Trying to fit some O'Carolan pieces onto the whistle/pipes can be challenging as he had a fondness for leppin' from high notes to low notes right outside the range of these instruments.
I know it's a sin but when octave hopping doesn't work, I've re-written some notes. Has anyone else found a solution?
The most common problem is that low G in Hewlett. I play a GF double in place of it and in kind-of works and at the end of Mrs Judge, I transpose the last notes from Carolan's Welcome to avoid that low low B.
Octave jumping sort of works at the start of Mrs Judge and Grace Nugent (very similar), and also Baptist Johnston and at the end of Miss MacDermott.
Has anyone a source of dots for Carolan tunes adjusted to fit whistle or pipes? (I have the Waltons collection and O'Sullivan's scholarly volume).
I'm curious if anyone shares my opinion that Carolan tunes don't translate well to other instruments other than the harp, especially when played solo. They also tend to be rather boring even on harp. They're not awful; just not tunes I come back to very much.
Well, I've witnessed Laoise Kelly, Micheál Rooney, Floriane Blancke and Janet Harbison all play Carolan tunes on the harp and none has been boring in the slightest.
We have a spirited, twice-monthly session in Chelsea, MI in which we regularly play O'Carolan tunes. Have never heard anyone say that his music is boring. Try George Brabazon, Carolan's Draught, Bridget Cruise, Hewlet or Fanny Power (the last is not meant to be a political endorsement
You have it exactly right, if you don't like the tunes, leave them alone, life is too short to waste on tunes you don't enjoy.
My own observations on Carolan tunes - many of which I absoulutely adore, would more concern the use of ornamentation.
Over the years I have formed the opinion that many of the accepted trad techniques of ornamentation just don't work with Carolan tunes. Its often caused me to wonder if the ornamentation techniques that we use on other tunes evolved much later. I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that, its just my own thought.
I am, in particular, thinking that trills usually fit arolan tunes much better than rolls.
I can only back my theory up with the thought that, as Carolan was contemporary with the baroque style, his tunes benefit from being played with baroque styles of ornamentation. Of course, the fact that this stuff was written for harp is probably also a huge factor. I'm afraid that I do not know anything like enough about the logistical requirements of harping to make a judgement.
At best Turlough was contemporary. Without completely throwing the baby out with the bath water; why not forget what baroquians may have preferred & simply experiment. It's been a few hundred years. What would he be listening to in 2011?
So much for my gut reaction. Now, who is Paul Dooley?
Although Carolan wrote many tunes which are very catchy, he wrote some more which I find rather less so - the sort that you can listen to without being much the wiser at the end exactly what the tune *is*. Or was.
But I imagine that quite often he'd be making background wallpaper music as uproarious people raised the rafters and made inroads into the food and drink.
On a harp in those circumstances probably literally anything would do, provided it just went plinking on in a regular way and helped to garnish the convivial atmosphere.
Interesting that everyone here talks about Carolan "tunes." It is probably a good idea to remember that many of those tunes were composed as vehicles for lyrics. So, though doubtless well suited to the harp they might also need the text to be complete.
That said I don't find the music boring at all, but I do think it is far removed from the session music we usually talk about here. And, I also think the harmonizing some of those tunes is really hard. Consider something as simple as Eleanor Plunkett....
Oh yeah, those abc files at the old music project: They are in the key found in the O'Sullivan (sorry, I can't do the Irish properly) book. And many are not in the key in which I've commonly heard them and played them.
I have been playing George Brabazon, Hewlett, Sheebeg Sheemore, Lord Inchiquin, Fanny Powers and some others for years. I know but don't play Carolan's Concerto. They're okay, but I definitely prefer them on the harp, especially wire-strung. I just can't get excited about these tunes, except for an occasional change of pace.
Someone here said these tunes have lyrics. Do they really?
"Oh yeah, those abc files at the old music project: They are in the key found in the O'Sullivan (sorry, I can't do the Irish properly) book"
Erm, no, they are not.
"I immediately masticated all his careful scribery and converted them to the ABC files and GIF sheet music as well as converting the keys from Eb/Bb/R#demented to "user friendly" G, A, D, etc., "
I'm not going to go through them with a fine toothcomb, but the flat key tunes have been transposed that I have seen - the ABC files say which key they have been transposed from. An example picked at random, and checked with the original:
X:090occ
T:Miss MacMurray
C:Turlough O'Carolan (1670 - 1738)
C:ALLEGHRETTO
B:Complete Works Of Turlough O'Carolan (PB - no pub - no date - fleamarket find)
Z:to Noteworthy and MIDI by Chris Gilb; Translation to ABC and GIF copy by Vince Brennan
N:Transposed from Bb
I:abc2nwc
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:D
B|Bef g2f|efg B2A|GAB B2A|GAB d2B|
Bef g2g|gab a2g|gfe dgb|agf g2||
g/2a/2|bag agf|gfe efg|GAB d2B|Bef g2g|
B2A GAB|dcd Bef|g2b B2e|efd e2|]
Yes, some are in keys that might not correspond to those heard elsewhere - but as the tunes are also in NWC format, anyone with that software can transpose them in seconds.
