Hi guys,
I was hoping to get some feedback on staying in tune when playing notes that require the first finger to be up at the top of the string, eg F natural. Bees Wing hornpipe in B flat is one i find hard to play because i dont know whether i should change my left hand position further up the neck or stretch my first finger up and leave my left hand in its normal place. Any Suggestions?
I assume you are playing fiddle? Following on my from my previous post earlier .. is this not a perfect example of where playing some scales might be useful. I don't play scales much but one of the benefits I have noticed in playing sales outside the norm G, D or A major is that it get's you used to these notes that you don't encounter so much in Trad music eg C Major, A Minor will help with the F Note.
If you think of fingering for a particular key or tune as "difficult," then you've already convinced yourself that it will be a struggle.
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right."
Knowing the scale is helpful, but it's up to you to decide which is most effective for you: practicing scales or playing tunes. Either way can improve your ease of playing and intonation.
Personally, I'd rather spend my time improving my ability to play tunes, rather than bettering my knack for reiterating scales.
When a tune presents a fork in the road, like whether to reach or shift, why not try all the options you can think of? And maybe learn more than one way to play the given passage. That way, how you play becomes a choice, rather than a one-sided limitation. The more choices you give yourself, the more ways you have to be expressive.
P.S. Instead of thinking of things as easy and difficult, try familiar and unfamiliar. Stuff that seems difficult at first eventually becomes easy through repetition and familiarity.
Terminology may seem like a minor issue until you catch yourself with a death grip on the fiddle and flailing madly with the bow because you're battling something "difficult." Most people find it easier to relax--and play much better as a result--when they reframe the situation and think in more positive terms.
The Bee's Wing isn't an easy tune for anyone. If you're still finding your way about the flat keys it might be best to leave it for a while and try some easier tunes in Bb before you totally frustrate yourself.
Or if you really want to play the Bee's Wing, I've just noticed that the listing on this site is in G, which might be easier. (It won't make you popular with anyone wanting to play along though - I've never heard it anywhere but Bb.)
Nothing particularly tricky about Beeswing Hornpipe (rumored to be named after either the town in Scotland or the famous 19th century racehorse) on fiddle. Take it at an easy lope and just enjoy the melody. Bb fingering--as with any other key--comes easy enough if you use your ears, which is what this is all about, eh?
Another good reason for spending a few minutes on scales and arpeggios - the first reason I mentioned on the other thread was to check out and improve intonation - is to get used to finger patterns in different keys. If you aren't familiar with the patterns then you may find it a problem, for example, to transpose a tune on the hoof if you're a visitor in a session in another town where they always play your G-major tune in A.
Once you've cracked the fingering patterns for the small number of keys there are in Irish music you'll always have those patterns with you. It's not like running through a couple of scales when warming up to check intonation, because intonation will always slip if you don't watch it, no matter how good and experienced a player you are.
First off, I think "up" the neck would refer to going "up" in pitch, closer to your face. "Down" would refer to notes closer to the scroll. F natural is "lower" than F sharp. It is not "Up" the neck.
That said, I only shift "down" (closer to the nut and scroll) and play in what could be called half position (instead of 1st position) when there are LOTS of flats, like 5 or so. And that has only been in orchestral music.
I keep my hand where it is, and just reach "back" to finger F natural (on the E), B flat (on the A), E flat (on the D), and A flat (on the G).
I think The Bee's Wing is a good example of the kind of tune people talk about when they say don't play scales and arpeggios, play the tune. The Bee's Wing is basically Bb arpeggios and the Bb scale. If you want to learn the tune AND get experience playing in Bb, The Bee's Wing is the tune to play.
"rumored to be named after either the town in Scotland or the famous 19th century racehorse"
Funny things, rumours. "Beeswing" the "town" is not a town, but a hamlet/village in Dumfries & Galloway. It was named because the family (The Ordes) who owned the horse "Beeswing" bought the inn (Lochend) and renamed it after the said horse. Before that, the hamlet (probably qualifies as a village, as it has a kirk) was known as Lochend.
Anyway, nowt to do with our man James Hill. The horse also gave rise to a hotel (boozer) in Gateshead (Hill's adopted place of residence) being named the Bees Wing - later Beeswing. Woar James was a man for the boozers (being a publican) and it is more likely he named the tune after the boozer than directly after the horse. That's my rumour, anyway.
