As a module in uni I am studying irish trad and for our final assignment I am looking at the differences between the violin and fiddle (if there is any) and am looking for opinions from others on the topic. Things to think about are how the instrument is held, how the bow is held and used, do you feel there is more freedom in how the traditional fiddle is played in comparison to the rigid classical violin, and anything else you may feel important to the topic.
I believe in Classical Violin
- you must stand when the conductor arrives
- you are required to bang your bow against the back of the fiddle
- you hold the bow with your pinky extended
- it is in bad-taste to poke the next chair with your bow
- you are obligated to play the same music as everyone else
in Irish Trad
- you don't even need to acknowledge anyone in the session
- a head shake is a great compliment
- you hold the bow with your pinky extended while playing and handing your wife the car keys
- if you poke them they are sitting too close
- you better play what everyone else is playing or you will be listed as a bodhran player on this site.
Shouldn't they have TOLD you this at the beginning ?
It's not what we feel, it's just how it's done. You know if something is blatantly outside the tradition because you get the evil eye from the session convenor, and never get asked for your email and reminded when the next one is.
PS Have you ever been and/or do you regularly participate in a session ?
There is no difference between a fiddle and a violin, they are one and the same; only the names have arrived by different routes. There are differences in playing styles on the instrument in various parts of the world, which is another matter. Maybe you should rephrase the question.
this is the point i'm putting across would you say there is no differences in the instruments at all apart from the type of music they play or that there is a difference as some fiddle players hold the fiddle in front of them and others hold it the way classical players hold it. and the freedom in how traditional tunes are played in comparison to classical music. As what MorganYYZ said in the world of classical versus traditional
The things you mention (the way of holding the instrument or freedom in the playing of tunes) seems to me to have everything to do with the kind of music being played on the instrument and the learning experiences of the player. I guess I don't understand your question! Or maybe it can't be answered?
I'm a student of Irish fiddle and my teacher is an accomplished Trad Fiddler and we both hold our instruments the same way classical players hold theirs and our instruments are set up the same way violins are set up for classical violinists. I know Trad players who do it all differently, too.
Most violinists I know and fiddle players hold their violin/fiddle the exact same way. Most of them also use the same bow hold. In classical music it is more important to hold your pinky against the bow at all times. This is because the music will often require notes that may come out of nowhere, but which are actually complementing the part of some other instrument..
Three and four note chords are common place, where as in trad you can use chords this way while fiddling but 2 or 3 note chords are more appropriate and will usually only occur when at least one string can be played open.
In classical music bow direction is dictated in the music. oftentimes your orchestra section will change the bowing at the will of the first chair. You have to watch your section and match their bowing. in fast parts, where the bow movements are less visible, you can get away with falling off once in a while and get back on when the long broad bow strokes start back up again.
Classical music involves parts that mesh with what the whole orchestra is doing (unless it's a sonata or other solo piece) so you will have long periods in the middle of a piece where you are not playing at all and either casually listening and watching the conductor, or meticulously counting and running your fingers over the fingerboard in the pattern of the next phrase you are playing to make sure you get it right.
You must learn to play every piece your chair leader hands to you before the first rehearsal for a concert, otherwise drop out of the orchestra and pursue your solo career or take up trad.
I don't think that trad is inferior in any way to classical music. both take an equal amount of discipline to get right. I feel like either tradition can set you up at a good point to start learning the other but that is based on my experiences where I had access to a viola and cello for many months and went on to several other instruments, played a lot of baroque and classical music, got into folk, took up banjo, then fiddle, and ultimately learning classical violin again and joining an orchestra for the first time at the age of 28 with people who have been playing in an orchestra their whole lives.
One last thing, classical music involves a lot of "shifting" which can usually be done in a variety of ways starting from a lot of notes. To master this, violinists play etudes, or studies that familiarize them with techniques such as shifting. Ultimately it is up to the player to decide which strategy is best for them but most violinists highly recommend beginners study with a teacher as they may not be capable of teaching themselves good technique.
