I went to my first real session in a pub on Sunday. When the count of people participating rose to about 14, I noticed something a little funny. They were all men of about 35+ years of age except for me, a 16 year old girl at my first ever session. I believe it worked to my advantage.They humored me and let me pick a few tunes, and I felt pretty comfortable (my dad was there too, that helped greatly). Are men normally in the majority at the average session? I know that 99.3% of session goers are perfectly decent people, but the age-old combination of several men and beer is something every good mother teaches her daughter to stay away from. ;D
"There's nothing like whiskey to make maidens frisky, it soon separates all the men from the boys"
I think your mum's right - but it's not so much the beer as the endless nights of practising the same tune over and over that she has to worry about.
Having said that, every session I've been to here in Aus has been a pretty good mix. Best to mix the seating since a decent beer gut every second player gives you that bit more elbow room to stretch the bellows...
Let's see, our local sesh tonight included five women and six men, an average turnout for us. Most of us are 45 and older, though we do have youngsters join us fairly often--a handful of teenagers who play the tunes and all of whom have parents who play.
Hours spent in pubs at sessions usually means you're single, have a very tolerant partner or a partner who plays as well!! Having crawled out of a pub at 6.30 am to go straight to work I'm also lucky to have had tolerant bosses as well!!
Depends. in rural communities lots of women and men of all ages turn up probably because sessions are an integral part of community life.
In Dublin, a majority of men seem to play but that doesn't mean some women don't. Age groups? Middle aged/older people seem to stick together with the odd young learner present. Younger accomplished musos seem to prefer eachother's company.
Pretty standard social behaviour, it seems to me.
In Edinburgh area it's about 50:50, these days. However, I've got to admit that the women are probably the better players, especially among the younger musicians.
Back to your original questions. I can't speak for the "average session" but at the ones I regularly attend locally, and less frequently across the USA, I've found the ratio to be about 50%-50%. In my own local, the core band is 1/4 quarter female, while the balance is also about 50%-50%; ages range approx 16-50.
Your implicit question: the fact of the matter is that much of the social atmosphere of this music (in the 21st century) occurs in environments in which men, women, and drink (and often tobacco, and sometimes cannabis and latex) intersect. This need not mean "anything bad" is likely to ensue--but if you're a person under 21 (in the States), and unused to these situations, it can be a little alien. One needs to learn smart skills for coping with these environments.
We had a similar situation with our local over the past several years as a number of young people your age have begun participating. In the case of one person in particular, who was 16 when she became involved, she and her parents worked out the ground-rules in advance, and took things in stages.
They began by accompanying her to the Saturday teaching sessions and waiting while the session went on. Then, after a month or so, her parents would drop her off at beginning and pick her up at end of the session.
Then they began accompanying her to the pub session (which was not easy for them, as it involved a bar environment that's not really part of their social milieu). But they were very careful not to be invasive or over-protective: for example, her parents would *always* find a table at the other end of the room, well away from the session table, so as not to "hang over her".
After about 4 months of teaching session/pub session attendance, I mentioned to her parents, in her presence, that there was a summer trad-music workshop coming up in an adjacent state and that I thought it would be a "very good learning situation" for this young person. I and our flute player (who was brought up in a very conservative religious denomination and is sensitive to parents' concerns) encouraged her parents to think about whether they could make this work, and told them that we would be very willing to be this person's "safety net" in the absence of the parents.
In the event, this young person attended the workshop, had a great experience, impressed the bejeepers out of the fiddle faculty, and coped very well with the kinds of behaviors that go on at some American camps--massive beer-drinking, all-night sessions, black bears in the late-night woods, "old guys" who were incapable of distinguishing between 17- and 18-year-olds (a very significant legal distinction), incendiary red and green burrito sauces, various people smoking various things, and so on.
Along about Thursday of the week, she and I had a nice breakfast conversation during which we talked about how, in order to really gain what can be gained from the music, people sometimes have to put themselves into environments, or put up with behaviors, of which they might individually disapprove. And we both agreed that it was worth the extra effort to find adequate coping mechanisms, for the sake of learning the music.
She's going off to college this fall, still playing fiddle, with an ear like a bear-trap and a good-sized repertoire, and will probably do an overseas college semester in Ireland while I'm teaching at UC Cork.
I don't think she would have been able to develop so impressively had she avoided any and all "dubious" situations. Both she and her parents (GREAT parents) deserve a lot of credit.
Before anybody jumps in to express an opinion about what's right or wrong with what I've described above, let me reiterate that I'm speaking only of one person, coming into the music in one particular situation, from one particular social background, in one particular (fairly conservative but musically very supportive) region of the USA. Obviously, YMMV.
The sessions around here in Manchester tend to be male dominated but I don't think there is any problem for women; it's just the way it works out.
The only down side with women at sessions is that they have absolutely no idea how to fart loudly, and with amusing timing.
I don't know if you would have been happier at our last main session (We have 2/month, a big one and a small one). We had 4 fiddlers, all female. Yes/No??
mairtin
I used to marvel at the fiddle player in my band, who was a rather petite young lady, and her ability to handle the, uh, atmosphere in the local sessions. Not that she was the only female playing by any means, but no question there was a solid majority of fellahs, and it seemed a goodly amount of them were in their mid-30s and older (she was in her late 20s at the time), and often between relationships, as they say. Often for good reason, too.
But she dealt with their flattery and flirting -- musical and non-musical -- in an effective way, being generally nonchalant and not taking any overt offense. The best instance was when an acquaintance of ours, having sampled more than a few pints, asked her in rather graphic terms if she would be interested in hosting him for the night. She replied as casually as if he had asked whether it might rain: "No, I don't think so. Thanks!"
His response was something along the lines of "AwGawblessya," and then he went away and the music started up again.
