So I've heard there are, or maybe were, Celtic music styles in Austria and other Alpine regions. Does anybody know any tunes from that area? I've looked but haven't found anything yet.
There were people in Austria speaking Celtic languages 2000 years ago. For all we know about their music, they might have had Nyan Cat as the only tune in their repertoire.
The Romans obliterated all trace of Celtic Austrian culture about 200 BC.
Thanks for the info, it does seem that their tune repertoire has been lost. There are drawings of them playing an instrument called the carynx, a two-meter long horn with the head of an animal carved on the end.
The Karnyx is the horn you are referring to - but it was introduced to europe by the Romans, while they were busy wiping out Celtic culture. So we don't really think of it as a Celtic instrument.
"The Karnyx is the horn you are referring to - but it was introduced to europe by the Romans, while they were busy wiping out Celtic culture. So we don't really think of it as a Celtic instrument."
Given that the carnyx is depicted along with Gallic shields as trophies of war on Roman coinage, it would seem odd that the Romans introduced it non?
It seems that most archaeologists think of it as a Celtic-Dacian instrument. There is even suggestion that the Etruscan lituus was derived from the carnyx (not the other way round), though no real evidence exists. In fact the origin of the carnyx is still unknown, but I've not heard anyone suggest that the Romans introduced it before (named it, perhaps).
On the understanding that Etruria and Rome were both situated in Europe, then even the possibly related lituus existed on the continent before "the Romans were busy wiping out Celtic culture", so I'm not sure where the would have introduced the carnyx from.
Can anyone tell me why the Roman soldier/bandsman who played that Roman(or is it Celtic?) sort-of bronze sousaphone had the added distinction of a leopard skin sari thingy on his torso? That's how they're depicted.
Quig, that sounds like someone in the Castro, "Roman/Celtic, soldier/bandsman . . . leopard skin sari thingy . . ."
Who knows? They're just free spirits.
@Ben -- There is no evidence the Romans advanced any farther N. than the Tehachapi mountains, if even that far. The story goes that the assembled Fresnii annihilated most of them somewhere along that trail through the pass. The Romans had not anticipated a confrontion with elephants. @Ceol -- Are we talking about old Romans, or modern drum majors?
I don´t know about any Celtic music styles on the northern sides of the Alps (this would be Bavaria and Austria). In the instrumental music there are lots of waltzes but they are closer to American old time/bluegrass melodies and harmonies (somebody told me that one of my favorite waltzes, the Texas waltz "Midnight on the water" - also in the tune section here - was brought to Texas by German immigrants, so maybe there is a connection here). In the Bohemian Forest - on the Czech-Bavarian border - there are bagpipe players but I do not know which musical tradition they go back to (this is a region the Romans never reached). On the southern side of the Alps, however, there is a group of people called the Raeto-Romans (in some Italian mountain valleys, I think). They have their own language, and I would not be surprised if they also had their own musical traditions - and they just might be Celtic. The Romans did not get into their valleys either, I´m quite sure.
"On the southern side of the Alps, however, there is a group of people called the Raeto-Romans (in some Italian mountain valleys, I think). They have their own language, and I would not be surprised if they also had their own musical traditions - and they just might be Celtic. The Romans did not get into their valleys either, I´m quite sure."
...although their language (or group of dialects, which includes Romansh, one of the four official languages of Switzerland) belongs to the Romance family, so there is some kind of Roman connection there. Wikipedia assures me that the Romans *did* get there, but also says that before the Roman conquest, these areas were Celtic speaking - no great surprise.
"somebody told me that one of my favorite waltzes, the Texas waltz "Midnight on the water" - also in the tune section here - was brought to Texas by German immigrants, so maybe there is a connection here"
Well, stories do travel. However, the more widely held belief seems to be that it was composed by a Texas fiddler of (most likely) Scandinavian descent. The Romans didn't reach Texas, either.
"somebody told me that one of my favorite waltzes, the Texas waltz "Midnight on the water"... There may some confusion here with "Paul's Waltz" which I have heard on a 78 from the 1920's by an eastern european musician. It was latter recorded by Eddie Arnold as Cattle Call.
Back to the OP ~ "So I've heard there are, or maybe were, Celtic music styles in Austria and other Alpine regions."
How to Riverdance ~ Instructional Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1qx8wVuac4
(Jump! Big smile )
The Bronze Age Scandinavians had bronze 'lurs', which were long curly-wurly thingies that probably functioned much as the carnix. They turn up now and then in peat bogs. So I imagine these long trumpet types were general across Europe (and I dare say elsewhere) long before the Romans became a noticeable regional power, and that the Romans merely adopted and adapted the model.
"Genuine excellence and flavour are hard-earned qualities. Danish butter has always been famous for them. Which is why in 1888 inferior butters were prevented from masquerading as their Danish counterparts, by the creation of just one brand for all Danish butter.
This was the ‘Lurmark’ – registered on 23rd October 1901 as the trademark for quality Danish butter. You can still see this mark on LURPAK today. It features entwined ‘lurs’ – Bronze Age musical instruments that have become symbols of Denmark."
