I have been listening to some recordings of a slide called "Ask My Father", but I just don't "get it". I think the start of the tune sounds like a broken record... I've been trying to at least get the rythm right, but I can't.
I was just wondering if any of you have a similar thing with this or any other tune. It's not so much that I don't like it, I just don't understand it.
It's not a slide, it's a single jig. On the printed page they may look similar - 12/8 time signatures and abundant long-short long-short rhythmic figures - but they are played differently.
I can follow the tune on the video all right. The ones that do throw me are tunes that are composed or played, whether accidentally or on purpose, with a bar too many or a bar too few in one or more of their parts - and I don't mean one of the bona-fide set-dance tunes with shorter or longer parts than your average jig or hornpipe! I mean tunes that give uptight hidebound people like me the uncomfortable feeling that a Mistake has been built into them...
nicholas: so can I. I've played the tune for years. I suspect Pascal's difficulty with the tune was rooted in his interpretation of it as a slide.
My question was, would someone please define the difference between slides and single jigs, as being an ignorant American who's only played Irish trad exclusively for 20+ years, I'm not competent to make a comment on it? Yes, that's a dig at you cultural nationalists out there.
The first part may be slightly tricky, I imagine - get a copy of Donal Clancy's "Close to Home" which (apart from being a treat in general) has a very clear and "well-pulsed" version of it.
I remember that the first tune I was supposed to learn on the tin whistle back in 2001 was the Blackbird (set dance) - from stave notation, not knowing much about Irish music at all; since then my attempts at undestanding this tune failed repeatedly until I heard the Bothy Band recording of it (around 2005), and in a moment it became one of my favourites.
A few years back there was a decent discussion about single jigs and slides in the comments for a tune. I can't recall which tune it was though.
I'm no more "expert" than you, Seosamh, but I've heard several good players give a similar explanation of the difference, and it made sense to me. Goes like this:
Single jigs and slides are similar in having a "humpty dumpty" feel from pairings of quarter and eighth notes. These are mixed in with eighth-note runs, but not so much as in double jigs. But the phrases in slides are longer than in single jigs, which is why they're written (when anyone bothers to write them down) in 12/8, and single jigs are best shown in 6/8, just like double jigs.
Of course, slides are also danced differently than ordinary jigs, at least in places where people know how to dance slides (e.g. Sliabh Luchra). And so the feel and pace of a slide is different than a single jig--typically faster and with more flow than bounce.
"If a cute little girl with big curly hair asks for something, it probably won't be a slide, unless she's a set dancer with unfortunate hair. If she's a stepdancer, she'll have asked for a single jig!"
Coleman's Hop Jig, also called The Promenade by some. Not a slide or single jig. This is one great tune, but I am so thrown by the A part that I can't learn it, although the B part is perfectly clear. Then there are some others, like Comb Your Hair and Curl It or The Foxhunters (jig) that are perfectly clear to me when played in a certain way (as slip jigs, I presume) but make little sense when played a different way (as hop jigs, I presume). Just in case we needed a new can of worms ...
Okay, Dragut. I didn't mean to sound pedantic. Whatever. As an aside, I would just like to thank you for the great music that you have posted on your blog. It is now one of my main sources. As for hop jigs / slip jigs, I have to admit my ignorance. I love slip jigs and keep trying to learn new ones. But if you listen, for example to how the Chieftains play Comb your hair and curl it on their first album and how Ms McEvoy and the O Raghallaighs play it on their album of the same name, you might agree that, while it is the same tune, it is played so differently that it might be well two different tunes. Or maybe I am just rhythmically challenged.
Hop jigs and hop jigs and slip jigs are slip jigs. Different rhythms. There are some jigs, such as the Foxhunter's and Comb Your Hair, which are played as both. If you ever really want to confuse an accompanist, have a few hop jigs on hand.
It also goes to show how little time signatures tell you, for the time signature is 9/8 in both instances but you don't play them the same way. The Foxhunter's hop jig is pretty much a different tune from the Foxhunter's slip jig. Same notes, kinda, but quite a different sounding rhythm.
Sometimes I'll play a set where I play the Foxhunter's hop jig into the slip jig (or vice versa) and then maybe throw in the reel of the same name for good measure, in A and G.
I didn't think you were being pedantic, Reedy, it's just that I really don't understand why anyone would want to play a hop jig as if it was a slip jig. It just sounds terrible. It's unlikely that you're rhythmically challenged, probably more likely that you haven't listened to enough hop jigs to internalise the rhythm, that's all.
It's a little like polkas and slides. Most people play polkas as if they are in 4/4, like fast marches, and you can't dance a polka to that. Likewise, you can't dance a slide to a tune played like a 6/8 jig. Polkas and slides are lovely tunes, which are mercilessly abused the whole world over, and it's a shame. Hop jigs are also great tunes, and they are wrecked all over the place. Many people think they hate the Tommy Potts tune 'The Butterfly' because they think it's a bad slip jig, when in fact it's a great little hop jig. I'm pretty sure there was a recent discussion that mentions it.
