At the session this week, I learned that one of the ladies that attends is an Irish Step-Dancer and that she use to sing Sean Nos. Of course, I had to get into "learner mode" and see what I could find out from her. There were only four of us there, and only two of us were melody players so most of the time we just talked about The Music. After we played a couple of sets, she asked me how long I'd been playing and if I was classically trained. I explained to her the whole piano thing and then we got into some more music. Soooo, seeing the opportunity before me, I asked them how I sounded.
She said that I was getting close but that it was still obvious that I was new to the music. She said that she asked me if I was classically trained because while I was playing she read that I was thinking, a lot. Note for note. She also said that I sounded very "clean"(which I accepted as a compliment for now). And then it hit me. "Classically trained" doesn't mean for a specific instrument. It means in music as a whole. So no matter what instrument i'm playing, my brain still thinks as a classical musician.
Well of course this was bad news at first light. But then she told me that for how long i've been playing, it's acceptable for me to sound this way. Then she talked to me about how the musicians feel the music and how free it becomes, and that all I need to do for now is keep learning more about the instrument. That the sound would come.
So even though I am classically trained, there is still hope for me YET ;)
The term 'classically *trained*' is moot, as it suggests being 'trained' like a tree or a rosebush - forced to follow an unnatural path. There certainly seems to be a trend in classical music education to blinker the learner, discourage awareness of other kinds of music - no doubt, it depends on the individual teacher, how prevalent this attitude is. But, whilst there may be a certain amount of 'unlearning' to do (even when starting on a different instrument), your knowledge of classical music actually arms you with a lot of useful skills, that should make it a lot easier to pick up certain aspects of this music than for someone with no prior musical experience.
So, the key thing is to learn to recognise which aspects of your classical training are useful and which are not, for the purposes of traditional music, and capitalise on those which are.
I have been 'classically trained' - saxophone if you can believe it and have been learning fiddle for the past 2 years. Funny enough I don't sound anything like a classical violinist. Maybe because I've only ever played trad on the fiddle, maybe it's because I've played trad flute for the past 7 years as well. I tried to learn a couple classical melodies by ear, but it actually ended out sounding like a folk interpretation of it (I wouldn't go as far to say I sounded 'Irish).
I think it comes down to I'm trying to emulate local fiddle players like Seamus Sands and Matt Cranitch. Although my bowing is horrendous compared to theirs, I'm imitating a traditional style of bowing, not classical bowing (or other classical sounds like vibrato).
My fiddle certainly doesn't sound 'clean.' I find my classical experiences on saxophone has very little to do with how I approach fiddle. (Other than occasionally my classical ear training helps me to understand tonal patters in trad pretty quickly).
BTW, piano was my first instrument, which I learned more-or-less classically (although I never reached a high standard). I came to traditional music via rock, blues and 'folk'. But I still make use of the music theory and harmony I learned.
I don't think I sounded like a classical viloinist when I started learning fiddle 8 years ago - but that might be because I had already been playing traditional music on mandolin and whistle for 10 years. In fact, sounding like a well-trained classical violinist would be a vast improvement on my perpetually beginnerish fiddle playing.
Learning music it takes a while to absorb the aesthetic of the specific variety you're digging into. There are enough examples of traditional fiddlers who, while from a traditional background, learned 'proper' violin techniques in order to improve their tone and control while still remaining true to the traditional aesthetic.
So one group think you sound 'Scottish' and this person says you sound 'classical' and so on. Is this what multi culturalism is all about?
Don't be bothering with what other people think of you. You need a bit of confidence to just be happy to play as best you can and make the best of it..
About what I meant by "classically trained". I played very little classical music on piano. I've been taught that classically trained means you've been trained in music theory. And it's true. I've taken a lot of music theory classes and it's like a part of me to think that way. But I make sure it's a blessing instead of a curse. Gospel musicians have always gave me the "unlearn everyhing" conversation. But i've learned that the more I learn about music(theory or not) the better musician I am. So I keep playing my instruments and learn that way. But whatever the case, I want to sound Irish, so i'll keep listening to the music, and soon even i'll find those dancers.
