I won't even conceal intentions, I'm a total troll. And my issue is ITM treatment of guitarists. FWIW, I can flatpick typical ITM melody as well as typical irish fiddler and due to other experience have an in-depth understanding (and feel) of harmonization. So I don't need their chauvinistic snobbery. Oh yeah, don't forget all my irish forebears that they don't have...
Gawd almighty, I love the irish music but I'll be damned if I don't hate the irish musicians, for whom it is a close run whether they are snobbier or stupider....
I think it is difficult to attract posters to your thread because English seems to be a second language for you. Native speakers probably don't understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps someone you know could help you with your grammar. Although I must say you are doing much better than me in another language. My oldest daughter is bilingual so I understand what you are up against. From your post I gather that you are angry at the way Irish trad guitarists like John Doyle are treated. No need to worry, my friend, I think John and many other fine guitar players are doing alright. That young guy in Danu is doing OK too. Thanks for your concern
Oh, I don't deny that I'm a jerk, but just not as big a one as the all to common fiddler who would be outraged should somebody publically critique his intonation, timing, execution, etc, but feels that it is perfectly ok to loudly/rudly call out his demands for comping style to perfect strangers in a session.
And then act like everyone is doing the guitarist a favor by letting him comp for the session.
So I rarely comp (you guys call it backing...) in a session, just flatpick melody. Everyone is a happier this way, but it still doesn't fix the intonation issues of the fiddler.
Advice to newbie troll from an old experienced trollster...
robatsu: Sory son! Your trolling is lame! This is from one of the oldest trolls in the business! I may even be an ex-troll now!
I know what you're trying to do but you haven't quite got the subtle balance between insult, patronization and appearing to have a profound knowledge of the subject that is smugly superior to anyone watching. You should have done your homework and read the forum for a month or two and then waded in.
Old territory this, but the reason why people treat guitarists that way is prefectly clear and easy to understand. Guitar is a superfluous instrument in sessions. Not that some don't make a very nice noise and behave very nicely, thereby contributing to the general crack. But it's not necessary in the way that it is necessary to have either or any of flute, fiddle, whistle, for instance.
I'm just re-stating to often-said and the bleedin' obvious here, mind ...
Ethical -
FWIW - I believe the REAL reason why ANY instrument is discouraged or banned is obvious, just IMHO.
Said instrument is not part of the over-all "sound" the other musicians wish to create/re-create. That simple, really.
Example: I love saxophone, really love it. But -
I flat-out hate it in any of what I consider traditional, and will never sit down at a session that regularly includes sax, nor, for that matter, a number of other instruments I perceive working and "evolving" their way into ITM currently.
I also will opine that a guitar is not, by nature, in any way a subtle thing when added to the mix at a traditional session. They do not "blend" nor "combine", they tend to command, dominate and permeate, even in the most artful of hands.
In summation: I do not think it is right or wrong, good or evil, postitive nor negative. It is simply wanted or un-wanted. And I will aggressively defend anyone's right to want or not want any damn thing they encounter, so long as they remain civilised about it.
(That includes me, when caught over-stating or generalising unfairly)
Just my twa farthings, FWIW.
PS:
A thought for Robatsu, perhaps - if you know we commonly use the term "backer" and continue to use "comp", that suggests something to me about your mind-set and character. Perhaps you might contemplate rigity in the light of flexibity.
Interesting observation - apparently when a person announces they are a troll before launching into a rant, the replies they get are thoughtful and curtious. This, however, stands in stark comparison to those who opinine without proper introductions and are summarily slagged to bits.
I must make a note of this for future reference...
Dammit! My post disappeared again! Basically, Piece, I was thanking you for your very helpful and thoughtful expansion of my own poor effort into a point of some substance, interest and importance. Reducible to "horses for courses".
EB:
No intention here of correction or "expansion" n your hardly "poor" efforts. 'Twas just my own particular bent on the subject. I admittedly WAS fishing a bit to see if we were in any agreement.
Re. "horses for courses" -
is that anything like "different ships, different splices"?
Yeah, we're pretty much in agreement, I think, Piece.
