I'm upgrading my old reliable B/C Hohner Black Dot box for a sleeker new-fangled machine. I'm looking at a 3-voice Salterelle.
Two related questions:
1.Is C#/D tuning more suitable to playing Irish Trad music than B/C tuning? Would I be better off learning to play in C#/D tuning?
2.The reeds in my Hohner Black Dot never gave trouble but I hear quite a few people having to maintain reeds on their Salterelle boxes. Are Salterelle reeds less durable? I know it depends on the driver and whether you go through or around the potholes.
Both BC and C#D are suited for ITM. But the diff is in playing.
The BC has a more flowing sound, but requires more finger-fiddling. there are more cross-row playing.
The C#/D has got a more pumping sound, since it's often played a bit like a one-row box with the C# row used for odd notes. They also tend to be used more in the Sliabh Lucrah tradition than the main.
But you've got all the same notes. I personally prefer the flowing sound of the B/C over the pumping and hard sound of the C#/D. If you prefer playing on one row in and out, the C#/D would suit you just fine.
BC Is the way almost everyone is going today, I am playing a BC Salterelle myself (I used to have a Blackdot) and I am very happy with it. I have it two years now and no bother, it has'nt been treated that gentle either. I got it off John Brosnan in Kilcummin he is worth a visit if you are buying . SL lost a great man during the week all our prayers and thoughts are with him.
Another way to look at this is to ask yourself who are your favorite players. If you're a big fan of Jackie Daly, Aidan Coffey, Martin O'Connor or (insert favorite SL player here), and you really want to play that style, C#/D might be the thing.
If you're into Jo Marsh, Billy McComiskey, John Williams, PJ Hernon and others of that ilk, maybe it would be best to stick with B/C.
I went through the same thing a few years ago, and decided to stick with B/C, even though I really like a lot of C#/D players. The reasons went something like: I've already invested several years in playing this system, B/C is *somewhat* more flexible, key-wise, and because I wanted to be able to play in keys that are difficult on the flute, like Dm, Gm/F and so on. I've had the odd bout of C#/D envy since, but I got over it.
Plus you can always learn C#/D style on the B/C, just for fun.
Thanks for the advice lads, much appreciated and very useful.
But surely Máirtín O'Connor wouldn't be described as an SL player in the same style as Jackie Daly or Christy Leahy (the other North Cregg)?
My situation is that I love all the above box players (Gzeg's reply)but would consider Jackie Daly's / Séamus Begley's polkas easier to pick up than say some rolling Máirtín O'Connor composition. i.e. to me this style (tunes) is more achievable than the one-off uniqueness Máirtín's or John William's style (tunes).
So by one theory, C#/D would be more suitable to me. But if the playing swing is towards B/C (by Northcregg), and that's what I'm familiar with, then it's off to John Brosnan, Kilcummin with me, blast out a few polkas on one of his Salterelle's and then straight ahead to SL freedom, potholes or none.
Go ndéanfaidh Dia trócaire ar anam JO'L is go dtugann sé faoiseamh ar pé a d'fhág sé tar a éis.
If I ever take up a second instrument, I would love to learn the C#D box! I just love it and can't get enough of it. I think I'm going to order more CD's featuring C#D box players : )
A few years ago I bought a 2nd hand C#D from Charlie Harris (player, maker and repairer) in Ireland.
My idea then was to develop my playing skills on the accordeon based on many years of playing the concertina.
Finding time to play/practice has always been the problem for me, but I took it out and dusted it down recently, determined to master the beast.
I´m used to playing mainly in D and G on the concertina, and whereas I can knock out tunes in D on the accordeon with no problem, I´m all over the place when I try to play in G. It doesn´t come naturally.....yet!
A major tunes come fairly easy on the accordeon but they´re a real headache on the concertina - at least, the way I play it!
I know the answer is a quarter of an hour or so of scales before I start practicing. It´ll come eventually.
The other thing of course is that it´s a lot more physical after playing the concertina. Quite an obvious observation, I suppose, but I feel like I´d need to go into training to last a whole session on the accordeon!