I was talking about the old, old celtics and possibly lingering tunes or styles they might have left. Looks like they didn't. This stems from something I read, not just tavern talk. The Carynx, they say, had quite a scale range, and various melodies could/can be constructed with it.
I wonder why the carynx isn't played much anymore, I know I'd like to get ahold of one.
I heard most or all of an album of music made on instruments devised to recreate, as far as could be done, those available in prehistoric times in Sweden, which I was visiting at the time.
The helpful chap in the music shop put it on and signified that my companion and I could listen at leisure, close as we were to the sound system / amplifier at one end of the shop.
Startling, uncouth sounds began to rend the air. They got worse, and worse, and worse. They replicated the internal disorders of monsters, let alone Bronze Age heathens. These in turn were trumped by great pealing farts that I assume were the lurs, et cetera. The occasional customer looked critically in my direction. I was beetroot with embarrassment by then and pretending I was invisible. I also worried that the shopkeeper might after all make me feel I had to buy the thing.
Fortunately that was not the case. But the album - exquisitely produced with every scholarly aid - did not as far as I recall contain a note of what I would call music, much less a tune. It sounded more like Iceland after a dodgy vindaloo. I think.
"Do elaborate further, Skreech.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by Weejie"
Sorry, weej, I've been away from my computer for a few days (Christmas and all that).
The fisrt depictions/references to the Karnyx are from Greece. If you plot first references/depictions as the appear across Europe, they travel Northwards from Northern Italy, in a timeframe coincident with Roman occupation (archaeological finds are no help, they are all much later). The reference I was citing is Karl Geiringer's 'Instruments in the History of Western Music' Geiringer concluded that the Karnyx spread through the Celtic lands in the hands of Celts serving in the Roman legions. Which seems pretty logical to me. But IF they are indeed 'spoils of war' in the Roman coin icons, that would seem to refute the theory. But I see nothing on those coins that suggests they are spoils of war. I suspect that idea was simply put forward as an explanation as to why what is accepted as a celtic instrument appears on a roman coin.
"The reverse depicts a trophy, with shield and carnyx (war trumpet) on each side. Below are two captives, a woman on the left and man on the right. The type of shield and carnyx identify them as Gauls, and the design refers to Caesar's victories over them."
Do you know what a "tropæum" is, Skreech? It is explained in the next paragraph:
"After a victorious battle, the Greeks erected a trophy on the battlefield and dedicated it to the gods. It consisted of weapons of the defeated army placed on a pole or tree trunk. This custom was adopted by the Romans, but sometimes it was made in Rome."
So, the shield and carnyx were trophies. Rather odd, don't you think, if the Romans had them in the back of the van to "introduce" them to the natives?
As for your theories on the "depictions" - they don't seem to hold much ground.
Apparently, the earliest depiction of a carnyx is on Ætolian coins of around 279 BC. The carnyx, along with Gaulish and Macedonian shields lies beneath the feet of Ætolia, and represents victory over those people:
"The seated figure of Aetolia on some of the above coins is certainly a copy of the statue of that heroine dedicated by the Aetolians at Delphi, γυναικοσ αγαλμα ωπλισμενης, η Αιτωλια δηθεν (Paus. x. 18. 7), in memory of their victory over the Gauls. Beneath her feet on the tetradrachms is a Gaulish trumpet (carnyx) ending in the head of a wolf or dragon, and some of the shields on which she is seated are of the Gaulish and others of the Macedonian pattern, the former sometimes inscribed Α, the initial of the Gaulish leader Acichorius, and the latter ΛΥ, perhaps standing for Lyciscus, the Macedonian general (B. M. C., Thes., p. lvii)."
Aetolia is in modern Western Greece. The victory mentioned by Weejie was by the newish Macedonian overlords of Greece and the Middle East over a horde of Gauls who had set off Eastward (I don't know where from) and, repelled from Greece, ended up occupying Galatia in modern Turkey. There they stayed.
Galatia was named after these Gauls, and in due course became a Roman province. St. Paul wrote to the Galatians in the 'koine' Greek of the time. I don't know if they wrote back, or for that matter if anything identifiably Celtic survives in the culture of those parts. Of course, the earlier populations and culture experienced the incursion of the Turks and Islam, following on the Roman and Byzantine empires.
The Macedonian shields the goddess Aetolia is seated on are obviously those of the winning side - which I suppose implies that not *every* piece of equipment in such a composition, that is somewhere beneath the victor, is necessarily booty taken from the loser.
'Trophy' derives originally from the Greek word 'tropaion', which means 'turning-point' - or at any rate in this usage, 'the place where the battle was turned' - i.e., the spot where the enemy were stopped or driven back in a manner leading to their being put to flight or otherwise defeated. I wonder how long the armour was left on the pole(s), and who did what with it eventually. If you left the enemies' armour there when you went away, they would have just come back for it, surely?..
