Might be just a problem of mine, as, due to similarity of many tunes and, more, to different renditions and ways of playing them, at session often i can tell what the tune being played is when it's too late to join as, many times ,(with the exception of the most common) i can ricognize it when it is close to its end. Wouldn't be better if the one starting a set, before getting into it at thespeed of light, told everybody what tunes are going to be played? do you have the same difficulties? or you ricognize a tune, in spite of the style of playing it, from the first few notes?
Like so many other things here, it all depends on the session.
Despite what many people here will claim, there is not a universal format or one which is necessarily more correct than another. We may all have our own preferences but the way things are done vary due to locality, pub to pub, night to night, and sometimes even during a single session as different players come and go.
Anyway, re your question.
In many sessions, it is the practice to announce the tunes in a set or they might say something like "We'll play the such and such set". Or they might just shout out the keys.
Sometimes, they might play the first bar or two of each tune to make sure enough players know the tunes before kicking off but there are any number of possibilities.
However, sometimes "wall to wall" tunes can be fun and, generally, there is usually quite a few which everyone knows in this sort of situation.
Sometimes the set-starter doesn't know what tune is coming next until they start it. It can make life difficult for the other players, especially the less experienced ones, but it is all part of the spontaneous nature of a session. You need remember also that many players don't know the names of most of the tunes they play, so it's just "the one that goes like this".
But, as John J. says, not all sessions are the same; among some musicians, it is the norm to discuss which tunes to play and it might even be considered a faux-pas to start a tune unannounced.
Isn't the "old method" just a few friends getting together to play or possibly meeting up with visiting of different musicians?
In these circumstances, there was obviously a lot of "Do you know such and such?" or "Do you fancy doing.... etc?"
There still is a lot of this approach among older players and in more "relaxed" sessions?
I'm not advocating sheet music or conductors, of course, even although it's nice if a few tips can be passed on and I've seen copies of the dots handed to players for *future*(learn at home) reference by even some of the top musicians over the years.
As I say, it all depends on the session and the type of atmosphere which seems to be favoured at the time.
If you don't recognise the tunes it means one of 2 things: 1) you don't know the tunes well enough to join in, or 2) they don't play well enough to get the tune out in recognisable form. Neither scenario is good for a coherent session.
I only know one person who discusses what they are going to play before starting and I always find it really strange, but then somehow reassuring.
No one else knows the tune names and often as mentioned, don't really have a clue what they are actually going to play next until the last 4 bars of the current tune when you have to guess by intuition what they are going to launch into. I like surprises and it feels less contrived.
There's also that, "Ooh, play that thing you did the other week," moment too.
Anyhoo, going back to original post, if you're playing on your own a lot it is v. hard to play with others or even recognise a tune sometimes and you have my sympathy. You know you know it but you lack the confidence to just jump in.
It's not even always a case of not knowing a tune.
Sometimes, you still have to "miss out" the first time or drop out if it's an unusual setting.
However, most of the very well known tunes usually present few surprises particularly if you are fairly familiar with a particular session and/or its players.
If you have a problem with there being too many different ways of playing tunes, knowing the names prior to them being started will make matters worse. You'll jump in playing your way and there's not a cat in hell's chance of it matching.
Your problem (with the caveat, of course, that it's not the Doctor's "they don't play well enough to get the tune out in recognisable form) is that you can't hear. Leave the instrument at home until you learn to.
Sometimes I try to give people a break and let them know what I'm going to play. What usually happens is, I say "let's play Sporting Paddy and The Wind that Shakes the Barley and that other one" and someone doesn't know the last one, so I play them a bit of it, and another person says, "oh, yeah, that one" and starts in playing it, thinking I was trying to start it, and then we're off in a different set.
So usually I just assume people will be able to figure it out, and if someone picks it up the last time through I'll give it a few more, just so they can get a chance to play, and maybe to get it more firmly in their head.
I know "The Caledonian Society of London". Played it innumerable times. On many of which I have asked "what was that one?" But I've never managed to remember the name that goes with the tune, or the tune associated with the name. So the announcement wouldn't do me a lot of good (except I'd know it was a pipe tune and hence which instruments would work for it).
I find that only a small number of players will know tunes by name, most of us don't have a clue. So if someone says "well do the boy in the boat, Paddy Fahey's and the Man of the house, They'll still have a bar or two played before the orchestra gets into gear. Funny thing is the second tune always seems much easier to pick up on. My advice fiddlemax would be to persevere, don't leave it at home, it will come in time.