I don't really like playing in sessions with other girls. It brings out the Jealous Bitch Queen within me and that really isn't attractive. This comes from my first experiences of playing sessions with girls my own age coming from festival atmospheres where I was so overwhelmed that nothing was fun.
Now I have several good girl friends who play music and I love having some tunes with them. We play music together as friends first, musicians second. It's something we do instead of watching movies or girl stuff like criticising each other and thinking we're fat.
I've always been more of a GuyGirl (TM) in that I have more guy friends than girl friends. I like sessions because I get to hang out with a lot of guys, even if the guys are 70-year-old men. I also feel that the balance of SessionPower (TM) swings slightly in my direction when I'm in the minority. Women are the minority in all the sessions I attend.
I'm most comfortable if I'm the only female invited to a session--which isn't hard to manage because I'm 21 and rather lithe. I won't lie, either, and say I don't use that to my advantage. Countless invitations are extended and mistakes forgiven by the simple act of wearing a flattering skirt.
So let the males bond away! Don't forget that sessions are a great place for women to be women, too. As you grow into your womanliness, don't be afraid to use it to your advantage but never, ever, ever become a SessionSlut (TM) or think that your only contribution to a session is your flattering skirt. The world's most flattering skirt will not get a bad musician invited anywhere worth going.
Spot on - I too have used the flattering skirt as my ticket in the session door. A little make up to hide the beard, a tight sweater over some strategically placed socks, and four-inch heels, and I'm in. Most male players seem to appreciate a little testosterone in their women, so nobody ever says anything about my voice or forearms....
I'm around the same age as you, and from a young age I have frequented many sessions in and around London, most with the same male:female ratio you described. Moreoften than not, there are no problems; however it's normally not the musicians you should look out for, it's the guys in the audience. Like you said, 99.3% are decent people, but it's always a good idea to go with someone you know; luckily for you, you have your own private body guard. Who says being a daddy's girl doesn't pay off? ;)
LOL - Will that's hilarious!!! I'm about to head off to my session. Too bad it's too cold for skirts......
Right now I'm the only woman at the session and that's fine with me. I don't care what sex attends the session, just as long as they are cool people and like to have some fun! A girlfriend who plays fiddle just had a baby so I will really miss her at the sessions. I wish Emily and Helen could come to our session : ).... I love men and find them facinating but it's always nice to have some cool girlfriends to hang with at the sessions.....
Suky...well...hey, at least you are honest with yourself...
Ok, I'm off like a prom dress......time for tunes.....
Speaking here as the father of a 16-year-old female fiddler - enjoy the slack they're cutting you, it's meant well, and as much due to the fact that you're young as that you're attractive (though the two are not unrelated). I agree with Joe that most sessions gravitate to like with like - even with a mass of musicians at a recent house party, of all ages, the sessions tended to separate into the young un's & the old f*rts (am I allowed to use the flatulent tense, Jeremy?). If you're worried that you're not meeting other people your age who are into the music - rest assured they are there, but you might have to poke around a bit to find them. Attending her first "proper" session, my daughter pointed to her drink, and said "I'm drinking cranberry juice - how _cool_ is that?" Frankly, most people find sessions more fun if they're drinking, so you might find more underage players at festivals & workshops etc. Also, again agreeing with Joe, the "hot young players" (around here that means 20-somethings) like to play with each other, and don't typically attend a lot of sessions, which consequently are dominated by an older crowd. But once you get to know them, I'm sure they'll be welcoming.
Suky, please tell me someone logged in under your password by mistake. If I didn't know you were such a good fiddle player firsthand, I'd say your comments were absolute embarrassment to serious female musicians everywhere.
I agree with emily's assessment of suky's comments. I really *really* hate it when women get catty or bitchy with each other, or say that they don't like to play with other women--because the only reason a woman wouldn't like to play with other women (or anyone, for that matter) is because they make her feel threatened. In my community, there is probably an equal distribution between the sexes in terms of session attendance, and there are *many* sessions (three/week). The women who attend these sessions are actually the better musicians in this community, and personally I would hate going to sessions if none of them were there (trust me, the last one I went to I was the only melody player and it sucked). These people are not only good girlfriends of mine, they are extremely competent individuals socially, professionally, and musically.
In my experience, if one is comfortable in one's abilities, and has a decent degree of self-confidence, they don't need to resort to a bitchy, catty attitude. They should feel that their playing will speak for itself--"flattering skirts" aside--and will be able to relate to other *people* as PEOPLE, not women to be competed with.
Do musicians have a gender at all?? I only see/hear musicians and couldn't care less what age, sex, religion etc they are - as long as they can play tunes.
I have to say though that there are more males than females in my generation of players by a long way and this probably goes back to the good old days when women weren't really accepted in public bars. [Ahhh the good old days ]
The younger generation of players around here, however, are predominantly female. I would guess that better than 60% of young musicians attending comhaltas in Down are girls and certainly the vast majority of those that attend our sessions are, with the notable excpetion of the Murphy brothers.
I must say if I were a young lad in my teens I'd be down at the comhaltas like a flash!!
This is a little embarrassing, but i too have to admit, i've used the gender thing to my advantage. When i strut into a mostly-female session with my shirt opened just enough to show a glimpse of strong pecs and lushy, musky hair, and my flute held aloft by a a pair of strong arms where the biceps move around like a herd of young proud Volkswagens, then i have to say, even before i set down my rock-hard buttocks on a chair and start to play, women are already fainting.
I went to my session last night looking like the Michelin Man, dressed in 3 layers of winter thermo-tech and fleece and a huge down jacket...and one of those big Russion fake fur hats to top it all offf........
I, on the other hand, appreciated Suky's comments, as they explained some behaviour I've seen at sessions. Going to sessions with a musician partner who turned into a JBQ when other women were present was a big surprise, and I've always wondered why -- now I know.
And I thought it was just about learning a zillion tunes...