Personally I play in an orchestra and I've had maybe 5 classical violin lessons in my life, it doesn't take years of tutelage but just a good sense of music and lots of practice, which is the same for trad.
I do find that for a traditional player trying this, that etudes can be helpful to familiarize you with the genre, but you can just as well get the music for your favorite sonata or concerto and just give it a whirl, you will probably find it contains techniques which you will have to practice, but there is no one proper way to do such. You can just simply isolate the phrase ( which is what you will spend most of your practice time doing anyway) or write your own tune that uses variations of that phrase, whatever it takes.
thank you earl you've answered quite a lot of what i had put in a questionnaire i made for friends of mine. would you mind if i quoted you in an essay i am writing?
It depends on one's perspective. You've already slanted your question with the use of the word "free" to describe trad, and "rigid" to describe classical techniques. You have put your perspective into the question.
Having played both styles, there are differences, but not so much in how I hold the instrument. It's more about what I do with the bow that is different, like bow length and speed. But, I am holding the bow the same way.
One is not really "free" and the other, "rigid." A well-trained classical violinist can find quite a bit of freedom in their technique/style.
Oisín McAuley used the R word,
"Even though they’re very accomplished in classical music, they’re not able to pick up music by ear very well and their technique tends to be very rigid."
I like how you put that wyogal. I don't think more free/rigid is a good way of putting it. We're also oversimplifying here by talking about "classical music" unless we are talking only about music from the "classical" era, i.e. Mozart, Beethoven. The conventions of classical music are somewhat different than baroque or romantic music. Also German and Austrian music is inspired by Italian music, and French music can often be a beast of it's own. It is the conductor who describes the feel and pulse of each piece to the orchestra through words and gestures. I've heard a French conductor tell the section we are playing too "precisely" and when we bow a particular passage to do so with more "impressionism" much like the French impressionist painters of that period were doing.
It only takes learning some baroque sonatas to realize that the music is starkly different than classical, though the two are more alike than many other genres you might compare, because they fall into what scholars call the Common Practice Period or C.P.P. What laymen call classical is actually a continuum of many different genres that built on each other over hundreds of years.
classical musicians are trained to mimic the music as it is writ, if the conductor says "this is a tune composed in Germany in 1687 and it goes like this" they can do it.
If the conductor says "this is a traditional Irish tune, play it like you are p*ssed and don't give a sh*te" - hey presto ITM!
I figure that it has more to do with what music is being played because going for different styles of music require different methods of playing. If you're trying to play fiddle, play the string wooden box this way. If you're trying violin, play the string wooden box this was. But music is sooooo subjective, it's hard to explain what "the way" is. Well, for most of us? Everytime i think, "this is the difference between the fiddle and violin" further though says "noooo that's the same thing..." Good luck with this.
A violinist is a generalist and should be able to realise "the composer's intention" from the written music over a very wide range of periods, styles and national "schools."
A fiddler is a specialist in the language of the tradition they play and doesn't expect to be able to play other traditions.
Technical development follows the same distinctions.
This bit might be a good experience for any musician.
"Yo-Yo Ma says that only once, early in his career, did he try for a technically perfect performance. "I was seventeen," he told me. "I spent a year working on it. I was playing a Brahms sonata at the 92nd Street Y. I remember working really hard at it, and in the middle of the performance I thought, I'm bored. It would have been nothing for me to get up from the stage and walk away. That's when I decided I would always opt for expression over perfection." It isn't that Ma doesn't achieve perfection; it's that he finds striving for perfection to be banal. He says that he sometimes welcomes it when he breaks a string, because that is precisely the kind of thing (like illness or an injury to a teammate) that you cannot prepare for--that you haven't chunked and, like some robot, stored neatly in long-term memory. The most successful performers improvise. They create, in Ma's words, "something living.""