"Someone here said these tunes have lyrics. Do they really?"
Yes. The O'Sullivan work contains many of the lyrics.
It seems that the transcriber doesn't understand key centre or modes, but that doesn't really matter. That can be determined by the player. They are transposed accurately.
So, I'll press ahead with my alterations to those tunes which fall outside the range of the pipes. One thing I have found out is that he wrote so many (over 200) that it is possible to find combinations, runs, flutterings in some of his other tunes to fill the bill. If anyone has managed to make these adjustments, I will happily share my own efforts with them.
As regards other matters raised -
-Some people don't like the music of O'Carolan: luckily there is a wide range of music in the world and they should have no difficulty finding something pleasing from other composers.
-The music only works on a harp: he wrote to play himself and he played the harp but then Concerto for French Horns was written by Mozart on a piano. (I can't play that on the pipes, by the way.)
I stand corrected on the issue of keys mentioned above. The oldmusic abc files are in "sharp keys," but sometimes not in the key you commonly hear the tune.
As to words or music first: It varies with the composer(s). For some they seem to "arrive" simultaneously. In other cases the words inspire the tune, and in still others the tune inspires the words. I've no idea what the case was with Carolan.
According to O'Sullivan, who cites Bunting's manuscripts, relating the words of an 'old harper': "Carolan always made the tune first and the poetry last".
Taking liberties with O'Carolan
Taking liberties with O'Carolan
Trying to fit some O'Carolan pieces onto the whistle/pipes can be challenging as he had a fondness for leppin' from high notes to low notes right outside the range of these instruments.
I know it's a sin but when octave hopping doesn't work, I've re-written some notes. Has anyone else found a solution?
The most common problem is that low G in Hewlett. I play a GF double in place of it and in kind-of works and at the end of Mrs Judge, I transpose the last notes from Carolan's Welcome to avoid that low low B.
Octave jumping sort of works at the start of Mrs Judge and Grace Nugent (very similar), and also Baptist Johnston and at the end of Miss MacDermott.
Has anyone a source of dots for Carolan tunes adjusted to fit whistle or pipes? (I have the Waltons collection and O'Sullivan's scholarly volume).
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by Ciotog
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
You might find this useful:
http://www.oldmusicproject.com/occ/tunes.html
The tunes have been transposed into friendly keys.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
I'm curious if anyone shares my opinion that Carolan tunes don't translate well to other instruments other than the harp, especially when played solo. They also tend to be rather boring even on harp. They're not awful; just not tunes I come back to very much.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by Ailin
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
'They also tend to be rather boring even on harp'
Hearing Paul Dooley play Carolan on the wirestrung harp years ago was quite a revelation to me.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
I'm puzzled why Ailin thinks that Carolan tunes are translated to the harp.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
Correction, too many 'others' confused me.
Well, I've witnessed Laoise Kelly, Micheál Rooney, Floriane Blancke and Janet Harbison all play Carolan tunes on the harp and none has been boring in the slightest.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
We have a spirited, twice-monthly session in Chelsea, MI in which we regularly play O'Carolan tunes. Have never heard anyone say that his music is boring. Try George Brabazon, Carolan's Draught, Bridget Cruise, Hewlet or Fanny Power (the last is not meant to be a political endorsement
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by dfost
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
Ailin,
You have it exactly right, if you don't like the tunes, leave them alone, life is too short to waste on tunes you don't enjoy.
My own observations on Carolan tunes - many of which I absoulutely adore, would more concern the use of ornamentation.
Over the years I have formed the opinion that many of the accepted trad techniques of ornamentation just don't work with Carolan tunes. Its often caused me to wonder if the ornamentation techniques that we use on other tunes evolved much later. I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that, its just my own thought.
I am, in particular, thinking that trills usually fit arolan tunes much better than rolls.
I can only back my theory up with the thought that, as Carolan was contemporary with the baroque style, his tunes benefit from being played with baroque styles of ornamentation. Of course, the fact that this stuff was written for harp is probably also a huge factor. I'm afraid that I do not know anything like enough about the logistical requirements of harping to make a judgement.
