Do any of you trad fiddle players out there have any tips on how to do cuts? You know, when you play the same note 3 times really fast? I can't seem to get it! Believe me, I HAVE been trying.
Is there certin way to move the wrist or something like that?
That sounds more like a triplet (sometimes referred to as a treble bow) to me, Angela. A "cut" is a technique where the note is fingered , played for a certain time and there's a "pull off" or "flick" of the finger which leaves you with a lower note sounding perhaps on an open string or with another finger in a lower position.
I think the trick of playing triplets is not to attempt three successive notes as such. It's a kind of rocky, shaky motion with the wrist which I can do but not describe properly here. I tried for ages too but it eventually came to me with no rhyme or reason.
No doubt, one of the better fiddlers will explain it all in more detail quite soon.
It sounds like what your after is a triplet AKA treble bow. It's all in the bowing, it's a "down up down" pattern. Here's a good excercise Play the open E on a Downstroke than the A on an upstroke then comes the triplet down up down on the A string. so in ABC it would be
veuA (3vAuAvA the v's are downstrokes & the u's are upstrokes
'Cut' is the term usually reserved for a left-hand technique of thwacking the string with a finger higher than the note being held, to articulate it.
So if it's the quick triplet with the bow you're looking for advice on, try searching the discussion threads for "bowed triplet." There's a lot of info here already.
Here's a quick synposis:
1. Most people play bowed triplets down-up-down. Some people do them up-down-up, and some can go either way.
2. Contrary to how percussive it can sound, the triplet comes from a very light, relaxed, tiny hiccup of the one or two fingers (index, mostly) controlling the bow. Yes, it takes a relaxed wrist, but the key to getting the quickness of the three notes is in reducing the motion to a light flick of the index finger. In other words, the wrist and forearm really aren't involved--that's too big a motion to get it light and tight.
3. In the beginning, it helps to play a definite, deliberate set-up bow stroke before the triplet. If you're doing down-up-down triplets, start with a longer than average up bow. Let the bow and fingers dangle loosely from your wrist. In the nanosecond before the first down stroke, the middle joint of your index finger lightens up, so it looks and feels like the triplet begins with a slight upward motion of that index finger. You can approximate this motion by putting your hand face down on a table top, just the heel of your hand and the fingertips touching the table. Now lift your index tip just a hair off the table, and then tap it down twice, as quick as you can. The rest of the hand stays relaxed and motionless. That's all the movement you need to get a bowed triplet.
4. Expect this to take years of refining to get it to sound they way you want, consistently.
5. Strive to play all three notes clean and distinct. You can very the amount of 'tkkch' you get by leaning or easing off the bow--pressing the hair into the string, or not. That's up to you, and most fiddlers vary it depending on their mood and what the tune seems to want. Eventually, you'll want to be able to finger two or three separate notes within a triplet--a common ornament in Irish trad music.
6. Find a role model. It helps a *huge amount* to see and hear what's happening, in person, from someone whose triplets are brilliant. Even after 15 years of playing triplets, I made a quantum leap after seeing a top-tier player's bow hand close up at a session. (And yet, as Zina--and Sean Smyth--will tell you, I can still fumble a triplet, particularly if it's before 10 in the morning)
7. Don't give up. It takes time and repetition. And it's worth it in the long run. I woodshedded for years on triplets with one little exercise: |: Bd (3ddd Bd (3ddd :| where the Bd is played on an up bow, and the triplet (3ddd is played down-up-down. I think it helps to put the triplet into context like this. Another good one, to gain control of the triplet on an open string (which tends to feel a bit bouncier) is - |: FA (3AAA BA (3AAA :| played down on F, up on A, d-u-d on the triplet, and slur from the down bow ending the triplet into a continued down bow on the next B, then up on A, d-u-d on the triplet, repeat.
"The Silver Spear" is a good tune to apply the FA(3AAA excercise Will wrote about. Also the Maids of Mt Cisco with it's EA(3AAA bits. In the begining you should try to keep them clean with as litle "crunch" as possible, remember - tone before speed. You shouldn't use more than about a half inch to an inch of bow in either direction on the triplet.