>>"The reverse depicts a trophy, with shield and carnyx (war trumpet) on each side. Below are two captives, a woman on the left and man on the right. The type of shield and carnyx identify them as Gauls, and the design refers to Caesar's victories over them."
If you can look at a coin and say with certainly that that is what it depicts, you are a better man than me.
If you are just taking someone else's word for it, you're not. Personally, I can't even be sure that the coin depicts the Karnyx - to my eye they could just as easily be battle axes. Do you know who originally interpreted them as Karnyxes? is it a source you trust?
>>"So, the shield and carnyx were trophies. Rather odd, don't you think, if the Romans had them in the back of the van to "introduce" them to the natives?"
Not at all. The Romans occupied Spain in 200BC. That coin was minted in 45 or 46BC. I'm not disputing that the Karnyx was adopted and became a celtic instrument. But if you want to argue against the generally held belief that it spread through Celtic Europe in the hands of the legions, you would need to prove that it was in use in some Celtic area BEFORE Roman occupation, not 150 years after.
>>"Apparently, the earliest depiction of a carnyx is on Ætolian coins of around 279 BC. The carnyx, along with Gaulish and Macedonian shields lies beneath the feet of Ætolia, and represents victory over those people:
"The seated figure of Aetolia on some of the above coins is certainly a copy of the statue of that heroine dedicated by the Aetolians at Delphi, γυναικοσ αγαλμα ωπλισμενης, η Αιτωλια δηθεν (Paus. x. 18. 7), in memory of their victory over the Gauls. Beneath her feet on the tetradrachms is a Gaulish trumpet (carnyx) ending in the head of a wolf or dragon, and some of the shields on which she is seated are of the Gaulish and others of the Macedonian pattern, the former sometimes inscribed Α, the initial of the Gaulish leader Acichorius, and the latter ΛΥ, perhaps standing for Lyciscus, the Macedonian general (B. M. C., Thes., p. lvii)."
And since when were Ætolia and Macedonia Celtic? This is just more evidence that the Romans had encountered the Karnyx long before they started occupying Celtic Europe. It would make sense to me to assume that after this date, Macedonians and Ætoliana conscripted into the Roman Legions would take their instruments with them. And since there is absolutely no evidince that Celts had the Karnyx prior to contact with the Legions, it is reasonable to assume that this is where they first encountered the instrument.
"But if you want to argue against the generally held belief that it spread through Celtic Europe in the hands of the legions"
What generally held belief? I don't need to prove anything. It was you who suggested that it was introduced by the Romans. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever to support that.
"Personally, I can't even be sure that the coin depicts the Karnyx - to my eye they could just as easily be battle axes. Do you know who originally interpreted them as Karnyxes? is it a source you trust?"
Didn't you link to that picture of a coin? Did you not ask "and see if you can spot anything that indicates the Karnyxes are 'spoils of war'."
I did spot something - the text accompanying the picture suggested that this was a tropæum.
"And since when were Ætolia and Macedonia Celtic?"
Geez.....Don't you get it? Ætolia was seated on a symbollic depiction of victory over the Gauls. The shields and the carnyx.
"This is proved by the reverse type of the tetradrachm, which contains a distinct allusion to the repulse both of Macedonians and Gauls by the Aetolians. "
Didn't Celts sack Rome at about that time? (What with Celtic and Carthaginian invasions, seems like the Romans got as good as they gave, at least during the period when their empire was starting out.) The invading Celts could have presumably looted Roman "musical" instruments that took their fancy.
>>" Geez.....Don't you get it? Ætolia was seated on a symbollic depiction of victory over the Gauls. The shields and the carnyx"
No I don't get it at all. You took exception to my statement that the Karnyx arrived in Austria with the Roman Legions. You cite as evidence a coin showing that it was known in Macedonia or Ætolia prior to The Romans moving North. How does that work? We know that both the Romans and Greeks had very similar instruments (the Lituus and Salpynx) that were used in battle in the same manner as the Karnyx at least two hundred years before that coin was struck, so it really doesn't tell us much, certainly not whenor how the instrument spread Northwards.
The truth is, it is all conjecture anyway, no one knows for sure, and neither of us are experts in the field.
In that situation I am quite happy to go along with the musicologists who ARE experts in the field:
Geiringer: "...the karynx, an instrument used in every district inhabited by the Celts, who were apparently introduced to it by Roman Legionairies."
If you want to believe something different that's fine. But don't tell me I am wrong.
"You cite as evidence a coin showing that it was known in Macedonia or Ætolia prior to The Romans moving North. How does that work? "
It came with the Gauls, silly.
"We know that both the Romans and Greeks had very similar instruments (the Lituus and Salpynx)
The lituus was basically an Etruscan instrument - there is no hard evidence to support claims that the carnyx developed from that. There is also the lur (mentioned earlier) which existence predates the Roman expansion in the west.
"The truth is, it is all conjecture anyway, no one knows for sure, and neither of us are experts in the field."
I've said as much about twenty miles back.