Those two sayings are subtly different. "Horses for courses" simply refers to that fact that some horses will perform better on, say, heavy going whilst others may perform better on a light, hard, fast, dry course. It's kind of factual, sort of like a milder form of saying that square pegs fit better in square holes and round ones fit better in round ones. "Different ships, different splices" is similar, but, to me at least, has an undertone of compliance with the rules of a regime rather than unavoidable differences of nature.
Either saying could apply to different instruments being more or less suited to a particular session. But the latter saying would be more sinister and imply, to me, the operation of a degree of snobbery in some way.
It's a fact that you need a fiddle, or a flute, or some naturally melody-inclined instrument for a trad session to be what it is, and that guitars are not necessary because they are not naturally melody-inclined instruments. But it would be a value judgement to say that guitars are not, in any circumstances, welcome at a particular session.
To go along with that last paragraph;
Someone 6 or 7 months ago posted a link ( I won't re-quote it ) to a youtube performance of a band in a bar. The general response here was pretty negative, as the band had 1 melody instrument, 2 guitars AND a bass ( acoustic/inaudible ) guitar, and an overloud bodhran. I posted on youtube that "an ITM site" ( no names, no packdrill ) reckoned this was pretty naf all round, but no doubt they had a big local following amongst the youth of the parish.
Someone's just caught up with this, and called me a fool ! I can live with that, but I go along with the general idea that 1 guitar MAY be ok, but 2 in any ITM situation is superfluous, and one would be better of generally with more melody instruments of any kind, and duplicating rhythm instruments is a total no-no.
Robatsu, but by naming just fiddlers and melody players, are you not discriminating against other musicians? I, for one, am a guitar player who hates the guitar noise interfering with tunes - to the point that I feel no restraint to shoo the perpetrators off. Of course, to be consistent with my own taste, I stopped playing at sessions completely. These days, I mainly go there to listen - and to shoo off.
So when I read your initial post, I felt a bit disappointed by your penchant for cliches - as you fail to account for the chauvinistic snobbery of other musicians, you could injure the feelings of many chauvinistic snobs who were not lucky enough to learn to play this music on *proper* instruments.
"...guitars are ... not naturally melody-inclined instruments..."
I don't think that is true. It is just that guitars are most often not used that way. The point is, you can also strum chords on a guitar, which you can't do on a flute, and not easily on a fiddle (why would you, anyway?), I think it is just as easy, if not easier, to play melody on guitar as it is on flute and fiddle (I have tried all three).
Of course guitars can be wonderfully melodic. And of course you can play Irish music on them - you can play irish music on anything capable of playing a tune. And of course they are not necessary - though as an argument for not playing them that's about as useless as advising someone not to wear clothes. (Casting no aspersion of the ubiquity of clothes, of course)
However, the fact does remain that irish diddley music works better on the instruments it was designed on. The guitar is indeed a tremendous thing, but it's simply not capable of those articulations available on the whistle, pipes, fiddle and flute that were developed specifically on those instruments and in this music. And it's unfortunate that when someone boasts "I can flatpick typical ITM melody as well as typical irish fiddler" they must be deaf and ignorant of this vital point.
"of course they are not necessary - though as an argument for not playing them that's about as useless as advising someone not to wear clothes."
Funny, but I could have sworn it was an argument you yourself had used in the past, but I could easily be mistaken in that.
But, as far as I can see, it's not an argument anyone has used in this thread at all, so it's a straw man in any case.
I like the distinction you draw between something capable of playing a tune, and of being 'melodic', and something capable of playing the typical trad Irish articulations. Although I have heard people faking such articulations wonderfully well on instruments not naturally suited to them, including guitar, and producing brilliant results in so doing.
I've been playing Irish trad on guitar for some time, and have abandoned backing in favor of a style I adapted from Mississippian blues guitar. The beat is thumped out quietly by the thumb on the low E and D strings, and the melody is fingerpicked up higher simultaneously. This almost sounds like quiet drum with an accordian doing melody when played on an old parlor guitar like I have (late 1800s).
This style of playing can make the fingerstyle guitar sound like a variety of instruments when one doesn't have the money to get those instruments. Fits in well with the sessions
Just wonder whether the poster was suspended for a) announcing he was a troll, b) defending guitarists, c) attacking common fiddlers as out of tune or d) generally faking it?