Something else I've noticed, is that at some sessions, the tunes are played through only twice in a set. If the person who leads off is listening to what is going on in the room, and notices that others are having trouble joining in, they might be thoughtful enough to continue the tune, maybe playing each one four times or more, giving everyone a chance to pick up on the tunes. It's a great way to learn new tunes for someone quick on the uptake as well.
After a while, whether you think you know it or not, you can just give the tunes a try. Often, your fingers will remember what your brain will not. However, if you don't know it, for the sake of others, stop before you become a noodler.
Yes there is. Quiet noodling leads to louder noodling.
Dr. Dow has the diagnosis spot on.
Sounds to me that the session has a serious phrasing problem.
Often, even if somebody says what tunes they're going to play in a set, tend to forget what's coming next because I'm enjoying playing the first tune so much. This could go hand-in-hand with my general terrible memory for tune names. But, naming tunes in a set can be good for a beginners' session. Gets your brain used to thinking about how to make transitions and a flavor for putting tunes into sets!
To reiterate: if the tunes are in fact unidentifiable because of the way they are being phrased, you need to go to a different session. If the tunes seem unidentifiable because you can't hear their more subtle elements, you need to become a better listener/player.
Sometimes all of us have wee brain malfunctions where you hear a tune and think, "That sounds vaguely familiar. Wonder what that is." The third time through, you realize it's something you've played 37829344 times. If that happens on almost every set, it's a bigger problem.
I can think of no way to measure how much your ilttle riffs and false starts are throwing your fellow musicians off, or distracting from others' enjoyment. Unless, of course, you ask them between tunes. And in that case, why not ask them how the tune goes, and go home and practice?
In any event, I for one would rather err on the side of courtesy -
I prefer to use the snippet method most of the time even though there is a certain amount of resistance to it. I play a snippet of each tune so the people who are interested know what I intend to add on. This allows other players a chance to think about the change and be on board from the start, and if there's backup, they have an idea what's coming as well. I didn't invent this method; I observed it on trips to Ireland and recognized the advantages. Some people prefer to "wing it" and come up with medley's spontaneously, and I have no problem with that... it's all good. I just wish some of the other players who complain about the snippet method were as open to other ideas as I am to theirs.
If I understand "snippet", or perhaps "riff", then I will say that having another musician give me the symptoms of the tune before we kick off is a courtesy I always appreciate.
It frequently saves time on getting down to business, even though I will likely listen for a few bars to make sure that I think I am on the same page.
The issue for me is still listening, even once we have started - and I am still inclined to abandon ship if I believe I am making a mess of things.
Getting onboard from the start (of each & every tune in a set) can be a good thing; at times. So, the snippet has it's purpose. Other times someone will spontaneously, & at the last second, go with something other than what is expected. This can be a trainwreck; & I'm sure it often is. Or it is also possible, if enough players are listening, there's only a bit of a bumpy ride, ears begin to perk up, & the next thing you know the session is playing a grand set.
Sometimes I recognize a tune and absolutely know before I start in that I can play it. Recently, though, I launched into a tune, only to realize that I could indeed play it, but on a different instrument than the one I was currently using, and crashed and burned!
I know what you mean, Al, I will either flail away unaware I'm playing it on the instrument I never worked it out on and wondering why it's so familiar yet so awkward, or amaze myself afterwards when I realize what I just did. Someday I swear I'll have all the tunes on both instruments... well, maybe if I never had to sleep.
guessing tunes at session
guessing tunes at session
Might be just a problem of mine, as, due to similarity of many tunes and, more, to different renditions and ways of playing them, at session often i can tell what the tune being played is when it's too late to join as, many times ,(with the exception of the most common) i can ricognize it when it is close to its end. Wouldn't be better if the one starting a set, before getting into it at thespeed of light, told everybody what tunes are going to be played? do you have the same difficulties? or you ricognize a tune, in spite of the style of playing it, from the first few notes?
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by fiddlemax
Re: guessing tunes at session
Like so many other things here, it all depends on the session.
Despite what many people here will claim, there is not a universal format or one which is necessarily more correct than another. We may all have our own preferences but the way things are done vary due to locality, pub to pub, night to night, and sometimes even during a single session as different players come and go.
Anyway, re your question.
In many sessions, it is the practice to announce the tunes in a set or they might say something like "We'll play the such and such set". Or they might just shout out the keys.
Sometimes, they might play the first bar or two of each tune to make sure enough players know the tunes before kicking off but there are any number of possibilities.
However, sometimes "wall to wall" tunes can be fun and, generally, there is usually quite a few which everyone knows in this sort of situation.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Johnny Jay
Re: guessing tunes at session
"Wouldn't be better if the one starting a set, before getting into it at thespeed of light, told everybody what tunes are going to be played?"
