I know there's been an occasional mention of this, but I came up with no direct question in the archives, so here's my question.
In order to be a good instrument maker, do you have to be a good musician? I know style is a thing of preference, but I have heard some instrument makers play their own creations, and it just doesn't sound good no matter how you face it. Have people generally found this to be true? I've also been told that people who focus too much of their energy on making the instruments or learning about how it works have very little time for practicing, and therefore are not necessarily the best musicians. Would anyone be scared away from an instrument if the maker was not a good musician? After all, if a maker were to test an instrument and he/she were not a very good musician, how would he/she know if the instrument were quality? On the other end of things, how would a good musician who makes instruments (I can think of a few) know when an instrument he/she makes is not up to snuff? After all, a good musician can generally make anything sound good.
Anywho, hopefully this question hasn't been beaten to death. Just got thinking about it the other day as I contemplated getting a better flute.
I don't know whether or not you _need_ to be a good flute player to make good flutes, but Patrick Olwell is one of the best flute players I've ever heard (and I've heard quite a few.) And he makes great flutes, too, as you may know...
I don't think a good maker need be a good musician. I don't believe that the skills needed to make a good fiddle correspond to the skills needed to play well.
To make an excellent instrument, the craftsman needs to know a lot about the properties of wood. They need to have a superb standard of construction, knowing how to do all of the details with precision. But, the process of making violins (and most other instruments, I'd think) have been refined over years and years and it is adherence to the principles of good construction that makes good instruments.
To be excellent at something, you have to devote a lot of time. I'd prefer that the maker of my fiddle spend all his time practicing the art of making, not playing....
Does that mean that those of us who focus too much of our energy on things like jobs and kids and also have little time for practising aren't necesarily the best musicians either? Dang.
If your question is "Can a musician make a good instrument?" the answer is yes & if the question is "Can someone who isn't a musician make a good instrument" The answer is also yes. I know people who do a fine job playing one of their own creations, so I don't really know what your aiming at with that. An experienced player can spot flaws from further afield than a novice, so don't worry about that.
I know five violin makers (one of them being David A), in the Bristol area, who are also musicians; although, to be accurate, two of them are now doing other jobs.
I heard once that at the violin-making colleges the students are expected to be able to play to a reasonable standard. I don't know how true that is as a general statement (perhaps David A would comment), perhaps it only applies to some colleges.
Trevor
a) Leo Fender couldn't play a note. He designed the standard electric bass and two of the three electric guitars that 90% of players use today. He did it 50-60 years ago. Oh yes and they are made up of bits not as a whole.
b) If you can't play, how do you know if its any good?
For the instrument making course I took at London Metropolitan University, formerly (and still best known as) the London College of Furniture, students are not required to be able to play - although formerly, I believe, some form of instrumental tuition was mandatory for those who were not already musicians. Naturally, a high proportion of people who apply for the course are musicians, to a greater or lesser degree.
For a professional instrument maker, it is certainly a help to be able to test out the instruments oneself, but what is surely more important is the opinion of potential customers. It is probably fair to say that a fiddle maker should have a sound bowing technique and a flute maker, a sound embouchure, so that they can learn to recognise the nuances of tone, and adjust their instruments accordingly.
Just to kind of respond to Mad Baloney. As I sorta indicated in my original post, I have met just as many good musicians-good instrument makers as I have not as good musicians-OK instrument makers. However, only having been at the music for about 2 and a half years, I didn't know if my perceptions of the connection between makers and musicians was on track. I was just sorta hoping to hear from those more experienced musicians on this site what their view on the issue was. Guess I wasn't really aiming at anything specific. More curiosity than anything.
The answer to the original question is "No - but it helps".
It all comes down to this.
If you make an instrument, you need to be able to determine whether it is a good instrument or not. To do this, you need either to be a reasonably competent player yourself, or have a suitably close and communicative relationship with a competent player.
The instrument maker needs to be able to assess and correct any problems which arise, and these may not be apparent until the instrument is played. (Just for an easily understood example: you might make a mandolin which has a very nice tone when you pick the strings one at a time, but then find that the spacing of the strings is so close that no-one can play chords, or so far apart that no one can play comfortably).
Having determined the requirements for the instrument, then the maker has to have the technical ability to do the work necessary.
I know a maker who relies on another guy to play his instruments to dertermine quality. But I know a far greater number of players who rely on someone with technical skills to repair or improve their instruments.
I 'm somewhere in between - I make some, alter and repair some. But generally I only work on instruments I can play.
