how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
a friend of mine, plays fiddle....great! and rock/blues guitar....fine! but plays rock/blues guitar when we are playing trad....sh#te!
i guess he cannot hear that the chords he is playing are not in key with the tunes, i e he might start on the right first chord but his three chord trick is no magic.... i got so pissed off and distracted that i had to stop tunes in the middle or lost the run of them because his backing was driving me nuts. am i on crazy pills??
i know he has to be taken aside and the problem explained but he is usually pissed too so i know he will take it peronally, (it is personal afterall) so it hasnt happened, our session fell apart when the best musicians took flight (i dont mean me!) and i cant be bothered taking responsiblity. but we are all friends and those of the gang i havent explained it to keep trying to get the session back together and the other half of us make excuses......AHHH guitarists why do you do this to us you should know better!
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
As an aside, I'm always amazed and disappointed at how distracted I get when backed by a guitarist who doesn't know how to play the music. Makes me crazy that I'm still so poor a player that I can't keep it together under that kind of pressure, dammit. I'll lose tunes that I would have sworn I know backwards and forwards and sideways...so, no, I don't think you're anymore crazy than I am...
Anyway, back on the subject -- geez, rough place to sit in, mackers. Is he the sort who would ever approach *you* as to why the session has fallen apart?
Hmmm. Could you maybe see if he might be interested in getting together to "work up a few sets for the experience like for gigging next St. Pat's"? And maybe then you could talk about traditional backing styles of backing? Maybe give him a few recordings of stellar backers to study for the experiment? Maybe you could give him a copy of, say, The Ring Sessions with James Kelly and Zan MacLeod and tell him that you want to learn the Lads of Laois set (the first track) using those EXACT chords (I know, I know, but I mean as a kind of object lesson) and could he study what MacLeod is doing? (Of course there's lots of other recordings to give him, but I think that particular recording has very clear backing tracks is why I suggested it...)
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Yes he should know better but he doesn't so some one will have to tell him.
Have you tried playing until he joins in and then stopping? If he doesnt get that message then there's no hope for him.
Last resort wire cutters.
PP
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Actually, the wire cutters aren't a bad idea. It's amazing the effect it has to simply leave a pair in plain view on the table in the middle of the session....
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Try an advanced session at a festival, joined all night by a lady, I would guess her at about 50, strumming her guitar. A nice steel string guitar strummed half-tempo with her thumb and very "I am a beginner who just learned to play kubayah!" way. And she knew very few chords. But she was a quick key-finder. Then through a few jigs in Dmajor, she would strum D and A all the way. And she had a great big pleased face on. I tried yelling chords to her, and she smiled back at me and kept strumming D.
I know sessions are for all, but I think it would be an idea with the wire-cutters... The guitar-labotomy!
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
The old feedback model: start with some positive feedback, then tell him how his less positive behaviour makes you feel:
"You know, your fiddle playing is really great - I'd love to hear more of it in our sessions. And your rock guitar is truly awesome. Don't you think, though, that you're a better fiddler than a guitar player in sessions? I have to admit I struggle a bit to keep the tune when you do some of those innovative things with the accompaniment - it's probably just that I'm not as experienced a player on the whistle/flute/fiddle/machete/whatever. It'd be easier for me if you could do some simpler backing like this -- (insert the chords/rythm you really want him to do.)
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Me being a youngling maybe this tactic wont work in the reel world. Anyway i would say honesty is always the best policy, and explain to the guy that he needs to do more listening - to you guys, to other decent backers, to cds etc. Just TEll him that his style doesn't really fit the playing and if hes keen (which i guess he is and folding the session seems terrible rather than just talking things through with the poor guy) he will want to learn, maybe send him to some tune learning sessions where he can pick up pointers. If hes going to take it the wrong way and be highly offended that his "amazing" playing isn't what your looking for then maybe he should just play the fiddle, but i hope that isn't the case. if he finds out you've folded the session just because of his poor playing then surely he'll be far more offended and upset than if you help him pull his trad sox up.!!!???
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
I second the idea of talking to him but focusing on how his playing makes you feel. This is a common tactic in mediation. Rather than saying, "Your playing is wrong" you can say "The style you're playing puts us off when we're playing this kind of music; we'd have an easier time if you tried something more like what's on 'xyz' recording".