I would say the man is interpretting (don't we all?) a trad tune with a fine respectful hand on an instrument other than one suited for session music, ie. dance tunes and such.
Nothing fake about that, nothing at all.
It is very good music, IMHO.
So is a Sousa march on glass harp.
So, the question might be a bit of apples and oranges, as regards the subject.
For I do not see the guitar under attack in this thread. I see no one suggesting seriously that there ought to be a law against guitars at sessions.
However, I DO see some here stating their personal preference. Rather civilly, I might add.
Not bad.
I am a lifelong guitarist who also plays melody instruments on ITM. The guitar simply has a way of dominating the rhythm landscape. And if any guitarist is 1/100 behind the beat, ALL the melody players have to struggle to pull it together. This is why I find that very very few guitarists out there (in average session land) actually play on time and at a proper volume. And sorry, flatpicking your way through a session is rediculous. It's interesting here and there but forget it as a regular thing. I feel the same way about flatpicked tunes on bouzoukis too, and I can do both ok. Just don't because it doesn't fit.
More Guitars/Backers Poofery
More Guitars/Backers Poofery
I won't even conceal intentions, I'm a total troll. And my issue is ITM treatment of guitarists. FWIW, I can flatpick typical ITM melody as well as typical irish fiddler and due to other experience have an in-depth understanding (and feel) of harmonization. So I don't need their chauvinistic snobbery. Oh yeah, don't forget all my irish forebears that they don't have...
Gawd almighty, I love the irish music but I'll be damned if I don't hate the irish musicians, for whom it is a close run whether they are snobbier or stupider....
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by robatsu
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
I think it is difficult to attract posters to your thread because English seems to be a second language for you. Native speakers probably don't understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps someone you know could help you with your grammar. Although I must say you are doing much better than me in another language. My oldest daughter is bilingual so I understand what you are up against. From your post I gather that you are angry at the way Irish trad guitarists like John Doyle are treated. No need to worry, my friend, I think John and many other fine guitar players are doing alright. That young guy in Danu is doing OK too. Thanks for your concern
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by shanty
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
It's worse for bodhran players, just ignore them and play what the voices in your head tell you to play.
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by mcknowall
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Oh, I don't deny that I'm a jerk, but just not as big a one as the all to common fiddler who would be outraged should somebody publically critique his intonation, timing, execution, etc, but feels that it is perfectly ok to loudly/rudly call out his demands for comping style to perfect strangers in a session.
And then act like everyone is doing the guitarist a favor by letting him comp for the session.
So I rarely comp (you guys call it backing...) in a session, just flatpick melody. Everyone is a happier this way, but it still doesn't fix the intonation issues of the fiddler.
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by robatsu
Advice to newbie troll from an old experienced trollster...
robatsu: Sory son! Your trolling is lame! This is from one of the oldest trolls in the business! I may even be an ex-troll now!
I know what you're trying to do but you haven't quite got the subtle balance between insult, patronization and appearing to have a profound knowledge of the subject that is smugly superior to anyone watching. You should have done your homework and read the forum for a month or two and then waded in.
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by yhaalhouse
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
I obviously missed something ...
Old territory this, but the reason why people treat guitarists that way is prefectly clear and easy to understand. Guitar is a superfluous instrument in sessions. Not that some don't make a very nice noise and behave very nicely, thereby contributing to the general crack. But it's not necessary in the way that it is necessary to have either or any of flute, fiddle, whistle, for instance.
I'm just re-stating to often-said and the bleedin' obvious here, mind ...
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by ethical blend
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Ethical -
FWIW - I believe the REAL reason why ANY instrument is discouraged or banned is obvious, just IMHO.
Said instrument is not part of the over-all "sound" the other musicians wish to create/re-create. That simple, really.
Example: I love saxophone, really love it. But -
I flat-out hate it in any of what I consider traditional, and will never sit down at a session that regularly includes sax, nor, for that matter, a number of other instruments I perceive working and "evolving" their way into ITM currently.