Mike
Before you make the switch you might try what Gzeg suggested: playing C#/D style on the B/C box. Ignore the basses. Take a new tune or two and tune or two that you already play in D, G, or their relative minors or modes, transpose them down a whole step to C, F or their relative minors or modes, and learn/re-learn them on the B/C. Then decide (a) if you can handle it (b) if you prefer them that way. If yes to both, go with C#/D. If not, stick with B/C.
From what I notice on the Irish accordion groups on Yahoo, the trend towards B/C is showing signs of slowing or reversing. Beginners mostly start on B/C because there are more teachers, but a significant number of players are switching over. When I saw Jo Marsh last month, she said she was thinking of buying a C#/D box.
Again, to elaborate on something Gzeg said, those great East Clare tunes that are commonly played in G Dorian would be hell on the C#/D box. Either you'd break a finger or your head would explode. At least mine would. All the notes are there, but mere mortals can't find them in real time. On the other hand, I love playing those tunes on the B/C, which means I'd probably love playing tunes in the more common keys of D, G, EDor, ADor, AMix, DMix, BMin, and EMin on the C#/D (though I'd have to re-learn them).
I have the Saltarelle Irish Boebe B/C which I use for playing Welsh tunes as it gives the tunes more of a flowing sound. The D/G which most people use can make everything sound far to rumpty-tumpty for my taste.
As for the reeds, I was forever replacing reeds on my old black dot Hohner but in eight years of owning my Saltarelle I've replaced one reed and had the tuning tweaked once. It gets both busked and gigged fairly hard and gives me very little trouble.
The solution is to have two boxes indeed and there's no harm trying both fingerings that enables to play in the key C on a BC which gives the box a real nice tone especially when you play in your own kitchen , and when it comes to playing a Paddy O' Brian tune there's no way you can do it on a C#D, so it is preferable to have a good technique on the B/C I suppose.
Pascal
I like a bit of rumpy pumpy myself, I play Welsh tunes on a D/G but would love to play C#/D Irish tunes (which I mostly play). Can't afford one at the moment, but that would be my favourite, I'm not keen on dance tunes on the more flowing B/C etc.
Hi
I'm currently going through this. ( Feb 2008 - This year's project at 68 years old!).
I bought a C#/D Saltarelle Mairtin O'Connor model on eBay after playing for many years on D/G but always loving Jackie Daly and Joe Burke for their unique styles etc, I'm a box fiend!
I agree with all that is said. Take any box and try to get the tunes out to your satisfaction in sessions or play along with the PAADI system ( "Play Along Ad Infinitum") (Copyright Mike Wild 2008 or I'll come and get you)
The melodeon was the first box played in Ireland along with the Anglo-Gerrman concertina, probably C push/pull like a mouth organ and then it all evolved from chromatic boxes like C/C#.
I have restored and sold quite a few Italian C/C# accordions from the early 1900s.) Then the '50s Button Accordion movement brought in B/C. I still love the D/G bass options and wish I could combine the fluidity of the Right with the certainties of the Left. I will report back when I have explored the C#/D and filed down some reeds.
.
Incidentally, I love the CD that goes with David Hanrahan's book on the B/C Box in B/C" I play along to it on my concertinas and the SALTERELLE C#/D . As I play by ear, there are no probs.
Cheers,
Mike Wild.
If you opt for C# D you must realise that tunes in C Gm/F and B flat do not sit very well and should be avoided. A good option is a box tuned in D/D#. This box steers you away from those awful inflections and towards a melodeon in the Key of D. It allows nice double cuts on the notes of F# D and B. Also the keys of F, Gm and B flat are straight forward. The key of C ican be troublesome for some people. I also play a box tuned in F#/G. really friendly when you get used to it. Mike Wild : Love to hear how your 2008 project went
B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
I'm upgrading my old reliable B/C Hohner Black Dot box for a sleeker new-fangled machine. I'm looking at a 3-voice Salterelle.
Two related questions:
1.Is C#/D tuning more suitable to playing Irish Trad music than B/C tuning? Would I be better off learning to play in C#/D tuning?