As I understand it, a single jig goes at pretty well the speed and rhythm of: | HUM-pty DUM-pty | SAT on a WALL | -and so on.
(This is the tune called Off She Goes.)
I.e., ordinary 6/8 jig time and speed(s), with just more crotchet-quaver sequences than a double jig - although treble-quaver sequences occur as well.
Again as I understand it, a slide is often played notably faster and is in 12/8 time.
E.g., in abc notation, O'Keefe's Slide:
| A2 e e2 d BAB d2 B | A2 e e2 d B2 G GF#G |
If you don't know abc notation, what mainly signifies here is that the letters with '2' after them are crotchets, the others quavers. The notes beginning the bars will be given the main emphasis, even if counterbalanced by notes later in the bar - not quite the same as the 'upp-ity upp-ity | upp-ity upp-ity...' double jig rhythm.
I don't dance, so am afraid I can't comment on this very important dimension. I get the impression, though, that when adequately lubricated companies dance stuff they're thoroughly familiar with to slide rhythms / tunes, they really go. Slides in UK sessions (airy generalisation...) tend to get played very stodgily, as if they were double jigs. As they tend to have a lot of crotchets, the spaces in these tunes yawn when they are played too slow. Being there is like standing on garden decking and realising that one is being remorselessly cut off from better places by gaps and chasms that are looking ever deeper and wider.
A set of slides should be opened as if one were hurling a serpent into a hen party. I don't play them often enough.
Tunes you don't understand
Tunes you don't understand
I have been listening to some recordings of a slide called "Ask My Father", but I just don't "get it". I think the start of the tune sounds like a broken record... I've been trying to at least get the rythm right, but I can't.
I was just wondering if any of you have a similar thing with this or any other tune. It's not so much that I don't like it, I just don't understand it.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by pascal77
Re: Tunes you don't understand
It's not a slide, it's a single jig. On the printed page they may look similar - 12/8 time signatures and abundant long-short long-short rhythmic figures - but they are played differently.
Listen to this gent playing Ask My Father here: http://source.pipers.ie/Search/SearchResult.aspx?searchTerm=Ask+My+Father&startRowIndex=0&pageSize=12&mediaId=4305
Would anyone more expert than I care to explain the distinguishing features (besides tempo) betwixt slides and single jigs?
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Tunes you don't understand
I can follow the tune on the video all right. The ones that do throw me are tunes that are composed or played, whether accidentally or on purpose, with a bar too many or a bar too few in one or more of their parts - and I don't mean one of the bona-fide set-dance tunes with shorter or longer parts than your average jig or hornpipe! I mean tunes that give uptight hidebound people like me the uncomfortable feeling that a Mistake has been built into them...
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by nicholas
Re: Tunes you don't understand
nicholas: so can I. I've played the tune for years. I suspect Pascal's difficulty with the tune was rooted in his interpretation of it as a slide.
My question was, would someone please define the difference between slides and single jigs, as being an ignorant American who's only played Irish trad exclusively for 20+ years, I'm not competent to make a comment on it? Yes, that's a dig at you cultural nationalists out there.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Tunes you don't understand
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17590/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14896/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/3854/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23658/
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tunes you don't understand
The first part may be slightly tricky, I imagine - get a copy of Donal Clancy's "Close to Home" which (apart from being a treat in general) has a very clear and "well-pulsed" version of it.
I remember that the first tune I was supposed to learn on the tin whistle back in 2001 was the Blackbird (set dance) - from stave notation, not knowing much about Irish music at all; since then my attempts at undestanding this tune failed repeatedly until I heard the Bothy Band recording of it (around 2005), and in a moment it became one of my favourites.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by Janek
Re: Tunes you don't understand
I may be wrong but I hope when I'm playing "Humours of Kiltyclogher" it's a single jig.
Stumbled on this old question . . .
Fisher Street
Posted on January 15th 2003 by Feargal French
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1274/comments#comment20382
I haven't heard the recording. But I have to ask, are "Helvic Head" & "Trip to Kilarney" played as slip jigs?
The tune links are jigs;
Out In The Night
Fisherstreet
August 20th 2004 by _Steph_.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1146
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Sorry, that should be is (just) "Trip to Kilarney" played as a slip jig, on the recording.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Killarney
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Tunes you don't understand
So is this the new politically-correct term for shight tunes?
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by Whiddler
Re: Tunes you don't understand
No.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tunes you don't understand
A few years back there was a decent discussion about single jigs and slides in the comments for a tune. I can't recall which tune it was though.
I'm no more "expert" than you, Seosamh, but I've heard several good players give a similar explanation of the difference, and it made sense to me. Goes like this:
Single jigs and slides are similar in having a "humpty dumpty" feel from pairings of quarter and eighth notes. These are mixed in with eighth-note runs, but not so much as in double jigs. But the phrases in slides are longer than in single jigs, which is why they're written (when anyone bothers to write them down) in 12/8, and single jigs are best shown in 6/8, just like double jigs.