David, I used to think triplets required a hard contraction in my forearm, and I could certainly feel it in my bicep as well. But now the bicep is all but out of the picture, and the forearm as well. I'm sure there's still some micro-firing of the muscles there, and maybe even enough to feel (more so on hard, crunchy triplets, from leaning on the bow, and also more on the G and D strings than on the A and E strings, because the upper arm comes more into play there). But my triplets got much cleaner and crisper--and more consistent--when I reduced everything to a nearly imperceptible jiggle of the index finger.
That's not to say it's the only or the 'correct' way to throw triplets. Sean Smyth teaches them coming with the bow off the string between the lead-in up bow and the first down bow of the triplet (an unecessary complication, in my eyes, and extraneous movement to boot, but it certainly works for Mr. Smyth). Tommy Peoples does his famous right hand finger flick against the stick to get extra crunch--few people can manage that with his speed and control. Mairead Mhaonaigh uses more wrist and even forearm.
But I've seen lots of really good fiddlers do them nice and crisp and clean (and crunchy when they want that) with nothing more than the index finger, and half an inch or *less* (sometimes much less) of the hair. Eileen Ivers (no matter whether you like her music, her triplets are amazing--always clean, always perfectly timed), Liz Carroll, Kevin Burke, Cait Reed, Brian Conway, Ciaran Tourish, Win Horan, Brendan Mulvihill--watch these fiddlers close up in person, and even from 3 feet away it's hard to see the motion, it's all in the fingers.
Brad, Silver Spear and Maids of Mt. Cisco are two of the tunes I used to hone my triplets. Great pratice pieces and good tunes in their own right. Also My Love is in America and Road to Lisdoonvarna as a reel.
I'm guessing Angela is locked in her bedroom right now, willing her hand to do cat-sneezes and get those triplets firing, hours on end....
Will - I, myself am going for Eileen stylee triplatos, practicing hard at them at the moment. Dont have a clue how to describe how I do them though! I was only ever taught one fiddle technique - the cut (or hammer) all the others were sort of self taught with encouragement from my Dad etc. I agree with your index finger wobbling! i can feel it in my forearm very slightly when i do it but not really my bicep. not sure if i'm loose enough when doing it, its quite a tense feeling - but hey i'm not complaining it seems to work. How many folks do you teach btw? your explanations are fantastic! anyway, now tell me how to improve my roll (which i only started practicing mid december last year) after reading how its done on here somewhere, i can sometimes hit a beast of a roll, but most often (80% maybe) its noticably slow. Any tips on getting some consistency or is it just a case of taking it out of the context of the tunes and practicing it seperately? thanks
mike
Can anyone do bowed triplets starting both on an up bow and a down bow?...ive been doing the former successfully for about 5 years and its a bitch learning to do it the other way round.my down bow triplets vary as to the sound. sometimes they sound like a pop, other times like a scrunch.Eileen Ivers is definately a role model when it comes to triplets. any tips on getting consistency?
repetition, of course, the same as learning any other technique...
Man, I can't remember the last time I had to think about how to do a triplet. I think that's something I learned in my classical violin days, before I ever picked up fiddle music. Dunno... (And now it's going to drive me nuts, dissecting it all...)
David, I too tend to play either very cleary articulated triplets or fairly crunchy ones, depending on my mood and what I want to hear at the moment. I used to think the crunchy ones demanded more forearm than the clear ones, but now I do both with the same, minimalist finger technique. And just to be clear, for me it's not a snap of the fingers at the end of a whippy forearm motion, though I used to do them that way (so much so that after a few hours of tossing triplets into tunes, my forearm would be tired. Now I an play triplets all night and not feel a thing). To my ear, these minimalist, right index finger-induced triplets sound better than my old triplets.
For the crunchy ones, the only difference I can feel is that I lean the hair into the string more (in my case, I had been doing them crunchy for years, and so had to learn to *not* lean on the bow so much if I wanted them airy and clean).
Happycamper, from what I've seen, more and more fiddlers are learning to do 'scratch' triplets in both directions. I learned them down-up-down first, and dabbled enough with up-down-up that sometimes they happen that way too, though for me it's not a premeditated thing and it doesn't happen very often. Some poeple can do both with ease and yet are very deliberate about which direction they're going for any given triplet.
