There is some level in a musician life, but do you remember when you became very good with your instrument ?
I explain : i play well ( that's not my opinion but of my musican's friend), i can play fast, slow, make some variations....but when i listen some masters, i have the feel that they are unattainable !
(ok, i have not the same old but, "what must i do "??)
I don't know how to progress and...become master...
Okay, okay....you can do a lot of joke about me, but i'm sure, it's a widespread feeling, isn't it ?
Of course it is, a widespread feeling, and one shared by some of the people no doubt that you're listening to and being intimidated by. Me, I certainly haven't hit there yet. The trouble with the level of "master" is that someone else gives it to you, and so long as you're satisfied with where you are, who cares what someone else calls you?
A friend of mine who is an extremely good musician, though, says that, when you feel the worst about your playing even when others keep telling you you sound great, it means that you're due for a breakthrough. Sometimes it'll take two years, maybe it'll be tomorrow, but it'll get there, so relax, she says.
I think that has to do with getting to a level where you can hear that you're not as good as you want to be, you can hear that better players sound different from you and you go out to change that.
The other thing to remember is that there are sooooo many ways of playing this stuff right. Don't make the mistake of thinking that one style is more right than another. Your music will always be your music and your style your style, regardless of whose playing you admire and wish to emulate. The closer you get to making the music you hear in your head come out of your instrument, the closer you are to "master". (There are many amateurs who are masters, mind.)
It's a great feeling of elation when you know that you're makng good progress. However, it's often a case of two steps forward and three back. Playing music is a constant learning process and "good" for me seems always to be just that one step away. Yes, I have much better days at playing fiddle/mandolin etc than I used to but still get "off days" and periods when I feel in a rut. However, the enjoyable moments help to compensate for this.
And there is ALWAYS room for improvement. Thing is to take that as a positive given and not see it as a negative.
There'll always be someone better which really a joy if you think about it and it gives us something to aim for.
"...due for a breakthrough...". LOL Zina, that means I've been due a breakthrough for ages! (there's always *someone* (usually the drunk in the corner) who says my playing's great, and my playing always sounds awful when I listen back to it.
Well, I suppose that depends on whether you really feel it necessary to become Star Of The Session (my god, what a concept -- SOTS! LOL!). Me, I try for "Won't Wreck the Session Just By Playing", so I probably can't talk too much to that.
Seriously though, re: "good enough", I suppose it comes down to always trying to figure out whether you'll be adding or taking away from the music by playing. If you'll add to the music in a positive way, then you're "good enough". If you'll take away from the positive drive towards good music, then you're probably not.
If, on the other hand, you ARE the session in that way I'm guessing we all know what I mean, then you're not really playing with other people anymore, they're playing along with you, and that doesn't sound much fun to me, though I suppose it might to someone else.
Seriously, my long-term goal is to get good enough that I can hold my own in a session (without feeling that I'm wrecking a session for them, or them feeling that I am doing so) of really good players. I don't want or need to rival their abilities or be admired by them, I just don't want to wreck the music they make and I want to add to it in a positive way, not a negative one. (That definition also includes trying to be a fun and good person to hang out with, because that's part and parcel of being a good session hang.)
Of course, that's tempered by knowing that everyone can't like me and not everyone is going to like my style of playing. Hey, sucks to be me, but we're all in the same boat.
Steve's got an interesting question here. In my experience, the players with too little humility are often the ones needing more practice before they'll be welcome, and the meek ones quietly playing checkers in the background are often as good as need be to sit in, but they themselves don't realize it.
"Audacity" chants a friend of mine, "the difference between us and the hot shots is audacity." But how do you know when you're "good enough" to wear the cloak of audacity, if even only for an evening? How do you know you won't end up the poser, the one they mumble about afterwards, behind your back, "There's a case of courage over talent," etc.?
Add in the variability of sessions, even the same session one week to the next, and there's no easy answer.
When I first started playing in sessions, I went for years playing quietly, sitting out lots of tunes, and listening to what the better players were doing. Eventually, people started offering unsolicited compliments, and I realized that some of them were actually listening to _me_. Over time, I gained the confidence to play louder, to lead into a set, to take more musical risks. Some people pick this sort of thing up right away, but for me it was a fairly slow process, and one that I enjoyed. I've never had the ambition to be the "star of the session." But there is a set of skills and knowledge that allows you to be the glue that holds a session together, and that seems a reasonable and worthwhile goal for me. The good news is that you don't have to be the most brilliant musician in the room to play that role. And when someone else is being the glue, you can relax into a more supportive role.