I should try go playing in an orchestra holding the bow halfway up the stick, and with the violin resting on my chest instead of my shoulder. Probably get me plenty of attention.
Not everyone plays with the instrument on their chest, or with the hand halfway up the bow. But i'm gonna try that bow thing, i think i could get more action on the bow from my loose wrist that way
Generally, Classical violin is more strict and discipline. When you see the music sheet, you have to follow the rules as it is written in it, so that you can translate the soul of the composer into your playing, that's way most of the classical player can't be separate with the music sheet (This is the truth that i hate). In the terms of the posture, you have to maintain your posture in the perfect manner. Very strict i suppose, you can see how Yehudi Menuhin for example, playing Hungarian Dance No. 5
For the Fiddling playing (Irish, Jazz, Gypsy, and others) is emphasizing the freedom of your heart. I have downloaded many version of the Irish tune and i notice that nobody playing exactly the same. They play from their heart as they start to dancing. Reading the music sheet is only for the helping tools, the rest of it is that you must play the tune based on your soul! (I like this truth). For the posture? You can do your own posture as long you can dancing and follow the rhythm. Some player like Kevin Burke or Sharon Corr have more relaxing position than the Classical Violin Player
But of course, for the beginner, they should learn from the classical theory, so that they have their standard posture (how to hold the violin, the now, etc) and how to read the musical notation. Hope this helps
I think it's great if someone else can say what the composer meant, and how they meant it. The composer wrote with the objective of expression, and likely hoping that someone else could relate. It's very special to be able to feel someone elses feelings through music because the feelings are so strong that way. Freedom is great, but it's also great to understand and say what the Artist was saying, so that others can hear the beautiful expression.
Because the word 'violin' is usually used after the word 'classical', and the word 'fiddle' is usually used after the word 'traditional', does not make them separate instruments. If you want to make a distinction in styles by applying this terminology, fair enough, but you might as well say there is a difference between a pianist and a piano player.
"Some player like Kevin Burke or Sharon Corr have more relaxing position than the Classical Violin Player"
No. While it may appear "more relaxed", it isn't. Classical players don't spend their lives rigidly playing their instrument while full of tension.
And fiddlelearner, while I'm sure someone is going to disagree with me, holding the bow in the classical style will not prevent you from having a loose hand, or reduce the amount of "action" you get. If you need to hold the bow halfway along the stick, buy a shorter bow.
" If you need to hold the bow halfway along the stick, buy a shorter bow."
Well, not quite the same thing. Try attaching a string to the heel of a short bow and half way up a full length bow. See how they balance. Not that I'm advocating holding a bow in the middle.
I think that's from the same show I saw in Romania - most of it was played from memory, they only used paper for songs with long texts or complicated Baroque pieces like that one, and Mustonen was wandering all round the stage as the focus shifted between instruments or singers.
No, of course the balance is different, but unless you actually want to remove half of the possibilities you can achieve with a long bow, I don't see the point of holding it there.
I think it's more common to see fiddlers holding the bow about a third of the way up. I reckon it's more to do with the balance rather than the length. Someone suggested it's easier to play all night that way, but I'm not convinced.
The argument that it's easier to play all night that way is, IMO, a kind of quick fix - instead of directly addressing problems in the right hand holding it in the conventional manner, perhaps holding it with fewer fingers higher up the stick seemingly solves the problem of tension in the hand. People often put too much pressure through the little finger onto the bow, and while removing it from the equation entirely is one solution, it's not the only one.
I played classical longer than anything "trad". The main difference for me is that, in classical, I remember counting. A lot. With Irish tunes, I don't count so much as feel the beat.
I only ever count when I'm in the middle of 40 bars of rests, something which doesn't really feature in ITM. When it comes to actually playing, one still feels the beat in both cases.
Traditional Fiddler: May I sit here & play a few tunes with your session?
