Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
I recently wrote an article on this topic. Not sure if what I came up with is helpful or even of interest. I attempted to convey my take on this subject combined with info I gleaned from research, including previous discussions on this site about developing personal style. If you can please take a look and leave a comment, critique or feedback on the article page. Cheers. Here's a link: http://www.sixwatergrog.com/2012/02/developing-invididual-style-within-folk.html
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Isn't there room for everybody? Let them at it, if that's what s/he wants to think. Sure, they might get a nasty land if they arrive in your session, but that's very unlikely..
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Just read the article on the link and thought it was ok - can't see why it's attacting such negative comments (above). I came away thinking I must find out what Jamaican mento music is, since I haven't heard any before. So I have got at least one new thing out of it which to me justifies to effort of reading it. Chill people....
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
But personally, I think there is an irony about individual style. To get an individual style that you like, you have to take influence from those that you desire to be like, knowing that you could never be them.
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Wow. Just checked back to see if there were any comments (is there a way to subscribe so you'll be notified?). When I write an article like this my intent is to be helpful & entertaining, but I also write about things that I want to learn more about myself so my point is also always to learn in the process! Writing about it helps solidify the concepts in my mind so that I can better implement them.
I've read a lot of negative stereotypes about tenor banjo on this board, but I've actually never experienced them in real life, and I like to think that I have the self-awareness to not be one of "those people". I think restraint, personality, sense of taste and understanding of etiquette has a lot to do with acceptance at sessions. I exclusively play tenor banjo at Irish sessions and old-time jams and have always been invited back and encouraged to keep at it. Of course I keep a t-shirt stuffed into the back of the rim and play quietly most of the time. I never played any instruments (no guitar, piano, nothing) or listened to much trad until getting a tenor banjo as an adult in my 30's. The fact that I'm still in my 30's means I'm still kind new at this whole thing so I'm kinda learning as I go and when I feel like I've hit upon a concept I like to share it. I also hear a lot about "can't do this and can't do that on tenor banjo" or "that wouldn't be acceptable at my session" and so on. But honestly any jam that is not accepting isn't a jam in my opinion...and what you're imagining wouldn't be acceptable is probably different from what is happening in actuality. Perhaps because I am respectful of the tradition but not beholden to it allows for the freedom to see the similarities between music styles and not the differences. I may speak with an American accent and you may have a British one, but we can still communicate if we so choose! The same applies to music!
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
And oh yes Mento is awesome! I'm going to Jamaica in April to hopefully experience it and study it more. I've only been aware of it since last October, but it has opened up a whole new world of music that is directly applicable to my instrument that I didn't even know existed! It's sort of like Jamaica's version of trad...although it has been diluted (kept alive???) in recent decades by the tourist industry.
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
I haven't read the article, but there's some terminology I wish to disabuse you of: Sessions are not jams. Or to put it another way, the terms "jam session" and "session" are not synonomous. The hallmark of a jam is improvisation, which does not exist in ITM beyond the individual's use of ornaments and variations. The hallmark of a session is a group sounding like they have played together for years even if they haven't. This results from a mutual understanding of the music - from a shared repertoire of tunes to a good knowledge of style and flow based on how the members of a particular session play. One listens for awhile to pick that up before launching in. Jams feature individuality; sessions - not so much beyond simple excellence in playing.
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
"But honestly any jam that is not accepting isn't a jam in my opinion...
You're right, it's not. A jam may (or may not, I don't know as I don't go to them) see itself as a session, but not every session sees itself as a jam.
From my limited and possibly made up knowledge of what I think happens at old time jams, it is well within the boundaries of social acceptability to vamp along to tunes you don't know with chords on your fiddle or banjo. At any decent Irish session, this is not on. Doesn't stop people from trying occasionally, but it usually fails miserably. Any player who knows the tunes and the music well enough to "vamp" is probably playing the damned tunes and knows not to.
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
sixwatergrog, you've not been into traditional Irish music for very long, your knowledge and experience of it is very limited. There's no problem with this, of course. Everyone starts somewhere.
However, the title of your thread is at best confusing, and at worst, extraordinarily arrogant.
Let's say, for the benefit of doubt, what you actually meant was: "Developing Individual Styles within Folk Traditions". I read your ramblings and really, I think this is probably what you meant. You ramble on about various different traditions and give a brief and glib explanation of what you might do in each style, drawing mainly from what you perceive to be some form of homogonised similarities between them.
What I hope you didn't mean, for the sake of posting on this website, was: "Developing one's individual style within the tradition of Irish music." If you did mean this, or even anything anywhere near close to this, you need to log off now.