2.The reeds in my Hohner Black Dot never gave trouble but I hear quite a few people having to maintain reeds on their Salterelle boxes. Are Salterelle reeds less durable? I know it depends on the driver and whether you go through or around the potholes.
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Seán sa Cheoil
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
Both BC and C#D are suited for ITM. But the diff is in playing.
The BC has a more flowing sound, but requires more finger-fiddling. there are more cross-row playing.
The C#/D has got a more pumping sound, since it's often played a bit like a one-row box with the C# row used for odd notes. They also tend to be used more in the Sliabh Lucrah tradition than the main.
But you've got all the same notes. I personally prefer the flowing sound of the B/C over the pumping and hard sound of the C#/D. If you prefer playing on one row in and out, the C#/D would suit you just fine.
Lars.
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by Larshansen
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
BC Is the way almost everyone is going today, I am playing a BC Salterelle myself (I used to have a Blackdot) and I am very happy with it. I have it two years now and no bother, it has'nt been treated that gentle either. I got it off John Brosnan in Kilcummin he is worth a visit if you are buying . SL lost a great man during the week all our prayers and thoughts are with him.
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by Northcregg
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
Another way to look at this is to ask yourself who are your favorite players. If you're a big fan of Jackie Daly, Aidan Coffey, Martin O'Connor or (insert favorite SL player here), and you really want to play that style, C#/D might be the thing.
If you're into Jo Marsh, Billy McComiskey, John Williams, PJ Hernon and others of that ilk, maybe it would be best to stick with B/C.
I went through the same thing a few years ago, and decided to stick with B/C, even though I really like a lot of C#/D players. The reasons went something like: I've already invested several years in playing this system, B/C is *somewhat* more flexible, key-wise, and because I wanted to be able to play in keys that are difficult on the flute, like Dm, Gm/F and so on. I've had the odd bout of C#/D envy since, but I got over it.
Plus you can always learn C#/D style on the B/C, just for fun.
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
Thanks for the advice lads, much appreciated and very useful.
But surely Máirtín O'Connor wouldn't be described as an SL player in the same style as Jackie Daly or Christy Leahy (the other North Cregg)?
My situation is that I love all the above box players (Gzeg's reply)but would consider Jackie Daly's / Séamus Begley's polkas easier to pick up than say some rolling Máirtín O'Connor composition. i.e. to me this style (tunes) is more achievable than the one-off uniqueness Máirtín's or John William's style (tunes).
So by one theory, C#/D would be more suitable to me. But if the playing swing is towards B/C (by Northcregg), and that's what I'm familiar with, then it's off to John Brosnan, Kilcummin with me, blast out a few polkas on one of his Salterelle's and then straight ahead to SL freedom, potholes or none.
Go ndéanfaidh Dia trócaire ar anam JO'L is go dtugann sé faoiseamh ar pé a d'fhág sé tar a éis.
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by Seán sa Cheoil
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
If I ever take up a second instrument, I would love to learn the C#D box! I just love it and can't get enough of it. I think I'm going to order more CD's featuring C#D box players : )
Joyce
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by JMH
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
A few years ago I bought a 2nd hand C#D from Charlie Harris (player, maker and repairer) in Ireland.
My idea then was to develop my playing skills on the accordeon based on many years of playing the concertina.
Finding time to play/practice has always been the problem for me, but I took it out and dusted it down recently, determined to master the beast.
I´m used to playing mainly in D and G on the concertina, and whereas I can knock out tunes in D on the accordeon with no problem, I´m all over the place when I try to play in G. It doesn´t come naturally.....yet!
A major tunes come fairly easy on the accordeon but they´re a real headache on the concertina - at least, the way I play it!
I know the answer is a quarter of an hour or so of scales before I start practicing. It´ll come eventually.
The other thing of course is that it´s a lot more physical after playing the concertina. Quite an obvious observation, I suppose, but I feel like I´d need to go into training to last a whole session on the accordeon!