It might be simpler, but "better" is a relative term.
Things might also be simpler with sheet music and a conductor to keep everyone on tempo and announce the tune changes.
I think I prefer the "old" method, of getting to know the tunes and listening to the other players so I can blend.
It takes time, lots of time, to master, and even then you will only be "in the know" at the sessions which play the same selection of tunes.
Fun, eh?
In bocca al lupo!
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Piece
Re: guessing tunes at session
Sometimes the set-starter doesn't know what tune is coming next until they start it. It can make life difficult for the other players, especially the less experienced ones, but it is all part of the spontaneous nature of a session. You need remember also that many players don't know the names of most of the tunes they play, so it's just "the one that goes like this".
But, as John J. says, not all sessions are the same; among some musicians, it is the norm to discuss which tunes to play and it might even be considered a faux-pas to start a tune unannounced.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: guessing tunes at session
"I think I prefer the "old" method"
Isn't the "old method" just a few friends getting together to play or possibly meeting up with visiting of different musicians?
In these circumstances, there was obviously a lot of "Do you know such and such?" or "Do you fancy doing.... etc?"
There still is a lot of this approach among older players and in more "relaxed" sessions?
I'm not advocating sheet music or conductors, of course, even although it's nice if a few tips can be passed on and I've seen copies of the dots handed to players for *future*(learn at home) reference by even some of the top musicians over the years.
As I say, it all depends on the session and the type of atmosphere which seems to be favoured at the time.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Johnny Jay
Re: guessing tunes at session
If you don't recognise the tunes it means one of 2 things: 1) you don't know the tunes well enough to join in, or 2) they don't play well enough to get the tune out in recognisable form. Neither scenario is good for a coherent session.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Dr. Dow
Re: guessing tunes at session
I only know one person who discusses what they are going to play before starting and I always find it really strange, but then somehow reassuring.
No one else knows the tune names and often as mentioned, don't really have a clue what they are actually going to play next until the last 4 bars of the current tune when you have to guess by intuition what they are going to launch into. I like surprises and it feels less contrived.
There's also that, "Ooh, play that thing you did the other week," moment too.
Anyhoo, going back to original post, if you're playing on your own a lot it is v. hard to play with others or even recognise a tune sometimes and you have my sympathy. You know you know it but you lack the confidence to just jump in.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by InfernalTootler
Re: guessing tunes at session
It's not even always a case of not knowing a tune.
Sometimes, you still have to "miss out" the first time or drop out if it's an unusual setting.
However, most of the very well known tunes usually present few surprises particularly if you are fairly familiar with a particular session and/or its players.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Johnny Jay
Re: guessing tunes at session
If you have a problem with there being too many different ways of playing tunes, knowing the names prior to them being started will make matters worse. You'll jump in playing your way and there's not a cat in hell's chance of it matching.
Your problem (with the caveat, of course, that it's not the Doctor's "they don't play well enough to get the tune out in recognisable form) is that you can't hear. Leave the instrument at home until you learn to.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by ...
Re: guessing tunes at session
Sometimes I try to give people a break and let them know what I'm going to play. What usually happens is, I say "let's play Sporting Paddy and The Wind that Shakes the Barley and that other one" and someone doesn't know the last one, so I play them a bit of it, and another person says, "oh, yeah, that one" and starts in playing it, thinking I was trying to start it, and then we're off in a different set.
So usually I just assume people will be able to figure it out, and if someone picks it up the last time through I'll give it a few more, just so they can get a chance to play, and maybe to get it more firmly in their head.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: guessing tunes at session
I know "The Caledonian Society of London". Played it innumerable times. On many of which I have asked "what was that one?" But I've never managed to remember the name that goes with the tune, or the tune associated with the name. So the announcement wouldn't do me a lot of good (except I'd know it was a pipe tune and hence which instruments would work for it).
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Jack Campin
Re: guessing tunes at session
I find that only a small number of players will know tunes by name, most of us don't have a clue. So if someone says "well do the boy in the boat, Paddy Fahey's and the Man of the house, They'll still have a bar or two played before the orchestra gets into gear. Funny thing is the second tune always seems much easier to pick up on. My advice fiddlemax would be to persevere, don't leave it at home, it will come in time.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Backer
Re: guessing tunes at session
Something else I've noticed, is that at some sessions, the tunes are played through only twice in a set. If the person who leads off is listening to what is going on in the room, and notices that others are having trouble joining in, they might be thoughtful enough to continue the tune, maybe playing each one four times or more, giving everyone a chance to pick up on the tunes. It's a great way to learn new tunes for someone quick on the uptake as well.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Backer
Re: guessing tunes at session
After a while, whether you think you know it or not, you can just give the tunes a try. Often, your fingers will remember what your brain will not. However, if you don't know it, for the sake of others, stop before you become a noodler.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by AlBrown
Re: guessing tunes at session
Nothing wrong with QUIET noodling.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Backer
Re: guessing tunes at session
Yes there is. Quiet noodling leads to louder noodling.