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
damn llig I've tried to write my impressions and keep deleting it as non-productive and harsh—your measured analysis is pretty much what I've been struggling with and spot on
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
"I haven't read the article, but there's some terminology I wish to disabuse you of: Sessions are not jams. Or to put it another way, the terms "jam session" and "session" are not synonomous. The hallmark of a jam is improvisation, which does not exist in ITM beyond the individual's use of ornaments and variations. The hallmark of a session is a group sounding like they have played together for years even if they haven't. This results from a mutual understanding of the music - from a shared repertoire of tunes to a good knowledge of style and flow based on how the members of a particular session play. One listens for awhile to pick that up before launching in. Jams feature individuality; sessions - not so much beyond simple excellence in playing."
To quote the illustrious Llig, "Of for fecks sake.." I will grant that I know of no ITM players who call sessions jams, but to characterize jams as being based on improvisation just shows...well a lack of knowledge. Bluegrass jams can get that way. Old Timey Jams never do in my experience. And I play in lots of "jams" where improvisation is not the key and playing together with the majority of the players playing melody and trying to fit together is the basis (sounds a bit like a session doesn't it?).
If you don't like the article fine, but don't display your ignorance this way.
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
So, the OP says. "In fact, to play with other folk musicians you must be sympathetic to what they are doing and keep your variations and ornamentation within the confines of the tune, rhythm and implied chords. " He later goes on to say you have to learn by listening and picking things up "by osmosis." I've seen posts by most of the complainers on this topic championing exactly those two things. Somebody explain why, beyond the usual cantankerousness that exists here, the OP's bery brief and general article engendered such wrath. Maybe there's a reason, but I can't see it. Surely the use of "folk" and possible confusion of the terms jam (Old-Timey would use it) and session are insufficient reason for all this vitriol.
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Seems like some folks missed the disclaimer right up front: "I recently wrote an article on this topic. Not sure if what I came up with is helpful or even of interest."
Like so much "journalism" these days.
sixwatergrog could've simply asked questions. Instead he went trolling with a clueless, smug "article" complete with clip art. I may as well post my pithy insights on the Higgs Boson over at www.thecollider.org.
At least he was honest here: "Not sure if what I came up with is helpful or even of interest." My honest reply: Nope.
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Are there equivalent old timey or mento discussion boards out there where you can post the original link to the article?
It could be interesting for you to see the similarities and differences in reactions depending upon the musical style.
After reading your article, which did make me curious about mento, I read some of the comments, which were, not to my surprise, instantaneously dismissive. In fact, this was the most predictable thing to me about your discussion posting. I really chuckled when I read this: "I didn't read the article, but...".
On this forum, it has become apparent to me over a number of years, any newcomer should be aware that any variation of the word "jam" is anathema. (I propose referring to it as "the j-word".) There are a few other words or phrases, that are dangerous to use, except of course, if you are attempting a wind-up, which is another word with a particular usage on this website.
By the way, I like this phrase in your details..
"With the right combinations of ... 12 notes you can approximate almost any melody known to man".
Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
I recently wrote an article on this topic. Not sure if what I came up with is helpful or even of interest. I attempted to convey my take on this subject combined with info I gleaned from research, including previous discussions on this site about developing personal style. If you can please take a look and leave a comment, critique or feedback on the article page. Cheers. Here's a link:
http://www.sixwatergrog.com/2012/02/developing-invididual-style-within-folk.html
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by sixwatergrog
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Sorry, I couldn't get passed this:
"Picking up a tune in the moment can be as basic as playing an approximation of it."
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by ...
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
You made it that far, Michael? I stopped after the second sentence.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by MacCruiskeen
"In my case I primarily want to be an old-time jammer and Irish session player"
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
One is curious as to why you wrote this article.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by bazouki dave
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
I have some sympathy here. You're like a little lost lamb who's wandered into the wolf den and asked for directions back to the sheep fold...
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by Dragut Reis
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Either that, or you are a very meticulous and sly troll, in which case I salute you sir.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by Dragut Reis
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Isn't there room for everybody? Let them at it, if that's what s/he wants to think. Sure, they might get a nasty land if they arrive in your session, but that's very unlikely..
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by the wounded hussar
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Yes, what is this article for? I've read some of it, but without knowing it's purpose, or reason, i felt like I was wasting my time reading it.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Just read the article on the link and thought it was ok - can't see why it's attacting such negative comments (above). I came away thinking I must find out what Jamaican mento music is, since I haven't heard any before. So I have got at least one new thing out of it which to me justifies to effort of reading it. Chill people....
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by Eachann mac Bodach
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
But personally, I think there is an irony about individual style. To get an individual style that you like, you have to take influence from those that you desire to be like, knowing that you could never be them.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
no ... to get an individual style you like, you have to take influence from those that you know that you never want to be.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by ...