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
At best Turlough was contemporary. Without completely throwing the baby out with the bath water; why not forget what baroquians may have preferred & simply experiment. It's been a few hundred years. What would he be listening to in 2011?
So much for my gut reaction. Now, who is Paul Dooley?
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Paul Dooley at Crosses Of Annagh Pub;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB8Wonny5fs
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
Although Carolan wrote many tunes which are very catchy, he wrote some more which I find rather less so - the sort that you can listen to without being much the wiser at the end exactly what the tune *is*. Or was.
But I imagine that quite often he'd be making background wallpaper music as uproarious people raised the rafters and made inroads into the food and drink.
On a harp in those circumstances probably literally anything would do, provided it just went plinking on in a regular way and helped to garnish the convivial atmosphere.
I may be talking through my cogs, of course.
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by nicholas
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
Interesting that everyone here talks about Carolan "tunes." It is probably a good idea to remember that many of those tunes were composed as vehicles for lyrics. So, though doubtless well suited to the harp they might also need the text to be complete.
That said I don't find the music boring at all, but I do think it is far removed from the session music we usually talk about here. And, I also think the harmonizing some of those tunes is really hard. Consider something as simple as Eleanor Plunkett....
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by cboody
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
Oh yeah, those abc files at the old music project: They are in the key found in the O'Sullivan (sorry, I can't do the Irish properly) book. And many are not in the key in which I've commonly heard them and played them.
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by cboody
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
I have been playing George Brabazon, Hewlett, Sheebeg Sheemore, Lord Inchiquin, Fanny Powers and some others for years. I know but don't play Carolan's Concerto. They're okay, but I definitely prefer them on the harp, especially wire-strung. I just can't get excited about these tunes, except for an occasional change of pace.
Someone here said these tunes have lyrics. Do they really?
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by Ailin
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
"Oh yeah, those abc files at the old music project: They are in the key found in the O'Sullivan (sorry, I can't do the Irish properly) book"
Erm, no, they are not.
"I immediately masticated all his careful scribery and converted them to the ABC files and GIF sheet music as well as converting the keys from Eb/Bb/R#demented to "user friendly" G, A, D, etc., "
I'm not going to go through them with a fine toothcomb, but the flat key tunes have been transposed that I have seen - the ABC files say which key they have been transposed from. An example picked at random, and checked with the original:
X:090occ
T:Miss MacMurray
C:Turlough O'Carolan (1670 - 1738)
C:ALLEGHRETTO
B:Complete Works Of Turlough O'Carolan (PB - no pub - no date - fleamarket find)
Z:to Noteworthy and MIDI by Chris Gilb; Translation to ABC and GIF copy by Vince Brennan
N:Transposed from Bb
I:abc2nwc
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:D
B|Bef g2f|efg B2A|GAB B2A|GAB d2B|
Bef g2g|gab a2g|gfe dgb|agf g2||
g/2a/2|bag agf|gfe efg|GAB d2B|Bef g2g|
B2A GAB|dcd Bef|g2b B2e|efd e2|]
Yes, some are in keys that might not correspond to those heard elsewhere - but as the tunes are also in NWC format, anyone with that software can transpose them in seconds.
"Someone here said these tunes have lyrics. Do they really?"
Yes. The O'Sullivan work contains many of the lyrics.
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
It seems that the transcriber doesn't understand key centre or modes, but that doesn't really matter. That can be determined by the player. They are transposed accurately.
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
So, I'll press ahead with my alterations to those tunes which fall outside the range of the pipes. One thing I have found out is that he wrote so many (over 200) that it is possible to find combinations, runs, flutterings in some of his other tunes to fill the bill. If anyone has managed to make these adjustments, I will happily share my own efforts with them.
As regards other matters raised -
-Some people don't like the music of O'Carolan: luckily there is a wide range of music in the world and they should have no difficulty finding something pleasing from other composers.
-The music only works on a harp: he wrote to play himself and he played the harp but then Concerto for French Horns was written by Mozart on a piano. (I can't play that on the pipes, by the way.)
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by Ciotog
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
If the tunes were written as vehicles for the lyrics wouldn't the lyrics have been written before the tune?
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
I stand corrected on the issue of keys mentioned above. The oldmusic abc files are in "sharp keys," but sometimes not in the key you commonly hear the tune.
As to words or music first: It varies with the composer(s). For some they seem to "arrive" simultaneously. In other cases the words inspire the tune, and in still others the tune inspires the words. I've no idea what the case was with Carolan.
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by cboody
Re: Taking liberties with O'Carolan
According to O'Sullivan, who cites Bunting's manuscripts, relating the words of an 'old harper': "Carolan always made the tune first and the poetry last".
# Posted on December 28th 2011 by Weejie