the lists of "favorite tunes" and "tunes I won't play" of various friends of mine, I'll find the despised tune showing up on someone else's list as a favorite, and vise-versa. What does this tell us? One man's "terrorist" is another man's "freedom fighter."
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Tired old tunes
Eliot
Fair enough. The first part does hang out on the 1 and 5. I like the room you have for variations. But whatever.
You have very strong opinions sir ("...the tune is an empty shell without the hope of ever becoming interesting!") That you would claim your opinion to be "humble" in one post and "arrogant" in another is somewhat telling, for a card player don't you think?
I'm a newbie on this site just looking for a bit of craic, a few laughs and a friendly debate or two.
I was going to ask why playing "Concertina" on a concertina would make the tune itself any better and why it should make any difference, but I'm thinking this could go on all night when I'd much rather be out in the parking lot with my staff having a beer and a few laughs. Not being one for negativity or one who confuses heat with light I think I'll pass on those questions...for now.
P
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Chef Paul
Re: Tired old tunes
An old tune is not old to someone that has just heard it, new ones come and go and go and go!!!
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Mafidguit
Re: Tired old tunes
"An old tune is not old to someone that has just heard it, new ones come and go and go and go!!!"
Exactly right! I'm still building the foundation of my ITM repetoire and that includes the session "standards". What is new, fresh and exciting to me may well be one of those tired, over-played tunes to someone else. Since I know my local session mates fairly well, I don't have to worry too much about what I play. When visiting other sessions I'm a little more circumspect and cautious about what tunes I lead off with. And that's not any kind of a problem since I'm more interested in finding out what other folks are playing than in going out of town to play tunes that I already know.
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Bill Reeder
Re: Tired old tunes
As I said earlier, many of the younger or newer(not always as young) musicians are building up repertoires without knowing or learning many of the standards. I have seen some of them in a session playing excellent sets (which nobody else knows) yet they have to sit out the well known tunes. Of course, they ought to be encouraged to learn different tunes too(we should all do this) but there should be a balance between the old and the new.
John
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Johannes J
Re: Tired old tunes
Bill has it right. It's people who get tired of tunes, not the tunes that get tired.
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Tired old tunes
Interestingly, some of the "tired tunes" nominated here, I've never heard of. Although I don't get to a session every week, I attend a wide variety.
Once I was at a drunken session where the fiddler jokingly started up "Duelling Banjos". A booming middle-class English accent then emanated from a bearded wooly jumper folk-club type nearby "Oh, not that old chestnut!".
I'm afraid that has now become a catch phrase with certain friends who love winding up folk like this almost as much as they love a good tune, or even a bad one .
"Oh, not that old chestnut!"
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Bren
Re: Tired old tunes
I think that no matter what genre of music it is, if you hear the same old tunes or songs over and over again, you will grow weary of them. I remember always hearing the same old "classic rock" songs at college parties and functions like Van Morrison's Brown Eyed Girl, Don Mclean's American Pie, the Rolling Stones (I can't get no) Satisfaction....oh and I once swore I'd hang myself if we all had to sing along to the Piano Man again....After college, I couldn't listen to that stuff for years!!! Now when I hear these songs at weddings or in the grocery store, I just smile and remember the good old days of smelly dorm rooms, toga parties, and many good friends......
Ok, back to Irish music : ) I agree with Emily and Michael Gill. All tunes deserve a chance. It's about *who* plays the tune and *how* they play the tune that counts. I heard Connaughtman's Rambles played this weekend by top notch musicians in a lovely session after a couple jigs I hadn't heard before. CR sounded really great! If a "tired old tune" is in the right hands, it can really come back to life. Another good example by Tommy Peoples is his version of the Blarney Pilgrim that he likes to perform. Simply gorgeous! Emily, remember hearing Kevin and Jimmy play the Silver Spear on the Boston Harbor cruise? That totally rocked my world!
Joyce
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by JMH
Re: Tired old tunes
Yes! Yes yes! Brilliant.... it was Kevin, Jimmy, Cillian, Michelle Mulcahy (on fiddle, that night), Kathleen Coneely & who was on bouzouki? My god what a great session. Who am I leaving out?
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Tired old tunes
Hi Emily, was Kathleen's husband, Michael Shorrock playing bouzouki that night? Yes, it was an unforgettable session!
I just ordered John Wynne's CD for the second time! I sure I'll find my first copy as soon as I receive the second one : ) I also ordered the second Na Connery CD too.
Joyce
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by JMH
Re: Tired old tunes
Yeah, that's the CD I'm speaking of, the second Na Connerys with Road to Rio, I don't have With Every Breath *yet*, wait til I get settled at a new address before ordering any more CDs off the internet. In February my parents ordered Bothy 1975 & Michael Coleman double CD from Custy's for my birthday, & they still haven't arrived. I'm worried they'll arrive after I'm long gone!
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Tired old tunes
Emily, you may want to contact Custy's. I ordered a CD (Irish names I don't remember) with flute and box. It never came so I finally sent an email. I got an apology and they explained the CD was out of print temporarily.
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by JMH
Re: Tired old tunes
Yeah, that's what my parents said, one was out of print but the other thing was that they were re-organizing inventory, & to try back later. Ah well, Irish time *is* a wonderful thing!
PS I'll take your second copy of John Wynne if/when it surfaces!
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Tired old tunes
Ok Emily, I'm sure it will turn up somewhere, someday and when it does, it will have your name on it.....I figured if and when it does resurface in my "crack den" someone will want to have it : )
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by JMH
Re: Tired old tunes
Michael got it in one! I was going to use the same phrase about "tired old musicians" until I found he'd beaten me to it.
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by Bannerman
Re: Tired old tunes
I can't remember which of the many players who've had a hand in teaching me said it, but I've tried to keep it in mind ever since: "If you get bored with a tune, it's your own fault." They were, of course, talking about variations and finding that hidden note that re-illuminates the tune for you.
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Tired old tunes
My tired tune has to be the Kesh Jig. Not because I'm actually tired of playing it but rather because everytime I have to opportunity to go to a workshop and "learn" something... in at least one class, the tune to learn is "kesh". I've learned it on flute, whistle, harp, fiddle etc etc etc. All it needs is words, and I bet I'd learn it in a voice class. I'm actually thrilled when it comes up at a session as for sure I know I can play along with that one... I'd just like to learn something else!
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by ANNY