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Sarcasm llig? It's always hard to tell through text lol
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
No, not sarcasm.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by ...
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
It's about choosing what to disregard.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by Dragut Reis
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
That's an interesting way to put things. I think I like it
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
I found the article of interest - I'd never heard of Mento before.
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Wow. Just checked back to see if there were any comments (is there a way to subscribe so you'll be notified?). When I write an article like this my intent is to be helpful & entertaining, but I also write about things that I want to learn more about myself so my point is also always to learn in the process! Writing about it helps solidify the concepts in my mind so that I can better implement them.
I've read a lot of negative stereotypes about tenor banjo on this board, but I've actually never experienced them in real life, and I like to think that I have the self-awareness to not be one of "those people". I think restraint, personality, sense of taste and understanding of etiquette has a lot to do with acceptance at sessions. I exclusively play tenor banjo at Irish sessions and old-time jams and have always been invited back and encouraged to keep at it. Of course I keep a t-shirt stuffed into the back of the rim and play quietly most of the time. I never played any instruments (no guitar, piano, nothing) or listened to much trad until getting a tenor banjo as an adult in my 30's. The fact that I'm still in my 30's means I'm still kind new at this whole thing so I'm kinda learning as I go and when I feel like I've hit upon a concept I like to share it. I also hear a lot about "can't do this and can't do that on tenor banjo" or "that wouldn't be acceptable at my session" and so on. But honestly any jam that is not accepting isn't a jam in my opinion...and what you're imagining wouldn't be acceptable is probably different from what is happening in actuality. Perhaps because I am respectful of the tradition but not beholden to it allows for the freedom to see the similarities between music styles and not the differences. I may speak with an American accent and you may have a British one, but we can still communicate if we so choose! The same applies to music!
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by sixwatergrog
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
And oh yes Mento is awesome! I'm going to Jamaica in April to hopefully experience it and study it more. I've only been aware of it since last October, but it has opened up a whole new world of music that is directly applicable to my instrument that I didn't even know existed! It's sort of like Jamaica's version of trad...although it has been diluted (kept alive???) in recent decades by the tourist industry.
If anyone's interested I wrote about Mento here:
http://www.sixwatergrog.com/2011/11/4-string-banjo-in-jamaican-mento.html
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by sixwatergrog
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
I hadn't heard of mento before either, and it seems pretty interesting. Wacky fiddle technique in this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqVW9Sx31-M
# Posted on February 10th 2012 by Jack Campin
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
You sound mento, pal.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Rudall the time
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Just trying to be helpful, but typos in headlines tend to undermine credibility. You've got:
Developing Invididual Style Within the Folk Tradition
Sorry if that sounds nitpickish, but it's an easy fix. Now I'm going back to read the article...
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by fidkid
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Thanks for catching the type-O! I see that as immensely helpful, not nitpicky. I've corrected it. Cheers.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by sixwatergrog
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Some things in this thread put me in mind of treatises on court etiquette written at the time of Elizabeth I.
However, I like to think that the folk tradition stops short of demanding gallantry from its adherents.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by nicholas
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
I haven't read the article, but there's some terminology I wish to disabuse you of: Sessions are not jams. Or to put it another way, the terms "jam session" and "session" are not synonomous. The hallmark of a jam is improvisation, which does not exist in ITM beyond the individual's use of ornaments and variations. The hallmark of a session is a group sounding like they have played together for years even if they haven't. This results from a mutual understanding of the music - from a shared repertoire of tunes to a good knowledge of style and flow based on how the members of a particular session play. One listens for awhile to pick that up before launching in. Jams feature individuality; sessions - not so much beyond simple excellence in playing.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Ailin
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
"But honestly any jam that is not accepting isn't a jam in my opinion...
You're right, it's not. A jam may (or may not, I don't know as I don't go to them) see itself as a session, but not every session sees itself as a jam.
From my limited and possibly made up knowledge of what I think happens at old time jams, it is well within the boundaries of social acceptability to vamp along to tunes you don't know with chords on your fiddle or banjo. At any decent Irish session, this is not on. Doesn't stop people from trying occasionally, but it usually fails miserably. Any player who knows the tunes and the music well enough to "vamp" is probably playing the damned tunes and knows not to.
BTW, I also have an American accent.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
sixwatergrog, you've not been into traditional Irish music for very long, your knowledge and experience of it is very limited. There's no problem with this, of course. Everyone starts somewhere.
However, the title of your thread is at best confusing, and at worst, extraordinarily arrogant.