Yeah Joyce but you had on your full-body lycra catsuit on underneath, slowly peeeeeeled off your parka to reveal your sleek, nay, lithe bike racing torso, ready to kick the butt of any other invading female.... not that breandan would notice, of course.... ;)
As for Glauber, why do you think I ditched you in Vegas? I seriously can't be around those toxicly high levels of male pheromones... that's why I prefer my session-mates less threatening, like Will, for instance, his flattering skirt makes me feel 'safe'... With you & Suky in the same session, I can't believe the Kerry Piper just doesn't self-destruct with all the SessionPowerPlays (TM) going on.
Suky's comments are fine as long as they're understood as The World According to Suky (who is perfectly entitled to her views) rather than a statement on behalf of all womanhood.
Unfortunately, people often enough seem to read comments by one woman and assume they apply to all. (I guess the came applies to comments by men, too.) I resent it warmly when people insist on re-interpreting my behaviour in terms of gender stereotypes. Next time I'm having a bad day because the cat threw up in my best pair of shoes and I missed the bus and my umbrella blew inside out on the way to work and I arrive in a filthy mood, is someone who's read the above or similar going to say, "Aha! There's another woman engineer in the room, it must be a JBQ outbreak, watch out!!!" ???
Personally, it would never occur to me to view another musician of either gender as competition. If someone's a better player than I am, it doesn't make me a worse one, and good luck to 'em. And if I thought my playing was tolerated at a session due to a flattering outfit when the same playing wouldn't be indulged in a man or a frumpier woman, I doubt I'd be back.
But I don't speak for all womanhood either, of course, that's just my $0.02AUS. (Which at the moment seems to be worth more than at any time in the last eight years or so! 8>)
This is oh so funny you guys! If someone who has been playing for as long as I have, or less than I have is seemingly a better musician than me (male or female), I get jealous for a little bit. Then I get serious--time to put the pedal to the mettle (spelled right? mixed metaphor?) and get cranking on the practicing. If they can do it, I can do it. It quickly goes from jealousy to inspiration.
Now if a pretty woman showed up (in a flattering skirt TM) and was seriously flirting with my man (or someone I had a crush on in my on pre-married days), I'd probably get jealous. But it has not happened (yet) so I can't say for sure. I'm an Aries and a Dragon and a 9 Fire, so you never can tell when the fire will break out...
Sorry Emily and Glauber, no fashionable sunglasses or catsuits (ouch!, but good one!)
Hey I whish some women would invade my local session so we could gang up on the boys once in a while ; )
Calling all women in the Vermont area who play Irish traditional music to come down to the Radio Bean session in Burlington VT on wed nights.....we could really use another wooden flute and currently have no box players who come out to the session on a regular basis........anyone out there???????????????????? Seriously if you are, please email me through the site.
Hmmmmm..... about 4-6 women in the group dep on who all of them shows up... between 6 and 15 men. Averages out to about 5 women and 10 men most nights.
Ren Faires will drive you mad, whether you are vendor, street charachter, or performer... yet still we persist (and spend our profits on things to do with the faire of course)!!! LOL
Thanks to Tish and David A for being perceptive and defending me a little. I'll admit that when I re-read my comment it sounded more manipulative than I remembered it but no less truthful. Yes, I use what I have to get things I want (gigs, invites, free pints) but no, it isn't necessarily right all the time. Any of the time, really, if I were a GoodPerson (TM)...
Tish, most of the invites have been extended only after I've been heard playing: they're not sound-unheard (as opposed to sight-unseen) invitations. Sometimes a little prettiness just helps break a barrier or add the right amount of impetus.
Emily, I'm sorry if you took offense at my comments. They come from a particularly personal experience. I never intended to include all of womanhood in with them. _I_ had bad experiences playing sessions with girls my age thus _I_ dislike playing sessions with girls my age until I've gotten to know them. That isn't to say that Everywoman hates Allotherwomen. It's just me and my life. I don't hate all other women--some of them just make me feel uncomfortable when I play tunes.
I also admire all of you who spurned my admission of jealousy. How noble of you.
Need I think twice before being honest again?
"Need I think twice before being honest again?" I don't know, do you? (Actually, this is one of my "think on it" topics lately -- it seems that "honest" has somehow become a global excuse for saying whatever we like regardless of possible fallout, I'm not sure how or why, not that I'm referring to this particular situation, but the word "honest" makes me perk up my ears right now.)
Personally, I didn't find the post all *that* objectionable, mainly for the same reasons Tish had and found the post rather funny. Besides which, once upon a time, as a project manager working with techies (back when I was younger and prettier and thinner), I was not above doing a little mild flirting to make a deadline or help a rescue along, so who am I to talk? But I'd never have been honest about that mildly unsavory manipulation at the time, because then that particular tool would have done me no good any longer.
Now that I don't need to have that ready to pull out of the pocket, I can admit it. ;)
Hey Suky, you know I've done some thinking about your post, & please, no worries about offending me, you didn't, but you did raise an issue which you yourself are sensitive to, ie feeling threatened by other women in sessions. Obviously you've been playing longer than me, & besides, have spent time in Ireland & are comfortable holding your own in sessions. However, I'm a bit older, not a complete ogre & have spent a good chunk of my life battling the anti-dumb blonde bias, which is where I'm coming from. My personal view is that when I show up at a session, I don't want my gender to be an issue, as breandan mentioned, so I try to dress appropriately. Um, I don't know what that means, I do wear my glasses & often will pull my hair back. I prefer a casual, dressed down, & you might even say, 'unthreatening' look, now that you've raised the topic. I want both men & women in a session to regard me as a player, & nothing more. Not a threat to a husband/bf or a potential hook-up, etc. On the other hand, when I see a woman in a session dressed up, say, in an intentionally flattering skirt, what is the message she is sending to the other players? To men, it seems she is sending a signal about her sexuality, & as you say, other women might feel threatened. Do you find yourself threatened by thin women more than fat women? Well-dressed women more than sloppily dressed? Or just by better players? By dressing well, you are definitely addressing your own insecurities wrt women by using a good offense rather than a defense, that is to say, by looking good, you already hold a slight position of power over them, even if you aren't intentionally being flirtatious. Obviously your playing is so good that it's basically a non-issue in terms of being accepted, but think of the rookie who shows up wearing a short skirt, makeup & heels, how does that affect the dynamics of the session? Yes, some men will appreciate the eye candy, but if she can't play, it simply undermines her motives for being there &, I think, can ruin the craic.
