Just wondering how different players choose to jot down a tune or 2 amongst friends. I'm recognizing the inherent problems associated with ubiquitous, widely broadcast tune notation when it is written for *all* to see & abuse.
Here's a few different ways in which I share tunes with my mates;
Played up to speed, in a set, picked up on the fly.
Phrase by phrase, sometimes in a session, but other times one on one.
Send a recording to my mates. Usually an mp3 file.
Something written down. But, what? I'm thinking the simpler the better. That being the old style, simple style of abcs which was around before Chris Walshaw & his lot began developing what is now considered THE abcs.
I imagine some of you never write out a tune for your mates. Fair play, but I'm hoping for responses to include different takes on sharing tunes with your mates.
Skreech, here's a small backstory on why this OP.
I was looking at the notes (in the Tunes category) for a particular hornpipe. The original submission had no broken rhythm and only 1 or 2 triplets. In the comments there are formal code-written abcs with broken rhythm throughout & more triplets.
Personally, I found the *bare bones* more useful as it wasn't leading me in one direction; then I decide when & where to play triplets, etc.
I pick up most of my tunes through repeated hearing in sessions, or listening to recordings. I will sometimes ask another player to slow down a particular phrase, to catch a detail - and I will sometimes do the same for them. But, very often, we refer one another to the recording we learned the tune from.
All of the above. When asked by one of my friends, I provide the tune in whatever format works best for them. That includes playing the tune slower, and/or phrase by phrase, recording, and also abcs, staff notation, tablature....
But we always end up playing the tune together and making tweaks as needed.
This sort of thing matters here in Montana. If we want a coherent session, it helps to get everyone on the same page, literally and figuratively. We enjoy enough diversity because everyone brings tunes to the session.
Both usually ~ something for the ears and heart to hear and feel and also the bones of a transcription for the eyes and mind to consider as well - usually ABCs, which I can do on any old scrap of paper or a beer coaster, and have, and sometimes just the first couple of bars worth is all that is required to help perk the memory. At many of the CCE gatherings, and other events and workshops, like the classes at Willie Week, they will teach the ears and also leave ABCs for people to copy down later. They're easy to come to terms with, to learn, and easy to read, and there's no fuss with staves, though I have gone to that bother too, or directed them to Concertina Dot Net's Tune-O-Tron ABCs-to-Dots converter.
As Will has said, "all of the above" ~ and then some...
I've also helped people to reach an understanding and appreciation for ABCs... As long as they've none of those silly hang ups about notation, it has never taken long to get a good start and a foot in...
This morning I wanted to write something on a bit of paper, there's always a bit of paper, it must have been very cold because I tried 4 ballpoint pens w/no success.
Should have grabbed the felt tip from the start. Worked like a charm.
Nicholas, the old abcs are a good resource (when needed), very compact & to the point!
It's Tuesday! My session is starting soon & I need to invade them. The hornpipe we'll run off the rails at some point is *represented* in the following comments; http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/478
I love it ;)
Of all the notation systems, I find abcs the most efficient. Unlike tab, they work for any instrument. Unlike staff notation, you don't need drawing skills or special software. Abcs email easily, you can jot them on a napkin, you can even convey them verbally. The only real requirement is that the person translating the abcs has to know where to find the notes, by name, on his or her instrument. Which is a useful bit of knowledge for any musician (though not strictly necessary).
All that said, I hardly ever give written notation of any kind to someone who isn't going to suffer multiple iterations of hearing me play the tunes in person. So the inky paper becomes just a memory aid.
I led a weekly tune learning session here for several years. Had to give it up due to a new job and too many other demands on my time. But nearly all of the local session players participated enough to greatly improve their abilities to pick up tunes by ear, a process I emphasized. That will never cease to pay dividends for all involved.
For me, writing a tune in staff notation is like drawing a picture of the tune, whilst writing a tune in abc is like writing a formula that generates the picture. I can write in abc (although I cannot read it fluently), but would only use it when there is no alternative - for example, to submit a tune on this site or generate sheet music with abc software, or when posting on a forum, such as this one, that does not support image attachments.
So, I would sooner scribble down a stave and dots in a session than use abc. But I would more likely just rely on repeated hearing to get a tune in my head - or perhaps make a recording, if I am not likely to hear the tune again for a long time.
FWIW:
For transmitting a tune, I rather like the visual aspect -
when I look at the dots on a staff, I can see, and point out, the pattern of notes, and the flow of the tune up and down the scale.