Mike
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by murfbox
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
Before you make the switch you might try what Gzeg suggested: playing C#/D style on the B/C box. Ignore the basses. Take a new tune or two and tune or two that you already play in D, G, or their relative minors or modes, transpose them down a whole step to C, F or their relative minors or modes, and learn/re-learn them on the B/C. Then decide (a) if you can handle it (b) if you prefer them that way. If yes to both, go with C#/D. If not, stick with B/C.
From what I notice on the Irish accordion groups on Yahoo, the trend towards B/C is showing signs of slowing or reversing. Beginners mostly start on B/C because there are more teachers, but a significant number of players are switching over. When I saw Jo Marsh last month, she said she was thinking of buying a C#/D box.
Again, to elaborate on something Gzeg said, those great East Clare tunes that are commonly played in G Dorian would be hell on the C#/D box. Either you'd break a finger or your head would explode. At least mine would. All the notes are there, but mere mortals can't find them in real time. On the other hand, I love playing those tunes on the B/C, which means I'd probably love playing tunes in the more common keys of D, G, EDor, ADor, AMix, DMix, BMin, and EMin on the C#/D (though I'd have to re-learn them).
I guess the solution is to have two boxes.
Good luck!
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
I have the Saltarelle Irish Boebe B/C which I use for playing Welsh tunes as it gives the tunes more of a flowing sound. The D/G which most people use can make everything sound far to rumpty-tumpty for my taste.
As for the reeds, I was forever replacing reeds on my old black dot Hohner but in eight years of owning my Saltarelle I've replaced one reed and had the tuning tweaked once. It gets both busked and gigged fairly hard and gives me very little trouble.
Gary.
# Posted on May 10th 2005 by garynortheast
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
The solution is to have two boxes indeed and there's no harm trying both fingerings that enables to play in the key C on a BC which gives the box a real nice tone especially when you play in your own kitchen , and when it comes to playing a Paddy O' Brian tune there's no way you can do it on a C#D, so it is preferable to have a good technique on the B/C I suppose.
Pascal
# Posted on June 27th 2005 by pascal&brigitte
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
I like a bit of rumpy pumpy myself, I play Welsh tunes on a D/G but would love to play C#/D Irish tunes (which I mostly play). Can't afford one at the moment, but that would be my favourite, I'm not keen on dance tunes on the more flowing B/C etc.
# Posted on July 9th 2006 by Frezz
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
Hi
I'm currently going through this. ( Feb 2008 - This year's project at 68 years old!).
I bought a C#/D Saltarelle Mairtin O'Connor model on eBay after playing for many years on D/G but always loving Jackie Daly and Joe Burke for their unique styles etc, I'm a box fiend!
I agree with all that is said. Take any box and try to get the tunes out to your satisfaction in sessions or play along with the PAADI system ( "Play Along Ad Infinitum") (Copyright Mike Wild 2008 or I'll come and get you)
The melodeon was the first box played in Ireland along with the Anglo-Gerrman concertina, probably C push/pull like a mouth organ and then it all evolved from chromatic boxes like C/C#.
I have restored and sold quite a few Italian C/C# accordions from the early 1900s.) Then the '50s Button Accordion movement brought in B/C. I still love the D/G bass options and wish I could combine the fluidity of the Right with the certainties of the Left. I will report back when I have explored the C#/D and filed down some reeds.
.
Incidentally, I love the CD that goes with David Hanrahan's book on the B/C Box in B/C" I play along to it on my concertinas and the SALTERELLE C#/D . As I play by ear, there are no probs.
Cheers,
Mike Wild.
# Posted on February 4th 2008 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: B/C or C#/D Button Accordion
If you opt for C# D you must realise that tunes in C Gm/F and B flat do not sit very well and should be avoided. A good option is a box tuned in D/D#. This box steers you away from those awful inflections and towards a melodeon in the Key of D. It allows nice double cuts on the notes of F# D and B. Also the keys of F, Gm and B flat are straight forward. The key of C ican be troublesome for some people. I also play a box tuned in F#/G. really friendly when you get used to it. Mike Wild : Love to hear how your 2008 project went
# Posted on November 15th 2009 by mick denieffe