I'm on lunch break so will have to cut this short, but I do appreciate your honesty, but for my own purposes, I still go for the librarian look at sessions, b/c I'm smart, I'm a good player, & frankly I don't want my gender to interfere with the music. Now if I've been to a particular session for a good while, & show up wearing a bustier & snakeskin pants, I'd expect a good slagging, but would probably end up spending most of my time at the bar getting free pints from the bartender. *grin*
Gotta run, more later, looking forward to your thoughts....
Well, hello there all. "Do i need to think before i'm completely, charmingly and disarmingly honest about using discreet promises of sex to encourage men to help me in the pursuit of my goals?" Yes you do. Actually, you should think before you do most things, especially, put this at the top of your list, posting on an Internet discussion group. What you have here is a group that's extremely diverse in their locations, experiences, nationalities, ages, sexual experiences, tollerances, and pretty much everything else. While here in the ultra-conservative American Midwest, it's relatively safe to act flirtatious in a pub, in other parts of the world it might not be. So the range of reactions to your comments will be very wide. It's very hard, but you need to always think twice before posting something especially here, where you can't change your mind and edit your submission later.
In fact, i think in most of these posts, people are just showing their love and concern for you. Except my previous post, that was really an attempt to convey what i look like and how i behave in sessions. But really, people see a lithe young fiddle player who apparently knows her stuff, and it fills their heart with hope, that this music thing will go on. They feel a little protective too, because they've lived long enough to see the things that lurk in the darker corners of this world.
Anyway, some things you have to learn on your own. Mankind, as Douglas Adams once wrote, is the only animal capable of learning from the experiences of others of our kind, but also shows a marked unwillingness to do so, so who's less intelligent, us or the other animals? It's not only young people, of course, who generally don't know that the rest of the world doesn't always have the same things behind their eyes as we do. But everybody finds that out in their own time.
What p*ssed me off, personally, was that nobody ever told me that there's nobody who is truly a Grown Up -- you never reach that magical stage, because there's always somebody who is smarter, more mature, and more able to deal with everything that makes up Life than you are.
Anyway, I personally might be envious of someone, especially if they have something that I never had or will never have that I want to have, but rarely jealous.
I will say, though, Em, that walking behind you through a crowded bar is *hilarious*, and watching men watch you is one of my favorite things about hanging out with you. Just so you know, the librarian look doesn't diminish your effect at all. *grin* But you get points for trying.
Awww Zina *achoo!* that was the best Valentine's Day present ever...! (The check's in the mail....) I'm going to shuffle back off to bed now, there's no doubt I'd turn heads anywhere in public at the way I look today.... *achoo!*
PS WRT to PP, I find that farting (& belching) loudly & on command can also be a powerful tool to be wielded in any session situation, a must-have weapon in your session arsenal, ladies! (Also retain a respected mentor in this field, El Guapo taught me a few brilliant tricks in this capacity, ie the Brazilian rumble, the Hinsdale bomber, etc....)
Uh yeah Emily, I was going to say something like what Zina just did as well. If you're really cute, there's no way getting around it unless you wear a mask or something. But I do know what you mean about the librarian look--that's my look for work almost every day, alternating with the stock-boy-in-the-grocery-store look.
Hmmm, well, if your husband starts flirting with a young, lissom, and lithe fiddler, would you be envious or jealous of your husband? (I suppose one might be envious of the fiddler but jealous of the husband.)
I suppose every language has words that are pretty close but are separated out only by shades of meaning, really. To me, to be envious means wanting to have whatever somebody else has, because you don't have it or have it to less degree (or, possibly, are unaware that you in fact do have whatever it is that you're being envious of). To be jealous means that you in fact have whatever it is and are defending territory.
Like Lewis Carrol once wrote, I suppose words mean whatever we say they mean, really, so that's only my definition of the two words. YMMV!
Session = Male Bonding?
Session = Male Bonding?
I went to my first real session in a pub on Sunday. When the count of people participating rose to about 14, I noticed something a little funny. They were all men of about 35+ years of age except for me, a 16 year old girl at my first ever session. I believe it worked to my advantage.They humored me and let me pick a few tunes, and I felt pretty comfortable (my dad was there too, that helped greatly). Are men normally in the majority at the average session? I know that 99.3% of session goers are perfectly decent people, but the age-old combination of several men and beer is something every good mother teaches her daughter to stay away from. ;D
# Posted on February 10th 2004 by Emmaline
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
"There's nothing like whiskey to make maidens frisky, it soon separates all the men from the boys"
I think your mum's right - but it's not so much the beer as the endless nights of practising the same tune over and over that she has to worry about.
Having said that, every session I've been to here in Aus has been a pretty good mix. Best to mix the seating since a decent beer gut every second player gives you that bit more elbow room to stretch the bellows...
# Posted on February 10th 2004 by bc_box_player
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Let's see, our local sesh tonight included five women and six men, an average turnout for us. Most of us are 45 and older, though we do have youngsters join us fairly often--a handful of teenagers who play the tunes and all of whom have parents who play.
# Posted on February 10th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Hours spent in pubs at sessions usually means you're single, have a very tolerant partner or a partner who plays as well!! Having crawled out of a pub at 6.30 am to go straight to work I'm also lucky to have had tolerant bosses as well!!