I also will opine that a guitar is not, by nature, in any way a subtle thing when added to the mix at a traditional session. They do not "blend" nor "combine", they tend to command, dominate and permeate, even in the most artful of hands.
In summation: I do not think it is right or wrong, good or evil, postitive nor negative. It is simply wanted or un-wanted. And I will aggressively defend anyone's right to want or not want any damn thing they encounter, so long as they remain civilised about it.
(That includes me, when caught over-stating or generalising unfairly)
Just my twa farthings, FWIW.
PS:
A thought for Robatsu, perhaps - if you know we commonly use the term "backer" and continue to use "comp", that suggests something to me about your mind-set and character. Perhaps you might contemplate rigity in the light of flexibity.
Good luck, and a Happy New Year.
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by Piece
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Interesting observation - apparently when a person announces they are a troll before launching into a rant, the replies they get are thoughtful and curtious. This, however, stands in stark comparison to those who opinine without proper introductions and are summarily slagged to bits.
I must make a note of this for future reference...
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Dammit! My post disappeared again! Basically, Piece, I was thanking you for your very helpful and thoughtful expansion of my own poor effort into a point of some substance, interest and importance. Reducible to "horses for courses".
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by ethical blend
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Yawn................................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by Backer
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
a most trenchant observation, mr. eejit. my compliments -- and happy new year to all.
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by 'tinamatt
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
?
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by Breifne
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Contemplate rigity in the light of flexibity!
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by michaelr
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
EB:
No intention here of correction or "expansion" n your hardly "poor" efforts. 'Twas just my own particular bent on the subject. I admittedly WAS fishing a bit to see if we were in any agreement.
Re. "horses for courses" -
is that anything like "different ships, different splices"?
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Piece
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Yeah, we're pretty much in agreement, I think, Piece.
Those two sayings are subtly different. "Horses for courses" simply refers to that fact that some horses will perform better on, say, heavy going whilst others may perform better on a light, hard, fast, dry course. It's kind of factual, sort of like a milder form of saying that square pegs fit better in square holes and round ones fit better in round ones. "Different ships, different splices" is similar, but, to me at least, has an undertone of compliance with the rules of a regime rather than unavoidable differences of nature.
Either saying could apply to different instruments being more or less suited to a particular session. But the latter saying would be more sinister and imply, to me, the operation of a degree of snobbery in some way.
It's a fact that you need a fiddle, or a flute, or some naturally melody-inclined instrument for a trad session to be what it is, and that guitars are not necessary because they are not naturally melody-inclined instruments. But it would be a value judgement to say that guitars are not, in any circumstances, welcome at a particular session.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by ethical blend
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
To go along with that last paragraph;
Someone 6 or 7 months ago posted a link ( I won't re-quote it ) to a youtube performance of a band in a bar. The general response here was pretty negative, as the band had 1 melody instrument, 2 guitars AND a bass ( acoustic/inaudible ) guitar, and an overloud bodhran. I posted on youtube that "an ITM site" ( no names, no packdrill ) reckoned this was pretty naf all round, but no doubt they had a big local following amongst the youth of the parish.
Someone's just caught up with this, and called me a fool ! I can live with that, but I go along with the general idea that 1 guitar MAY be ok, but 2 in any ITM situation is superfluous, and one would be better of generally with more melody instruments of any kind, and duplicating rhythm instruments is a total no-no.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Guernsey Pete
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Robatsu, but by naming just fiddlers and melody players, are you not discriminating against other musicians? I, for one, am a guitar player who hates the guitar noise interfering with tunes - to the point that I feel no restraint to shoo the perpetrators off. Of course, to be consistent with my own taste, I stopped playing at sessions completely. These days, I mainly go there to listen - and to shoo off.
So when I read your initial post, I felt a bit disappointed by your penchant for cliches - as you fail to account for the chauvinistic snobbery of other musicians, you could injure the feelings of many chauvinistic snobs who were not lucky enough to learn to play this music on *proper* instruments.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Janek
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
"...guitars are ... not naturally melody-inclined instruments..."
