I just found an ad today for an 1887 Collin Mezin Luthier A-Paris
I'm not familiar with this violin. It was appraised between 4,000 and 5,000 and they are asking for 3,200. I'm going to check it out tonight. This for me would be a large investment and I was wondering if anyone might know if this sounds like a good deal. Or if this violin would be suitable for irish fiddling.
Collin-Mezin (search on Google for more info) is a well-known name in violin making. My cello teacher had a Collin-Mezin cello he used a lot (as well as 3 others!), and it sounded fine as a solo instrument. I can't say, though, that I've come across a C-M fiddle knowing it as such.
I'd take a knowledgeable friend or teacher along with you to view the instrument and try it out. Take your own bow with you so that you've got a good basis for comparison. Inspect the fiddle closely for alignments, any visible cracks or splits, how easily (or not) the pegs turn, the state of the bridge, any worm-holes (a distinct possibility if it's been laid up in an attic or cupboard for a long time). Things like that.
Any modern violin (which means anything post-18c and with a modern set-up) should be ok for Irish fiddling. You may want to play around with various makes and types of string to get the tone you want, and you might want to lower the bridge a mm or two in order to get a lower action (if you've never done this exercise get a luthier or an experienced person to do it for you and show you how - don't attempt it by yourself).
Trevor
FBug, I don't know if this helps. I'm no fiddle/violin expert but, if you go to the site below, you can see and hear a CM violin, listed at 1950 BP. The clip is Classical and I'm not sure how it would sound with a diff setup as Trev suggests and in the hands of a good ITM player. Maybe T or others could listen and give their opinion. It's too big a leap for my imagination.
Mairtin and fiddlebug, I've had a listen to that sound clip (I've saved it on my pc as well).
It's a nice full sound, over the range played. It's a fiddle I'd rather like (not that I'm after it, I've already got two fiddles!). The tone sounds a bit "classical", but I think may be largely the music being played and the way it's played.
What I look for in an instrument is responsiveness - the sound coming easily, so you don't have to work too hard. Next is resonance, which I think is allied to responsiveness. I don't like an instrument that feels dead, with a wooden response.
I'm not so concerned with the volume of tone per se. I suspect there is a modern tendency to make violins with a large volume of tone, perhaps for orchestral reasons to compete with the louder brass instruments now being used, whereas in years gone by instruments were generally quieter. All to do with modern civilization being that much more noisy, I expect. A good-toned quiet instrument can have surprising carrying power and penetration, whereas a loud instrument with a rough tone can have the opposite. The quality of the tone (clarity, richness etc) depends on the instrument itself and the strings.
If a fiddle sounds too "classical" for your liking, a different set of strings could make a difference. Steel core strings could move the tone away from the lush "classical" sound of the more expensive synthetic core strings, as can minimising the use of vibrato. Altering the bridge and soundpost will also make a big difference to the tone and response, but this specialist activity must be left to a skilled luthier. Don't forget that if the soundpost and bridge are replaced the instrument usually takes quite a while to settle in. The same applies to string changes; many synthetic core strings (eg Dominants) often sound metallic for a few days when new, and this can be quite off-putting if you don't know what going on.
Finally, the bow itself has a significant effect on the tone and reponse of the violin, a fact often not appreciated by a lot of players. I have three bows, all eminently playable and rehaired within the last two or three years. Each bow produces a different tone from the other two.
Well done, Trevor. I refrained from making a comment earlier because I lack experience with fiddles. I thought it a good instrument with a full? tone, but I thought it very alien to Irish fiddles I have known. Almost sounded like a base fiddle or a viola to me. But then I've no idea how much it might be tweaked to trad with adjustments, bow, player, etc. as you mention. Has any of this helped you F'BUG?
Fiddlebug, You should consider a couple of things.Firstly how competent are you ? the fiddle you are considering is really quite expensive(maybe not for an advanced classical player}for a traditional player. I know at least one very good trad player here in Ireland who told me she would never consider paying more than £800 for a fiddle.For this type of money you could get areally good modern fiddle.
might be getting a new fiddle
might be getting a new fiddle
I just found an ad today for an 1887 Collin Mezin Luthier A-Paris
I'm not familiar with this violin. It was appraised between 4,000 and 5,000 and they are asking for 3,200. I'm going to check it out tonight. This for me would be a large investment and I was wondering if anyone might know if this sounds like a good deal. Or if this violin would be suitable for irish fiddling.
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by fiddlebug
Re: might be getting a new fiddle
Collin-Mezin (search on Google for more info) is a well-known name in violin making. My cello teacher had a Collin-Mezin cello he used a lot (as well as 3 others!), and it sounded fine as a solo instrument. I can't say, though, that I've come across a C-M fiddle knowing it as such.
I'd take a knowledgeable friend or teacher along with you to view the instrument and try it out. Take your own bow with you so that you've got a good basis for comparison. Inspect the fiddle closely for alignments, any visible cracks or splits, how easily (or not) the pegs turn, the state of the bridge, any worm-holes (a distinct possibility if it's been laid up in an attic or cupboard for a long time). Things like that.
Any modern violin (which means anything post-18c and with a modern set-up) should be ok for Irish fiddling. You may want to play around with various makes and types of string to get the tone you want, and you might want to lower the bridge a mm or two in order to get a lower action (if you've never done this exercise get a luthier or an experienced person to do it for you and show you how - don't attempt it by yourself).
Trevor
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by lazyhound
Re: might be getting a new fiddle
FBug, I don't know if this helps. I'm no fiddle/violin expert but, if you go to the site below, you can see and hear a CM violin, listed at 1950 BP. The clip is Classical and I'm not sure how it would sound with a diff setup as Trev suggests and in the hands of a good ITM player. Maybe T or others could listen and give their opinion. It's too big a leap for my imagination.
http://www.westcountryviolins.com/web_pages/stock_29.htm
mairtin
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by frozenstiff
Re: might be getting a new fiddle
Mairtin and fiddlebug, I've had a listen to that sound clip (I've saved it on my pc as well).
It's a nice full sound, over the range played. It's a fiddle I'd rather like (not that I'm after it, I've already got two fiddles!). The tone sounds a bit "classical", but I think may be largely the music being played and the way it's played.
What I look for in an instrument is responsiveness - the sound coming easily, so you don't have to work too hard. Next is resonance, which I think is allied to responsiveness. I don't like an instrument that feels dead, with a wooden response.
I'm not so concerned with the volume of tone per se. I suspect there is a modern tendency to make violins with a large volume of tone, perhaps for orchestral reasons to compete with the louder brass instruments now being used, whereas in years gone by instruments were generally quieter. All to do with modern civilization being that much more noisy, I expect. A good-toned quiet instrument can have surprising carrying power and penetration, whereas a loud instrument with a rough tone can have the opposite. The quality of the tone (clarity, richness etc) depends on the instrument itself and the strings.
If a fiddle sounds too "classical" for your liking, a different set of strings could make a difference. Steel core strings could move the tone away from the lush "classical" sound of the more expensive synthetic core strings, as can minimising the use of vibrato. Altering the bridge and soundpost will also make a big difference to the tone and response, but this specialist activity must be left to a skilled luthier. Don't forget that if the soundpost and bridge are replaced the instrument usually takes quite a while to settle in. The same applies to string changes; many synthetic core strings (eg Dominants) often sound metallic for a few days when new, and this can be quite off-putting if you don't know what going on.
Finally, the bow itself has a significant effect on the tone and reponse of the violin, a fact often not appreciated by a lot of players. I have three bows, all eminently playable and rehaired within the last two or three years. Each bow produces a different tone from the other two.
Trevor
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by lazyhound
Re: might be getting a new fiddle
Well done, Trevor. I refrained from making a comment earlier because I lack experience with fiddles. I thought it a good instrument with a full? tone, but I thought it very alien to Irish fiddles I have known. Almost sounded like a base fiddle or a viola to me. But then I've no idea how much it might be tweaked to trad with adjustments, bow, player, etc. as you mention. Has any of this helped you F'BUG?
mairtin
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by frozenstiff
Re: might be getting a new fiddle
Fiddlebug, You should consider a couple of things.Firstly how competent are you ? the fiddle you are considering is really quite expensive(maybe not for an advanced classical player}for a traditional player. I know at least one very good trad player here in Ireland who told me she would never consider paying more than £800 for a fiddle.For this type of money you could get areally good modern fiddle.
# Posted on March 3rd 2004 by doire