Session Fiddler: Of course! But you know, in this pub the musicians only get one free beer each.
Classical Violinist: I just passed the audition. So, this must be my seat?
2nd chair: Of course! I imagine you've premedicated for tonight's Tchaikovsky Concerto.
An orchestra gathered to play Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Since there are long periods in the middle of the symphony where the bass is not required by the score, the whole section made plans to visit a pub across the street. To give themselves some warning regarding the end of their rest period, they put string around the conductor's sheet music so they would see him clearing it before it was time for them to play. The whole plan started off without a hitch. They played the last note, and disappeared to the pub as planned. But things began to go awry as they downed drink after drink. Finally, noticing their absence, a percussionist was dispatched to the pub to retrieve them. They staggered back to the concert hall and picked up their instruments. The situation was desperate. Here they were, at the bottom of the ninth, the score was tied, and the basses were loaded...
about the bow hold. I don't think it's really a particular strategy of a loose wrist, but more of a symptom of it.
I always start out with a standard bow hold, with my thumb in the frog, but when you get me going on a set of reels I find that by the end my hand is almost a third up the bow. I believe that the weight of the bow just gradually slips between my fingers while I'm playing if I'm not too tense to keep my thumb held in the frog.
(side note, this is more likely to happen on tunes that don't require the lowest string as the weight of the bow is anchored toward the floor)
This doesn't happen so much in classical music because the setting is just so different. You have those long rest periods that Al and I are talking about to reestablish your bow hold for the next part you are playing.
So in conclusion. the bow hold up the stick is just something that happens when drunk fiddlers are really getting into the music for a long set and forget about their bow hold.
I've noticed a difference in choice of strings: fiddlers often use steel strings; classical violinists would use gut, pearlon, or synlon. Does this match other people's experience?
Smash the windows... I was speaking of orchestra settings. You have to count and/or watch the conductor or you will probably get lost. I don't have to do that while fiddling. Playing classically while alone, without accompaniment... yes, I would concede your point..
Stings don't matter for what style you are playing. It's a matter of personal preference. I use the same violin for both genres. I use steel strings and at sessions I'm told my violin is very quiet. I've used gut strings at sessions, it's just fine.
Let me be a bit more specific: if the tail piece has 4 fine tuners, then it's a fiddle. There are lots of fiddlers who also play some classical, baroque, or ECD, for which they might well have the instrument set up with pearlon. I know that's how mine is set up.
Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
As a module in uni I am studying irish trad and for our final assignment I am looking at the differences between the violin and fiddle (if there is any) and am looking for opinions from others on the topic. Things to think about are how the instrument is held, how the bow is held and used, do you feel there is more freedom in how the traditional fiddle is played in comparison to the rigid classical violin, and anything else you may feel important to the topic.
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by hypernism
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I believe in Classical Violin
- you must stand when the conductor arrives
- you are required to bang your bow against the back of the fiddle
- you hold the bow with your pinky extended
- it is in bad-taste to poke the next chair with your bow
- you are obligated to play the same music as everyone else
in Irish Trad
- you don't even need to acknowledge anyone in the session
- a head shake is a great compliment
- you hold the bow with your pinky extended while playing and handing your wife the car keys
- if you poke them they are sitting too close
- you better play what everyone else is playing or you will be listed as a bodhran player on this site.
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I may be a middle aged cynic, but shouldn't you know a bit about already if this is your final assessment?
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by minijackpot
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Shouldn't they have TOLD you this at the beginning ?
It's not what we feel, it's just how it's done. You know if something is blatantly outside the tradition because you get the evil eye from the session convenor, and never get asked for your email and reminded when the next one is.
PS Have you ever been and/or do you regularly participate in a session ?
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I do know about the subject, I'm just gauging other peoples opinion on the subject
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by hypernism
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I'm a classically trained cellist but a trad flute and whistle player
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by hypernism
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Violin music on a violin and fiddle tune on a fiddle?