Perhaps with practice, the same would be true for ABCs, but for now, it's the dots for me.
It probably depends on what you're used to, but I'm the same as CMO - I can write stave without thinking about it - if the music jump a fifth, the next dot is two lines up, I don't even think about note names. To write ABC I have to finger through the tune, one note at a time.
One of the most impressive things I've seen was when I went to a festival 30 odd years ago (before pocket recorders) with a member of Blowzabella who was an avid tune collector - he could write dots in real time - he would sit at the side of the dance floor with his manuscript book. Listen to a tune the first time through, write it down during the second, and if they played it a third time he could check for errors. I've never seen anyone manage that with ABC.
"Listen to a tune the first time through, write it down during the second, and if they played it a third time he could check for errors. I've never seen anyone manage that with ABC."
Haven't you? I do that, if I happen to be somewhere without my Moleskine staff booklet. Otherwise, it goes straight in that. I have in the past lent my booklet to friends for them to get tunes out of. Just me being lazy and not bothering to teach it them. Bad, really.
The problem I have with writing down tunes in real time is that I need to hear each note in my head as I write it, and I can't physically write the notes as quickly as they are played (unless it's a slow tune), so I am hearing the tune at two different speeds at once.
"Just me being lazy and not bothering to teach it them. Bad, really."
I feel the same way, in part, about referring someone to a recording. But there is also justification inasmuch as there may be inaccuracies in the way I have learned it or, depending on how long ago I learned it, I may have developed my own way of playing it, notwithstanding my lack of credentials as a trad player. I would rather send them back to the source and let them adapt to my interpretation - or set me staight - than impose it upon them.
I wouldn't try to learn a tune phrase by phrase in a session. Do people actually do this? Sure, I can pick up easy ones on the fly but I would not ask someone to sit down and show me each phrase mid-session. I'd just feel under pressure, panic, and be unable to hear the notes. Like group classes at Willie Clancy Week except worse.
“I wouldn't try to learn a tune phrase by phrase ina session. Do people actually do this?"
I've seen it done, our tried at least. It was awful.
After about the fifth go through, I piled out my phone and had the guy who was trying to tech the tune record it, and mailed the file to the people who wanted to learn it.
I've learnt some tunes this way definitely. It's never been in the middle of a session. It's been times when a handful of players show up early & someone has a new tune. We've learnt the tune in each case. It's only been with 5 or less players. I certainly didn't feel there was pressure.
The time I'm thinking of was just as we were getting started - half a dozen people, we'd played a few sets, and suddenly it comes to a crawling halt while two people are trying to get the tune off this guy.
If I hear a tune that I don't know, I just listen and try to get the hang of it. I'm pretty sure I'll hear it again sooner or later, and then I'll get more of it, so I don't worry too much about getting the tune the first time I hear it.
I certainly wouldn't ask anyone to write down the notes for me - I'll just ask them to remember to play it again the next time.
Teaching a whole tune phrase by phrase in a session is a wonderful buzz kill. If the learners were unable to pick it up, and if the tune happened to be a really simple, common polka, that would be the perfect storm....
What's not uncommon is for a good player to get most of a tune on the fly and then if there's a lull at the end of the set ask for the bit he or she is missing. If the pub's not a howling mob, you can do it quietly while yer mates chat. Takes all of 10 seconds when players know what they're on about.
I can read/write both stave and abc, but I can only sight-read from the stave notation. But I can do that quite fast.and using a fully automated part of my brain leaving the rest available to think about what I am playing and listening to my sound and that of anyone else also playing along. This is not unusual amongst people brought up on staff notation from an early age, but I don't know anyone who can do it from abcs.
I guess it is a visual thing?
If I get ABCs then I will at least mentally convert them to staff notation, though often I actually go the whole hog and write them out again as dots.
If you write lots of music out by hand then get yourself a good sheet of blank staves and photocopy it lots of times. With that one can write things out really quite quickly. I recall that there was a pdf of a single blank lined page somewhere easy to find on the web - I am sure google can help. Remember, all you really need to get down is what notes come in what order and where the beats are. And naturally, whether it is a reel, jig etc.
If someone is sending me an mp3 then I would prefer it to be of them actually playing the tune themselves, or at least of that tune being played in the relevant session that I am trying to participate in. Some solo artist in a high flying, heavily worked on version is not really the best thing to use when trying to get the bare bones of the tune down in order to play along with others. But once I have the bare bones down _then_ I need some good examples of artistically inspiring playing to give me something to aim at. But by then notation is no longer needed anyway and I can usually find some good commercially available examples myself.