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Forget mediation, its a much more serious matter. This is the nicest thing I can think of at the moment.
Stop mid-reel and say this into his/her ear: " Do you know what it is? YouŽll have me killed yet with that guitar. IŽve been playing now 23 year and sure if it isnŽt the drink thatŽll do me in itŽs that guitar. Now donŽt get me wrong I donŽt mind a guitar played sweetly betimes but do you know what it is youŽll have me dead and buried before the end of the week I swear begod and the curse o jaysus on you if you do. IŽve said it once and IŽll say it again youŽll have me killed with that guitar!"
The poor guitar player will turn white as a sheet and leave. Lets say in about a years time the individual will return quietly and have developed an accompanying style with grace, subtlety and have a bank of tunes which they can transpose into any key at the drop of a hat. A tough approach but it will be worth it! The egotistical guitarist sometimes needs a tough apprenticeship. (in my experience)
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
I used to sit near a guitar player and kick the shins off him when he played the wrong chords (usually when his mind was somewhere else). I believe this is called aversion therapy. It works for rats, why not guitarists?
I'm still on friendly terms with him, believe it or not.
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Be nice - invite the gitar player for a jam - just you 2 - work thru some tunes together - show him/her what you require for accompaniment (if you know) - maybe do some homework and prepare chord charts - e.g tunes with the chords above the melody line etc. Also maybe he/she might be able to provide some help so you vcan play with gitar accompaniment, without getting so upset!
Personally, when I don't know a tune or unsure the 3 chord trick sort of works - its a good starting point to work out the gitar accompaniment.
Mel
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
The best way for a backer to learn backing is to learn to play the tunes themselves, ideally on the instrument of their choice.
If some of the stretchs & positions in EADGBE or DADGAD seem a bit much, try the mandolin.
For the rhythms watch/listen to dancers (particularly Clare style battering) or listen to Scots pipe band drummers. It's a real education.
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
I think a big problem is that some people take up trad guitar (or bodhran, at that) because they think they dont have to put in as much time AT HOME crafting the skill.
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
You could ask your guitar player if his/her grandfather played piano on Michael Coleman's recordings. When he/she asks you what you're talking about, loan them the CDs and say "listen carefully - it sounds just like you!"
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Yup, it's impossible to say something without coming off sounding like a jerk. I know a couple of folks who are decent guitar players but quite awful at their melody instruments. Luckily one doesn't come around too often. I've asked him in the past if he ever practices? He'll start *many* tunes that he can barely play or they are just not recognizable. I've said to him in a polite manner, "ooooh I think that needs a little work".... He thinks he is really good, so what do you do? Unfortunately we can't always choose our session mates...
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Get someone else to do it!
There may be someone else out there who is not a personal friend of this guitarist but as long as the guitarist respects this person, he'll hopefully listen and take it all in.
Or maybe a visitor to your session could be primed to do the deed for you. Even invite a 'plant' to do it. I would offer but I'm a long way away in West Aus!.
Good luck
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
The session at the Star was invaded by aliens carrying stun-ray apparatus (pa). The guitar "player" sounded like he was accompanying the Beatles in 1964 as did his haircut. I sat next to him and stared at his fingers everytime he cocked-up. He was very uncomfortable.
Wait until the tune has finished, then tell them you are going to show them the right chords to play and quickly reel off some chords with lots of 7ths and minors. If they can keep up with that they can't be bad - most hack players are stuck if they cannot use a capo.
I love it when the capo comes out - it means I can change alternate tunes from F maj to A maj and really piss them off.
I have lost count of the number of hack accompanists who have threatened to break my legs for criticising their lack of chordal prowess.
how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
a friend of mine, plays fiddle....great! and rock/blues guitar....fine! but plays rock/blues guitar when we are playing trad....sh#te!
i guess he cannot hear that the chords he is playing are not in key with the tunes, i e he might start on the right first chord but his three chord trick is no magic.... i got so pissed off and distracted that i had to stop tunes in the middle or lost the run of them because his backing was driving me nuts. am i on crazy pills??
i know he has to be taken aside and the problem explained but he is usually pissed too so i know he will take it peronally, (it is personal afterall) so it hasnt happened, our session fell apart when the best musicians took flight (i dont mean me!) and i cant be bothered taking responsiblity. but we are all friends and those of the gang i havent explained it to keep trying to get the session back together and the other half of us make excuses......AHHH guitarists why do you do this to us you should know better!