Dr. Dow has the diagnosis spot on.
Sounds to me that the session has a serious phrasing problem.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Minerva McGonagall
Re: guessing tunes at session
"Nothing wrong with QUIET noodling."
There's no such thing.
# Posted on January 31st 2012 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: guessing tunes at session
Often, even if somebody says what tunes they're going to play in a set, tend to forget what's coming next because I'm enjoying playing the first tune so much. This could go hand-in-hand with my general terrible memory for tune names. But, naming tunes in a set can be good for a beginners' session. Gets your brain used to thinking about how to make transitions and a flavor for putting tunes into sets!
# Posted on February 1st 2012 by mellow yellow
Re: guessing tunes at session
"QUIET noodling." Ha ha, that made me laugh. It's the way the word QUIET was SHOUTED.
# Posted on February 1st 2012 by ...
Re: guessing tunes at session
What Dow said.
To reiterate: if the tunes are in fact unidentifiable because of the way they are being phrased, you need to go to a different session. If the tunes seem unidentifiable because you can't hear their more subtle elements, you need to become a better listener/player.
Sometimes all of us have wee brain malfunctions where you hear a tune and think, "That sounds vaguely familiar. Wonder what that is." The third time through, you realize it's something you've played 37829344 times. If that happens on almost every set, it's a bigger problem.
# Posted on February 1st 2012 by DrSilverSpear
Re: guessing tunes at session
"Nothing wrong with QUIET noodling."
How can you tell?
I can think of no way to measure how much your ilttle riffs and false starts are throwing your fellow musicians off, or distracting from others' enjoyment. Unless, of course, you ask them between tunes. And in that case, why not ask them how the tune goes, and go home and practice?
In any event, I for one would rather err on the side of courtesy -
No noodling here.
My two cents, FWIW.
# Posted on February 2nd 2012 by Piece
Re: guessing tunes at session
I prefer to use the snippet method most of the time even though there is a certain amount of resistance to it. I play a snippet of each tune so the people who are interested know what I intend to add on. This allows other players a chance to think about the change and be on board from the start, and if there's backup, they have an idea what's coming as well. I didn't invent this method; I observed it on trips to Ireland and recognized the advantages. Some people prefer to "wing it" and come up with medley's spontaneously, and I have no problem with that... it's all good. I just wish some of the other players who complain about the snippet method were as open to other ideas as I am to theirs.
# Posted on February 3rd 2012 by Phantom Button
Re: guessing tunes at session
If I understand "snippet", or perhaps "riff", then I will say that having another musician give me the symptoms of the tune before we kick off is a courtesy I always appreciate.
It frequently saves time on getting down to business, even though I will likely listen for a few bars to make sure that I think I am on the same page.
The issue for me is still listening, even once we have started - and I am still inclined to abandon ship if I believe I am making a mess of things.
FWIW
# Posted on February 3rd 2012 by Piece
Re: guessing tunes at session
Abandoning ship if you're messing things up is good... unfortunately I sometimes go down with the ship.
# Posted on February 3rd 2012 by Phantom Button
Re: guessing tunes at session
Getting onboard from the start (of each & every tune in a set) can be a good thing; at times. So, the snippet has it's purpose. Other times someone will spontaneously, & at the last second, go with something other than what is expected. This can be a trainwreck; & I'm sure it often is. Or it is also possible, if enough players are listening, there's only a bit of a bumpy ride, ears begin to perk up, & the next thing you know the session is playing a grand set.
# Posted on February 4th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: guessing tunes at session
Sometimes I recognize a tune and absolutely know before I start in that I can play it. Recently, though, I launched into a tune, only to realize that I could indeed play it, but on a different instrument than the one I was currently using, and crashed and burned!
# Posted on February 4th 2012 by AlBrown
Re: guessing tunes at session
I know what you mean, Al, I will either flail away unaware I'm playing it on the instrument I never worked it out on and wondering why it's so familiar yet so awkward, or amaze myself afterwards when I realize what I just did. Someday I swear I'll have all the tunes on both instruments... well, maybe if I never had to sleep.
# Posted on February 4th 2012 by Phantom Button