# Posted on February 10th 2004 by Tarrantella
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Depends. in rural communities lots of women and men of all ages turn up probably because sessions are an integral part of community life.
In Dublin, a majority of men seem to play but that doesn't mean some women don't. Age groups? Middle aged/older people seem to stick together with the odd young learner present. Younger accomplished musos seem to prefer eachother's company.
Pretty standard social behaviour, it seems to me.
# Posted on February 10th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
in my session its pretty much all men. we did have this amazing fiddle player called becky but she moved away.
# Posted on February 10th 2004 by NickPhelan
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
In Edinburgh area it's about 50:50, these days. However, I've got to admit that the women are probably the better players, especially among the younger musicians.
John
# Posted on February 10th 2004 by Johannes J
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
As the saying is, Emmaline: You've made a happy man feel very old.
At our friday session, even the women are men.
Dave
# Posted on February 10th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Emmaline:
Back to your original questions. I can't speak for the "average session" but at the ones I regularly attend locally, and less frequently across the USA, I've found the ratio to be about 50%-50%. In my own local, the core band is 1/4 quarter female, while the balance is also about 50%-50%; ages range approx 16-50.
Your implicit question: the fact of the matter is that much of the social atmosphere of this music (in the 21st century) occurs in environments in which men, women, and drink (and often tobacco, and sometimes cannabis and latex) intersect. This need not mean "anything bad" is likely to ensue--but if you're a person under 21 (in the States), and unused to these situations, it can be a little alien. One needs to learn smart skills for coping with these environments.
We had a similar situation with our local over the past several years as a number of young people your age have begun participating. In the case of one person in particular, who was 16 when she became involved, she and her parents worked out the ground-rules in advance, and took things in stages.
They began by accompanying her to the Saturday teaching sessions and waiting while the session went on. Then, after a month or so, her parents would drop her off at beginning and pick her up at end of the session.
Then they began accompanying her to the pub session (which was not easy for them, as it involved a bar environment that's not really part of their social milieu). But they were very careful not to be invasive or over-protective: for example, her parents would *always* find a table at the other end of the room, well away from the session table, so as not to "hang over her".
After about 4 months of teaching session/pub session attendance, I mentioned to her parents, in her presence, that there was a summer trad-music workshop coming up in an adjacent state and that I thought it would be a "very good learning situation" for this young person. I and our flute player (who was brought up in a very conservative religious denomination and is sensitive to parents' concerns) encouraged her parents to think about whether they could make this work, and told them that we would be very willing to be this person's "safety net" in the absence of the parents.
In the event, this young person attended the workshop, had a great experience, impressed the bejeepers out of the fiddle faculty, and coped very well with the kinds of behaviors that go on at some American camps--massive beer-drinking, all-night sessions, black bears in the late-night woods, "old guys" who were incapable of distinguishing between 17- and 18-year-olds (a very significant legal distinction), incendiary red and green burrito sauces, various people smoking various things, and so on.
Along about Thursday of the week, she and I had a nice breakfast conversation during which we talked about how, in order to really gain what can be gained from the music, people sometimes have to put themselves into environments, or put up with behaviors, of which they might individually disapprove. And we both agreed that it was worth the extra effort to find adequate coping mechanisms, for the sake of learning the music.
She's going off to college this fall, still playing fiddle, with an ear like a bear-trap and a good-sized repertoire, and will probably do an overseas college semester in Ireland while I'm teaching at UC Cork.
I don't think she would have been able to develop so impressively had she avoided any and all "dubious" situations. Both she and her parents (GREAT parents) deserve a lot of credit.
Before anybody jumps in to express an opinion about what's right or wrong with what I've described above, let me reiterate that I'm speaking only of one person, coming into the music in one particular situation, from one particular social background, in one particular (fairly conservative but musically very supportive) region of the USA. Obviously, YMMV.
chris smith
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by coyotebanjo
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
The sessions around here in Manchester tend to be male dominated but I don't think there is any problem for women; it's just the way it works out.
The only down side with women at sessions is that they have absolutely no idea how to fart loudly, and with amusing timing.
TTFN
PP
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
I don't know if you would have been happier at our last main session (We have 2/month, a big one and a small one). We had 4 fiddlers, all female. Yes/No??
mairtin
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by frozenstiff
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
I used to marvel at the fiddle player in my band, who was a rather petite young lady, and her ability to handle the, uh, atmosphere in the local sessions. Not that she was the only female playing by any means, but no question there was a solid majority of fellahs, and it seemed a goodly amount of them were in their mid-30s and older (she was in her late 20s at the time), and often between relationships, as they say. Often for good reason, too.
But she dealt with their flattery and flirting -- musical and non-musical -- in an effective way, being generally nonchalant and not taking any overt offense. The best instance was when an acquaintance of ours, having sampled more than a few pints, asked her in rather graphic terms if she would be interested in hosting him for the night. She replied as casually as if he had asked whether it might rain: "No, I don't think so. Thanks!"
His response was something along the lines of "AwGawblessya," and then he went away and the music started up again.
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by sts
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
I don't really like playing in sessions with other girls. It brings out the Jealous Bitch Queen within me and that really isn't attractive. This comes from my first experiences of playing sessions with girls my own age coming from festival atmospheres where I was so overwhelmed that nothing was fun.
Now I have several good girl friends who play music and I love having some tunes with them. We play music together as friends first, musicians second. It's something we do instead of watching movies or girl stuff like criticising each other and thinking we're fat.
I've always been more of a GuyGirl (TM) in that I have more guy friends than girl friends. I like sessions because I get to hang out with a lot of guys, even if the guys are 70-year-old men. I also feel that the balance of SessionPower (TM) swings slightly in my direction when I'm in the minority. Women are the minority in all the sessions I attend.