And backers, while adding important rhythmic life and tonal color, are most welcome (at sessions I've been to) when they know better than to reach beyond that supportive role.
More to the point of Mandolman's original query, I think the road to becoming a master musician is one of self-awareness, of knowing your strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else. And then playing with and enjoying your strengths while improving your weaknesses to the point where they aren't weaknesses anymore. It takes decades, if not a lifetime. But this is music, not mathmatics, and the goal should be expression, not perfection.
Will, maybe the thing is not to worry about what they might say behind your back. I often find myself leading sets in the company of much better fluters than myself, simply because they might be reluctant to lead, and because I like to play the sets I like(!) I'm sure that I'm the subject of the odd raised eyebrow, if nothing more, but what the hell - I don't want to lie on my deathbed fretting over the fact that I never did get to play all the tunes I wanted to!
In regard to your response to the original question, I couldn't agree more - we're all on a road with no real ending, so we should enjoy the journey while it lasts....
Mark
I agree on not worrying about the mutterers, Mark, I was more paraphrasing the concern Steve brought up. Yet you'd want the spastic out-of-tune guitar basher (just an example) to worry if you were muttering behind his back, eh? So maybe the question we've answered is more, how do you know when do to ignore the complaints and when to take them at least as a prompt to go home and woodshed a bit more before debuting at the local session again?
I think the question resolves itself after you've played long enough--most of us develop a sense of where we fit in the pecking order simply by playing out over the years. And by listening to the musical (rather than verbal) response to our efforts. Good music draws more good music to itself. If people tend not to join in around you, or there's a lack of enthusiasm when they do, or they drown you out, you might need to do more homework.
Will,
I have drawn great faith from your coments about sitting out tunes. I would consider myself as a total novice to session playing and I am only to happy to be able to join into any tune that I know.I am at the stage of wondering if I wil ever fit into any decent session.I know I can play but when it comes to performing or taking the lead I die.The GLUE as you describe it is where I want to be at this point and if I can reach that well who knows.I find great encouragement from your comments and the other main contributors to this site like Zina as inspirational.
Phil
Well, mandolman, it sounds like it's time for you to "kill the buddha" or "kill the buddhas." Nothing anybody else has done either technically or musically can make you into a master. Yes, you can learn alot from the masters and you can become very good in this way. But if you want to become a Master yourself, you must break the mold of your preconceived notions. You must go it alone. Be cautious about what anybody says about being a Master (including what i am saying) for it may divert your attention from what you have to do or from what you are already.
I don't think there is that much of a difference between being really good and being a master, but whatever that difference is, it makes all the difference in the world.
Phil, I'm always glad to pass along encouragement, as it was passed to me back in the day. Sometimes I feel like the poster boy for that Demotivator image of the shipwreck, with the catption, "It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others." (http://www.despair.com/indem.html)
Seriously, I think it takes a while to grow into a session 'leader' role, and that process never ends. I've got a long way to go myself...I still trainwreck on tunes, I still draw blanks instead of coming up with the perfect segue into the next tune, I still forget which string I'm on and suddenly end up a fifth below everyone else.... So you just keep playing, going back to the session every week, giving what you can to it.
Yep, I've long thought that any amateur musician should have the 'Incompetence' poster in their practice room. The caption reads: "When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do."
Sigh.
but when i see someone, i have the feel that they only play in session. Never at home ? Of Course, a session is better as together than a performance...LOL
I think that be virtuoso it's a gift/talent, ( i'm afraid, i'll never be virtuoso, just for joking but become master it can be for everyone who want to progress everyday.
Do you really beleive that Will? That there's no end to what you can't do (Somehow, I don't think you do.) I have found that with plugging away, and setting my goals just a bit higher each time, that I have surpassed all of my expectations. And continue to do so. Yeah I've got a loooong road ahead of me, but I will never give into despair, or I would have quit a long time ago.
And Michael's right, don't think about it so much. Keep on keeping on....
Andee, nope, it's more of a joke. But there does come a point in your playing where all the extra practice in the world isn't gonna make you a better player. It's more a mental/attitude adjustment that's needed at that point, and for me at least, it's important to have a sense of acceptance (the demotivators would call it resignation and humility. I play better when I accept the music as a gift, me it's humble servant.