"I am quite happy to go along with the musicologists who ARE experts in the field:"
Geiringer:
Karl Geiringer? Wasn't he a biographer of classical composers and an authority on certain composers under that category? Wasn't his thesis on instruments in Renaissance painting or something? OK, he wrote a book on the history of western instruments - that doesn't make him an authority. A bit of argumentum ad verecundiam involved there. Moreover, I'm not sure if that quote is verbatim, but that word "karynx" is decidedly dodgy.
"If you want to believe something different that's fine. But don't tell me I am wrong."
I haven't said you were wrong, nor that I believed anything. However, I did question your very bold statement:
"So we don't really think of it as a Celtic instrument."
It does seem that the vast majority of historians do think of it as a Celtic instrument. I asked you to explain how you arrived at such a conclusion. It seems that you base it on the word of an expert on Haydn.
In the words of Justinus (Historiarum Philippicarum), on the attack on Delphi by the Gauls:
"Quamobrem et hominum clamor et si quando accedit tubarum sonus, personantibus et respondentibus inter se rupibus multiplex audiri ampliorque quam editur resonare solet. Quae res maiorem maiestatis terrorem ignaris rei et admirationem stupentibus plerumque adfert."
My Latin is a wee bit rusty, but the gist of it is:
The sound of the shouting and sounding of trumpets (that's the carnyces) echoing off the rocks was enough to scare the sheight out of anyone, but was awesome forbye.
Then, the earliest Celtic carnyxes(tubarum sonus) were not wrested from defeated Romans as battle trophies, nor were they looted from Roman music emporia. Were the Roman noisemakers significantly different in design and manufacture from those of the Celts?
Thanks for the clarification. (Some of us had but one year of Latin.) (My English is little better.) I remember seeing a genuine Celtic horn on display in the Irish National Museum. The thing looked identical to the horns used by the Roman legionnaires as depicted in my school books.
The specimen in question was of the long curlycue variety, having an embossed sole instead of a bell that its maker soldered on the end of a very, very shallow taper. The old Celt would seem to have worn it as well as played it.
Unfortunately, I experienced priests waffling on in Latin during mass - and had to recite it, later to actually study enough of it to make out what they were waffling on about.
There are some quite early horns in that museum - two from around 800 - 600 BC. The Carnyx might well have developed from these. However, their use wasn't restricted to Celts, the Dacians used to scare the sheight out of people with them too.
Quite a historical lesson there. Some did say the Carnyx (spelled right this time) sounds, when played well, like the human voice, which can be interpreted in several ways seeing as we are capable of obnoxious bellowing as well as harmonious song.
Even if they sound terrifying they'd be fun to mess around with.
Austrian Celtic tunes
Austrian Celtic tunes
So I've heard there are, or maybe were, Celtic music styles in Austria and other Alpine regions. Does anybody know any tunes from that area? I've looked but haven't found anything yet.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by darach
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
There were people in Austria speaking Celtic languages 2000 years ago. For all we know about their music, they might have had Nyan Cat as the only tune in their repertoire.
The Romans obliterated all trace of Celtic Austrian culture about 200 BC.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Thanks for the info, it does seem that their tune repertoire has been lost. There are drawings of them playing an instrument called the carynx, a two-meter long horn with the head of an animal carved on the end.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by darach
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
I don't know who told you that, but I reckon they were pulling your plonker. Schammelmusick is about as 'celtic' as it gets in Austria:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7drOShEJ8Hc&feature=related
Those Romans have a lot to answer for.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by skreech
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Nothing beyond the geography in the title, but why not give a listen . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEfWQREi6Mg
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
The Karnyx is the horn you are referring to - but it was introduced to europe by the Romans, while they were busy wiping out Celtic culture. So we don't really think of it as a Celtic instrument.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by skreech
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Perhaps it was Asturian, rather than Austrian? Misheard in a noisy pub, maybe?
The Asturias region of Spain, that is. Good tunes there.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Or maybe Australian - just not so much Alpine, more likely porcupine.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by Janek
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Do you mean waltzes and polkas?
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by kuec
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"The Karnyx is the horn you are referring to - but it was introduced to europe by the Romans, while they were busy wiping out Celtic culture. So we don't really think of it as a Celtic instrument."
Who's "we"? Not John Purser, at any rate:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/music/scotlandsmusic/pdfs/scotlandsmusic_02.pdf
Given that the carnyx is depicted along with Gallic shields as trophies of war on Roman coinage, it would seem odd that the Romans introduced it non?
It seems that most archaeologists think of it as a Celtic-Dacian instrument. There is even suggestion that the Etruscan lituus was derived from the carnyx (not the other way round), though no real evidence exists. In fact the origin of the carnyx is still unknown, but I've not heard anyone suggest that the Romans introduced it before (named it, perhaps).
On the understanding that Etruria and Rome were both situated in Europe, then even the possibly related lituus existed on the continent before "the Romans were busy wiping out Celtic culture", so I'm not sure where the would have introduced the carnyx from.
