I've been playing Irish fiddle for a bit now and I'm starting to get a grip on ornamentation and phrasing. However, this has come from various sources and I'd like to find some respectable written material which discusses style, etc. in greater detail. I searching for a deeper understanding of ornamentation as well as a well written technical guide.
The closest thing I've found so far is, "Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing" by David Lyth (CCE). Any more suggestions?
Also, are there any Irish fiddle boards/ mailing lists?
Hi Kate,
You'll find that ornametation and style on Irish fiddle are as varied and idiosyncratic as the many hundreds of fiddlers playing the music. It's difficult to capture on the page all the diversity and nuance of the music as it's actually played. You might get something out of the Peter Cooper book (thru Mel Bay), and the Matt Cranitch book and cds. But these and nearly every other source focus primarily on one person's style and approach to the tunes, phrasing, bowing, etc. There's is nothing on Irish fiddle as detailed and analytical as Grey Larsen's book on Irish flute and tinwhistle.
Perhaps the best way to get a foundation in phrasing, bowing, and ornamentation is to listen to as many different players as possible. There aren't any shortcuts for internalizing the nuances.
That said, you can learn a lot about phrasing by experimenting with some basic ideas. First, think of phrasing as if you were singing the tune. Many teachers like their students to lilt a tune to learn it, rather than picking it up straight on the instrument. Partly because lilting helps you start phrasing the tune without wrestling with your technical limitations on the instrument. Cait Reed and others also suggest learning to play whistle or, even better, flute, to understand how the phrasing can tie into breathing.
Another notion of phrasing comes from treating the parts of a tune like parts of a dialogue or conversation. Imagine the first phrase being spoken by one person, and the second phrase coming as a response from another person. I've seen fiddlers actually turn their bodies from side to side to emphasize this duality.
You can also build your own taxonomy of ornaments, thinking in terms of bowhand techniques, fingering techniques, and combinations of the two. For example, a bowed or scratch triplet (e.g., (3BBB ) is a bowhand ornament, and a roll (e.g., ~B3 ) is a fingering ornament. But play different notes in a scratch triplet to make it chromatic (e.g., (3ccd e...) and your using both bowhand and fingering techniques.
Then you need to dissect a few tunes to understand how they all fit into the rhythmic structure. Nearly all ornaments are primarily rhythmic as they're used in Irish trad fiddling. Essentially, you're using them to tweak the timing of when you land on or leave certain beats. Of course, it's also possible to build a style around melodic variations, but this tends to be secondary, since this is dance music.
Paul McNevin's Irish fiddle tutor book is excelent. He describes some of the major regional fiddling styles in Ireland, and has quite a bit on ornamentation. The book comes with a recording, so you can hear him do the ornament, and have it explained in the book. I have a copy, and I really love it a lot. There is also a very interesting document on the web that talks about regional fiddle styles in Ireland: http://www.irishfiddle.com/article_on_styles1.html As Will told you (he's told me this too!), you can never listen enough. And watch people play too.
I really recomend Paul McNevin's book and recording; it is a great guide for anyone learning the fiddle, and it has a lot beside what I mentioned above.
Will, what are hammer-ons? I heard the term used in then old-timey music class I took, and thought it was purely an old-timey thing. I didn't understand what they were at the time either.
A hammer on is where you sound a note by hammering it on the fretboard with one of your left hand fingers. I know it is used in classical guitar, and bluegrass, but I don't really know anything about heavy metal. Never heard of it being used in fiddling.
Good point - you'd be able to use it on any kind of guitar... I saw it used more as a two-handed action.... (think Van Halen). You could do it with a fiddle, but not while bowing, and I agree - this isn't really a trad technique...
Methinks the kind of hammer-on Glenn is talking about goes with the flame-on technique too....
The way I've seen and heard hammer-ons used in Irish fiddling is a bit different than in other genres. It's a double hammer-on and sorta takes the place of a roll. The basic technique is to put one finger down on the string a half-step below the note you want to eventually end on, and then hammer down twice, rapidly, with the next finger, leaving it down to hold the higher note. It would look like this in abcs:
M: 9/8
L: 1/8
K: A dorian
unornamented: | EAA EAA c3 |
with hammer-on: | EAA EAA {BcB}c3 |
So the {BcB} part goes very fast, almost like a trill. The first B is heard clearly as a note, but it and the following {cB} go by as quickly as the cut notes in a typical roll. In this example, your index finger comes down on the first B just as it would to play that note normally, and then your middle finger would "hammer" twice like a short trill, ending planted on the c note. The effect is a "diddaleeee" sound, slightly delaying your arrival on the final note. You can also get this effect coming from an open string onto the index finger, either right next to the nut (f natural or B flat, for example), or up a half-step (f sharp, B natural, E, or the low A). I've heard it most often as a hammer-on from B to c and f sharp to g, and also going from middle to ring finger for the high a, d, and G.
