Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
I am curious as to the reasoning of the B/C Chromatic accordion being the most prevalent tuning in America (and Ireland) rather than C#/D, or D/G diatonic as the English use for that matter. There must be social or cultural reasons for it being so, rather than the reasoning of "there's more instructional material for the B/C." Any one have a historical perspective on this? My apologies if this debate has been discussed ad nauseam.
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
Hi Don -
This is an interesting question - I started on BC simply because it was the instrument I first got my hands on. I tried to make some sense of the BC vs. C#/D debate before buying but a BC box came a long and it didn't seem like that big of a deal dropping down to the outer row for an F# so I went with it.
I think you're right though - one of the big factors might be competition success in Ireland - new box players go hear other really good box players and want to learn from them and emulate them, so they use the same system -
What is the percentage of BC vs. C#/D at the competitive events? Are most players BC at the competitions?
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
The balance is slowly shifting from B/C to C#/D apparently, this is largely thanks to the influence of great box players like Dermot Byrne of Altan and Máirtín O'Connor.
I myself went for a C#/D because I picked up a D/G first and wanted to play Irish on it so learnt lots of tunes just on the D row so that the transition to C#/D wouldn't be as big as if I went for B/C after D/G.
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
On the B/C system none of the fiddle keys GDA are can be played wholly on a single row, unlike all the other common tunings C#/D, D/D# and D/G.
This means that the player can never play in melodeon style. He or she must develop a playing technique that can consistently overcome the tendency for the B/C box's own strange dynamics to determine the stress of individual notes, and allow him/her to impose at will the appropriate pulse at precisely the intended points in the tune.
Perhaps the players who have to do this play better overall and win more often
just a theory, and anyway I don't think that competitions are always reliable guides. Though I play B/C myself I'll take my hat off to anyone who can get a tune out of a C#/D or any of the other tunings for that matter
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
In the 1950s anyone and everyone wanted a box tuned in B/C#. There were the odd exception of course. I think the first box player I came across with a C#D box was in London early sixties and he dropped out every time we played any tunes, mostly waltzes of course in C.
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
You can't play in the predominate session keys on one row, but the way a lot of the runs work out on the two rows, you can do a lot of stuff without changing directions, which makes things smoother.
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
quite true, Al, but you have to be able to make it smooth or jumpy as you wish, not as the coincidences of the melody and the box's breathing pattern might dictate
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
Speaking as a failed B/C attempter, I suspect it of being devised to alter entirely and irreversibly the way someone's brain works as he or she proceeds towards the mastery of the instrument.
Is there any remarkable / weird / shocking tendency or ability which B/C players in common have ever been found to have, to a notable degree? If not, surely there ought to be (other than look outlandish and drink a lot, that is).
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
it is not b/c "chromatic" versus c#/d "diatonic." BOTH b/c and c#/d are BISONORIC systems featuring two scale rows SEMITONE APART, and both are FULLY CHROMATIC, i.e., they contain all notes in the 12-tone scale.
this is different from systems feturing two scale rows a FIFTH apart, i.e., "QUINT" boxes, which are usually NOT fully chromatic, i.e., G/D, which does not contain all 12 tones. G/D actually IS diatonic. So is the one-row melodeon, which only features 7 tones, and so are most harmonicas (i think).
both b/c and c#/d are often incorrectly called "diatonic" by people who really mean, "bisonoric." inaccuracies also occur due to the fact that the UNISONORIC button accordion, also fully chromatic, is actually CALLED "chromatic button accordion" (CBA). but the semitone boxes including C#/D are also fully chromatic. they are not often played in all keys, because some keys are counterintuitive and a pain in the keester to learn, but they have that capacity.
as for why b/c is/was more widely used, i believe that is because the placement of its semitone notes has the main irish dance keys (D, A, G, and their relative minors) falling "across the rows," allowing for more notes in one direction and thus five-note rolls all in one direction, which box players during the mid-20th century, who had inferiority complexes about playing accordion, thought would give them the ability to show off more neck-teek, garnering more respect like that fiddlers get. however, on C#/D, these very same keys are played "on the row" and are LESS smooth, thus giving great push-pull for dance, and winning hearts and minds, if not fleadh competitions....(C#/D has the exact same number of keys allowing for more smoothness and more five-note roll opps, but they are DIFFERENT keys, see?)
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
as someone who does not like five-note rolls or other loud ornaments on free-reed instruments, and prefers the cleaner style often stereotyped as typical of c#/d, i still like b/c the best, and love the cleaner, old-style-sounding b/c players.
on b/c, you can play in D, A, G, and their relative minors "across the rows." then, in a C sesh, you can play in C, F, and their relative minors "on the row" (push-pull style) on your C row. then, in a B sesh, if you've got the stuffing to learn those keys, you can play in the B-sesh keys "on the row" on your B row. in short, b/c is the box on which BOTH rows are the scales of two different tonic keys used for flat sessions. C, and B. so when you play those, you're "on the row," with an older, push-pull sound. then you are smoother and more fluid for D, A, etc. I love a fluid "long-bow" articulation, and a major and eminor are almost all in one direction on b/c.
c#/D will finger the same number of key scales "push-pull," and the same number "smooth and flowing"---it's just different ones, and i like the b/c "package" much, much better....