I understood that the OP was talking about a tune that he assumed the recipient had not heard, and that he, the OP would like to add to their common repertoire.
My point is that in this case, where notation (any) or MP3 etc. can be helpful then it is best if the notation or MP3 is as simple and unadorned as possible.
Where the difference between staff and abc notation matters for me personally is if someone shoves a piece of paper under my nose, or writes something up on a blackboard and then we start to try to play it, usually before I have picked it up properly and usually tunes that I have not previously heard before. (Sound familiar?)
Noting One's Mates
Noting One's Mates
Just wondering how different players choose to jot down a tune or 2 amongst friends. I'm recognizing the inherent problems associated with ubiquitous, widely broadcast tune notation when it is written for *all* to see & abuse.
Here's a few different ways in which I share tunes with my mates;
Played up to speed, in a set, picked up on the fly.
Phrase by phrase, sometimes in a session, but other times one on one.
Send a recording to my mates. Usually an mp3 file.
Something written down. But, what? I'm thinking the simpler the better. That being the old style, simple style of abcs which was around before Chris Walshaw & his lot began developing what is now considered THE abcs.
I imagine some of you never write out a tune for your mates. Fair play, but I'm hoping for responses to include different takes on sharing tunes with your mates.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Noting One's Mates
It's easier to read than ABCs, and a hell of a lot quicker to write.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by skreech
Re: Noting One's Mates
The first line of that post got lost. It was: 'Good old stave notation.'
We really do need an edit facility.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by skreech
Re: Noting One's Mates
Skreech, here's a small backstory on why this OP.
I was looking at the notes (in the Tunes category) for a particular hornpipe. The original submission had no broken rhythm and only 1 or 2 triplets. In the comments there are formal code-written abcs with broken rhythm throughout & more triplets.
Personally, I found the *bare bones* more useful as it wasn't leading me in one direction; then I decide when & where to play triplets, etc.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Noting One's Mates
I pick up most of my tunes through repeated hearing in sessions, or listening to recordings. I will sometimes ask another player to slow down a particular phrase, to catch a detail - and I will sometimes do the same for them. But, very often, we refer one another to the recording we learned the tune from.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Noting One's Mates
All of the above. When asked by one of my friends, I provide the tune in whatever format works best for them. That includes playing the tune slower, and/or phrase by phrase, recording, and also abcs, staff notation, tablature....
But we always end up playing the tune together and making tweaks as needed.
This sort of thing matters here in Montana. If we want a coherent session, it helps to get everyone on the same page, literally and figuratively. We enjoy enough diversity because everyone brings tunes to the session.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Noting One's Mates
I've learnt abc. Easy and quick to write out on an ordinary scrap of paper. Do any of my associates know it? NOT A SOUL !
Si I have to write tunes out (if ever i do so) on MSS the long way, or attempt slinky devious computer programmes that do the same.
I never realised that abc was fated to be the new Esperanto...but personally, I'm glad to have got the hang of it.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by nicholas
Re: Passing on tunes to ones mates
Both usually ~ something for the ears and heart to hear and feel and also the bones of a transcription for the eyes and mind to consider as well - usually ABCs, which I can do on any old scrap of paper or a beer coaster, and have, and sometimes just the first couple of bars worth is all that is required to help perk the memory. At many of the CCE gatherings, and other events and workshops, like the classes at Willie Week, they will teach the ears and also leave ABCs for people to copy down later. They're easy to come to terms with, to learn, and easy to read, and there's no fuss with staves, though I have gone to that bother too, or directed them to Concertina Dot Net's Tune-O-Tron ABCs-to-Dots converter.
As Will has said, "all of the above" ~ and then some...
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ceolachan
I've also helped people to reach an understanding and appreciation for ABCs... As long as they've none of those silly hang ups about notation, it has never taken long to get a good start and a foot in...
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ceolachan
Re: Noting One's Mates
This morning I wanted to write something on a bit of paper, there's always a bit of paper, it must have been very cold because I tried 4 ballpoint pens w/no success.
Should have grabbed the felt tip from the start. Worked like a charm.
Nicholas, the old abcs are a good resource (when needed), very compact & to the point!