Do elaborate further, Skreech.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Can anyone tell me why the Roman soldier/bandsman who played that Roman(or is it Celtic?) sort-of bronze sousaphone had the added distinction of a leopard skin sari thingy on his torso? That's how they're depicted.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
While we're at it, why do drum majors of today parade around in animal skins?
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Austrian/Roman/Celtic attire
Quig, that sounds like someone in the Castro, "Roman/Celtic, soldier/bandsman . . . leopard skin sari thingy . . ."
Who knows? They're just free spirits.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes & animal skins
To prevent chaffing... Maybe that's what we're all missing. We need to all start wearing animal skins again...
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by ceolachan
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
@Ben -- There is no evidence the Romans advanced any farther N. than the Tehachapi mountains, if even that far. The story goes that the assembled Fresnii annihilated most of them somewhere along that trail through the pass. The Romans had not anticipated a confrontion with elephants. @Ceol -- Are we talking about old Romans, or modern drum majors?
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
...confronTAtion...
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Colm Murphy has a well worn goatskin.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Weejie
Juliette became an elephant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeBwe7yTw7o
Perhaps a few hornblowers did as well. Who knows.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
I don´t know about any Celtic music styles on the northern sides of the Alps (this would be Bavaria and Austria). In the instrumental music there are lots of waltzes but they are closer to American old time/bluegrass melodies and harmonies (somebody told me that one of my favorite waltzes, the Texas waltz "Midnight on the water" - also in the tune section here - was brought to Texas by German immigrants, so maybe there is a connection here). In the Bohemian Forest - on the Czech-Bavarian border - there are bagpipe players but I do not know which musical tradition they go back to (this is a region the Romans never reached). On the southern side of the Alps, however, there is a group of people called the Raeto-Romans (in some Italian mountain valleys, I think). They have their own language, and I would not be surprised if they also had their own musical traditions - and they just might be Celtic. The Romans did not get into their valleys either, I´m quite sure.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by alexweger
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"On the southern side of the Alps, however, there is a group of people called the Raeto-Romans (in some Italian mountain valleys, I think). They have their own language, and I would not be surprised if they also had their own musical traditions - and they just might be Celtic. The Romans did not get into their valleys either, I´m quite sure."
...although their language (or group of dialects, which includes Romansh, one of the four official languages of Switzerland) belongs to the Romance family, so there is some kind of Roman connection there. Wikipedia assures me that the Romans *did* get there, but also says that before the Roman conquest, these areas were Celtic speaking - no great surprise.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"somebody told me that one of my favorite waltzes, the Texas waltz "Midnight on the water" - also in the tune section here - was brought to Texas by German immigrants, so maybe there is a connection here"
Well, stories do travel. However, the more widely held belief seems to be that it was composed by a Texas fiddler of (most likely) Scandinavian descent. The Romans didn't reach Texas, either.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"The Romans didn't reach Texas, either."
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf090/sf090a02.htm
Veni, vidi, vici, pard'ner.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Piece
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
I stand by what I said. The Romans didn't reach Texas. Nutters obviously did, however.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"somebody told me that one of my favorite waltzes, the Texas waltz "Midnight on the water"... There may some confusion here with "Paul's Waltz" which I have heard on a 78 from the 1920's by an eastern european musician. It was latter recorded by Eddie Arnold as Cattle Call.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Boots MacAllen
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Can be heard http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Squeeze+Play%3A+A+World+Accordion+Anthology+-+CD/10757433.p?id=134029&skuId=10757433
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Boots MacAllen
Re: Austrian Celtic Riverdance tunes
Back to the OP ~ "So I've heard there are, or maybe were, Celtic music styles in Austria and other Alpine regions."
)
How to Riverdance ~ Instructional Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1qx8wVuac4
(Jump! Big smile
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
The Bronze Age Scandinavians had bronze 'lurs', which were long curly-wurly thingies that probably functioned much as the carnix. They turn up now and then in peat bogs. So I imagine these long trumpet types were general across Europe (and I dare say elsewhere) long before the Romans became a noticeable regional power, and that the Romans merely adopted and adapted the model.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by nicholas
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
http://www.freshdirect.com/media/images/product/dairy_six/dai_lurpak_ltsaltbttr_z.jpg
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"Genuine excellence and flavour are hard-earned qualities. Danish butter has always been famous for them. Which is why in 1888 inferior butters were prevented from masquerading as their Danish counterparts, by the creation of just one brand for all Danish butter.
This was the ‘Lurmark’ – registered on 23rd October 1901 as the trademark for quality Danish butter. You can still see this mark on LURPAK today. It features entwined ‘lurs’ – Bronze Age musical instruments that have become symbols of Denmark."
http://www.lurpak.co.uk/our-story/lurpak-history/
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
I was talking about the old, old celtics and possibly lingering tunes or styles they might have left. Looks like they didn't. This stems from something I read, not just tavern talk. The Carynx, they say, had quite a scale range, and various melodies could/can be constructed with it.