I'm most comfortable if I'm the only female invited to a session--which isn't hard to manage because I'm 21 and rather lithe. I won't lie, either, and say I don't use that to my advantage. Countless invitations are extended and mistakes forgiven by the simple act of wearing a flattering skirt.
So let the males bond away! Don't forget that sessions are a great place for women to be women, too. As you grow into your womanliness, don't be afraid to use it to your advantage but never, ever, ever become a SessionSlut (TM) or think that your only contribution to a session is your flattering skirt. The world's most flattering skirt will not get a bad musician invited anywhere worth going.
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by suky
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
LOL - don't say you haven't been warned, gents. *smirk*
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Spot on - I too have used the flattering skirt as my ticket in the session door. A little make up to hide the beard, a tight sweater over some strategically placed socks, and four-inch heels, and I'm in. Most male players seem to appreciate a little testosterone in their women, so nobody ever says anything about my voice or forearms....
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by Will CPT
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
I doesn't want to know.....
O_o
-Padraig
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
I'm around the same age as you, and from a young age I have frequented many sessions in and around London, most with the same male:female ratio you described. Moreoften than not, there are no problems; however it's normally not the musicians you should look out for, it's the guys in the audience. Like you said, 99.3% are decent people, but it's always a good idea to go with someone you know; luckily for you, you have your own private body guard. Who says being a daddy's girl doesn't pay off? ;)
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by never-trust-a-violinist
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
LOL - Will that's hilarious!!! I'm about to head off to my session. Too bad it's too cold for skirts......
Right now I'm the only woman at the session and that's fine with me. I don't care what sex attends the session, just as long as they are cool people and like to have some fun! A girlfriend who plays fiddle just had a baby so I will really miss her at the sessions. I wish Emily and Helen could come to our session : ).... I love men and find them facinating but it's always nice to have some cool girlfriends to hang with at the sessions.....
Suky...well...hey, at least you are honest with yourself...
Ok, I'm off like a prom dress......time for tunes.....
Cheers,
Joyce
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by JMH
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Emmaline -
Speaking here as the father of a 16-year-old female fiddler - enjoy the slack they're cutting you, it's meant well, and as much due to the fact that you're young as that you're attractive (though the two are not unrelated). I agree with Joe that most sessions gravitate to like with like - even with a mass of musicians at a recent house party, of all ages, the sessions tended to separate into the young un's & the old f*rts (am I allowed to use the flatulent tense, Jeremy?). If you're worried that you're not meeting other people your age who are into the music - rest assured they are there, but you might have to poke around a bit to find them. Attending her first "proper" session, my daughter pointed to her drink, and said "I'm drinking cranberry juice - how _cool_ is that?" Frankly, most people find sessions more fun if they're drinking, so you might find more underage players at festivals & workshops etc. Also, again agreeing with Joe, the "hot young players" (around here that means 20-somethings) like to play with each other, and don't typically attend a lot of sessions, which consequently are dominated by an older crowd. But once you get to know them, I'm sure they'll be welcoming.
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by pm
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Suky, please tell me someone logged in under your password by mistake. If I didn't know you were such a good fiddle player firsthand, I'd say your comments were absolute embarrassment to serious female musicians everywhere.
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
I agree with emily's assessment of suky's comments. I really *really* hate it when women get catty or bitchy with each other, or say that they don't like to play with other women--because the only reason a woman wouldn't like to play with other women (or anyone, for that matter) is because they make her feel threatened. In my community, there is probably an equal distribution between the sexes in terms of session attendance, and there are *many* sessions (three/week). The women who attend these sessions are actually the better musicians in this community, and personally I would hate going to sessions if none of them were there (trust me, the last one I went to I was the only melody player and it sucked). These people are not only good girlfriends of mine, they are extremely competent individuals socially, professionally, and musically.
In my experience, if one is comfortable in one's abilities, and has a decent degree of self-confidence, they don't need to resort to a bitchy, catty attitude. They should feel that their playing will speak for itself--"flattering skirts" aside--and will be able to relate to other *people* as PEOPLE, not women to be competed with.
Crystal
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by crystal_bailey
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Do musicians have a gender at all?? I only see/hear musicians and couldn't care less what age, sex, religion etc they are - as long as they can play tunes.
I have to say though that there are more males than females in my generation of players by a long way and this probably goes back to the good old days when women weren't really accepted in public bars. [Ahhh the good old days
]
The younger generation of players around here, however, are predominantly female. I would guess that better than 60% of young musicians attending comhaltas in Down are girls and certainly the vast majority of those that attend our sessions are, with the notable excpetion of the Murphy brothers.
I must say if I were a young lad in my teens I'd be down at the comhaltas like a flash!!
# Posted on February 11th 2004 by breandan
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
This is a little embarrassing, but i too have to admit, i've used the gender thing to my advantage. When i strut into a mostly-female session with my shirt opened just enough to show a glimpse of strong pecs and lushy, musky hair, and my flute held aloft by a a pair of strong arms where the biceps move around like a herd of young proud Volkswagens, then i have to say, even before i set down my rock-hard buttocks on a chair and start to play, women are already fainting.
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by glauber
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
I went to my session last night looking like the Michelin Man, dressed in 3 layers of winter thermo-tech and fleece and a huge down jacket...and one of those big Russion fake fur hats to top it all offf........
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by JMH
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
And dark glasses, Joyce? I think that's the Russian Mafia look. Very fashionable, very glassnost.
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by glauber
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
I, on the other hand, appreciated Suky's comments, as they explained some behaviour I've seen at sessions. Going to sessions with a musician partner who turned into a JBQ when other women were present was a big surprise, and I've always wondered why -- now I know.
And I thought it was just about learning a zillion tunes...