Chris Smith and I have both talked about coming to the music through the zen practice of bowing (er, the head-lowering thing, not what you do with a stick and horsehair). And I agree with his comment above as well--when you can play what you hear in your head, with no technical limitations, then you are free. Maybe it's just semantics, but to me there's a difference between 'mastery' and freedom, and I know which I'd rather strive for.
ha ha ha. But if you hear the Buddha *playing* the road to lisdoonvarna, you might as well join in. you can worry about that killing business after the session's over...
There's a guy here in town who owns a bar. His laptop crashed once too many times, and he took it outside, grabbed his revolver, shot it four times, then hung it on the wall on a plaque like a trophy head. He was arrested for public endangerment or something, but it was funny anyway. *grin*
And the amateur become Master
And the amateur become Master
There is some level in a musician life, but do you remember when you became very good with your instrument ?
I explain : i play well ( that's not my opinion but of my musican's friend), i can play fast, slow, make some variations....but when i listen some masters, i have the feel that they are unattainable !
(ok, i have not the same old but, "what must i do "??)
I don't know how to progress and...become master...
Okay, okay....you can do a lot of joke about me, but i'm sure, it's a widespread feeling, isn't it ?
# Posted on March 30th 2004 by Mandolman
Re: And the amateur become Master
Of course it is, a widespread feeling, and one shared by some of the people no doubt that you're listening to and being intimidated by. Me, I certainly haven't hit there yet. The trouble with the level of "master" is that someone else gives it to you, and so long as you're satisfied with where you are, who cares what someone else calls you?
A friend of mine who is an extremely good musician, though, says that, when you feel the worst about your playing even when others keep telling you you sound great, it means that you're due for a breakthrough. Sometimes it'll take two years, maybe it'll be tomorrow, but it'll get there, so relax, she says.
I think that has to do with getting to a level where you can hear that you're not as good as you want to be, you can hear that better players sound different from you and you go out to change that.
The other thing to remember is that there are sooooo many ways of playing this stuff right. Don't make the mistake of thinking that one style is more right than another. Your music will always be your music and your style your style, regardless of whose playing you admire and wish to emulate. The closer you get to making the music you hear in your head come out of your instrument, the closer you are to "master". (There are many amateurs who are masters, mind.)
Have fun getting there!
Zina
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: And the amateur become Master
It's a great feeling of elation when you know that you're makng good progress. However, it's often a case of two steps forward and three back. Playing music is a constant learning process and "good" for me seems always to be just that one step away. Yes, I have much better days at playing fiddle/mandolin etc than I used to but still get "off days" and periods when I feel in a rut. However, the enjoyable moments help to compensate for this.
John
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Johannes J
Re: And the amateur become Master
And there is ALWAYS room for improvement. Thing is to take that as a positive given and not see it as a negative.
There'll always be someone better which really a joy if you think about it and it gives us something to aim for.
Joe
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: And the amateur become Master
there is always room for improvement but what do they call you when you are better than the "masters"? virtuoso?
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Mike.Vass
Re: And the amateur become Master
"...due for a breakthrough...". LOL Zina, that means I've been due a breakthrough for ages! (there's always *someone* (usually the drunk in the corner) who says my playing's great, and my playing always sounds awful when I listen back to it.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by rog
Re: And the amateur become Master
dominoe's?
i normally drink myself to a standstill
oh my god!!! i am the drunk in the corner!!!
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by NickPhelan
Re: And the amateur become Master
Well, I suppose that depends on whether you really feel it necessary to become Star Of The Session (my god, what a concept -- SOTS! LOL!). Me, I try for "Won't Wreck the Session Just By Playing", so I probably can't talk too much to that.
Seriously though, re: "good enough", I suppose it comes down to always trying to figure out whether you'll be adding or taking away from the music by playing. If you'll add to the music in a positive way, then you're "good enough". If you'll take away from the positive drive towards good music, then you're probably not.
If, on the other hand, you ARE the session in that way I'm guessing we all know what I mean, then you're not really playing with other people anymore, they're playing along with you, and that doesn't sound much fun to me, though I suppose it might to someone else.