I wonder why the carynx isn't played much anymore, I know I'd like to get ahold of one.
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by darach
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"I wonder why the carynx isn't played much anymore,"
Surely you mean the larynx?
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
I heard most or all of an album of music made on instruments devised to recreate, as far as could be done, those available in prehistoric times in Sweden, which I was visiting at the time.
The helpful chap in the music shop put it on and signified that my companion and I could listen at leisure, close as we were to the sound system / amplifier at one end of the shop.
Startling, uncouth sounds began to rend the air. They got worse, and worse, and worse. They replicated the internal disorders of monsters, let alone Bronze Age heathens. These in turn were trumped by great pealing farts that I assume were the lurs, et cetera. The occasional customer looked critically in my direction. I was beetroot with embarrassment by then and pretending I was invisible. I also worried that the shopkeeper might after all make me feel I had to buy the thing.
Fortunately that was not the case. But the album - exquisitely produced with every scholarly aid - did not as far as I recall contain a note of what I would call music, much less a tune. It sounded more like Iceland after a dodgy vindaloo. I think.
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by nicholas
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Hmm - I can't think why the Carnyx (note the spelling!) would have died out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVAWwWi0DbE
Can you?
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"Do elaborate further, Skreech.
# Posted on December 27th 2011 by Weejie"
Sorry, weej, I've been away from my computer for a few days (Christmas and all that).
The fisrt depictions/references to the Karnyx are from Greece. If you plot first references/depictions as the appear across Europe, they travel Northwards from Northern Italy, in a timeframe coincident with Roman occupation (archaeological finds are no help, they are all much later). The reference I was citing is Karl Geiringer's 'Instruments in the History of Western Music' Geiringer concluded that the Karnyx spread through the Celtic lands in the hands of Celts serving in the Roman legions. Which seems pretty logical to me. But IF they are indeed 'spoils of war' in the Roman coin icons, that would seem to refute the theory. But I see nothing on those coins that suggests they are spoils of war. I suspect that idea was simply put forward as an explanation as to why what is accepted as a celtic instrument appears on a roman coin.
have a look here: http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-190-000-453-C and see if you can spot anything that indicates the Karnyxes are 'spoils of war'.
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by skreech
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Does anybody know of a session pub with a high enough ceiling to play a carnyx in?
# Posted on December 30th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"have a look here: http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-190-000-453-C and see if you can spot anything that indicates the Karnyxes are 'spoils of war'."
I said "trophies of war" Skreech.
It says quite clearly:
"The reverse depicts a trophy, with shield and carnyx (war trumpet) on each side. Below are two captives, a woman on the left and man on the right. The type of shield and carnyx identify them as Gauls, and the design refers to Caesar's victories over them."
Do you know what a "tropæum" is, Skreech? It is explained in the next paragraph:
"After a victorious battle, the Greeks erected a trophy on the battlefield and dedicated it to the gods. It consisted of weapons of the defeated army placed on a pole or tree trunk. This custom was adopted by the Romans, but sometimes it was made in Rome."
So, the shield and carnyx were trophies. Rather odd, don't you think, if the Romans had them in the back of the van to "introduce" them to the natives?
As for your theories on the "depictions" - they don't seem to hold much ground.
Please actually read the content of your links.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"Does anybody know of a session pub with a high enough ceiling to play a carnyx in?"
I know of one or two session pubs with a beer garden.....
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Apparently, the earliest depiction of a carnyx is on Ætolian coins of around 279 BC. The carnyx, along with Gaulish and Macedonian shields lies beneath the feet of Ætolia, and represents victory over those people:
"The seated figure of Aetolia on some of the above coins is certainly a copy of the statue of that heroine dedicated by the Aetolians at Delphi, γυναικοσ αγαλμα ωπλισμενης, η Αιτωλια δηθεν (Paus. x. 18. 7), in memory of their victory over the Gauls. Beneath her feet on the tetradrachms is a Gaulish trumpet (carnyx) ending in the head of a wolf or dragon, and some of the shields on which she is seated are of the Gaulish and others of the Macedonian pattern, the former sometimes inscribed Α, the initial of the Gaulish leader Acichorius, and the latter ΛΥ, perhaps standing for Lyciscus, the Macedonian general (B. M. C., Thes., p. lvii)."
http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/aetolia.html
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Aetolia is in modern Western Greece. The victory mentioned by Weejie was by the newish Macedonian overlords of Greece and the Middle East over a horde of Gauls who had set off Eastward (I don't know where from) and, repelled from Greece, ended up occupying Galatia in modern Turkey. There they stayed.
Galatia was named after these Gauls, and in due course became a Roman province. St. Paul wrote to the Galatians in the 'koine' Greek of the time. I don't know if they wrote back, or for that matter if anything identifiably Celtic survives in the culture of those parts. Of course, the earlier populations and culture experienced the incursion of the Turks and Islam, following on the Roman and Byzantine empires.