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ain't fluffed
~
It's Tuesday! My session is starting soon & I need to invade them. The hornpipe we'll run off the rails at some point is *represented* in the following comments;
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/478
I love it ;)
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Noting One's Mates
Of all the notation systems, I find abcs the most efficient. Unlike tab, they work for any instrument. Unlike staff notation, you don't need drawing skills or special software. Abcs email easily, you can jot them on a napkin, you can even convey them verbally. The only real requirement is that the person translating the abcs has to know where to find the notes, by name, on his or her instrument. Which is a useful bit of knowledge for any musician (though not strictly necessary).
All that said, I hardly ever give written notation of any kind to someone who isn't going to suffer multiple iterations of hearing me play the tunes in person. So the inky paper becomes just a memory aid.
I led a weekly tune learning session here for several years. Had to give it up due to a new job and too many other demands on my time. But nearly all of the local session players participated enough to greatly improve their abilities to pick up tunes by ear, a process I emphasized. That will never cease to pay dividends for all involved.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Noting One's Mates
"I'm recognizing the inherent problems associated with ubiquitous, widely broadcast tune notation when it is written for *all* to see & abuse."
Don't tell anyone the names of the tunes either (except your "mates", of course). It only encourages them.
However, by all means you should allow strangers, newbies, and visitors to buy you drink as one's "mates" are usuall to miserable.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by Johnny Jay
Re: Noting One's Mates
*usually too miserable*, I meant to say.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by Johnny Jay
Re: Noting One's Mates
For me, writing a tune in staff notation is like drawing a picture of the tune, whilst writing a tune in abc is like writing a formula that generates the picture. I can write in abc (although I cannot read it fluently), but would only use it when there is no alternative - for example, to submit a tune on this site or generate sheet music with abc software, or when posting on a forum, such as this one, that does not support image attachments.
So, I would sooner scribble down a stave and dots in a session than use abc. But I would more likely just rely on repeated hearing to get a tune in my head - or perhaps make a recording, if I am not likely to hear the tune again for a long time.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Noting One's Mates
FWIW:
For transmitting a tune, I rather like the visual aspect -
when I look at the dots on a staff, I can see, and point out, the pattern of notes, and the flow of the tune up and down the scale.
Perhaps with practice, the same would be true for ABCs, but for now, it's the dots for me.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by Piece
Re: Noting One's Mates
It probably depends on what you're used to, but I'm the same as CMO - I can write stave without thinking about it - if the music jump a fifth, the next dot is two lines up, I don't even think about note names. To write ABC I have to finger through the tune, one note at a time.
One of the most impressive things I've seen was when I went to a festival 30 odd years ago (before pocket recorders) with a member of Blowzabella who was an avid tune collector - he could write dots in real time - he would sit at the side of the dance floor with his manuscript book. Listen to a tune the first time through, write it down during the second, and if they played it a third time he could check for errors. I've never seen anyone manage that with ABC.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by skreech
Re: Noting One's Mates
e-mail a pdf of the dots
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ...
Re: Noting One's Mates
It depends on the friend. Horses for courses and all that...
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by gam
Re: Noting One's Mates
"Listen to a tune the first time through, write it down during the second, and if they played it a third time he could check for errors. I've never seen anyone manage that with ABC."
Haven't you? I do that, if I happen to be somewhere without my Moleskine staff booklet. Otherwise, it goes straight in that. I have in the past lent my booklet to friends for them to get tunes out of. Just me being lazy and not bothering to teach it them. Bad, really.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ethical blend
Re: Noting One's Mates
The problem I have with writing down tunes in real time is that I need to hear each note in my head as I write it, and I can't physically write the notes as quickly as they are played (unless it's a slow tune), so I am hearing the tune at two different speeds at once.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Noting One's Mates
"Just me being lazy and not bothering to teach it them. Bad, really."
I feel the same way, in part, about referring someone to a recording. But there is also justification inasmuch as there may be inaccuracies in the way I have learned it or, depending on how long ago I learned it, I may have developed my own way of playing it, notwithstanding my lack of credentials as a trad player. I would rather send them back to the source and let them adapt to my interpretation - or set me staight - than impose it upon them.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Noting One's Mates
I'm with screetch on this one.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Noting One's Mates
I wouldn't try to learn a tune phrase by phrase in a session. Do people actually do this? Sure, I can pick up easy ones on the fly but I would not ask someone to sit down and show me each phrase mid-session. I'd just feel under pressure, panic, and be unable to hear the notes. Like group classes at Willie Clancy Week except worse.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Noting One's Mates
“I wouldn't try to learn a tune phrase by phrase ina session. Do people actually do this?"