Mike, my two cents on getting crisp, percussive rolls (and you probably already know this, but maybe it will help someone else):
First, make sure your cuts are crisp and full of pop. That comes from (1) taking a well-timed wind-up (rearing your finger up above the string) before swinging the cut finger down toward the string, (2) thwacking the string without actually pressing it toward the fingerboard (the motion is more a matter of sweeping your fingertip across the string--always toward your palm--than slamming down onto it), and (3) allowing your finger to follow through, like a golf swing, back toward your palm. Throughout the cut motion, each of your fingers should stay loose and free of any tension. Practice your cuts and get them working really well before trying rolls.
Second, remember that only the 'home' note in a roll is actually sounded as a definite musical pitch. The other 'notes' aren't really notes at all, but abrupt interruptions in the vibration of the string caused by a cut with a higher finger, and then briefly applying less pressure on the string with the 'home' note finger.
A roll on the second string B might look like this in exploded abc notation: | B{d}B{A}B | but only the B (home) note is actually heard as a distinct pitch. The {d} is a cut with the ring finger, and as described above, the string isn't actually pressed to the fingerboard to sound the d. Instead, the ring finger sweeps across the string, just nicking it so that the B note stops resonating fully for a nanosecond. Then, for the {A} part of the roll, your index finger lets the string come away from the fingerboard. You don't need to let the string all the way up, and your finger doesn't have to come completely off the string for the roll to sound properly. Again, your'e simply interrupting the vibration of that B note for a nanosecond. It's okay if your finger *does* come off the string completely, but it's not essential that it do so. Of course, it *is* essential to come right back down on the B as quickly as you can.
Finally, think of the timing of a roll as a long locomotive pulling four short cars. The first note is the locomotive--you hang on that note. Then the four short cars (the roll) blast by in about the same amount of time as it took for that first note to pass. On our example of the B roll, that first B note lasts for about a dotted eighth note worth of time, and then the {d}B{A}B fills another dotted eighth note worth of time. (This describes a 'long' roll, which fills the space of a dotted quarter note, as opposed to a short roll, which fills the space of a quarter note. Most fiddlers play short rolls by simply not hanging on that first 'home' note--in other words, the locomotive is much shorter.)
Gawd, I hope I'm making sense. It's so much easier to show this than to write it out in words.
Of course, no one thinks about all this while ripping through a set of reels down at the pub. But one advantage to anaylizing technique in such detail is that it can help you troubleshoot your own playing. I find it really helps me hear what I'm doing if I've previously thought about each of the elements that go into playing this music. It's certainly a useful approach to teaching, and what is 'practicing' if not teaching yourself and helping yourself improve?
P.S. Howard posted while I was writing my epic. That last paragraph of mine wasn't aimed at him, but it does respond to his comments.
In talking with some amazing fiddlers over the years, I've found that nearly all of them are very articulate and specific when they talk about the details like this. I interpret that, right or wrong, that the top players get there in part by consciously working on every little detail of their technique. Then, when it comes time to play, they can focus instead on the music and their own feelings, and the well-honed technique takes care of itself.
Practice the first few bars of The Silver Spear, over and over and over! You can also try "Crossing The Minch" (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/2117) as a good tune for practicing triplets. Natalie MacMaster recommended it as one of the best tunes for learning them at a workshop I attended.
BTW, she calls them 'cuts,' too; must be a Cape Breton thing....
I find that I can get mine to sound better (both up and down bow) if I initiate the motion from my upper arm (sort of a quick tensing of the bicep) rather than wrist/lower arm and let the natural tendency of the rest of the arm to follow the motion complete the sound. Keeping the lower arm and wrist loose helps it to "flow."
It's very hard to explain, and I still don't get them right all of the time.
Any tips on doing "cuts"?
Any tips on doing "cuts"?
Do any of you trad fiddle players out there have any tips on how to do cuts? You know, when you play the same note 3 times really fast? I can't seem to get it! Believe me, I HAVE been trying.