The Macedonian shields the goddess Aetolia is seated on are obviously those of the winning side - which I suppose implies that not *every* piece of equipment in such a composition, that is somewhere beneath the victor, is necessarily booty taken from the loser.
'Trophy' derives originally from the Greek word 'tropaion', which means 'turning-point' - or at any rate in this usage, 'the place where the battle was turned' - i.e., the spot where the enemy were stopped or driven back in a manner leading to their being put to flight or otherwise defeated. I wonder how long the armour was left on the pole(s), and who did what with it eventually. If you left the enemies' armour there when you went away, they would have just come back for it, surely?..
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by nicholas
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
>>"The reverse depicts a trophy, with shield and carnyx (war trumpet) on each side. Below are two captives, a woman on the left and man on the right. The type of shield and carnyx identify them as Gauls, and the design refers to Caesar's victories over them."
If you can look at a coin and say with certainly that that is what it depicts, you are a better man than me.
If you are just taking someone else's word for it, you're not. Personally, I can't even be sure that the coin depicts the Karnyx - to my eye they could just as easily be battle axes. Do you know who originally interpreted them as Karnyxes? is it a source you trust?
>>"So, the shield and carnyx were trophies. Rather odd, don't you think, if the Romans had them in the back of the van to "introduce" them to the natives?"
Not at all. The Romans occupied Spain in 200BC. That coin was minted in 45 or 46BC. I'm not disputing that the Karnyx was adopted and became a celtic instrument. But if you want to argue against the generally held belief that it spread through Celtic Europe in the hands of the legions, you would need to prove that it was in use in some Celtic area BEFORE Roman occupation, not 150 years after.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by skreech
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"The Macedonian shields the goddess Aetolia is seated on are obviously those of the winning side "
How do you work that out? The coins are from the time of the Ætolian League - apparently they weren't too friendly towards Macedon in that period.
Not that it matters - the carnyx is clearly associated with the Gauls.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
>>"Apparently, the earliest depiction of a carnyx is on Ætolian coins of around 279 BC. The carnyx, along with Gaulish and Macedonian shields lies beneath the feet of Ætolia, and represents victory over those people:
"The seated figure of Aetolia on some of the above coins is certainly a copy of the statue of that heroine dedicated by the Aetolians at Delphi, γυναικοσ αγαλμα ωπλισμενης, η Αιτωλια δηθεν (Paus. x. 18. 7), in memory of their victory over the Gauls. Beneath her feet on the tetradrachms is a Gaulish trumpet (carnyx) ending in the head of a wolf or dragon, and some of the shields on which she is seated are of the Gaulish and others of the Macedonian pattern, the former sometimes inscribed Α, the initial of the Gaulish leader Acichorius, and the latter ΛΥ, perhaps standing for Lyciscus, the Macedonian general (B. M. C., Thes., p. lvii)."
And since when were Ætolia and Macedonia Celtic? This is just more evidence that the Romans had encountered the Karnyx long before they started occupying Celtic Europe. It would make sense to me to assume that after this date, Macedonians and Ætoliana conscripted into the Roman Legions would take their instruments with them. And since there is absolutely no evidince that Celts had the Karnyx prior to contact with the Legions, it is reasonable to assume that this is where they first encountered the instrument.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by skreech
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"But if you want to argue against the generally held belief that it spread through Celtic Europe in the hands of the legions"
What generally held belief? I don't need to prove anything. It was you who suggested that it was introduced by the Romans. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever to support that.
"Personally, I can't even be sure that the coin depicts the Karnyx - to my eye they could just as easily be battle axes. Do you know who originally interpreted them as Karnyxes? is it a source you trust?"
Didn't you link to that picture of a coin? Did you not ask "and see if you can spot anything that indicates the Karnyxes are 'spoils of war'."
I did spot something - the text accompanying the picture suggested that this was a tropæum.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"And since when were Ætolia and Macedonia Celtic?"
Geez.....Don't you get it? Ætolia was seated on a symbollic depiction of victory over the Gauls. The shields and the carnyx.
"This is proved by the reverse type of the tetradrachm, which contains a distinct allusion to the repulse both of Macedonians and Gauls by the Aetolians. "
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
There must be something to be learnt from history, even in the virtual world. Or is that simply blind optimism?
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Aye - it doesn't matter how good your carnyx is in war, if it sounds crap it's not going to make it into a session.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Weejie - You're right about the Aetolians being enemies / rivals of Macedonia in the early c3 B.C., not subjects or fellows - I hadn't known that.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by nicholas
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Just for your humility, Nicholas, I'll spare you the planned rendition of Auld Lang Syne on the carnyx outside your hoose in a few hours.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Didn't Celts sack Rome at about that time? (What with Celtic and Carthaginian invasions, seems like the Romans got as good as they gave, at least during the period when their empire was starting out.) The invading Celts could have presumably looted Roman "musical" instruments that took their fancy.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
>>" Geez.....Don't you get it? Ætolia was seated on a symbollic depiction of victory over the Gauls. The shields and the carnyx"
No I don't get it at all. You took exception to my statement that the Karnyx arrived in Austria with the Roman Legions. You cite as evidence a coin showing that it was known in Macedonia or Ætolia prior to The Romans moving North. How does that work? We know that both the Romans and Greeks had very similar instruments (the Lituus and Salpynx) that were used in battle in the same manner as the Karnyx at least two hundred years before that coin was struck, so it really doesn't tell us much, certainly not whenor how the instrument spread Northwards.