Seriously, my long-term goal is to get good enough that I can hold my own in a session (without feeling that I'm wrecking a session for them, or them feeling that I am doing so) of really good players. I don't want or need to rival their abilities or be admired by them, I just don't want to wreck the music they make and I want to add to it in a positive way, not a negative one. (That definition also includes trying to be a fun and good person to hang out with, because that's part and parcel of being a good session hang.)
Of course, that's tempered by knowing that everyone can't like me and not everyone is going to like my style of playing. Hey, sucks to be me, but we're all in the same boat.
I must get back to work now...*moan whinge groan*
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: And the amateur become Master
Steve's got an interesting question here. In my experience, the players with too little humility are often the ones needing more practice before they'll be welcome, and the meek ones quietly playing checkers in the background are often as good as need be to sit in, but they themselves don't realize it.
"Audacity" chants a friend of mine, "the difference between us and the hot shots is audacity." But how do you know when you're "good enough" to wear the cloak of audacity, if even only for an evening? How do you know you won't end up the poser, the one they mumble about afterwards, behind your back, "There's a case of courage over talent," etc.?
Add in the variability of sessions, even the same session one week to the next, and there's no easy answer.
When I first started playing in sessions, I went for years playing quietly, sitting out lots of tunes, and listening to what the better players were doing. Eventually, people started offering unsolicited compliments, and I realized that some of them were actually listening to _me_. Over time, I gained the confidence to play louder, to lead into a set, to take more musical risks. Some people pick this sort of thing up right away, but for me it was a fairly slow process, and one that I enjoyed. I've never had the ambition to be the "star of the session." But there is a set of skills and knowledge that allows you to be the glue that holds a session together, and that seems a reasonable and worthwhile goal for me. The good news is that you don't have to be the most brilliant musician in the room to play that role. And when someone else is being the glue, you can relax into a more supportive role.
And backers, while adding important rhythmic life and tonal color, are most welcome (at sessions I've been to) when they know better than to reach beyond that supportive role.
More to the point of Mandolman's original query, I think the road to becoming a master musician is one of self-awareness, of knowing your strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else. And then playing with and enjoying your strengths while improving your weaknesses to the point where they aren't weaknesses anymore. It takes decades, if not a lifetime. But this is music, not mathmatics, and the goal should be expression, not perfection.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Will CPT
Re: And the amateur become Master
Will, maybe the thing is not to worry about what they might say behind your back. I often find myself leading sets in the company of much better fluters than myself, simply because they might be reluctant to lead, and because I like to play the sets I like(!) I'm sure that I'm the subject of the odd raised eyebrow, if nothing more, but what the hell - I don't want to lie on my deathbed fretting over the fact that I never did get to play all the tunes I wanted to!
In regard to your response to the original question, I couldn't agree more - we're all on a road with no real ending, so we should enjoy the journey while it lasts....
Mark
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Ottery
Re: And the amateur become Master
"what do they call you when you are better than the "masters"? virtuoso?"
"Free."
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by coyotebanjo
Re: And the amateur become Master
Funny, I thought that would have been "expensive". *grin*
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: And the amateur become Master
I agree on not worrying about the mutterers, Mark, I was more paraphrasing the concern Steve brought up. Yet you'd want the spastic out-of-tune guitar basher (just an example) to worry if you were muttering behind his back, eh? So maybe the question we've answered is more, how do you know when do to ignore the complaints and when to take them at least as a prompt to go home and woodshed a bit more before debuting at the local session again?
I think the question resolves itself after you've played long enough--most of us develop a sense of where we fit in the pecking order simply by playing out over the years. And by listening to the musical (rather than verbal) response to our efforts. Good music draws more good music to itself. If people tend not to join in around you, or there's a lack of enthusiasm when they do, or they drown you out, you might need to do more homework.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Will CPT
Re: And the amateur become Master
I am at work -- I work in front of the &#%@! computer...
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: And the amateur become Master
i dont understand the "free" comment could someone elaborate?
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Mike.Vass
Re: And the amateur become Master
Will,
I have drawn great faith from your coments about sitting out tunes. I would consider myself as a total novice to session playing and I am only to happy to be able to join into any tune that I know.I am at the stage of wondering if I wil ever fit into any decent session.I know I can play but when it comes to performing or taking the lead I die.The GLUE as you describe it is where I want to be at this point and if I can reach that well who knows.I find great encouragement from your comments and the other main contributors to this site like Zina as inspirational.