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Yeah Joyce but you had on your full-body lycra catsuit on underneath, slowly peeeeeeled off your parka to reveal your sleek, nay, lithe bike racing torso, ready to kick the butt of any other invading female.... not that breandan would notice, of course.... ;)
As for Glauber, why do you think I ditched you in Vegas? I seriously can't be around those toxicly high levels of male pheromones... that's why I prefer my session-mates less threatening, like Will, for instance, his flattering skirt makes me feel 'safe'... With you & Suky in the same session, I can't believe the Kerry Piper just doesn't self-destruct with all the SessionPowerPlays (TM) going on.
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Now don't any of you go getting Martin started, we only just got him settled down...
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Suky's comments are fine as long as they're understood as The World According to Suky (who is perfectly entitled to her views) rather than a statement on behalf of all womanhood.
Unfortunately, people often enough seem to read comments by one woman and assume they apply to all. (I guess the came applies to comments by men, too.) I resent it warmly when people insist on re-interpreting my behaviour in terms of gender stereotypes. Next time I'm having a bad day because the cat threw up in my best pair of shoes and I missed the bus and my umbrella blew inside out on the way to work and I arrive in a filthy mood, is someone who's read the above or similar going to say, "Aha! There's another woman engineer in the room, it must be a JBQ outbreak, watch out!!!" ???
Personally, it would never occur to me to view another musician of either gender as competition. If someone's a better player than I am, it doesn't make me a worse one, and good luck to 'em. And if I thought my playing was tolerated at a session due to a flattering outfit when the same playing wouldn't be indulged in a man or a frumpier woman, I doubt I'd be back.
But I don't speak for all womanhood either, of course, that's just my $0.02AUS. (Which at the moment seems to be worth more than at any time in the last eight years or so! 8>)
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Tish
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
As long as it's mead in those tankards.
Hw�t we gardena...
sorry.
-P�draig
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Aaaagh, that'd make it a ren faire, wouldn't it???
(If I ever have to play "Belle qui tiens ma vie" for one more pavan and galliard set I'll run screaming down the road... &8># )
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Tish
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Aha... so iff it's the Guinness it's Irish... mead is a faire... so would Cutty Sark make it a Scottish Session?
Patricius
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
This is oh so funny you guys! If someone who has been playing for as long as I have, or less than I have is seemingly a better musician than me (male or female), I get jealous for a little bit. Then I get serious--time to put the pedal to the mettle (spelled right? mixed metaphor?) and get cranking on the practicing. If they can do it, I can do it. It quickly goes from jealousy to inspiration.
Now if a pretty woman showed up (in a flattering skirt TM) and was seriously flirting with my man (or someone I had a crush on in my on pre-married days), I'd probably get jealous. But it has not happened (yet) so I can't say for sure. I'm an Aries and a Dragon and a 9 Fire, so you never can tell when the fire will break out...
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by Andee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Sorry Emily and Glauber, no fashionable sunglasses or catsuits (ouch!, but good one!)
Hey I whish some women would invade my local session so we could gang up on the boys once in a while ; )
Calling all women in the Vermont area who play Irish traditional music to come down to the Radio Bean session in Burlington VT on wed nights.....we could really use another wooden flute and currently have no box players who come out to the session on a regular basis........anyone out there???????????????????? Seriously if you are, please email me through the site.
Joyce
# Posted on February 12th 2004 by JMH
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
: - )~
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by JMH
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Hmmmmm..... about 4-6 women in the group dep on who all of them shows up... between 6 and 15 men. Averages out to about 5 women and 10 men most nights.
Ren Faires will drive you mad, whether you are vendor, street charachter, or performer... yet still we persist (and spend our profits on things to do with the faire of course)!!! LOL
Take care,
John
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by McHaffie
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Thanks to Tish and David A for being perceptive and defending me a little. I'll admit that when I re-read my comment it sounded more manipulative than I remembered it but no less truthful. Yes, I use what I have to get things I want (gigs, invites, free pints) but no, it isn't necessarily right all the time. Any of the time, really, if I were a GoodPerson (TM)...
Tish, most of the invites have been extended only after I've been heard playing: they're not sound-unheard (as opposed to sight-unseen) invitations. Sometimes a little prettiness just helps break a barrier or add the right amount of impetus.
Emily, I'm sorry if you took offense at my comments. They come from a particularly personal experience. I never intended to include all of womanhood in with them. _I_ had bad experiences playing sessions with girls my age thus _I_ dislike playing sessions with girls my age until I've gotten to know them. That isn't to say that Everywoman hates Allotherwomen. It's just me and my life. I don't hate all other women--some of them just make me feel uncomfortable when I play tunes.
I also admire all of you who spurned my admission of jealousy. How noble of you.
Need I think twice before being honest again?
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by suky
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
"Need I think twice before being honest again?" I don't know, do you? (Actually, this is one of my "think on it" topics lately -- it seems that "honest" has somehow become a global excuse for saying whatever we like regardless of possible fallout, I'm not sure how or why, not that I'm referring to this particular situation, but the word "honest" makes me perk up my ears right now.)
Personally, I didn't find the post all *that* objectionable, mainly for the same reasons Tish had and found the post rather funny. Besides which, once upon a time, as a project manager working with techies (back when I was younger and prettier and thinner), I was not above doing a little mild flirting to make a deadline or help a rescue along, so who am I to talk? But I'd never have been honest about that mildly unsavory manipulation at the time, because then that particular tool would have done me no good any longer.
Now that I don't need to have that ready to pull out of the pocket, I can admit it. ;)
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
If you can't be honest, at least be serious. Honestly, there's too much levity on this site. Seriously.