Sean Smyth taught this technique in a workshop in Montana last summer, and I recognized it right away as a sound I've heard in many other Irish trad fiddler's playing. It mimics a sound common on the pipes and flute, and is clearly a traditional ornament, just not as widely used on fiddle as the scratch triplet or roll. Very effective to have in your bag of tricks.
Yep, scratch and bowed triplet mean the same thing. A chromatic triplet is one that hits different notes. Some feature three different notes | (3Bcd ...| and others just two notes | (3BBA ... | or | (3ccd ... |
Both very common in Irish trad fiddling and also tenor banjo. You'll also hear them on concertina and accordion.
P.S., I wouldn't use the "fancy" terms if we were sitting in the same room. I'd just say, "So you can do yer scratch triplets like this, or change notes as you go, like this," and demonstrate. Blame the medium here for the jargon.
My best advice to you love is to just listen to recordings of other musicians, and begin to identify some of the techniques that you can hear within their styling of a tune (in accordance to will's handy list of course). Then simply find a recording of a tune that you know fairly well, and begin to imitate some of the techniques the musician uses; eventually ingratiating them into your own playing of the tune. This is not a technique I would advocate for long-term use, (as then we encounter the phenomenon of 'copycat fiddling'), but you may find it a handy place to start; as an understanding of ornamentation if nothing else.
I am, of course, illiterate. I meant incorporating ornamentation into your playing of a tune, not 'ingratiating' it (if that is indeed a word). My apologies for a blonde moment.
Fiddle Ornamentation
Fiddle Ornamentation
I've been playing Irish fiddle for a bit now and I'm starting to get a grip on ornamentation and phrasing. However, this has come from various sources and I'd like to find some respectable written material which discusses style, etc. in greater detail. I searching for a deeper understanding of ornamentation as well as a well written technical guide.
The closest thing I've found so far is, "Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing" by David Lyth (CCE). Any more suggestions?
Also, are there any Irish fiddle boards/ mailing lists?
Kate
# Posted on February 15th 2004 by Kate_T
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Hi Kate,
You'll find that ornametation and style on Irish fiddle are as varied and idiosyncratic as the many hundreds of fiddlers playing the music. It's difficult to capture on the page all the diversity and nuance of the music as it's actually played. You might get something out of the Peter Cooper book (thru Mel Bay), and the Matt Cranitch book and cds. But these and nearly every other source focus primarily on one person's style and approach to the tunes, phrasing, bowing, etc. There's is nothing on Irish fiddle as detailed and analytical as Grey Larsen's book on Irish flute and tinwhistle.
Perhaps the best way to get a foundation in phrasing, bowing, and ornamentation is to listen to as many different players as possible. There aren't any shortcuts for internalizing the nuances.
That said, you can learn a lot about phrasing by experimenting with some basic ideas. First, think of phrasing as if you were singing the tune. Many teachers like their students to lilt a tune to learn it, rather than picking it up straight on the instrument. Partly because lilting helps you start phrasing the tune without wrestling with your technical limitations on the instrument. Cait Reed and others also suggest learning to play whistle or, even better, flute, to understand how the phrasing can tie into breathing.
Another notion of phrasing comes from treating the parts of a tune like parts of a dialogue or conversation. Imagine the first phrase being spoken by one person, and the second phrase coming as a response from another person. I've seen fiddlers actually turn their bodies from side to side to emphasize this duality.
You can also build your own taxonomy of ornaments, thinking in terms of bowhand techniques, fingering techniques, and combinations of the two. For example, a bowed or scratch triplet (e.g., (3BBB ) is a bowhand ornament, and a roll (e.g., ~B3 ) is a fingering ornament. But play different notes in a scratch triplet to make it chromatic (e.g., (3ccd e...) and your using both bowhand and fingering techniques.
I tend to think of the basic ornaments this way:
Bowhand:
scratch triplets
slurs
dynamics
doublestops
shuffle patterns
Fingering:
cut notes
rolls
hammer-ons
slides
vibrato
Combinations:
chromatic scratch triplets
fingered doublestops
Then you need to dissect a few tunes to understand how they all fit into the rhythmic structure. Nearly all ornaments are primarily rhythmic as they're used in Irish trad fiddling. Essentially, you're using them to tweak the timing of when you land on or leave certain beats. Of course, it's also possible to build a style around melodic variations, but this tends to be secondary, since this is dance music.
# Posted on February 15th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Paul McNevin's Irish fiddle tutor book is excelent. He describes some of the major regional fiddling styles in Ireland, and has quite a bit on ornamentation. The book comes with a recording, so you can hear him do the ornament, and have it explained in the book. I have a copy, and I really love it a lot. There is also a very interesting document on the web that talks about regional fiddle styles in Ireland: http://www.irishfiddle.com/article_on_styles1.html As Will told you (he's told me this too!), you can never listen enough. And watch people play too.
I really recomend Paul McNevin's book and recording; it is a great guide for anyone learning the fiddle, and it has a lot beside what I mentioned above.