The truth is, it is all conjecture anyway, no one knows for sure, and neither of us are experts in the field.
In that situation I am quite happy to go along with the musicologists who ARE experts in the field:
Geiringer: "...the karynx, an instrument used in every district inhabited by the Celts, who were apparently introduced to it by Roman Legionairies."
If you want to believe something different that's fine. But don't tell me I am wrong.
# Posted on December 31st 2011 by skreech
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"You cite as evidence a coin showing that it was known in Macedonia or Ætolia prior to The Romans moving North. How does that work? "
It came with the Gauls, silly.
"We know that both the Romans and Greeks had very similar instruments (the Lituus and Salpynx)
The lituus was basically an Etruscan instrument - there is no hard evidence to support claims that the carnyx developed from that. There is also the lur (mentioned earlier) which existence predates the Roman expansion in the west.
"The truth is, it is all conjecture anyway, no one knows for sure, and neither of us are experts in the field."
I've said as much about twenty miles back.
"I am quite happy to go along with the musicologists who ARE experts in the field:"
Geiringer:
Karl Geiringer? Wasn't he a biographer of classical composers and an authority on certain composers under that category? Wasn't his thesis on instruments in Renaissance painting or something? OK, he wrote a book on the history of western instruments - that doesn't make him an authority. A bit of argumentum ad verecundiam involved there. Moreover, I'm not sure if that quote is verbatim, but that word "karynx" is decidedly dodgy.
"If you want to believe something different that's fine. But don't tell me I am wrong."
I haven't said you were wrong, nor that I believed anything. However, I did question your very bold statement:
"So we don't really think of it as a Celtic instrument."
It does seem that the vast majority of historians do think of it as a Celtic instrument. I asked you to explain how you arrived at such a conclusion. It seems that you base it on the word of an expert on Haydn.
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
"It came with the Gauls, silly. "
In the words of Justinus (Historiarum Philippicarum), on the attack on Delphi by the Gauls:
"Quamobrem et hominum clamor et si quando accedit tubarum sonus, personantibus et respondentibus inter se rupibus multiplex audiri ampliorque quam editur resonare solet. Quae res maiorem maiestatis terrorem ignaris rei et admirationem stupentibus plerumque adfert."
My Latin is a wee bit rusty, but the gist of it is:
The sound of the shouting and sounding of trumpets (that's the carnyces) echoing off the rocks was enough to scare the sheight out of anyone, but was awesome forbye.
# Posted on January 1st 2012 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Then, the earliest Celtic carnyxes(tubarum sonus) were not wrested from defeated Romans as battle trophies, nor were they looted from Roman music emporia. Were the Roman noisemakers significantly different in design and manufacture from those of the Celts?
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Tubarum sonus = sound of trumpets (nominative plural is "tubae"). Well, how different can a tube and mouthpiece be?
Judge for yourself - some examples:
http://poliremi.altervista.org/immagini/romani/lituus.jpg
http://www.arbre-celtique.com/etude/02-societe/guerre/carnyx1b.jpg
http://abel.hive.no/trumpet/salpinx/salpinx.jpg
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Thanks for the clarification. (Some of us had but one year of Latin.) (My English is little better.) I remember seeing a genuine Celtic horn on display in the Irish National Museum. The thing looked identical to the horns used by the Roman legionnaires as depicted in my school books.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
The specimen in question was of the long curlycue variety, having an embossed sole instead of a bell that its maker soldered on the end of a very, very shallow taper. The old Celt would seem to have worn it as well as played it.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Unfortunately, I experienced priests waffling on in Latin during mass - and had to recite it, later to actually study enough of it to make out what they were waffling on about.
There are some quite early horns in that museum - two from around 800 - 600 BC. The Carnyx might well have developed from these. However, their use wasn't restricted to Celts, the Dacians used to scare the sheight out of people with them too.
I wonder if the horn you saw was one of these?
http://www.museum.ie/en/exhibition/list/ten-major-pieces.aspx?article=c2714a87-7cb8-4f4c-87dd-b63ce0d33b39
http://www.museum.ie/en/list/artefacts.aspx?article=69bbdf36-f978-48df-a3f7-99f837a74a01
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by Weejie
Re: Austrian Celtic tunes
Quite a historical lesson there. Some did say the Carnyx (spelled right this time) sounds, when played well, like the human voice, which can be interpreted in several ways seeing as we are capable of obnoxious bellowing as well as harmonious song.
Even if they sound terrifying they'd be fun to mess around with.
# Posted on January 2nd 2012 by darach