Is there certin way to move the wrist or something like that?
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Angela Michelle
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
That sounds more like a triplet (sometimes referred to as a treble bow) to me, Angela. A "cut" is a technique where the note is fingered , played for a certain time and there's a "pull off" or "flick" of the finger which leaves you with a lower note sounding perhaps on an open string or with another finger in a lower position.
I think the trick of playing triplets is not to attempt three successive notes as such. It's a kind of rocky, shaky motion with the wrist which I can do but not describe properly here. I tried for ages too but it eventually came to me with no rhyme or reason.
No doubt, one of the better fiddlers will explain it all in more detail quite soon.
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Johannes J
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
It sounds like what your after is a triplet AKA treble bow. It's all in the bowing, it's a "down up down" pattern. Here's a good excercise Play the open E on a Downstroke than the A on an upstroke then comes the triplet down up down on the A string. so in ABC it would be
veuA (3vAuAvA the v's are downstrokes & the u's are upstrokes
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Mad Baloney
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
Oops crossposted
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Mad Baloney
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
I think you mean bowed (or 'scratch') triplets?
'Cut' is the term usually reserved for a left-hand technique of thwacking the string with a finger higher than the note being held, to articulate it.
So if it's the quick triplet with the bow you're looking for advice on, try searching the discussion threads for "bowed triplet." There's a lot of info here already.
Here's a quick synposis:
1. Most people play bowed triplets down-up-down. Some people do them up-down-up, and some can go either way.
2. Contrary to how percussive it can sound, the triplet comes from a very light, relaxed, tiny hiccup of the one or two fingers (index, mostly) controlling the bow. Yes, it takes a relaxed wrist, but the key to getting the quickness of the three notes is in reducing the motion to a light flick of the index finger. In other words, the wrist and forearm really aren't involved--that's too big a motion to get it light and tight.
3. In the beginning, it helps to play a definite, deliberate set-up bow stroke before the triplet. If you're doing down-up-down triplets, start with a longer than average up bow. Let the bow and fingers dangle loosely from your wrist. In the nanosecond before the first down stroke, the middle joint of your index finger lightens up, so it looks and feels like the triplet begins with a slight upward motion of that index finger. You can approximate this motion by putting your hand face down on a table top, just the heel of your hand and the fingertips touching the table. Now lift your index tip just a hair off the table, and then tap it down twice, as quick as you can. The rest of the hand stays relaxed and motionless. That's all the movement you need to get a bowed triplet.
4. Expect this to take years of refining to get it to sound they way you want, consistently.
5. Strive to play all three notes clean and distinct. You can very the amount of 'tkkch' you get by leaning or easing off the bow--pressing the hair into the string, or not. That's up to you, and most fiddlers vary it depending on their mood and what the tune seems to want. Eventually, you'll want to be able to finger two or three separate notes within a triplet--a common ornament in Irish trad music.
6. Find a role model. It helps a *huge amount* to see and hear what's happening, in person, from someone whose triplets are brilliant. Even after 15 years of playing triplets, I made a quantum leap after seeing a top-tier player's bow hand close up at a session. (And yet, as Zina--and Sean Smyth--will tell you, I can still fumble a triplet, particularly if it's before 10 in the morning)
7. Don't give up. It takes time and repetition. And it's worth it in the long run. I woodshedded for years on triplets with one little exercise: |: Bd (3ddd Bd (3ddd :| where the Bd is played on an up bow, and the triplet (3ddd is played down-up-down. I think it helps to put the triplet into context like this. Another good one, to gain control of the triplet on an open string (which tends to feel a bit bouncier) is - |: FA (3AAA BA (3AAA :| played down on F, up on A, d-u-d on the triplet, and slur from the down bow ending the triplet into a continued down bow on the next B, then up on A, d-u-d on the triplet, repeat.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
"The Silver Spear" is a good tune to apply the FA(3AAA excercise Will wrote about. Also the Maids of Mt Cisco with it's EA(3AAA bits. In the begining you should try to keep them clean with as litle "crunch" as possible, remember - tone before speed. You shouldn't use more than about a half inch to an inch of bow in either direction on the triplet.