Of course, slides are also danced differently than ordinary jigs, at least in places where people know how to dance slides (e.g. Sliabh Luchra). And so the feel and pace of a slide is different than a single jig--typically faster and with more flow than bounce.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Tunes you don't understand
Comments: The Road To Lisdoonvarna
Key signature: E Dorian
Submitted on August 24th 2001 by Kerri Brown.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/250/comments
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Tunes you don't understand
"If a cute little girl with big curly hair asks for something, it probably won't be a slide, unless she's a set dancer with unfortunate hair. If she's a stepdancer, she'll have asked for a single jig!"
Posted on April 4th 2005 by Zina Lee
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Tunes you don't understand
Ah, thanks for the link, Tonya. You're doing well at the role a certain muse once filled....
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Tunes you don't understand
Coleman's Hop Jig, also called The Promenade by some. Not a slide or single jig. This is one great tune, but I am so thrown by the A part that I can't learn it, although the B part is perfectly clear. Then there are some others, like Comb Your Hair and Curl It or The Foxhunters (jig) that are perfectly clear to me when played in a certain way (as slip jigs, I presume) but make little sense when played a different way (as hop jigs, I presume). Just in case we needed a new can of worms ...
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by reedy grins
Re: Tunes you don't understand
I don't understand hop jigs played as slip jigs.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tunes you don't understand
Okay, Dragut. I didn't mean to sound pedantic. Whatever. As an aside, I would just like to thank you for the great music that you have posted on your blog. It is now one of my main sources. As for hop jigs / slip jigs, I have to admit my ignorance. I love slip jigs and keep trying to learn new ones. But if you listen, for example to how the Chieftains play Comb your hair and curl it on their first album and how Ms McEvoy and the O Raghallaighs play it on their album of the same name, you might agree that, while it is the same tune, it is played so differently that it might be well two different tunes. Or maybe I am just rhythmically challenged.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by reedy grins
Re: Tunes you don't understand
Hop jigs and hop jigs and slip jigs are slip jigs. Different rhythms. There are some jigs, such as the Foxhunter's and Comb Your Hair, which are played as both. If you ever really want to confuse an accompanist, have a few hop jigs on hand.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tunes you don't understand
Hop jigs *are hop jigs....
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tunes you don't understand
It also goes to show how little time signatures tell you, for the time signature is 9/8 in both instances but you don't play them the same way. The Foxhunter's hop jig is pretty much a different tune from the Foxhunter's slip jig. Same notes, kinda, but quite a different sounding rhythm.
Sometimes I'll play a set where I play the Foxhunter's hop jig into the slip jig (or vice versa) and then maybe throw in the reel of the same name for good measure, in A and G.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tunes you don't understand
I didn't think you were being pedantic, Reedy, it's just that I really don't understand why anyone would want to play a hop jig as if it was a slip jig. It just sounds terrible. It's unlikely that you're rhythmically challenged, probably more likely that you haven't listened to enough hop jigs to internalise the rhythm, that's all.
It's a little like polkas and slides. Most people play polkas as if they are in 4/4, like fast marches, and you can't dance a polka to that. Likewise, you can't dance a slide to a tune played like a 6/8 jig. Polkas and slides are lovely tunes, which are mercilessly abused the whole world over, and it's a shame. Hop jigs are also great tunes, and they are wrecked all over the place. Many people think they hate the Tommy Potts tune 'The Butterfly' because they think it's a bad slip jig, when in fact it's a great little hop jig. I'm pretty sure there was a recent discussion that mentions it.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by Dragut Reis
Re: Tunes you don't understand
Is this what you all mean by hop jig? Tommy Potts' playing of the Butterfly?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNqqsAo48hQ
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by ElaineT
Re: Tunes you don't understand
@Seosamh Ui Sinan:
As I understand it, a single jig goes at pretty well the speed and rhythm of: | HUM-pty DUM-pty | SAT on a WALL | -and so on.
(This is the tune called Off She Goes.)
I.e., ordinary 6/8 jig time and speed(s), with just more crotchet-quaver sequences than a double jig - although treble-quaver sequences occur as well.
Again as I understand it, a slide is often played notably faster and is in 12/8 time.
E.g., in abc notation, O'Keefe's Slide:
| A2 e e2 d BAB d2 B | A2 e e2 d B2 G GF#G |
If you don't know abc notation, what mainly signifies here is that the letters with '2' after them are crotchets, the others quavers. The notes beginning the bars will be given the main emphasis, even if counterbalanced by notes later in the bar - not quite the same as the 'upp-ity upp-ity | upp-ity upp-ity...' double jig rhythm.
I don't dance, so am afraid I can't comment on this very important dimension. I get the impression, though, that when adequately lubricated companies dance stuff they're thoroughly familiar with to slide rhythms / tunes, they really go. Slides in UK sessions (airy generalisation...) tend to get played very stodgily, as if they were double jigs. As they tend to have a lot of crotchets, the spaces in these tunes yawn when they are played too slow. Being there is like standing on garden decking and realising that one is being remorselessly cut off from better places by gaps and chasms that are looking ever deeper and wider.
A set of slides should be opened as if one were hurling a serpent into a hen party. I don't play them often enough.
I hope at least some of this is helpful
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by nicholas