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by minijackpot
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
There is no difference between a fiddle and a violin, they are one and the same; only the names have arrived by different routes. There are differences in playing styles on the instrument in various parts of the world, which is another matter. Maybe you should rephrase the question.
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by gam
^this
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
this is the point i'm putting across would you say there is no differences in the instruments at all apart from the type of music they play or that there is a difference as some fiddle players hold the fiddle in front of them and others hold it the way classical players hold it. and the freedom in how traditional tunes are played in comparison to classical music. As what MorganYYZ said in the world of classical versus traditional
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by hypernism
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Regarding how it's held, have a look at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/29016
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Well,, I'd Like to be able to play like any of these two Guy's
; )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-8nZoDB6Ac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPgqfHYeI0Q
jim,,,
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Hypernism,
The things you mention (the way of holding the instrument or freedom in the playing of tunes) seems to me to have everything to do with the kind of music being played on the instrument and the learning experiences of the player. I guess I don't understand your question! Or maybe it can't be answered?
I'm a student of Irish fiddle and my teacher is an accomplished Trad Fiddler and we both hold our instruments the same way classical players hold theirs and our instruments are set up the same way violins are set up for classical violinists. I know Trad players who do it all differently, too.
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by MaryMargaret
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Most violinists I know and fiddle players hold their violin/fiddle the exact same way. Most of them also use the same bow hold. In classical music it is more important to hold your pinky against the bow at all times. This is because the music will often require notes that may come out of nowhere, but which are actually complementing the part of some other instrument..
Three and four note chords are common place, where as in trad you can use chords this way while fiddling but 2 or 3 note chords are more appropriate and will usually only occur when at least one string can be played open.
In classical music bow direction is dictated in the music. oftentimes your orchestra section will change the bowing at the will of the first chair. You have to watch your section and match their bowing. in fast parts, where the bow movements are less visible, you can get away with falling off once in a while and get back on when the long broad bow strokes start back up again.
Classical music involves parts that mesh with what the whole orchestra is doing (unless it's a sonata or other solo piece) so you will have long periods in the middle of a piece where you are not playing at all and either casually listening and watching the conductor, or meticulously counting and running your fingers over the fingerboard in the pattern of the next phrase you are playing to make sure you get it right.
You must learn to play every piece your chair leader hands to you before the first rehearsal for a concert, otherwise drop out of the orchestra and pursue your solo career or take up trad.
I don't think that trad is inferior in any way to classical music. both take an equal amount of discipline to get right. I feel like either tradition can set you up at a good point to start learning the other but that is based on my experiences where I had access to a viola and cello for many months and went on to several other instruments, played a lot of baroque and classical music, got into folk, took up banjo, then fiddle, and ultimately learning classical violin again and joining an orchestra for the first time at the age of 28 with people who have been playing in an orchestra their whole lives.
One last thing, classical music involves a lot of "shifting" which can usually be done in a variety of ways starting from a lot of notes. To master this, violinists play etudes, or studies that familiarize them with techniques such as shifting. Ultimately it is up to the player to decide which strategy is best for them but most violinists highly recommend beginners study with a teacher as they may not be capable of teaching themselves good technique.
Personally I play in an orchestra and I've had maybe 5 classical violin lessons in my life, it doesn't take years of tutelage but just a good sense of music and lots of practice, which is the same for trad.
I do find that for a traditional player trying this, that etudes can be helpful to familiarize you with the genre, but you can just as well get the music for your favorite sonata or concerto and just give it a whirl, you will probably find it contains techniques which you will have to practice, but there is no one proper way to do such. You can just simply isolate the phrase ( which is what you will spend most of your practice time doing anyway) or write your own tune that uses variations of that phrase, whatever it takes.
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Oisín McAuley plays both.
http://www.fiddle.com/Articles.page?Art..&Index=9&ArticleID=18010
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: thoughts about bow placement/technique
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/27880#comment593015
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
thank you earl you've answered quite a lot of what i had put in a questionnaire i made for friends of mine. would you mind if i quoted you in an essay i am writing?