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by mackers
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
As an aside, I'm always amazed and disappointed at how distracted I get when backed by a guitarist who doesn't know how to play the music. Makes me crazy that I'm still so poor a player that I can't keep it together under that kind of pressure, dammit. I'll lose tunes that I would have sworn I know backwards and forwards and sideways...so, no, I don't think you're anymore crazy than I am...
Anyway, back on the subject -- geez, rough place to sit in, mackers. Is he the sort who would ever approach *you* as to why the session has fallen apart?
Hmmm. Could you maybe see if he might be interested in getting together to "work up a few sets for the experience like for gigging next St. Pat's"? And maybe then you could talk about traditional backing styles of backing? Maybe give him a few recordings of stellar backers to study for the experiment? Maybe you could give him a copy of, say, The Ring Sessions with James Kelly and Zan MacLeod and tell him that you want to learn the Lads of Laois set (the first track) using those EXACT chords (I know, I know, but I mean as a kind of object lesson) and could he study what MacLeod is doing? (Of course there's lots of other recordings to give him, but I think that particular recording has very clear backing tracks is why I suggested it...)
Hmmm. Tough place, mackers...good luck!
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Yes he should know better but he doesn't so some one will have to tell him.
Have you tried playing until he joins in and then stopping? If he doesnt get that message then there's no hope for him.
Last resort wire cutters.
PP
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Actually, the wire cutters aren't a bad idea. It's amazing the effect it has to simply leave a pair in plain view on the table in the middle of the session....
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Try an advanced session at a festival, joined all night by a lady, I would guess her at about 50, strumming her guitar. A nice steel string guitar strummed half-tempo with her thumb and very "I am a beginner who just learned to play kubayah!" way. And she knew very few chords. But she was a quick key-finder. Then through a few jigs in Dmajor, she would strum D and A all the way. And she had a great big pleased face on. I tried yelling chords to her, and she smiled back at me and kept strumming D.
I know sessions are for all, but I think it would be an idea with the wire-cutters... The guitar-labotomy!
Lars.
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by Larshansen
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
The old feedback model: start with some positive feedback, then tell him how his less positive behaviour makes you feel:
"You know, your fiddle playing is really great - I'd love to hear more of it in our sessions. And your rock guitar is truly awesome. Don't you think, though, that you're a better fiddler than a guitar player in sessions? I have to admit I struggle a bit to keep the tune when you do some of those innovative things with the accompaniment - it's probably just that I'm not as experienced a player on the whistle/flute/fiddle/machete/whatever. It'd be easier for me if you could do some simpler backing like this -- (insert the chords/rythm you really want him to do.)
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by grego
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Me being a youngling maybe this tactic wont work in the reel world. Anyway i would say honesty is always the best policy, and explain to the guy that he needs to do more listening - to you guys, to other decent backers, to cds etc. Just TEll him that his style doesn't really fit the playing and if hes keen (which i guess he is and folding the session seems terrible rather than just talking things through with the poor guy) he will want to learn, maybe send him to some tune learning sessions where he can pick up pointers. If hes going to take it the wrong way and be highly offended that his "amazing" playing isn't what your looking for then maybe he should just play the fiddle, but i hope that isn't the case. if he finds out you've folded the session just because of his poor playing then surely he'll be far more offended and upset than if you help him pull his trad sox up.!!!???
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by Mike.Vass
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
send him a link to this thread
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by Test
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
I second the idea of talking to him but focusing on how his playing makes you feel. This is a common tactic in mediation. Rather than saying, "Your playing is wrong" you can say "The style you're playing puts us off when we're playing this kind of music; we'd have an easier time if you tried something more like what's on 'xyz' recording".
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by jerball
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Forget mediation, its a much more serious matter. This is the nicest thing I can think of at the moment.