I expect most of us at some time or other have started a post, gone to another part of this site, or even another site, for information, and then return to the post to find that all that carefully honed argument has evaporated into cyberspace.
A tip (which I now always do): Before you leave your half-prepared post, do Select All and then Copy. You can then let it remain in memory or (which is safer) dump it in Wordpad or Notepad for the duration. When you return to your post, which may now be an empty box, retrieve your saved material, either from memory with Paste, or from Wordpad or Notepad. I always keep icons to Wordpad and Notepad on my desktop specifically for this sort of thing.
Trevor
All the instrument maker's I know and have met are also really lovely musicians and really nice people. Patrick Olwell is a fine example. Not only is he an amazing person, but he's also an incredible flute player. And all this is reflected in his flutes. If I wanted to play pipes, Benedict Koehler would be the one for me. Instruments are such a personal thing that I need to have a deep respect and admiration for the maker as a person and musician. Of course I have to love how the instrument plays as well, but I believe one's persona and musical sensitivity is reflected in the instruments he makes.
Honestly, if someone isn't a very good musician and/ or I don't fancy his/her style of playing, I probably won't consider looking into his/her instruments.....I'm not saying a musician who isn't very good can't make a good instrument. Anything is possible....
The instrument makers I know are passionate about music and their own playing and it seems to reflect in their instruments.
There two distinct arts, both requiring an excellent ear, instrument making and music making. There is another similarity, though. Neither full time instrument maker or musician usually gets rich.
David A - No, I was at LCF from 2000 to 2003 - I am now enrolled on an evening class, to keep access to the facilities, as I do not have my own workshop. I think things have changed a lot there in the last 10 years or so. It has recently undergone its third name change.
Instrument makers as musicians
Instrument makers as musicians
I know there's been an occasional mention of this, but I came up with no direct question in the archives, so here's my question.
In order to be a good instrument maker, do you have to be a good musician? I know style is a thing of preference, but I have heard some instrument makers play their own creations, and it just doesn't sound good no matter how you face it. Have people generally found this to be true? I've also been told that people who focus too much of their energy on making the instruments or learning about how it works have very little time for practicing, and therefore are not necessarily the best musicians. Would anyone be scared away from an instrument if the maker was not a good musician? After all, if a maker were to test an instrument and he/she were not a very good musician, how would he/she know if the instrument were quality? On the other end of things, how would a good musician who makes instruments (I can think of a few) know when an instrument he/she makes is not up to snuff? After all, a good musician can generally make anything sound good.
Anywho, hopefully this question hasn't been beaten to death. Just got thinking about it the other day as I contemplated getting a better flute.
~~Jason
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by Jason G
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
I don't know whether or not you _need_ to be a good flute player to make good flutes, but Patrick Olwell is one of the best flute players I've ever heard (and I've heard quite a few.) And he makes great flutes, too, as you may know...
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by johnkerr
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
I don't think a good maker need be a good musician. I don't believe that the skills needed to make a good fiddle correspond to the skills needed to play well.
To make an excellent instrument, the craftsman needs to know a lot about the properties of wood. They need to have a superb standard of construction, knowing how to do all of the details with precision. But, the process of making violins (and most other instruments, I'd think) have been refined over years and years and it is adherence to the principles of good construction that makes good instruments.
To be excellent at something, you have to devote a lot of time. I'd prefer that the maker of my fiddle spend all his time practicing the art of making, not playing....
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
Does that mean that those of us who focus too much of our energy on things like jobs and kids and also have little time for practising aren't necesarily the best musicians either? Dang.
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
If your question is "Can a musician make a good instrument?" the answer is yes & if the question is "Can someone who isn't a musician make a good instrument" The answer is also yes. I know people who do a fine job playing one of their own creations, so I don't really know what your aiming at with that. An experienced player can spot flaws from further afield than a novice, so don't worry about that.
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by B Rad
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
I can make a good instrument sound bad... does that count?
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
Check out Terry McGee:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/flutepick.html
Scroll down to "what to look for in a new flute".
g
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by glauber
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
I know five violin makers (one of them being David A), in the Bristol area, who are also musicians; although, to be accurate, two of them are now doing other jobs.
I heard once that at the violin-making colleges the students are expected to be able to play to a reasonable standard. I don't know how true that is as a general statement (perhaps David A would comment), perhaps it only applies to some colleges.
Trevor
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
a) Leo Fender couldn't play a note. He designed the standard electric bass and two of the three electric guitars that 90% of players use today. He did it 50-60 years ago. Oh yes and they are made up of bits not as a whole.
b) If you can't play, how do you know if its any good?