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by hypernism
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
It depends on one's perspective. You've already slanted your question with the use of the word "free" to describe trad, and "rigid" to describe classical techniques. You have put your perspective into the question.
Having played both styles, there are differences, but not so much in how I hold the instrument. It's more about what I do with the bow that is different, like bow length and speed. But, I am holding the bow the same way.
One is not really "free" and the other, "rigid." A well-trained classical violinist can find quite a bit of freedom in their technique/style.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
If you tip it over and beer and cigarettes spill out, it is a fiddle.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Oisín McAuley used the R word,
"Even though they’re very accomplished in classical music, they’re not able to pick up music by ear very well and their technique tends to be very rigid."
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I like how you put that wyogal. I don't think more free/rigid is a good way of putting it. We're also oversimplifying here by talking about "classical music" unless we are talking only about music from the "classical" era, i.e. Mozart, Beethoven. The conventions of classical music are somewhat different than baroque or romantic music. Also German and Austrian music is inspired by Italian music, and French music can often be a beast of it's own. It is the conductor who describes the feel and pulse of each piece to the orchestra through words and gestures. I've heard a French conductor tell the section we are playing too "precisely" and when we bow a particular passage to do so with more "impressionism" much like the French impressionist painters of that period were doing.
It only takes learning some baroque sonatas to realize that the music is starkly different than classical, though the two are more alike than many other genres you might compare, because they fall into what scholars call the Common Practice Period or C.P.P. What laymen call classical is actually a continuum of many different genres that built on each other over hundreds of years.
Yes you can quote me if you like
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
classical musicians are trained to mimic the music as it is writ, if the conductor says "this is a tune composed in Germany in 1687 and it goes like this" they can do it.
If the conductor says "this is a traditional Irish tune, play it like you are p*ssed and don't give a sh*te" - hey presto ITM!
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by mcknowall
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
*Traditional Fiddle* is a generalization as well.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I figure that it has more to do with what music is being played because going for different styles of music require different methods of playing. If you're trying to play fiddle, play the string wooden box this way. If you're trying violin, play the string wooden box this was. But music is sooooo subjective, it's hard to explain what "the way" is. Well, for most of us? Everytime i think, "this is the difference between the fiddle and violin" further though says "noooo that's the same thing..." Good luck with this.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
A violinist is a generalist and should be able to realise "the composer's intention" from the written music over a very wide range of periods, styles and national "schools."
A fiddler is a specialist in the language of the tradition they play and doesn't expect to be able to play other traditions.
Technical development follows the same distinctions.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by TomB-R
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
This bit might be a good experience for any musician.
"Yo-Yo Ma says that only once, early in his career, did he try for a technically perfect performance. "I was seventeen," he told me. "I spent a year working on it. I was playing a Brahms sonata at the 92nd Street Y. I remember working really hard at it, and in the middle of the performance I thought, I'm bored. It would have been nothing for me to get up from the stage and walk away. That's when I decided I would always opt for expression over perfection." It isn't that Ma doesn't achieve perfection; it's that he finds striving for perfection to be banal. He says that he sometimes welcomes it when he breaks a string, because that is precisely the kind of thing (like illness or an injury to a teammate) that you cannot prepare for--that you haven't chunked and, like some robot, stored neatly in long-term memory. The most successful performers improvise. They create, in Ma's words, "something living.""