Stop mid-reel and say this into his/her ear: " Do you know what it is? YouŽll have me killed yet with that guitar. IŽve been playing now 23 year and sure if it isnŽt the drink thatŽll do me in itŽs that guitar. Now donŽt get me wrong I donŽt mind a guitar played sweetly betimes but do you know what it is youŽll have me dead and buried before the end of the week I swear begod and the curse o jaysus on you if you do. IŽve said it once and IŽll say it again youŽll have me killed with that guitar!"
The poor guitar player will turn white as a sheet and leave. Lets say in about a years time the individual will return quietly and have developed an accompanying style with grace, subtlety and have a bank of tunes which they can transpose into any key at the drop of a hat. A tough approach but it will be worth it! The egotistical guitarist sometimes needs a tough apprenticeship. (in my experience)
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by alanquinn
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
You sent me home with a good belly laugh Alan. You're Simon Cowell's Irish cousin, aren't you?
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by grego
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
I used to sit near a guitar player and kick the shins off him when he played the wrong chords (usually when his mind was somewhere else). I believe this is called aversion therapy. It works for rats, why not guitarists?
I'm still on friendly terms with him, believe it or not.
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by milesnagopaleen
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Be nice - invite the gitar player for a jam - just you 2 - work thru some tunes together - show him/her what you require for accompaniment (if you know) - maybe do some homework and prepare chord charts - e.g tunes with the chords above the melody line etc. Also maybe he/she might be able to provide some help so you vcan play with gitar accompaniment, without getting so upset!
Personally, when I don't know a tune or unsure the 3 chord trick sort of works - its a good starting point to work out the gitar accompaniment.
Mel
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by Melissa OConnell
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
The best way for a backer to learn backing is to learn to play the tunes themselves, ideally on the instrument of their choice.
If some of the stretchs & positions in EADGBE or DADGAD seem a bit much, try the mandolin.
For the rhythms watch/listen to dancers (particularly Clare style battering) or listen to Scots pipe band drummers. It's a real education.
Simon.
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by Leftheris
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
I think a big problem is that some people take up trad guitar (or bodhran, at that) because they think they dont have to put in as much time AT HOME crafting the skill.
# Posted on March 24th 2004 by downey
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
just tell him he's sh*te. If he's a sound mate he'll be grateful of the advice!
at least he's playing/interested. cant knock a man down for that.
# Posted on March 25th 2004 by LaraKerr
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
You could ask your guitar player if his/her grandfather played piano on Michael Coleman's recordings. When he/she asks you what you're talking about, loan them the CDs and say "listen carefully - it sounds just like you!"
# Posted on March 25th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
It's impossible.
# Posted on March 25th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Yup, it's impossible to say something without coming off sounding like a jerk. I know a couple of folks who are decent guitar players but quite awful at their melody instruments. Luckily one doesn't come around too often. I've asked him in the past if he ever practices? He'll start *many* tunes that he can barely play or they are just not recognizable. I've said to him in a polite manner, "ooooh I think that needs a little work".... He thinks he is really good, so what do you do? Unfortunately we can't always choose our session mates...
Joyce
# Posted on March 25th 2004 by JMH
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
Get someone else to do it!
There may be someone else out there who is not a personal friend of this guitarist but as long as the guitarist respects this person, he'll hopefully listen and take it all in.
Or maybe a visitor to your session could be primed to do the deed for you. Even invite a 'plant' to do it. I would offer but I'm a long way away in West Aus!.
Good luck
# Posted on March 25th 2004 by Donough
Re: how to tell someone nicely their guitar playing is awful?
The session at the Star was invaded by aliens carrying stun-ray apparatus (pa). The guitar "player" sounded like he was accompanying the Beatles in 1964 as did his haircut. I sat next to him and stared at his fingers everytime he cocked-up. He was very uncomfortable.
Wait until the tune has finished, then tell them you are going to show them the right chords to play and quickly reel off some chords with lots of 7ths and minors. If they can keep up with that they can't be bad - most hack players are stuck if they cannot use a capo.
I love it when the capo comes out - it means I can change alternate tunes from F maj to A maj and really piss them off.
I have lost count of the number of hack accompanists who have threatened to break my legs for criticising their lack of chordal prowess.
# Posted on March 25th 2004 by geoffwright