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Mad Baloney
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
David, I used to think triplets required a hard contraction in my forearm, and I could certainly feel it in my bicep as well. But now the bicep is all but out of the picture, and the forearm as well. I'm sure there's still some micro-firing of the muscles there, and maybe even enough to feel (more so on hard, crunchy triplets, from leaning on the bow, and also more on the G and D strings than on the A and E strings, because the upper arm comes more into play there). But my triplets got much cleaner and crisper--and more consistent--when I reduced everything to a nearly imperceptible jiggle of the index finger.
That's not to say it's the only or the 'correct' way to throw triplets. Sean Smyth teaches them coming with the bow off the string between the lead-in up bow and the first down bow of the triplet (an unecessary complication, in my eyes, and extraneous movement to boot, but it certainly works for Mr. Smyth). Tommy Peoples does his famous right hand finger flick against the stick to get extra crunch--few people can manage that with his speed and control. Mairead Mhaonaigh uses more wrist and even forearm.
But I've seen lots of really good fiddlers do them nice and crisp and clean (and crunchy when they want that) with nothing more than the index finger, and half an inch or *less* (sometimes much less) of the hair. Eileen Ivers (no matter whether you like her music, her triplets are amazing--always clean, always perfectly timed), Liz Carroll, Kevin Burke, Cait Reed, Brian Conway, Ciaran Tourish, Win Horan, Brendan Mulvihill--watch these fiddlers close up in person, and even from 3 feet away it's hard to see the motion, it's all in the fingers.
Brad, Silver Spear and Maids of Mt. Cisco are two of the tunes I used to hone my triplets. Great pratice pieces and good tunes in their own right. Also My Love is in America and Road to Lisdoonvarna as a reel.
I'm guessing Angela is locked in her bedroom right now, willing her hand to do cat-sneezes and get those triplets firing, hours on end....
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
Will - I, myself am going for Eileen stylee triplatos, practicing hard at them at the moment. Dont have a clue how to describe how I do them though! I was only ever taught one fiddle technique - the cut (or hammer) all the others were sort of self taught with encouragement from my Dad etc. I agree with your index finger wobbling! i can feel it in my forearm very slightly when i do it but not really my bicep. not sure if i'm loose enough when doing it, its quite a tense feeling - but hey i'm not complaining it seems to work. How many folks do you teach btw? your explanations are fantastic! anyway, now tell me how to improve my roll (which i only started practicing mid december last year) after reading how its done on here somewhere, i can sometimes hit a beast of a roll, but most often (80% maybe) its noticably slow. Any tips on getting some consistency or is it just a case of taking it out of the context of the tunes and practicing it seperately? thanks
mike
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Mike.Vass
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
Can anyone do bowed triplets starting both on an up bow and a down bow?...ive been doing the former successfully for about 5 years and its a bitch learning to do it the other way round.my down bow triplets vary as to the sound. sometimes they sound like a pop, other times like a scrunch.Eileen Ivers is definately a role model when it comes to triplets. any tips on getting consistency?
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by imahappycamper
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
repetition, of course, the same as learning any other technique...
Man, I can't remember the last time I had to think about how to do a triplet. I think that's something I learned in my classical violin days, before I ever picked up fiddle music. Dunno... (And now it's going to drive me nuts, dissecting it all...)
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
David, I too tend to play either very cleary articulated triplets or fairly crunchy ones, depending on my mood and what I want to hear at the moment. I used to think the crunchy ones demanded more forearm than the clear ones, but now I do both with the same, minimalist finger technique. And just to be clear, for me it's not a snap of the fingers at the end of a whippy forearm motion, though I used to do them that way (so much so that after a few hours of tossing triplets into tunes, my forearm would be tired. Now I an play triplets all night and not feel a thing). To my ear, these minimalist, right index finger-induced triplets sound better than my old triplets.
For the crunchy ones, the only difference I can feel is that I lean the hair into the string more (in my case, I had been doing them crunchy for years, and so had to learn to *not* lean on the bow so much if I wanted them airy and clean).