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Got this link sent to me on the same subject by A fiddler friend from around Belfast --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLgBejh5TLA
Now I know why he was in league with the Devil - lol...
jim,,,
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I should try go playing in an orchestra holding the bow halfway up the stick, and with the violin resting on my chest instead of my shoulder. Probably get me plenty of attention.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by banshee misfortune
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Not everyone plays with the instrument on their chest, or with the hand halfway up the bow. But i'm gonna try that bow thing, i think i could get more action on the bow from my loose wrist that way
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Alexander Markov Masterclass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dIbRTPDqNM
timing critique @ 5:22
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by ain't fluffed
@4:45
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Generally, Classical violin is more strict and discipline. When you see the music sheet, you have to follow the rules as it is written in it, so that you can translate the soul of the composer into your playing, that's way most of the classical player can't be separate with the music sheet (This is the truth that i hate). In the terms of the posture, you have to maintain your posture in the perfect manner. Very strict i suppose, you can see how Yehudi Menuhin for example, playing Hungarian Dance No. 5
For the Fiddling playing (Irish, Jazz, Gypsy, and others) is emphasizing the freedom of your heart. I have downloaded many version of the Irish tune and i notice that nobody playing exactly the same. They play from their heart as they start to dancing. Reading the music sheet is only for the helping tools, the rest of it is that you must play the tune based on your soul! (I like this truth). For the posture? You can do your own posture as long you can dancing and follow the rhythm. Some player like Kevin Burke or Sharon Corr have more relaxing position than the Classical Violin Player
But of course, for the beginner, they should learn from the classical theory, so that they have their standard posture (how to hold the violin, the now, etc) and how to read the musical notation. Hope this helps
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by sigit
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I think it's great if someone else can say what the composer meant, and how they meant it. The composer wrote with the objective of expression, and likely hoping that someone else could relate. It's very special to be able to feel someone elses feelings through music because the feelings are so strong that way. Freedom is great, but it's also great to understand and say what the Artist was saying, so that others can hear the beautiful expression.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I don't play fiddle but I like listening to it a lot, especially when it's a bit rough around the edges. That's real music to my ears..
I doubt if that's acceptable in the classical world?
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Because the word 'violin' is usually used after the word 'classical', and the word 'fiddle' is usually used after the word 'traditional', does not make them separate instruments. If you want to make a distinction in styles by applying this terminology, fair enough, but you might as well say there is a difference between a pianist and a piano player.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by gam
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
"Some player like Kevin Burke or Sharon Corr have more relaxing position than the Classical Violin Player"
No. While it may appear "more relaxed", it isn't. Classical players don't spend their lives rigidly playing their instrument while full of tension.
And fiddlelearner, while I'm sure someone is going to disagree with me, holding the bow in the classical style will not prevent you from having a loose hand, or reduce the amount of "action" you get. If you need to hold the bow halfway along the stick, buy a shorter bow.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
" If you need to hold the bow halfway along the stick, buy a shorter bow."
Well, not quite the same thing. Try attaching a string to the heel of a short bow and half way up a full length bow. See how they balance. Not that I'm advocating holding a bow in the middle.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I think the most relaxed fiddler I have ever seen is Andres Mustonen of the Estonian early music group Hortus Musicus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLRt4Rk-3p4
I think that's from the same show I saw in Romania - most of it was played from memory, they only used paper for songs with long texts or complicated Baroque pieces like that one, and Mustonen was wandering all round the stage as the focus shifted between instruments or singers.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
No, of course the balance is different, but unless you actually want to remove half of the possibilities you can achieve with a long bow, I don't see the point of holding it there.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I think it's more common to see fiddlers holding the bow about a third of the way up. I reckon it's more to do with the balance rather than the length. Someone suggested it's easier to play all night that way, but I'm not convinced.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Quite possibly Weejie.
The argument that it's easier to play all night that way is, IMO, a kind of quick fix - instead of directly addressing problems in the right hand holding it in the conventional manner, perhaps holding it with fewer fingers higher up the stick seemingly solves the problem of tension in the hand. People often put too much pressure through the little finger onto the bow, and while removing it from the equation entirely is one solution, it's not the only one.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I played classical longer than anything "trad". The main difference for me is that, in classical, I remember counting. A lot. With Irish tunes, I don't count so much as feel the beat.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I only ever count when I'm in the middle of 40 bars of rests, something which doesn't really feature in ITM. When it comes to actually playing, one still feels the beat in both cases.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Psssst... Hey, buddy, wanna buy a violin-to-fiddle conversion kit? Just one hundred bucks. And I'll throw in a box of ornaments.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Bob himself
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Traditional Fiddler: May I sit here & play a few tunes with your session?