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Hey Suky, you know I've done some thinking about your post, & please, no worries about offending me, you didn't, but you did raise an issue which you yourself are sensitive to, ie feeling threatened by other women in sessions. Obviously you've been playing longer than me, & besides, have spent time in Ireland & are comfortable holding your own in sessions. However, I'm a bit older, not a complete ogre & have spent a good chunk of my life battling the anti-dumb blonde bias, which is where I'm coming from. My personal view is that when I show up at a session, I don't want my gender to be an issue, as breandan mentioned, so I try to dress appropriately. Um, I don't know what that means, I do wear my glasses & often will pull my hair back. I prefer a casual, dressed down, & you might even say, 'unthreatening' look, now that you've raised the topic. I want both men & women in a session to regard me as a player, & nothing more. Not a threat to a husband/bf or a potential hook-up, etc. On the other hand, when I see a woman in a session dressed up, say, in an intentionally flattering skirt, what is the message she is sending to the other players? To men, it seems she is sending a signal about her sexuality, & as you say, other women might feel threatened. Do you find yourself threatened by thin women more than fat women? Well-dressed women more than sloppily dressed? Or just by better players? By dressing well, you are definitely addressing your own insecurities wrt women by using a good offense rather than a defense, that is to say, by looking good, you already hold a slight position of power over them, even if you aren't intentionally being flirtatious. Obviously your playing is so good that it's basically a non-issue in terms of being accepted, but think of the rookie who shows up wearing a short skirt, makeup & heels, how does that affect the dynamics of the session? Yes, some men will appreciate the eye candy, but if she can't play, it simply undermines her motives for being there &, I think, can ruin the craic.
I'm on lunch break so will have to cut this short, but I do appreciate your honesty, but for my own purposes, I still go for the librarian look at sessions, b/c I'm smart, I'm a good player, & frankly I don't want my gender to interfere with the music. Now if I've been to a particular session for a good while, & show up wearing a bustier & snakeskin pants, I'd expect a good slagging, but would probably end up spending most of my time at the bar getting free pints from the bartender. *grin*
Gotta run, more later, looking forward to your thoughts....
# Posted on February 13th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Well, hello there all. "Do i need to think before i'm completely, charmingly and disarmingly honest about using discreet promises of sex to encourage men to help me in the pursuit of my goals?" Yes you do. Actually, you should think before you do most things, especially, put this at the top of your list, posting on an Internet discussion group. What you have here is a group that's extremely diverse in their locations, experiences, nationalities, ages, sexual experiences, tollerances, and pretty much everything else. While here in the ultra-conservative American Midwest, it's relatively safe to act flirtatious in a pub, in other parts of the world it might not be. So the range of reactions to your comments will be very wide. It's very hard, but you need to always think twice before posting something especially here, where you can't change your mind and edit your submission later.
In fact, i think in most of these posts, people are just showing their love and concern for you. Except my previous post, that was really an attempt to convey what i look like and how i behave in sessions. But really, people see a lithe young fiddle player who apparently knows her stuff, and it fills their heart with hope, that this music thing will go on. They feel a little protective too, because they've lived long enough to see the things that lurk in the darker corners of this world.
El Guapo
# Posted on February 14th 2004 by glauber
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Oh, Zina, if those were Real Techies, showing a sexy little slide rule would have worked even better!
# Posted on February 14th 2004 by glauber
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Heh. Uh huh, Glauber. Uh huh, sure...
Anyway, some things you have to learn on your own. Mankind, as Douglas Adams once wrote, is the only animal capable of learning from the experiences of others of our kind, but also shows a marked unwillingness to do so, so who's less intelligent, us or the other animals? It's not only young people, of course, who generally don't know that the rest of the world doesn't always have the same things behind their eyes as we do. But everybody finds that out in their own time.
What p*ssed me off, personally, was that nobody ever told me that there's nobody who is truly a Grown Up -- you never reach that magical stage, because there's always somebody who is smarter, more mature, and more able to deal with everything that makes up Life than you are.
Anyway, I personally might be envious of someone, especially if they have something that I never had or will never have that I want to have, but rarely jealous.
I will say, though, Em, that walking behind you through a crowded bar is *hilarious*, and watching men watch you is one of my favorite things about hanging out with you. Just so you know, the librarian look doesn't diminish your effect at all. *grin* But you get points for trying.
# Posted on February 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Awww Zina *achoo!* that was the best Valentine's Day present ever...! (The check's in the mail....) I'm going to shuffle back off to bed now, there's no doubt I'd turn heads anywhere in public at the way I look today.... *achoo!*
PS WRT to PP, I find that farting (& belching) loudly & on command can also be a powerful tool to be wielded in any session situation, a must-have weapon in your session arsenal, ladies! (Also retain a respected mentor in this field, El Guapo taught me a few brilliant tricks in this capacity, ie the Brazilian rumble, the Hinsdale bomber, etc....)
# Posted on February 14th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Uh yeah Emily, I was going to say something like what Zina just did as well. If you're really cute, there's no way getting around it unless you wear a mask or something. But I do know what you mean about the librarian look--that's my look for work almost every day, alternating with the stock-boy-in-the-grocery-store look.
# Posted on February 14th 2004 by Andee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Zina, what's the difference between envious and jealous? I always thought that they were interchangeable......
# Posted on February 14th 2004 by Andee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Hmmm, well, if your husband starts flirting with a young, lissom, and lithe fiddler, would you be envious or jealous of your husband?
(I suppose one might be envious of the fiddler but jealous of the husband.)
I suppose every language has words that are pretty close but are separated out only by shades of meaning, really. To me, to be envious means wanting to have whatever somebody else has, because you don't have it or have it to less degree (or, possibly, are unaware that you in fact do have whatever it is that you're being envious of). To be jealous means that you in fact have whatever it is and are defending territory.
Like Lewis Carrol once wrote, I suppose words mean whatever we say they mean, really, so that's only my definition of the two words. YMMV!
# Posted on February 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Carroll. Sorry.
# Posted on February 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Session = Male Bonding?
Thanks Zina. I never realized that distinction before.
# Posted on February 15th 2004 by Andee