I don't think that is true. It is just that guitars are most often not used that way. The point is, you can also strum chords on a guitar, which you can't do on a flute, and not easily on a fiddle (why would you, anyway?), I think it is just as easy, if not easier, to play melody on guitar as it is on flute and fiddle (I have tried all three).
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
"guitars are not necessary because they are not naturally melody-inclined instruments"
Absurd.
Absolutely absurd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiZh35nllDY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIzKsNIRrV4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=209iCNd-7Q0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw2bRk-NiC4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJZre_GXOlw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwWfpwoMOBg&feature=related
I recommend listening to more guitarists and guitar music.
Good luck.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Piece
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Of course guitars can be wonderfully melodic. And of course you can play Irish music on them - you can play irish music on anything capable of playing a tune. And of course they are not necessary - though as an argument for not playing them that's about as useless as advising someone not to wear clothes. (Casting no aspersion of the ubiquity of clothes, of course)
However, the fact does remain that irish diddley music works better on the instruments it was designed on. The guitar is indeed a tremendous thing, but it's simply not capable of those articulations available on the whistle, pipes, fiddle and flute that were developed specifically on those instruments and in this music. And it's unfortunate that when someone boasts "I can flatpick typical ITM melody as well as typical irish fiddler" they must be deaf and ignorant of this vital point.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by ...
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
sorry
Casting no aspersion towards the ubiquity of clothes, of course
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by ...
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
"of course they are not necessary - though as an argument for not playing them that's about as useless as advising someone not to wear clothes."
Funny, but I could have sworn it was an argument you yourself had used in the past, but I could easily be mistaken in that.
But, as far as I can see, it's not an argument anyone has used in this thread at all, so it's a straw man in any case.
I like the distinction you draw between something capable of playing a tune, and of being 'melodic', and something capable of playing the typical trad Irish articulations. Although I have heard people faking such articulations wonderfully well on instruments not naturally suited to them, including guitar, and producing brilliant results in so doing.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by ethical blend
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
I've been playing Irish trad on guitar for some time, and have abandoned backing in favor of a style I adapted from Mississippian blues guitar. The beat is thumped out quietly by the thumb on the low E and D strings, and the melody is fingerpicked up higher simultaneously. This almost sounds like quiet drum with an accordian doing melody when played on an old parlor guitar like I have (late 1800s).
This style of playing can make the fingerstyle guitar sound like a variety of instruments when one doesn't have the money to get those instruments. Fits in well with the sessions
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by darach
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Yes, you often hear people faking articulations wonderfully well on instruments not naturally suited to them and great it is too.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by ...
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
And before the "modern" fiddle, whistle and flute....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pSk3uZfVHs
Aye - it's not wire strung but....
Then the newbies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIo2tvIizCo&feature=related
Is this faking or adapting?
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Weejie
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
I was gonna mention tony, he's the master of faking it. Great stuff
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by ...
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
Just wonder whether the poster was suspended for a) announcing he was a troll, b) defending guitarists, c) attacking common fiddlers as out of tune or d) generally faking it?
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Rob
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
"Is this faking or adapting?"
I would say the man is interpretting (don't we all?) a trad tune with a fine respectful hand on an instrument other than one suited for session music, ie. dance tunes and such.
Nothing fake about that, nothing at all.
It is very good music, IMHO.
So is a Sousa march on glass harp.
So, the question might be a bit of apples and oranges, as regards the subject.
For I do not see the guitar under attack in this thread. I see no one suggesting seriously that there ought to be a law against guitars at sessions.
However, I DO see some here stating their personal preference. Rather civilly, I might add.
Not bad.
# Posted on January 3rd 2012 by Piece
Re: More Guitars/Backers Poofery
I am a lifelong guitarist who also plays melody instruments on ITM. The guitar simply has a way of dominating the rhythm landscape. And if any guitarist is 1/100 behind the beat, ALL the melody players have to struggle to pull it together. This is why I find that very very few guitarists out there (in average session land) actually play on time and at a proper volume. And sorry, flatpicking your way through a session is rediculous. It's interesting here and there but forget it as a regular thing. I feel the same way about flatpicked tunes on bouzoukis too, and I can do both ok. Just don't because it doesn't fit.
# Posted on January 3rd 2012 by saltcast