Session Fiddler: Of course! But you know, in this pub the musicians only get one free beer each.
Classical Violinist: I just passed the audition. So, this must be my seat?
2nd chair: Of course! I imagine you've premedicated for tonight's Tchaikovsky Concerto.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
An orchestra gathered to play Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. Since there are long periods in the middle of the symphony where the bass is not required by the score, the whole section made plans to visit a pub across the street. To give themselves some warning regarding the end of their rest period, they put string around the conductor's sheet music so they would see him clearing it before it was time for them to play. The whole plan started off without a hitch. They played the last note, and disappeared to the pub as planned. But things began to go awry as they downed drink after drink. Finally, noticing their absence, a percussionist was dispatched to the pub to retrieve them. They staggered back to the concert hall and picked up their instruments. The situation was desperate. Here they were, at the bottom of the ninth, the score was tied, and the basses were loaded...
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
You might be interested in this little chapbook:
William C. Honeyman - Strathspey Players, Past and Present, (Larg&Sons 1922(1) / Hardie Press, Edinburgh 1984)
It's about Louis Spohr, Paganini, Neil Gow and other fine violinists/fiddle players.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by peirol
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
nice one Al!.
about the bow hold. I don't think it's really a particular strategy of a loose wrist, but more of a symptom of it.
I always start out with a standard bow hold, with my thumb in the frog, but when you get me going on a set of reels I find that by the end my hand is almost a third up the bow. I believe that the weight of the bow just gradually slips between my fingers while I'm playing if I'm not too tense to keep my thumb held in the frog.
(side note, this is more likely to happen on tunes that don't require the lowest string as the weight of the bow is anchored toward the floor)
This doesn't happen so much in classical music because the setting is just so different. You have those long rest periods that Al and I are talking about to reestablish your bow hold for the next part you are playing.
So in conclusion. the bow hold up the stick is just something that happens when drunk fiddlers are really getting into the music for a long set and forget about their bow hold.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Neil Gow remix ~
Tigh Hughes Pub in Spiddal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YIrzeY9iwo
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
See the old fiddler with the white hair in that session clip,
as far as I know, that's Charlie Lennon.
jim,,,
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I've noticed a difference in choice of strings: fiddlers often use steel strings; classical violinists would use gut, pearlon, or synlon. Does this match other people's experience?
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by fiddlentina
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Smash the windows... I was speaking of orchestra settings. You have to count and/or watch the conductor or you will probably get lost. I don't have to do that while fiddling. Playing classically while alone, without accompaniment... yes, I would concede your point..
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Stings don't matter for what style you are playing. It's a matter of personal preference. I use the same violin for both genres. I use steel strings and at sessions I'm told my violin is very quiet. I've used gut strings at sessions, it's just fine.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Earl Cameron
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Actually, nearly all of the fiddlers I know use some kind of perlon string. Except for me.
# Posted on January 4th 2012 by Bob himself
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
Let me be a bit more specific: if the tail piece has 4 fine tuners, then it's a fiddle. There are lots of fiddlers who also play some classical, baroque, or ECD, for which they might well have the instrument set up with pearlon. I know that's how mine is set up.
# Posted on January 6th 2012 by fiddlentina
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
" if the tail piece has 4 fine tuners, then it's a fiddle" - erm, no?
# Posted on January 7th 2012 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Traditional Fiddle versus Classical Violin
I use gut strings. I have a tailpiece with integral tuners.
# Posted on January 7th 2012 by ethical blend