I have heard people talk about some fiddle players playing this music with a "classical accent" - the big bow strokes, the vibrato, each note perfectly articulated. It reminds me of a Shakespearean actor trying to read a Brendan Behan script.
Jerone - you already know the solution - listen to more Irish music. You're clearly a quick study - you'll be musically "talking" like a native in no time I'm certain.
Jusa, i'm glad you mentioned "accent". I was recently thinking about regional accents and how they are made up of a bunch of nuances that make the speech as a whole sound different. Then I questioned how actors learned different accents. Of course I immediately had to look into this from a musical perspective. And I understood fully. The only way I could learn a vocal accent is if i'm exposed to the way it sounds, which in turn comes by listening. And while listening, listen close for the nuances.
Classical training gives us a completely different way of thinking about music. Of course it affects the sound when you play! Just as you immerse yourself in classical music to get your Mozart to sound right, you have to immerse yourself in Irish music to get your reels to sound right. The big problem with having only classical training is that we start out playing reels as if they were Mozart. All neat and tidy with perfect 4-bar phrasing.
Interestingly (but not surprisingly I suppose) playing Irish has freed up my classical playing. I have a beautiful series of transcriptions of some of the Bach solo violin and cello partitas for clarinet. They gave me fits in music school because I thought it was difficult to phrase them and find places to breathe. After all these years playing Irish flute I can find a million interesting ways to phrase them.
"They gave me fits in music school because I thought it was difficult to phrase them and find places to breathe. After all these years playing Irish flute I can find a million interesting ways to phrase them."
And the phrasing and accenting is all in the bowing so now that I know how to play left hand, now I can focus on right hand right? I'm a bit more familiar with how the music sound, and I hear it all day now with my growing collection of CDs. But recently i've been struggling getting that sound into my playing, even though I now know what it sounds like.
fiddlelearner, I don't think phrasing and accenting is all 'in the bowing' at all. It needs to be in your head. And I'm not saying that to be all enigmatic and zen-like; it really does have to come from how you hear and think of the music. Mechanically, a lot of can be done through the bowing, true—but the choice of notes, what the phrase _is_, how you express a certain part of a tune, is a combination of your brain, your heart, and both of your hands. Left hand cuts, rolls etc will totally affect the timing and phrasing for example.
Now, hope I'm not coming across as someone who thinks that they are 'there'. I'm a mediocre fiddler at best. But I've heard enough and seen enough to be pretty confident this is a good path to the sound we seek.
"Now, hope I'm not coming across as someone who thinks that they are 'there'. I'm a mediocre fiddler at best. But I've heard enough and seen enough to be pretty confident this is a good path to the sound we seek."
No, you don't come off that way. And if you are "there" then I should take what you're telling me heavily yes? I know sometimes it reads that i'm just expressing my ideas just to express them, but I express my ideas so that they can be checked. Remember I had a lot of inaccurate and false pre-concieved notions before I started playing this music so now I like to make sure my thinking is on the right path. Fortunately, there are those that are like you that help me get on and stay on that path ;)
I still continue my listening, and my practicing, but i'm beginning to think that I need to get a little more careful about what i'm listening to. I mean, of all the Irish music that I play and listen to, there's still a lot of non-Irish music in my daily listening routine. A lot of it is unneccessary, maybe it's time to "cut some lines".
The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
To make a short story long...
At the session this week, I learned that one of the ladies that attends is an Irish Step-Dancer and that she use to sing Sean Nos. Of course, I had to get into "learner mode" and see what I could find out from her. There were only four of us there, and only two of us were melody players so most of the time we just talked about The Music. After we played a couple of sets, she asked me how long I'd been playing and if I was classically trained. I explained to her the whole piano thing and then we got into some more music. Soooo, seeing the opportunity before me, I asked them how I sounded.