-Max
# Posted on February 15th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Will, what are hammer-ons? I heard the term used in then old-timey music class I took, and thought it was purely an old-timey thing. I didn't understand what they were at the time either.
# Posted on February 15th 2004 by Andee
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Hammer-ons are a heavy-metal guitar technique!! Woo-hoo! Now that's fiddling
# Posted on February 16th 2004 by glenn
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
A hammer on is where you sound a note by hammering it on the fretboard with one of your left hand fingers. I know it is used in classical guitar, and bluegrass, but I don't really know anything about heavy metal. Never heard of it being used in fiddling.
-Max
# Posted on February 16th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Good point - you'd be able to use it on any kind of guitar... I saw it used more as a two-handed action.... (think Van Halen). You could do it with a fiddle, but not while bowing, and I agree - this isn't really a trad technique...
# Posted on February 16th 2004 by glenn
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Methinks the kind of hammer-on Glenn is talking about goes with the flame-on technique too....
The way I've seen and heard hammer-ons used in Irish fiddling is a bit different than in other genres. It's a double hammer-on and sorta takes the place of a roll. The basic technique is to put one finger down on the string a half-step below the note you want to eventually end on, and then hammer down twice, rapidly, with the next finger, leaving it down to hold the higher note. It would look like this in abcs:
M: 9/8
L: 1/8
K: A dorian
unornamented: | EAA EAA c3 |
with hammer-on: | EAA EAA {BcB}c3 |
So the {BcB} part goes very fast, almost like a trill. The first B is heard clearly as a note, but it and the following {cB} go by as quickly as the cut notes in a typical roll. In this example, your index finger comes down on the first B just as it would to play that note normally, and then your middle finger would "hammer" twice like a short trill, ending planted on the c note. The effect is a "diddaleeee" sound, slightly delaying your arrival on the final note. You can also get this effect coming from an open string onto the index finger, either right next to the nut (f natural or B flat, for example), or up a half-step (f sharp, B natural, E, or the low A). I've heard it most often as a hammer-on from B to c and f sharp to g, and also going from middle to ring finger for the high a, d, and G.
Sean Smyth taught this technique in a workshop in Montana last summer, and I recognized it right away as a sound I've heard in many other Irish trad fiddler's playing. It mimics a sound common on the pipes and flute, and is clearly a traditional ornament, just not as widely used on fiddle as the scratch triplet or roll. Very effective to have in your bag of tricks.
# Posted on February 16th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Thanks for the explanation! That makes sense.
# Posted on February 16th 2004 by glenn
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
What's a scratch triplet? Or a chromatic scratch triplet? Fancy stuff, that is. I learned the term bowed triplet. Is that the same thing?
# Posted on February 16th 2004 by Emmaline
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Yep, scratch and bowed triplet mean the same thing. A chromatic triplet is one that hits different notes. Some feature three different notes | (3Bcd ...| and others just two notes | (3BBA ... | or | (3ccd ... |
Both very common in Irish trad fiddling and also tenor banjo. You'll also hear them on concertina and accordion.
# Posted on February 16th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
P.S., I wouldn't use the "fancy" terms if we were sitting in the same room. I'd just say, "So you can do yer scratch triplets like this, or change notes as you go, like this," and demonstrate. Blame the medium here for the jargon.
# Posted on February 16th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
My best advice to you love is to just listen to recordings of other musicians, and begin to identify some of the techniques that you can hear within their styling of a tune (in accordance to will's handy list of course). Then simply find a recording of a tune that you know fairly well, and begin to imitate some of the techniques the musician uses; eventually ingratiating them into your own playing of the tune. This is not a technique I would advocate for long-term use, (as then we encounter the phenomenon of 'copycat fiddling'), but you may find it a handy place to start; as an understanding of ornamentation if nothing else.
# Posted on February 17th 2004 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
I am, of course, illiterate. I meant incorporating ornamentation into your playing of a tune, not 'ingratiating' it (if that is indeed a word). My apologies for a blonde moment.
# Posted on February 17th 2004 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
I have this mental movie of someone quickly pulling rolls off on my fiddle while I'm in the middle of a tune...
# Posted on February 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Heh. You've never heard my rolls...I could use some armedrollery~! hehehe
# Posted on February 17th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
.......armedrollery? Are we talking plagarism, or a metaphorical hard-backed animal?
# Posted on February 18th 2004 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Lol, they are truly amazing, yet the mind boggles as to the function of the armadillo skin. I wonder what they would sound like in a session?.....
# Posted on February 18th 2004 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
Well, I'd imagine armedroll, wouldn't you?
# Posted on February 18th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
ah, that was a fell night indeed, the Eve Of The Crossing of The A String. Many a stout-hearted warrior was lost on that day...
# Posted on February 18th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Fiddle Ornamentation
I have a rickety rackety bridge, bloody nuisance aren't they
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by never-trust-a-violinist