Happycamper, from what I've seen, more and more fiddlers are learning to do 'scratch' triplets in both directions. I learned them down-up-down first, and dabbled enough with up-down-up that sometimes they happen that way too, though for me it's not a premeditated thing and it doesn't happen very often. Some poeple can do both with ease and yet are very deliberate about which direction they're going for any given triplet.
Mike, my two cents on getting crisp, percussive rolls (and you probably already know this, but maybe it will help someone else):
First, make sure your cuts are crisp and full of pop. That comes from (1) taking a well-timed wind-up (rearing your finger up above the string) before swinging the cut finger down toward the string, (2) thwacking the string without actually pressing it toward the fingerboard (the motion is more a matter of sweeping your fingertip across the string--always toward your palm--than slamming down onto it), and (3) allowing your finger to follow through, like a golf swing, back toward your palm. Throughout the cut motion, each of your fingers should stay loose and free of any tension. Practice your cuts and get them working really well before trying rolls.
Second, remember that only the 'home' note in a roll is actually sounded as a definite musical pitch. The other 'notes' aren't really notes at all, but abrupt interruptions in the vibration of the string caused by a cut with a higher finger, and then briefly applying less pressure on the string with the 'home' note finger.
A roll on the second string B might look like this in exploded abc notation: | B{d}B{A}B | but only the B (home) note is actually heard as a distinct pitch. The {d} is a cut with the ring finger, and as described above, the string isn't actually pressed to the fingerboard to sound the d. Instead, the ring finger sweeps across the string, just nicking it so that the B note stops resonating fully for a nanosecond. Then, for the {A} part of the roll, your index finger lets the string come away from the fingerboard. You don't need to let the string all the way up, and your finger doesn't have to come completely off the string for the roll to sound properly. Again, your'e simply interrupting the vibration of that B note for a nanosecond. It's okay if your finger *does* come off the string completely, but it's not essential that it do so. Of course, it *is* essential to come right back down on the B as quickly as you can.
Finally, think of the timing of a roll as a long locomotive pulling four short cars. The first note is the locomotive--you hang on that note. Then the four short cars (the roll) blast by in about the same amount of time as it took for that first note to pass. On our example of the B roll, that first B note lasts for about a dotted eighth note worth of time, and then the {d}B{A}B fills another dotted eighth note worth of time. (This describes a 'long' roll, which fills the space of a dotted quarter note, as opposed to a short roll, which fills the space of a quarter note. Most fiddlers play short rolls by simply not hanging on that first 'home' note--in other words, the locomotive is much shorter.)
Gawd, I hope I'm making sense. It's so much easier to show this than to write it out in words.
Of course, no one thinks about all this while ripping through a set of reels down at the pub. But one advantage to anaylizing technique in such detail is that it can help you troubleshoot your own playing. I find it really helps me hear what I'm doing if I've previously thought about each of the elements that go into playing this music. It's certainly a useful approach to teaching, and what is 'practicing' if not teaching yourself and helping yourself improve?
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
P.S. Howard posted while I was writing my epic. That last paragraph of mine wasn't aimed at him, but it does respond to his comments.
In talking with some amazing fiddlers over the years, I've found that nearly all of them are very articulate and specific when they talk about the details like this. I interpret that, right or wrong, that the top players get there in part by consciously working on every little detail of their technique. Then, when it comes time to play, they can focus instead on the music and their own feelings, and the well-honed technique takes care of itself.
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Any tips on doing "cuts"?
Practice the first few bars of The Silver Spear, over and over and over! You can also try "Crossing The Minch" (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/2117) as a good tune for practicing triplets. Natalie MacMaster recommended it as one of the best tunes for learning them at a workshop I attended.
BTW, she calls them 'cuts,' too; must be a Cape Breton thing....
I find that I can get mine to sound better (both up and down bow) if I initiate the motion from my upper arm (sort of a quick tensing of the bicep) rather than wrist/lower arm and let the natural tendency of the rest of the arm to follow the motion complete the sound. Keeping the lower arm and wrist loose helps it to "flow."
It's very hard to explain, and I still don't get them right all of the time.
# Posted on March 22nd 2004 by KeepFiddlin'