She said that I was getting close but that it was still obvious that I was new to the music. She said that she asked me if I was classically trained because while I was playing she read that I was thinking, a lot. Note for note. She also said that I sounded very "clean"(which I accepted as a compliment for now). And then it hit me. "Classically trained" doesn't mean for a specific instrument. It means in music as a whole. So no matter what instrument i'm playing, my brain still thinks as a classical musician.
Well of course this was bad news at first light. But then she told me that for how long i've been playing, it's acceptable for me to sound this way. Then she talked to me about how the musicians feel the music and how free it becomes, and that all I need to do for now is keep learning more about the instrument. That the sound would come.
So even though I am classically trained, there is still hope for me YET ;)
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
The term 'classically *trained*' is moot, as it suggests being 'trained' like a tree or a rosebush - forced to follow an unnatural path. There certainly seems to be a trend in classical music education to blinker the learner, discourage awareness of other kinds of music - no doubt, it depends on the individual teacher, how prevalent this attitude is. But, whilst there may be a certain amount of 'unlearning' to do (even when starting on a different instrument), your knowledge of classical music actually arms you with a lot of useful skills, that should make it a lot easier to pick up certain aspects of this music than for someone with no prior musical experience.
So, the key thing is to learn to recognise which aspects of your classical training are useful and which are not, for the purposes of traditional music, and capitalise on those which are.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
I have been 'classically trained' - saxophone if you can believe it and have been learning fiddle for the past 2 years. Funny enough I don't sound anything like a classical violinist. Maybe because I've only ever played trad on the fiddle, maybe it's because I've played trad flute for the past 7 years as well. I tried to learn a couple classical melodies by ear, but it actually ended out sounding like a folk interpretation of it (I wouldn't go as far to say I sounded 'Irish).
I think it comes down to I'm trying to emulate local fiddle players like Seamus Sands and Matt Cranitch. Although my bowing is horrendous compared to theirs, I'm imitating a traditional style of bowing, not classical bowing (or other classical sounds like vibrato).
My fiddle certainly doesn't sound 'clean.' I find my classical experiences on saxophone has very little to do with how I approach fiddle. (Other than occasionally my classical ear training helps me to understand tonal patters in trad pretty quickly).
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by jcawley
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
I was "classically trained." French horn for seven years. Believe me, I don't sound it (whatever that means, I ain't it). I was also crap at it.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
BTW, piano was my first instrument, which I learned more-or-less classically (although I never reached a high standard). I came to traditional music via rock, blues and 'folk'. But I still make use of the music theory and harmony I learned.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
I don't think I sounded like a classical viloinist when I started learning fiddle 8 years ago - but that might be because I had already been playing traditional music on mandolin and whistle for 10 years. In fact, sounding like a well-trained classical violinist would be a vast improvement on my perpetually beginnerish fiddle playing.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
Learning music it takes a while to absorb the aesthetic of the specific variety you're digging into. There are enough examples of traditional fiddlers who, while from a traditional background, learned 'proper' violin techniques in order to improve their tone and control while still remaining true to the traditional aesthetic.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
So one group think you sound 'Scottish' and this person says you sound 'classical' and so on. Is this what multi culturalism is all about?
Don't be bothering with what other people think of you. You need a bit of confidence to just be happy to play as best you can and make the best of it..
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by the wounded hussar
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
About what I meant by "classically trained". I played very little classical music on piano. I've been taught that classically trained means you've been trained in music theory. And it's true. I've taken a lot of music theory classes and it's like a part of me to think that way. But I make sure it's a blessing instead of a curse. Gospel musicians have always gave me the "unlearn everyhing" conversation. But i've learned that the more I learn about music(theory or not) the better musician I am. So I keep playing my instruments and learn that way. But whatever the case, I want to sound Irish, so i'll keep listening to the music, and soon even i'll find those dancers.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
I have heard people talk about some fiddle players playing this music with a "classical accent" - the big bow strokes, the vibrato, each note perfectly articulated. It reminds me of a Shakespearean actor trying to read a Brendan Behan script.
Jerone - you already know the solution - listen to more Irish music. You're clearly a quick study - you'll be musically "talking" like a native in no time I'm certain.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
Jusa, i'm glad you mentioned "accent". I was recently thinking about regional accents and how they are made up of a bunch of nuances that make the speech as a whole sound different. Then I questioned how actors learned different accents. Of course I immediately had to look into this from a musical perspective. And I understood fully. The only way I could learn a vocal accent is if i'm exposed to the way it sounds, which in turn comes by listening. And while listening, listen close for the nuances.
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
Classical training gives us a completely different way of thinking about music. Of course it affects the sound when you play! Just as you immerse yourself in classical music to get your Mozart to sound right, you have to immerse yourself in Irish music to get your reels to sound right. The big problem with having only classical training is that we start out playing reels as if they were Mozart. All neat and tidy with perfect 4-bar phrasing.
Interestingly (but not surprisingly I suppose) playing Irish has freed up my classical playing. I have a beautiful series of transcriptions of some of the Bach solo violin and cello partitas for clarinet. They gave me fits in music school because I thought it was difficult to phrase them and find places to breathe. After all these years playing Irish flute I can find a million interesting ways to phrase them.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by ElaineT
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
"They gave me fits in music school because I thought it was difficult to phrase them and find places to breathe. After all these years playing Irish flute I can find a million interesting ways to phrase them."
And the phrasing and accenting is all in the bowing so now that I know how to play left hand, now I can focus on right hand right? I'm a bit more familiar with how the music sound, and I hear it all day now with my growing collection of CDs. But recently i've been struggling getting that sound into my playing, even though I now know what it sounds like.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
"But recently i've been struggling getting that sound into my playing, even though I now know what it sounds like."
Take a number. There's a long line ahead of you.
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by DrSilverSpear
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
:P lol Well, I guess it's good knowing that i'm not the only one.
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
There are some good things to be learnt from the classics;
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/544#comments
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
fiddlelearner, I don't think phrasing and accenting is all 'in the bowing' at all. It needs to be in your head. And I'm not saying that to be all enigmatic and zen-like; it really does have to come from how you hear and think of the music. Mechanically, a lot of can be done through the bowing, true—but the choice of notes, what the phrase _is_, how you express a certain part of a tune, is a combination of your brain, your heart, and both of your hands. Left hand cuts, rolls etc will totally affect the timing and phrasing for example.
Now, hope I'm not coming across as someone who thinks that they are 'there'. I'm a mediocre fiddler at best. But I've heard enough and seen enough to be pretty confident this is a good path to the sound we seek.
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by fidkid
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
"Now, hope I'm not coming across as someone who thinks that they are 'there'. I'm a mediocre fiddler at best. But I've heard enough and seen enough to be pretty confident this is a good path to the sound we seek."
No, you don't come off that way. And if you are "there" then I should take what you're telling me heavily yes? I know sometimes it reads that i'm just expressing my ideas just to express them, but I express my ideas so that they can be checked. Remember I had a lot of inaccurate and false pre-concieved notions before I started playing this music so now I like to make sure my thinking is on the right path. Fortunately, there are those that are like you that help me get on and stay on that path ;)
I still continue my listening, and my practicing, but i'm beginning to think that I need to get a little more careful about what i'm listening to. I mean, of all the Irish music that I play and listen to, there's still a lot of non-Irish music in my daily listening routine. A lot of it is unneccessary, maybe it's time to "cut some lines".
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
Diagnosis? Are you sugegsting that being calsically trained is an illness or a disorder of some kind?
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by harmonic miner
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
like bad spelling for example
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by harmonic miner
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
Hey fiddle learner, how did you get on with the Bobby Casey recordings . Did you like the Jimmy Power stuff?
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Diagnosis - Classically Trained
Harmonic miner, more like a syndrome. That's what it feels like sometimes.
# Posted on January 26th 2012 by fiddlelearner