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
My first and only box is a B/C because the fella I took lessons from (won't drop his name here) told me that's what I should get. Wonder if this has something to do with it?
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
Sounds like we have alot of C#/D players writing in
I play B/C but have tried C#D. (If you know how to transpose moving from one box to he other is not daunting). From the players I know who include players of the B/C and C#/D persuasions, the reason is in ceemonster's last sentence of the second paragraph above.
B/C is more fluid. C#/D sounds 'punchier'. Individual preference has a lot to do with it. Personally, I find B/C provides more flexibility for a broader range of keys. And it does provide smoother fingering which helps phrasing (God forbid my freinds hear me pontificating on phrasing!)
But the more good players I hear, it's the player and not the box that makes the Music.
Best advice i ever got was- "pick a box and play".
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
[B/C is more fluid. C#/D sounds 'punchier']
just to belabor it as incessantly as possible, b/c is only "more fluid" in its "across the rows" keys. b/c is "punchier" in its "on the row" keys, C and F and relative minors for its C row, B and E and their relative minors for its B row.
c#/d is the one that is "more fluid" in ITS "across the rows" keys, but is "punchier" in ITS "on the row" keys. people have gotten the wrong idea that it is "punchier" in some absolute sense because its "on the row" keys are the most used sesh/dance music keys, D and A and G and their relative minors. on b/c, those keys are "across the row" keys and thus "more fluid."
not only do most newbies not get this, many box players apparently don't either. but realizing it and understanding it is the key to figuring out which you want to play. i personally like the idea of one box that will do it all, sometimes "on the row" and other times "across the rows." but hey, some b/c players keep a c#/d around for when they're in the mood to play D and A "punchy" style "on the row." and some dyed-in-the-woold c#/d "on the row" players keep a b/c around to play in the flat keys "on the row" in C seshes and B seshes.
Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
I am curious as to the reasoning of the B/C Chromatic accordion being the most prevalent tuning in America (and Ireland) rather than C#/D, or D/G diatonic as the English use for that matter. There must be social or cultural reasons for it being so, rather than the reasoning of "there's more instructional material for the B/C." Any one have a historical perspective on this? My apologies if this debate has been discussed ad nauseam.
Don
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by gdhow62
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
Hi Don -
This is an interesting question - I started on BC simply because it was the instrument I first got my hands on. I tried to make some sense of the BC vs. C#/D debate before buying but a BC box came a long and it didn't seem like that big of a deal dropping down to the outer row for an F# so I went with it.
I think you're right though - one of the big factors might be competition success in Ireland - new box players go hear other really good box players and want to learn from them and emulate them, so they use the same system -
What is the percentage of BC vs. C#/D at the competitive events? Are most players BC at the competitions?
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Reeds Munson
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
The balance is slowly shifting from B/C to C#/D apparently, this is largely thanks to the influence of great box players like Dermot Byrne of Altan and Máirtín O'Connor.
I myself went for a C#/D because I picked up a D/G first and wanted to play Irish on it so learnt lots of tunes just on the D row so that the transition to C#/D wouldn't be as big as if I went for B/C after D/G.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
On the B/C system none of the fiddle keys GDA are can be played wholly on a single row, unlike all the other common tunings C#/D, D/D# and D/G.
This means that the player can never play in melodeon style. He or she must develop a playing technique that can consistently overcome the tendency for the B/C box's own strange dynamics to determine the stress of individual notes, and allow him/her to impose at will the appropriate pulse at precisely the intended points in the tune.
Perhaps the players who have to do this play better overall and win more often
just a theory, and anyway I don't think that competitions are always reliable guides. Though I play B/C myself I'll take my hat off to anyone who can get a tune out of a C#/D or any of the other tunings for that matter
happy new year
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by millionyears_bc
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
I thought it was something to do with Paddy O'Brien, his style and influence etc.? Playing more like a fiddle.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
In the 1950s anyone and everyone wanted a box tuned in B/C#. There were the odd exception of course. I think the first box player I came across with a C#D box was in London early sixties and he dropped out every time we played any tunes, mostly waltzes of course in C.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Free Reed
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
You can't play in the predominate session keys on one row, but the way a lot of the runs work out on the two rows, you can do a lot of stuff without changing directions, which makes things smoother.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
quite true, Al, but you have to be able to make it smooth or jumpy as you wish, not as the coincidences of the melody and the box's breathing pattern might dictate
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by millionyears_bc
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
Speaking as a failed B/C attempter, I suspect it of being devised to alter entirely and irreversibly the way someone's brain works as he or she proceeds towards the mastery of the instrument.