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by marksmandolins
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
For the instrument making course I took at London Metropolitan University, formerly (and still best known as) the London College of Furniture, students are not required to be able to play - although formerly, I believe, some form of instrumental tuition was mandatory for those who were not already musicians. Naturally, a high proportion of people who apply for the course are musicians, to a greater or lesser degree.
For a professional instrument maker, it is certainly a help to be able to test out the instruments oneself, but what is surely more important is the opinion of potential customers. It is probably fair to say that a fiddle maker should have a sound bowing technique and a flute maker, a sound embouchure, so that they can learn to recognise the nuances of tone, and adjust their instruments accordingly.
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
Just to kind of respond to Mad Baloney. As I sorta indicated in my original post, I have met just as many good musicians-good instrument makers as I have not as good musicians-OK instrument makers. However, only having been at the music for about 2 and a half years, I didn't know if my perceptions of the connection between makers and musicians was on track. I was just sorta hoping to hear from those more experienced musicians on this site what their view on the issue was. Guess I wasn't really aiming at anything specific. More curiosity than anything.
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by Jason G
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
Does anyone know if Rudall or Rose could play the flute?
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
The answer to the original question is "No - but it helps".
It all comes down to this.
If you make an instrument, you need to be able to determine whether it is a good instrument or not. To do this, you need either to be a reasonably competent player yourself, or have a suitably close and communicative relationship with a competent player.
The instrument maker needs to be able to assess and correct any problems which arise, and these may not be apparent until the instrument is played. (Just for an easily understood example: you might make a mandolin which has a very nice tone when you pick the strings one at a time, but then find that the spacing of the strings is so close that no-one can play chords, or so far apart that no one can play comfortably).
Having determined the requirements for the instrument, then the maker has to have the technical ability to do the work necessary.
I know a maker who relies on another guy to play his instruments to dertermine quality. But I know a far greater number of players who rely on someone with technical skills to repair or improve their instruments.
I 'm somewhere in between - I make some, alter and repair some. But generally I only work on instruments I can play.
Dave
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
I expect most of us at some time or other have started a post, gone to another part of this site, or even another site, for information, and then return to the post to find that all that carefully honed argument has evaporated into cyberspace.
A tip (which I now always do): Before you leave your half-prepared post, do Select All and then Copy. You can then let it remain in memory or (which is safer) dump it in Wordpad or Notepad for the duration. When you return to your post, which may now be an empty box, retrieve your saved material, either from memory with Paste, or from Wordpad or Notepad. I always keep icons to Wordpad and Notepad on my desktop specifically for this sort of thing.
Trevor
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
And remember - don't take no cr*p from Microsoft - YOU are the network administrator.
Dave
# Posted on February 24th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
All the instrument maker's I know and have met are also really lovely musicians and really nice people. Patrick Olwell is a fine example. Not only is he an amazing person, but he's also an incredible flute player. And all this is reflected in his flutes. If I wanted to play pipes, Benedict Koehler would be the one for me. Instruments are such a personal thing that I need to have a deep respect and admiration for the maker as a person and musician. Of course I have to love how the instrument plays as well, but I believe one's persona and musical sensitivity is reflected in the instruments he makes.
Honestly, if someone isn't a very good musician and/ or I don't fancy his/her style of playing, I probably won't consider looking into his/her instruments.....I'm not saying a musician who isn't very good can't make a good instrument. Anything is possible....
The instrument makers I know are passionate about music and their own playing and it seems to reflect in their instruments.
Joyce
# Posted on February 25th 2004 by JMH
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
There two distinct arts, both requiring an excellent ear, instrument making and music making. There is another similarity, though. Neither full time instrument maker or musician usually gets rich.
# Posted on February 25th 2004 by bellows boy
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
The ones who are in it for the money don't get rich. The one's who are in it for other reasons can be rich beyond the dreams of avarice.
A bit like me really.
Dave
# Posted on February 25th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
David A - No, I was at LCF from 2000 to 2003 - I am now enrolled on an evening class, to keep access to the facilities, as I do not have my own workshop. I think things have changed a lot there in the last 10 years or so. It has recently undergone its third name change.
# Posted on February 25th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Instrument makers as musicians
I am a (female) harp maker from Munich Germany and have been playing the harp since 1992.
I give harp-lessons and even play in public.
Anne-Marie Bekkaye
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Anne-Marie Bekkaye