"The Bee's Wing as it was first shown [sic], later The Beeswing Hotel then Durty Nellies and now houses refugees
Named after Bee's Wing, foaled in 1833, This great mare (nicknamed the miner's friend) won the Newcastle Gold Cup 6 times, the Doncaster Gold Cup 4 times and the Ascot Gold Cup in 1842."
Not being classicaly trained, myself, I think of B-flat on fiddle as "the lower First Position," or (if I'm honest, to myself):
"sort of like C, but with the pinky down a half step for the top note," or
"that key I sometimes needed to play in, when the tune on the record/radio was in that key" (I did a lot of by-ear noodling, in the early days--jazz saxophone was part of it, so B-flat happened).
All of which could be an argument for proper academic musical training, I suppose.
Trevor wrote: "...intonation will always slip if you don't watch it, no matter how good and experienced a player you are."
Hmmm. I don't watch my intonation, I listen to it. And I'm not at all convinced that scales are necessary to keep intonation honed. Tunes work just fine, provided you're really listening.
"When a tune presents a fork in the road, like whether to reach or shift, why not try all the options you can think of?"
This is certainly excellent advice, for all instruments. I just want to point out that there's no need to limit yourself to the options you can think of. You can also learn from your mistakes.
"The Bee's Wing isn't an easy tune for anyone. If you're still finding your way about the flat keys it might be best to leave it for a while and try some easier tunes in Bb before you totally frustrate yourself."
There aren't a great many tunes normally in Bb in this kind of music - and those that there are are often 'showpieces'. But why not try transposing some common tunes into other keys (C, F, Bb...), just to familiarise yourself with the finger positions? The Silver Spear is nice in Bb, The Sally Gardens in F, The Maid Behind The Bar in C... Transposing is good musical excercise generally - it is a good test of your familiarity with *how the tune goes*, as opposed to *how to play the tune*.
Without contradicting any of the good advice above, another approach can be to start with "less-difficult tunes in difficult keys". Mary Claire - to me, anyway - would be a tune in that sort of category. See comments with the tune.
"There aren't a great many tunes normally in Bb in this kind of music..." unless you play a set of Bb pipes, of course. Or, indeed, play with a Bb piper.
It's all I know how to do. I'm not classically trained on fiddle and the whole 4-string thing confuses me in terms of scales. Piano simpler. You don't have to think about when to switch strings, just start at "this" key and end on "that" key.
"It's all I know how to do. I'm not classically trained on fiddle and the whole 4-string thing confuses me in terms of scales" fiddlelearner
I'm not a fiddler but when stretching the octaves to 3 for the accessible keys, it seems to be about the where and when to change fingers/position. Learning scales/tunes in a different key where your starting note is on a different finger would help I'd think re fingerings and therefore playing in the less played keys. There are only 4 combinations in the major scale that start on each of the four fingers, if you exclude the open notes, then it's just a case of identifying the starting finger as the scale position moves up and across the strings, that and when to move them.
Still, I've yet to meet a fiddler that can play 3 octave scales cleanly in any key other than G, classical players get special graded badges for doing so. G is as good a place to start as any, this is how I was shown how to do it;
Open G, 1st (finger) A, 2nd B, 3rd C. Open D 1st E 2nd F# then 1st finger up to high G on the D string to ready the hand for the next scale, which then continues on the D string up from the high G. 2nd finger A 3rd finger B, 4th C. Now to the A string, 1st finger D 2nd E Now the first finger moves up to F# and the second finger finishes the scale on the G. 3rd finger plays the A (12th fret octave of the open string) 4th B. Then to the E string; 1st C 2nd D 3rd E (12th fret octave of the open string) 4th F# and the same finger, the 4th for the top most G. Then down again.
Allow each root not to sound twice the duration of the others and it starts to sound quite structured.
Playing a fixed fret instrument I can only go as far as my frets allow, tough enough with frets, only 17 frets however leaves me a semitone short to fit Bd into 3 octaves, you fiddlers have no such excuse though, ha ha :b
Not a lot of tunes up there mind, but it's a laugh.
I've always shifted to third position on the A string, then 5th on the E. Each to his own.
Obviously the notes up at that end of the scale aren't frequently seen in trad outside of Scott Skinner tunes (e.g. the Mathematician Hornpipe), but it does help learn precise finger placement and playing each note in tune.
"aren't frequently seen in trad outside of Scott Skinner tunes "
I don't think they are seen at all. Perhaps that's why I don't consider Scott Skinner as "trad". Some of his tunes may have made it into the tradition - but "The Mathematician"? See "Party Pieces".
It's not necessarily playing up the neck in 5th position thats of value, I think the value is being able to know where your going from any given place on the neck, down to an open or first/second fingered note, or up to a closed one etc.
Still as mentioned, it's all in the tunes, but a few closed scales across a couple of octaves under the belt and those flat or half position keys seem a lot less intimidating. If they open a few doors, why not? No need to pay scales for the rest of your life, but handy I'd have thought for developing good intonation on fretless instruments, no?
Off topic and bearing in mind that I'm not a fiddler (well, I'm not a fiddle player), I was under the impression that trad fiddle clung to first position. Is this wrong?
Grab a mandolin and play it on that first. I blocked at playing tricky keys on the fiddle for years then spent a day playing through a few on the mandolin, after which they became so much easier on the fiddle - a great result for very little effort
Fingering in difficult keys
Fingering in difficult keys
Hi guys,
I was hoping to get some feedback on staying in tune when playing notes that require the first finger to be up at the top of the string, eg F natural. Bees Wing hornpipe in B flat is one i find hard to play because i dont know whether i should change my left hand position further up the neck or stretch my first finger up and leave my left hand in its normal place. Any Suggestions?
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Liam A
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Hard to suggest anything when you don't mention what instrument you play.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Why Bother?
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
I assume you are playing fiddle? Following on my from my previous post earlier .. is this not a perfect example of where playing some scales might be useful. I don't play scales much but one of the benefits I have noticed in playing sales outside the norm G, D or A major is that it get's you used to these notes that you don't encounter so much in Trad music eg C Major, A Minor will help with the F Note.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by DavidEd
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
David Ed,Well said.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
If you think of fingering for a particular key or tune as "difficult," then you've already convinced yourself that it will be a struggle.
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right."
Knowing the scale is helpful, but it's up to you to decide which is most effective for you: practicing scales or playing tunes. Either way can improve your ease of playing and intonation.
Personally, I'd rather spend my time improving my ability to play tunes, rather than bettering my knack for reiterating scales.
When a tune presents a fork in the road, like whether to reach or shift, why not try all the options you can think of? And maybe learn more than one way to play the given passage. That way, how you play becomes a choice, rather than a one-sided limitation. The more choices you give yourself, the more ways you have to be expressive.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
P.S. Instead of thinking of things as easy and difficult, try familiar and unfamiliar. Stuff that seems difficult at first eventually becomes easy through repetition and familiarity.
Terminology may seem like a minor issue until you catch yourself with a death grip on the fiddle and flailing madly with the bow because you're battling something "difficult." Most people find it easier to relax--and play much better as a result--when they reframe the situation and think in more positive terms.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
The Bee's Wing isn't an easy tune for anyone. If you're still finding your way about the flat keys it might be best to leave it for a while and try some easier tunes in Bb before you totally frustrate yourself.
Or if you really want to play the Bee's Wing, I've just noticed that the listing on this site is in G, which might be easier. (It won't make you popular with anyone wanting to play along though - I've never heard it anywhere but Bb.)
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by skreech
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
I can't figure out when/why you would shift up the neck on The Bee's Wing, in B flat.
Here's some good fingering by Tara Breen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzWH4s5NafE
No position shifts needed. Not even an extra stretch, by my estimation.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by John Galt
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Nothing particularly tricky about Beeswing Hornpipe (rumored to be named after either the town in Scotland or the famous 19th century racehorse) on fiddle. Take it at an easy lope and just enjoy the melody. Bb fingering--as with any other key--comes easy enough if you use your ears, which is what this is all about, eh?
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Another good reason for spending a few minutes on scales and arpeggios - the first reason I mentioned on the other thread was to check out and improve intonation - is to get used to finger patterns in different keys. If you aren't familiar with the patterns then you may find it a problem, for example, to transpose a tune on the hoof if you're a visitor in a session in another town where they always play your G-major tune in A.
Once you've cracked the fingering patterns for the small number of keys there are in Irish music you'll always have those patterns with you. It's not like running through a couple of scales when warming up to check intonation, because intonation will always slip if you don't watch it, no matter how good and experienced a player you are.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
First off, I think "up" the neck would refer to going "up" in pitch, closer to your face. "Down" would refer to notes closer to the scroll. F natural is "lower" than F sharp. It is not "Up" the neck.
That said, I only shift "down" (closer to the nut and scroll) and play in what could be called half position (instead of 1st position) when there are LOTS of flats, like 5 or so. And that has only been in orchestral music.
I keep my hand where it is, and just reach "back" to finger F natural (on the E), B flat (on the A), E flat (on the D), and A flat (on the G).
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Wyogal
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
I think The Bee's Wing is a good example of the kind of tune people talk about when they say don't play scales and arpeggios, play the tune. The Bee's Wing is basically Bb arpeggios and the Bb scale. If you want to learn the tune AND get experience playing in Bb, The Bee's Wing is the tune to play.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by John Culhane
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"rumored to be named after either the town in Scotland or the famous 19th century racehorse"
Funny things, rumours. "Beeswing" the "town" is not a town, but a hamlet/village in Dumfries & Galloway. It was named because the family (The Ordes) who owned the horse "Beeswing" bought the inn (Lochend) and renamed it after the said horse. Before that, the hamlet (probably qualifies as a village, as it has a kirk) was known as Lochend.
Anyway, nowt to do with our man James Hill. The horse also gave rise to a hotel (boozer) in Gateshead (Hill's adopted place of residence) being named the Bees Wing - later Beeswing. Woar James was a man for the boozers (being a publican) and it is more likely he named the tune after the boozer than directly after the horse. That's my rumour, anyway.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
An inverted Jimism there - the Gateshead (Felling) boozer originally had an apostrophe in its name - "The Bee's Wing".
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"Dirty Nellies Felling Gateshead
Formally known as The Beeswing
Closed at present"
http://www.gateshead-pubs.com/5730.html
http://www.gateshead-history.com/felling.html
"The Bee's Wing as it was first shown [sic], later The Beeswing Hotel then Durty Nellies and now houses refugees
Named after Bee's Wing, foaled in 1833, This great mare (nicknamed the miner's friend) won the Newcastle Gold Cup 6 times, the Doncaster Gold Cup 4 times and the Ascot Gold Cup in 1842."
http://www.gateshead-history.com/felling.html
Doesn't make the fingering any easier, though.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
@wyogal: "half-position" -- exactly.
Not being classicaly trained, myself, I think of B-flat on fiddle as "the lower First Position," or (if I'm honest, to myself):
"sort of like C, but with the pinky down a half step for the top note," or
"that key I sometimes needed to play in, when the tune on the record/radio was in that key" (I did a lot of by-ear noodling, in the early days--jazz saxophone was part of it, so B-flat happened).
All of which could be an argument for proper academic musical training, I suppose.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by John Galt
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Weejie, thanks for the history/geography.
And I'm not at all convinced that scales are necessary to keep intonation honed. Tunes work just fine, provided you're really listening.
Trevor wrote: "...intonation will always slip if you don't watch it, no matter how good and experienced a player you are."
Hmmm. I don't watch my intonation, I listen to it.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"When a tune presents a fork in the road, like whether to reach or shift, why not try all the options you can think of?"
This is certainly excellent advice, for all instruments. I just want to point out that there's no need to limit yourself to the options you can think of. You can also learn from your mistakes.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"Weejie, thanks for the history/geography"
You are welcome. Don't miss next week's exciting episode.
Did Hill also name "The Pear Tree" and "The Flying Dutchman" after Tyneside pubs, along with "The Hawk" and "The Beeswing"? Are there more?
Canny idea, anyway.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"The Bee's Wing isn't an easy tune for anyone. If you're still finding your way about the flat keys it might be best to leave it for a while and try some easier tunes in Bb before you totally frustrate yourself."
There aren't a great many tunes normally in Bb in this kind of music - and those that there are are often 'showpieces'. But why not try transposing some common tunes into other keys (C, F, Bb...), just to familiarise yourself with the finger positions? The Silver Spear is nice in Bb, The Sally Gardens in F, The Maid Behind The Bar in C... Transposing is good musical excercise generally - it is a good test of your familiarity with *how the tune goes*, as opposed to *how to play the tune*.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Without contradicting any of the good advice above, another approach can be to start with "less-difficult tunes in difficult keys". Mary Claire - to me, anyway - would be a tune in that sort of category. See comments with the tune.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/9626
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by lottiemaus
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Thanks for the helpful reply's. Should of mentioned it was the fiddle i was referring to
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Liam A
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
I second Mary Claire.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Boots MacAllen
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"There aren't a great many tunes normally in Bb in this kind of music..." unless you play a set of Bb pipes, of course. Or, indeed, play with a Bb piper.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by gam
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Or play the tunes of Marshall and Gow in their original keys.....the latter, especially.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Or the former...
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Or just both?
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Or either....
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Try a few slow jigs in F / Bb perhaps...
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4919
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/11210
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8652
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1108
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by SmashTheWindows
(as in, play them through slowly...)
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Well worth the effort, for such a lovely tune, though.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by Anew
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"eg C Major, A Minor will help with the F Note."
Learn the The Steeplechase and The Graf Spey in C. They'll get you use to playing C's and F's, notes you won't encounter in DMaj, and AMaj.
Or you could run through a 2 octave Bb scale 10 times a day for a week, that'll definitely help.
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Why stop at 2 octaves?
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"Why stop at 2 octaves?"
It's all I know how to do. I'm not classically trained on fiddle and the whole 4-string thing confuses me in terms of scales. Piano simpler. You don't have to think about when to switch strings, just start at "this" key and end on "that" key.
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by fiddlelearner
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"It's all I know how to do. I'm not classically trained on fiddle and the whole 4-string thing confuses me in terms of scales" fiddlelearner
I'm not a fiddler but when stretching the octaves to 3 for the accessible keys, it seems to be about the where and when to change fingers/position. Learning scales/tunes in a different key where your starting note is on a different finger would help I'd think re fingerings and therefore playing in the less played keys. There are only 4 combinations in the major scale that start on each of the four fingers, if you exclude the open notes, then it's just a case of identifying the starting finger as the scale position moves up and across the strings, that and when to move them.
Still, I've yet to meet a fiddler that can play 3 octave scales cleanly in any key other than G, classical players get special graded badges for doing so. G is as good a place to start as any, this is how I was shown how to do it;
Open G, 1st (finger) A, 2nd B, 3rd C. Open D 1st E 2nd F# then 1st finger up to high G on the D string to ready the hand for the next scale, which then continues on the D string up from the high G. 2nd finger A 3rd finger B, 4th C. Now to the A string, 1st finger D 2nd E Now the first finger moves up to F# and the second finger finishes the scale on the G. 3rd finger plays the A (12th fret octave of the open string) 4th B. Then to the E string; 1st C 2nd D 3rd E (12th fret octave of the open string) 4th F# and the same finger, the 4th for the top most G. Then down again.
Allow each root not to sound twice the duration of the others and it starts to sound quite structured.
Playing a fixed fret instrument I can only go as far as my frets allow, tough enough with frets, only 17 frets however leaves me a semitone short to fit Bd into 3 octaves, you fiddlers have no such excuse though, ha ha :b
Not a lot of tunes up there mind, but it's a laugh.
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by Solidmahog
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
That should be "root" note
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by Solidmahog
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
I've always shifted to third position on the A string, then 5th on the E. Each to his own.
Obviously the notes up at that end of the scale aren't frequently seen in trad outside of Scott Skinner tunes (e.g. the Mathematician Hornpipe), but it does help learn precise finger placement and playing each note in tune.
But then, so does playing tunes
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"aren't frequently seen in trad outside of Scott Skinner tunes "
I don't think they are seen at all. Perhaps that's why I don't consider Scott Skinner as "trad". Some of his tunes may have made it into the tradition - but "The Mathematician"? See "Party Pieces".
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by Weejie
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
It's not necessarily playing up the neck in 5th position thats of value, I think the value is being able to know where your going from any given place on the neck, down to an open or first/second fingered note, or up to a closed one etc.
Still as mentioned, it's all in the tunes, but a few closed scales across a couple of octaves under the belt and those flat or half position keys seem a lot less intimidating. If they open a few doors, why not? No need to pay scales for the rest of your life, but handy I'd have thought for developing good intonation on fretless instruments, no?
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by Solidmahog
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
"but "The Mathematician"? See "Party Pieces"." - point made
And whatever works, really. Scales, tunes, scales & tunes, so long as you get something out of it!
# Posted on January 22nd 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Off topic and bearing in mind that I'm not a fiddler (well, I'm not a fiddle player), I was under the impression that trad fiddle clung to first position. Is this wrong?
# Posted on January 23rd 2012 by greg sheils
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
@ greg -- this young lady doesn't have a problem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOSOTjkVAS0
# Posted on January 23rd 2012 by gam
Re: Fingering in difficult keys
Grab a mandolin and play it on that first. I blocked at playing tricky keys on the fiddle for years then spent a day playing through a few on the mandolin, after which they became so much easier on the fiddle - a great result for very little effort
# Posted on January 25th 2012 by debroos