Is there any remarkable / weird / shocking tendency or ability which B/C players in common have ever been found to have, to a notable degree? If not, surely there ought to be (other than look outlandish and drink a lot, that is).
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by nicholas
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
it is not b/c "chromatic" versus c#/d "diatonic." BOTH b/c and c#/d are BISONORIC systems featuring two scale rows SEMITONE APART, and both are FULLY CHROMATIC, i.e., they contain all notes in the 12-tone scale.
this is different from systems feturing two scale rows a FIFTH apart, i.e., "QUINT" boxes, which are usually NOT fully chromatic, i.e., G/D, which does not contain all 12 tones. G/D actually IS diatonic. So is the one-row melodeon, which only features 7 tones, and so are most harmonicas (i think).
both b/c and c#/d are often incorrectly called "diatonic" by people who really mean, "bisonoric." inaccuracies also occur due to the fact that the UNISONORIC button accordion, also fully chromatic, is actually CALLED "chromatic button accordion" (CBA). but the semitone boxes including C#/D are also fully chromatic. they are not often played in all keys, because some keys are counterintuitive and a pain in the keester to learn, but they have that capacity.
as for why b/c is/was more widely used, i believe that is because the placement of its semitone notes has the main irish dance keys (D, A, G, and their relative minors) falling "across the rows," allowing for more notes in one direction and thus five-note rolls all in one direction, which box players during the mid-20th century, who had inferiority complexes about playing accordion, thought would give them the ability to show off more neck-teek, garnering more respect like that fiddlers get. however, on C#/D, these very same keys are played "on the row" and are LESS smooth, thus giving great push-pull for dance, and winning hearts and minds, if not fleadh competitions....(C#/D has the exact same number of keys allowing for more smoothness and more five-note roll opps, but they are DIFFERENT keys, see?)
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by ceemonster
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
as someone who does not like five-note rolls or other loud ornaments on free-reed instruments, and prefers the cleaner style often stereotyped as typical of c#/d, i still like b/c the best, and love the cleaner, old-style-sounding b/c players.
on b/c, you can play in D, A, G, and their relative minors "across the rows." then, in a C sesh, you can play in C, F, and their relative minors "on the row" (push-pull style) on your C row. then, in a B sesh, if you've got the stuffing to learn those keys, you can play in the B-sesh keys "on the row" on your B row. in short, b/c is the box on which BOTH rows are the scales of two different tonic keys used for flat sessions. C, and B. so when you play those, you're "on the row," with an older, push-pull sound. then you are smoother and more fluid for D, A, etc. I love a fluid "long-bow" articulation, and a major and eminor are almost all in one direction on b/c.
c#/D will finger the same number of key scales "push-pull," and the same number "smooth and flowing"---it's just different ones, and i like the b/c "package" much, much better....
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by ceemonster
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
My first and only box is a B/C because the fella I took lessons from (won't drop his name here) told me that's what I should get. Wonder if this has something to do with it?
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by croxton
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
Sounds like we have alot of C#/D players writing in
I play B/C but have tried C#D. (If you know how to transpose moving from one box to he other is not daunting). From the players I know who include players of the B/C and C#/D persuasions, the reason is in ceemonster's last sentence of the second paragraph above.
B/C is more fluid. C#/D sounds 'punchier'. Individual preference has a lot to do with it. Personally, I find B/C provides more flexibility for a broader range of keys. And it does provide smoother fingering which helps phrasing (God forbid my freinds hear me pontificating on phrasing!)
But the more good players I hear, it's the player and not the box that makes the Music.
Best advice i ever got was- "pick a box and play".
# Posted on January 3rd 2012 by zippydw
Re: Why is the B/C Chromatic the most prevalent system?
[B/C is more fluid. C#/D sounds 'punchier']
just to belabor it as incessantly as possible, b/c is only "more fluid" in its "across the rows" keys. b/c is "punchier" in its "on the row" keys, C and F and relative minors for its C row, B and E and their relative minors for its B row.
c#/d is the one that is "more fluid" in ITS "across the rows" keys, but is "punchier" in ITS "on the row" keys. people have gotten the wrong idea that it is "punchier" in some absolute sense because its "on the row" keys are the most used sesh/dance music keys, D and A and G and their relative minors. on b/c, those keys are "across the row" keys and thus "more fluid."
not only do most newbies not get this, many box players apparently don't either. but realizing it and understanding it is the key to figuring out which you want to play. i personally like the idea of one box that will do it all, sometimes "on the row" and other times "across the rows." but hey, some b/c players keep a c#/d around for when they're in the mood to play D and A "punchy" style "on the row." and some dyed-in-the-woold c#/d "on the row" players keep a b/c around to play in the flat keys "on the row" in C seshes and B seshes.
# Posted on January 4th 2012 by ceemonster