I've seen it done, our tried at least. It was awful.
After about the fifth go through, I piled out my phone and had the guy who was trying to tech the tune record it, and mailed the file to the people who wanted to learn it.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Noting One's Mates
I've learnt some tunes this way definitely. It's never been in the middle of a session. It's been times when a handful of players show up early & someone has a new tune. We've learnt the tune in each case. It's only been with 5 or less players. I certainly didn't feel there was pressure.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Noting One's Mates
The time I'm thinking of was just as we were getting started - half a dozen people, we'd played a few sets, and suddenly it comes to a crawling halt while two people are trying to get the tune off this guy.
If I hear a tune that I don't know, I just listen and try to get the hang of it. I'm pretty sure I'll hear it again sooner or later, and then I'll get more of it, so I don't worry too much about getting the tune the first time I hear it.
I certainly wouldn't ask anyone to write down the notes for me - I'll just ask them to remember to play it again the next time.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Noting One's Mates
Jon, in your situation I wouldn't have wanted that either. Yes, I have experienced the music being interupted in similar ways & it's rubbish.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Noting One's Mates
Normally I carry around a keyboard and laptop so I can burn CDs of MIDI files to share.
# Posted on January 18th 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Noting One's Mates
Teaching a whole tune phrase by phrase in a session is a wonderful buzz kill. If the learners were unable to pick it up, and if the tune happened to be a really simple, common polka, that would be the perfect storm....
What's not uncommon is for a good player to get most of a tune on the fly and then if there's a lull at the end of the set ask for the bit he or she is missing. If the pub's not a howling mob, you can do it quietly while yer mates chat. Takes all of 10 seconds when players know what they're on about.
# Posted on January 19th 2012 by Will Harmon
Re: Noting One's Mates
*Teaching* a whole tune in a session can be a buzz kill.
Of course.
# Posted on January 19th 2012 by ain't fluffed
Re: Noting One's Mates
I can read/write both stave and abc, but I can only sight-read from the stave notation. But I can do that quite fast.and using a fully automated part of my brain leaving the rest available to think about what I am playing and listening to my sound and that of anyone else also playing along. This is not unusual amongst people brought up on staff notation from an early age, but I don't know anyone who can do it from abcs.
I guess it is a visual thing?
If I get ABCs then I will at least mentally convert them to staff notation, though often I actually go the whole hog and write them out again as dots.
If you write lots of music out by hand then get yourself a good sheet of blank staves and photocopy it lots of times. With that one can write things out really quite quickly. I recall that there was a pdf of a single blank lined page somewhere easy to find on the web - I am sure google can help. Remember, all you really need to get down is what notes come in what order and where the beats are. And naturally, whether it is a reel, jig etc.
If someone is sending me an mp3 then I would prefer it to be of them actually playing the tune themselves, or at least of that tune being played in the relevant session that I am trying to participate in. Some solo artist in a high flying, heavily worked on version is not really the best thing to use when trying to get the bare bones of the tune down in order to play along with others. But once I have the bare bones down _then_ I need some good examples of artistically inspiring playing to give me something to aim at. But by then notation is no longer needed anyway and I can usually find some good commercially available examples myself.
# Posted on January 20th 2012 by Crackpot
Re: Noting One's Mates
"I don't know anyone who can do it from abc"
No harder than staff notation, and no more productive.
"once I have the bare bones down _then_ I need some good examples of artistically inspiring playing to give me something to aim at"
Once you start hearing the tunes for yourself, this becomes less of an issue.
# Posted on January 20th 2012 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Noting One's Mates
I understood that the OP was talking about a tune that he assumed the recipient had not heard, and that he, the OP would like to add to their common repertoire.
My point is that in this case, where notation (any) or MP3 etc. can be helpful then it is best if the notation or MP3 is as simple and unadorned as possible.
Where the difference between staff and abc notation matters for me personally is if someone shoves a piece of paper under my nose, or writes something up on a blackboard and then we start to try to play it, usually before I have picked it up properly and usually tunes that I have not previously heard before. (Sound familiar?)
# Posted on January 20th 2012 by Crackpot
Re: Noting One's Mates
Jon, is it fair to say you object to any use of notation? I'm only asking because a couple of your comments suggest you're anti-dot.
# Posted on January 21st 2012 by ain't fluffed