Phil
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Dphil
Re: And the amateur become Master
Well, mandolman, it sounds like it's time for you to "kill the buddha" or "kill the buddhas." Nothing anybody else has done either technically or musically can make you into a master. Yes, you can learn alot from the masters and you can become very good in this way. But if you want to become a Master yourself, you must break the mold of your preconceived notions. You must go it alone. Be cautious about what anybody says about being a Master (including what i am saying) for it may divert your attention from what you have to do or from what you are already.
I don't think there is that much of a difference between being really good and being a master, but whatever that difference is, it makes all the difference in the world.
So go for it already my good man! And good luck!
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Brendan
Re: And the amateur become Master
will says: "it takes expression, not perfection"
amen to that, btw...
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Brendan
Re: And the amateur become Master
I wish my wife thought that ...
Martin
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Conway
Re: And the amateur become Master
Just quit thinking about it
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: And the amateur become Master
Phil, I'm always glad to pass along encouragement, as it was passed to me back in the day. Sometimes I feel like the poster boy for that Demotivator image of the shipwreck, with the catption, "It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others." (http://www.despair.com/indem.html)
Seriously, I think it takes a while to grow into a session 'leader' role, and that process never ends. I've got a long way to go myself...I still trainwreck on tunes, I still draw blanks instead of coming up with the perfect segue into the next tune, I still forget which string I'm on and suddenly end up a fifth below everyone else.... So you just keep playing, going back to the session every week, giving what you can to it.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Will CPT
Re: And the amateur become Master
http://www.despair.com/indem.html
Not to change the subject, Will, but that has to be the funniest thing I have read in many moons. I could not stop laughing! Thanks for sharing.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Sean Logan
Re: And the amateur become Master
Yep, I've long thought that any amateur musician should have the 'Incompetence' poster in their practice room. The caption reads: "When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do."
Sigh.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Will CPT
Re: And the amateur become Master
"My precious !! Come master, come master "
thanks.
but when i see someone, i have the feel that they only play in session. Never at home ? Of Course, a session is better as together than a performance...LOL
I think that be virtuoso it's a gift/talent, ( i'm afraid, i'll never be virtuoso, just for joking
but become master it can be for everyone who want to progress everyday.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Mandolman
Re: And the amateur become Master
Do you really beleive that Will? That there's no end to what you can't do (Somehow, I don't think you do.) I have found that with plugging away, and setting my goals just a bit higher each time, that I have surpassed all of my expectations. And continue to do so. Yeah I've got a loooong road ahead of me, but I will never give into despair, or I would have quit a long time ago.
And Michael's right, don't think about it so much. Keep on keeping on....
Mandolman are you formerly known as Pitnekit?
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Andee
Re: And the amateur become Master
You are master of the instrument (perhaps) at some (perhaps indefinable) point, when you can pick it up and play whatever you want.
But you are master of your music when you just enjoy playing it.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: And the amateur become Master
Sorry Andee, just as known as Binioubraz and Gollum today
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Mandolman
Re: And the amateur become Master
I'm sorry Madolman. Must have been the "accent"; I was confusing you with someone else.
# Posted on March 31st 2004 by Andee
Re: And the amateur become Master
Andee, nope, it's more of a joke. But there does come a point in your playing where all the extra practice in the world isn't gonna make you a better player. It's more a mental/attitude adjustment that's needed at that point, and for me at least, it's important to have a sense of acceptance (the demotivators would call it resignation
and humility. I play better when I accept the music as a gift, me it's humble servant.
Chris Smith and I have both talked about coming to the music through the zen practice of bowing (er, the head-lowering thing, not what you do with a stick and horsehair). And I agree with his comment above as well--when you can play what you hear in your head, with no technical limitations, then you are free. Maybe it's just semantics, but to me there's a difference between 'mastery' and freedom, and I know which I'd rather strive for.
# Posted on April 1st 2004 by Will CPT
Re: And the amateur become Master
ha ha ha. But if you hear the Buddha *playing* the road to lisdoonvarna, you might as well join in. you can worry about that killing business after the session's over...
# Posted on April 2nd 2004 by Brendan
Re: And the amateur become Master
There's a guy here in town who owns a bar. His laptop crashed once too many times, and he took it outside, grabbed his revolver, shot it four times, then hung it on the wall on a plaque like a trophy head. He was arrested for public endangerment or something, but it was funny anyway. *grin*
# Posted on April 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee