I'm interested to know what the favourites are amongst the members. There is of course "diddley, diddley" for jigs and, as Michael pointed out, dum dee dum etc for hornpies. The English have "rumpty tumpty" for their Morris tunes and the Highland pipers like to enjoy a little bit of "heedrum hodrum".
Some people make up their own, of course. I've heard things like "strawberry, strawberry" used for jigs and, at a workshop once, the tutor came out with "I've just knitted a jersey, it was ever so easy" for a Macedonian tune.
In school, of course, we were taught things like "ta-fa-ti-fe" etc but there must hundreds of permutations. So, what are some of the most ridiculous you've come across and do you have any particular favourites?
On a more serious note, does describing a form of music i.e Irish as "Diddley dee" or Highland music as "Heedrum Hodrum" devalue it in any way? Or perhaps, these terms are just used by people (including many players) as a term of affection? I know we've discussed this before but not for a while.
I may be being pedantic, but isn't a mnemonic a rhyme or device to help remember a fact (i.e. Every Good Boy Deserves Favour)? Expressions like Diddley Diddley, or Be-Bop are Onomatopoeic (words which mimic a natural sound).
?
You're actually correct here, Ottery, but I've seen the term used (perhaps wrongly) with regard to assisting in remembering and absorbing different forms of rhythm in music.
"Onomatopoeic" is certainly a more accurate description, according to my dictionary. :>))
Perhaps, we can widen the discussion a bit here to include the "EGBDF" examples?
Wrong, peasant .. . sorry, I mean pedant. Neither onomats nor mnemons, just forms of LILT.
Season being Lent, as it is, young man goes to CONFESSION. Having a little bother with sins of the FLESH. Becoming enslaved to his BASER urgings. Confessor suitably shocked. Fire and brimstone. Gates of HELL are opening wide. Young man CONTRITE, REPENTANT. ...BUT, needs some practical advice on how to deal with this VICE. ADVICE forthcoming, to wit:
When you feel the bestial URGE RISING within you, advises the confessor, take hold of your member. Show him that you are in charge. Call on him to DIE so that you may LIVE in GOD'S holy GRACE. . . . 5 our fathers, five hail marys, five glory be . . .
TIME passes. URGES do arise, or attempt to arise. But, the young man is up to the challenge. Member cannot withstand the young man's WITHERING, ICY blast of DIE. Member is pathetic, pleads for a little PLEASURE ... to no avail. YM is MASTER of his DOMAIN.
Time passes. Challenges become more POTENT. The OLD MAN in him starts to gain ASCENDANCY. Our young friend is in GRAVE danger for his MORTAL SOUL, but he is DETERMINED not to submit or yield (something like SATAN in Milton's PL). He takes a firm grip of his member and calls out DIE. Far from dying, the member laughs at his MASTER (sic). YM calls out again with more intensity, DIE, DIE. The OLD MAN , far from being beaten, SWELLS with (false) PRIDE, and throws back the challenge in his face. Again, the young man calls out DIE ! DIE! DIE! (with increasing tempo) die-die-die-diddly-idle-didal-didal ... (tempo increasing to 180 . . . before dropping to Martin Hayes tempo).
Bail o Dhia oraibh,
I would like to report a breach of security in my internet connection which has led to some unauthorized contributuions which did not originate with me.
Is mise bhur gcara,
mairtin
Oh, you haven't lived until you've used some of Michael Bolton's (I mean, the Michael Bolton who is a member here, not the pop star one) little bits. My favorite is the one he uses for the reel:
This is a rhythm that the Irish call a reel and you can
tell it from a jig because it has a different feel!
umpa-ti-tle, umpa-ti-tle.....for a reel and
utt-ta-ta, utt-ta-ta, for a jig.
is Mary Bergin's way of teaching the tongueing for her whistle style. She can also write a tune in modified ABC notation just about as fast as I can write my name. She doesn't worry about octaves or timing, just leaves that for you to figure out. Not a good "mnemonic" or "Onomatopoeic" for flute players though.
I've seen Mary Bergin's modified ABC notation used in Scoil Eigse classes, on the blackboard. It's very basic, as stated. No timing, upper case letters only, and the only indication of an octave, if it's not otherwise obvious, is a chalk tick at the top or bottom of the letter as appropriate.
Trevor
Trevor, I assume Mary's notation is to be inclusive of those who don't read standard notation. However, it does seem to go against the prevailing sentinment of "not learningfrom the dots" (or, in this case, "not learning from the letters and chalk ticks." Is Mary a heretic??
You know, I might have been a bit hasty in saying this couldn't be mnemonics (anyone remember the muppets, min-em-in-aw). Yes, I do remember part of a little rhyme that immediately brings a tune to the surface. I learned it from my much older brother when I was 4 or 5 and he probably only taught me the clean bit. It went with Dad's playing of The Stack of Barley (hornpipe):
Oh, me father caught a rabbit and he thought he was a buck,
And he ran around the table with his tail cocked up.
grego, I suppose the reason the Scoile Eigse tutors (or all the ones I came into contact with) provide ABC notation (or even the dots!) is because of the unique circumstances of the S.E. Don't forget that the S.E. is a very concentrated few days of teaching, pupils are there from all over the world (having paid good money), not all have recording devices, a particular tune is taught over a restricted period of time, and generally for that period only, so there's not much opportunity to recap at the end of the week. In such circumstances pupils naturally need something to work on and remind them of the tunes when they return home. Also, many of the tunes taught may be uncommon and may be versions particular to the tutor.
Trevor
Ottery is quite right that the labelling of this thread is out of context.
Funny though, that mnemonic pops up as thread title at this moment..
The last few weeks I've been working on an adapting a (reusable) mnemonic system to convert the A- B-Cs into savvy mnemonics that can be translated back and forth in order to store the tunes in my head as a linked story. I haven't come very far yet, but If so far it seems promising.
Hi Alex, I've been checking out your link, and am not too sure what to make out of it.
Anyone had any experience with it? To me it seems to be ab aid in the audible memory.
Is there any way of using this to e.g. make a memorable memory of the two first two bars of The Maid behind the Bar.?
My idea of a mnemonic system is to get a "peg" system to remember and map tune titles to the music just as to get the tune started (kickstart)
Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
I'm interested to know what the favourites are amongst the members. There is of course "diddley, diddley" for jigs and, as Michael pointed out, dum dee dum etc for hornpies. The English have "rumpty tumpty" for their Morris tunes and the Highland pipers like to enjoy a little bit of "heedrum hodrum".
Some people make up their own, of course. I've heard things like "strawberry, strawberry" used for jigs and, at a workshop once, the tutor came out with "I've just knitted a jersey, it was ever so easy" for a Macedonian tune.
In school, of course, we were taught things like "ta-fa-ti-fe" etc but there must hundreds of permutations. So, what are some of the most ridiculous you've come across and do you have any particular favourites?
On a more serious note, does describing a form of music i.e Irish as "Diddley dee" or Highland music as "Heedrum Hodrum" devalue it in any way? Or perhaps, these terms are just used by people (including many players) as a term of affection? I know we've discussed this before but not for a while.
John
# Posted on March 1st 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Hi John
Try Fi Fo Fum Fum Fi Fi Fo Fi
If nothing else, It'l get you straight through Chris Ewebank.
Sorry Couldn't resist
Conrad
# Posted on March 1st 2004 by darnoc
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
diddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddleiddle
(bodhran player acompanying slow air)
# Posted on March 1st 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
I may be being pedantic, but isn't a mnemonic a rhyme or device to help remember a fact (i.e. Every Good Boy Deserves Favour)? Expressions like Diddley Diddley, or Be-Bop are Onomatopoeic (words which mimic a natural sound).
?
# Posted on March 1st 2004 by Ottery
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
I've heard that the words "taco" and "borrito" can be used in combination to describe any rhythm. But hey, my bass player is pretty wierd.
~Autumn
# Posted on March 1st 2004 by autumn
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
You're actually correct here, Ottery, but I've seen the term used (perhaps wrongly) with regard to assisting in remembering and absorbing different forms of rhythm in music.
"Onomatopoeic" is certainly a more accurate description, according to my dictionary. :>))
Perhaps, we can widen the discussion a bit here to include the "EGBDF" examples?
John
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
I have a bit of a background in jazz, and I get some pretty strange looks when I'm trying to lilt a tune like this:
"Squeee-bop, ba diddly-bop, diddly-deiddly dum, bop shoo-bop baba zoom..."
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by darinkelly
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Wrong, peasant .. . sorry, I mean pedant. Neither onomats nor mnemons, just forms of LILT.
Season being Lent, as it is, young man goes to CONFESSION. Having a little bother with sins of the FLESH. Becoming enslaved to his BASER urgings. Confessor suitably shocked. Fire and brimstone. Gates of HELL are opening wide. Young man CONTRITE, REPENTANT. ...BUT, needs some practical advice on how to deal with this VICE. ADVICE forthcoming, to wit:
When you feel the bestial URGE RISING within you, advises the confessor, take hold of your member. Show him that you are in charge. Call on him to DIE so that you may LIVE in GOD'S holy GRACE. . . . 5 our fathers, five hail marys, five glory be . . .
TIME passes. URGES do arise, or attempt to arise. But, the young man is up to the challenge. Member cannot withstand the young man's WITHERING, ICY blast of DIE. Member is pathetic, pleads for a little PLEASURE ... to no avail. YM is MASTER of his DOMAIN.
Time passes. Challenges become more POTENT. The OLD MAN in him starts to gain ASCENDANCY. Our young friend is in GRAVE danger for his MORTAL SOUL, but he is DETERMINED not to submit or yield (something like SATAN in Milton's PL). He takes a firm grip of his member and calls out DIE. Far from dying, the member laughs at his MASTER (sic). YM calls out again with more intensity, DIE, DIE. The OLD MAN , far from being beaten, SWELLS with (false) PRIDE, and throws back the challenge in his face. Again, the young man calls out DIE ! DIE! DIE! (with increasing tempo) die-die-die-diddly-idle-didal-didal ... (tempo increasing to 180 . . . before dropping to Martin Hayes tempo).
unsigned
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by frozenstiff
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
The author of above is aptly named.
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Watermelon reel & gooseberry jig,
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by grego
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Bail o Dhia oraibh,
I would like to report a breach of security in my internet connection which has led to some unauthorized contributuions which did not originate with me.
Is mise bhur gcara,
mairtin
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by frozenstiff
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Jaysus & Mary & Jaysus & Mary.....
Jaysus & Mary & Joseph & Jaysus & Mary & Joseph.........
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Liz Carroll's favorite for slip jigs - "Buy the Band a Beer"
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Oh, you haven't lived until you've used some of Michael Bolton's (I mean, the Michael Bolton who is a member here, not the pop star one) little bits. My favorite is the one he uses for the reel:
This is a rhythm that the Irish call a reel and you can
tell it from a jig because it has a different feel!
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
umpa-ti-tle, umpa-ti-tle.....for a reel and
utt-ta-ta, utt-ta-ta, for a jig.
is Mary Bergin's way of teaching the tongueing for her whistle style. She can also write a tune in modified ABC notation just about as fast as I can write my name. She doesn't worry about octaves or timing, just leaves that for you to figure out. Not a good "mnemonic" or "Onomatopoeic" for flute players though.
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
I've seen Mary Bergin's modified ABC notation used in Scoil Eigse classes, on the blackboard. It's very basic, as stated. No timing, upper case letters only, and the only indication of an octave, if it's not otherwise obvious, is a chalk tick at the top or bottom of the letter as appropriate.
Trevor
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Trevor, I assume Mary's notation is to be inclusive of those who don't read standard notation. However, it does seem to go against the prevailing sentinment of "not learningfrom the dots" (or, in this case, "not learning from the letters and chalk ticks." Is Mary a heretic??
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by grego
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
You know, I might have been a bit hasty in saying this couldn't be mnemonics (anyone remember the muppets, min-em-in-aw). Yes, I do remember part of a little rhyme that immediately brings a tune to the surface. I learned it from my much older brother when I was 4 or 5 and he probably only taught me the clean bit. It went with Dad's playing of The Stack of Barley (hornpipe):
Oh, me father caught a rabbit and he thought he was a buck,
And he ran around the table with his tail cocked up.
Anyone else hear it, and is there any more to it.
mairtin
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by frozenstiff
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
grego, I suppose the reason the Scoile Eigse tutors (or all the ones I came into contact with) provide ABC notation (or even the dots!) is because of the unique circumstances of the S.E. Don't forget that the S.E. is a very concentrated few days of teaching, pupils are there from all over the world (having paid good money), not all have recording devices, a particular tune is taught over a restricted period of time, and generally for that period only, so there's not much opportunity to recap at the end of the week. In such circumstances pupils naturally need something to work on and remind them of the tunes when they return home. Also, many of the tunes taught may be uncommon and may be versions particular to the tutor.
Trevor
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Ottery is quite right that the labelling of this thread is out of context.
Funny though, that mnemonic pops up as thread title at this moment..
The last few weeks I've been working on an adapting a (reusable) mnemonic system to convert the A- B-Cs into savvy mnemonics that can be translated back and forth in order to store the tunes in my head as a linked story. I haven't come very far yet, but If so far it seems promising.
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by FiddleTramp
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Why bother creating a mnemonic system-one already exists CANNTAIREACHD! look at http://www.ubu.com/ethno/soundings/masters.html
for example of it...
# Posted on March 2nd 2004 by Baggie
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Hi Alex, I've been checking out your link, and am not too sure what to make out of it.
Anyone had any experience with it? To me it seems to be ab aid in the audible memory.
Is there any way of using this to e.g. make a memorable memory of the two first two bars of The Maid behind the Bar.?
My idea of a mnemonic system is to get a "peg" system to remember and map tune titles to the music just as to get the tune started (kickstart)
# Posted on March 3rd 2004 by FiddleTramp
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
Reels go: Rangers Celtic Rangers Celtic Rangers Celtic etc
Jigs go: Liverpool Everton Liverpool Everton Liverpool Everton etc
# Posted on March 4th 2004 by ...
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
..or: City United City United City United City United
- although that does rely on the 'nite' being lengthened somewhat.
# Posted on March 5th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Use of mnemonics in traditional music.
For a slip jig, like the butterfly try using
buy the band a beer, buy the band a G and T
# Posted on March 6th 2004 by lildogturpy