Let's say, for the benefit of doubt, what you actually meant was: "Developing Individual Styles within Folk Traditions". I read your ramblings and really, I think this is probably what you meant. You ramble on about various different traditions and give a brief and glib explanation of what you might do in each style, drawing mainly from what you perceive to be some form of homogonised similarities between them.
What I hope you didn't mean, for the sake of posting on this website, was: "Developing one's individual style within the tradition of Irish music." If you did mean this, or even anything anywhere near close to this, you need to log off now.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by ...
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
damn llig I've tried to write my impressions and keep deleting it as non-productive and harsh—your measured analysis is pretty much what I've been struggling with and spot on
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by fidkid
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
who are you and what have you done to our llig?
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by fidkid
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
ha ha, you should have seen the 50 words I deleted and and replace with "you need to log off now."
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by ...
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
... and replaced with ...
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by ...
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
"I haven't read the article, but there's some terminology I wish to disabuse you of: Sessions are not jams. Or to put it another way, the terms "jam session" and "session" are not synonomous. The hallmark of a jam is improvisation, which does not exist in ITM beyond the individual's use of ornaments and variations. The hallmark of a session is a group sounding like they have played together for years even if they haven't. This results from a mutual understanding of the music - from a shared repertoire of tunes to a good knowledge of style and flow based on how the members of a particular session play. One listens for awhile to pick that up before launching in. Jams feature individuality; sessions - not so much beyond simple excellence in playing."
To quote the illustrious Llig, "Of for fecks sake.." I will grant that I know of no ITM players who call sessions jams, but to characterize jams as being based on improvisation just shows...well a lack of knowledge. Bluegrass jams can get that way. Old Timey Jams never do in my experience. And I play in lots of "jams" where improvisation is not the key and playing together with the majority of the players playing melody and trying to fit together is the basis (sounds a bit like a session doesn't it?).
If you don't like the article fine, but don't display your ignorance this way.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by cboody
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
So, the OP says. "In fact, to play with other folk musicians you must be sympathetic to what they are doing and keep your variations and ornamentation within the confines of the tune, rhythm and implied chords. " He later goes on to say you have to learn by listening and picking things up "by osmosis." I've seen posts by most of the complainers on this topic championing exactly those two things. Somebody explain why, beyond the usual cantankerousness that exists here, the OP's bery brief and general article engendered such wrath. Maybe there's a reason, but I can't see it. Surely the use of "folk" and possible confusion of the terms jam (Old-Timey would use it) and session are insufficient reason for all this vitriol.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by cboody
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Seems like some folks missed the disclaimer right up front: "I recently wrote an article on this topic. Not sure if what I came up with is helpful or even of interest."
Like so much "journalism" these days.
sixwatergrog could've simply asked questions. Instead he went trolling with a clueless, smug "article" complete with clip art. I may as well post my pithy insights on the Higgs Boson over at www.thecollider.org.
At least he was honest here: "Not sure if what I came up with is helpful or even of interest." My honest reply: Nope.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
It was a blog post. Not an "article."
sheesh.
I even have a blogspot. (cooking) So anyone can do it. And say what they want.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Wyogal
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
"I hadn't heard of mento before either, and it seems pretty interesting."
You've probably heard it before though, Jack.
Listen to the snippet here:
http://www.folkways.si.edu/TrackDetails.aspx?itemid=21849
Track 105
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Weejie
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=62MxKzY5r_o
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Weejie
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Are there equivalent old timey or mento discussion boards out there where you can post the original link to the article?
It could be interesting for you to see the similarities and differences in reactions depending upon the musical style.
After reading your article, which did make me curious about mento, I read some of the comments, which were, not to my surprise, instantaneously dismissive. In fact, this was the most predictable thing to me about your discussion posting. I really chuckled when I read this: "I didn't read the article, but...".
On this forum, it has become apparent to me over a number of years, any newcomer should be aware that any variation of the word "jam" is anathema. (I propose referring to it as "the j-word".) There are a few other words or phrases, that are dangerous to use, except of course, if you are attempting a wind-up, which is another word with a particular usage on this website.
By the way, I like this phrase in your details..
"With the right combinations of ... 12 notes you can approximate almost any melody known to man".
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by halfwaythere
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
"....except of course for those musical traditions that use quarter-tone systems....".
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Guernsey Pete
"....except of course for those musical traditions that use quarter-tone systems....".
like all those ITM players of old who couldn't play in tune.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
he said approximate
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Earl Cameron
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
wyogal, the OP called it an "article." An overstatement, yes? That was my point.
# Posted on February 11th 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Developing Individual Style within the Folk Tradition
Yaah, fahy never improvises ya stupid sh*tes
# Posted on February 13th 2012 by kook