I thought there may be a few here who may be interested in theory about chords and their relationships. I devised an alternative to the widely known circle of fifth, namely a "circle of thirds", which makes it easy to determine notes in major and minor chords and notes in a diatonic scale etc. I put it on my web site here: http://bracker.co/music/Music/TheCircleOfThirds
There is also a download link for a pdf file, for printing it out.
If you find it useful please spread the word.
No, it's two circle of fifths superimposed. I understand why you want to distinguish the traditional circle of fifths using capital letters. However, having them adjacent to lowercase thirds might not be helpful in visualizing the notes of a chord. It runs in conflict with notation systems which use upper & lowercase letters for notes in different octaves.
It is a different convention, one where major chords are written with an upper case letter for the base note, and minor chords with a lower case letter. It is a common practice in Germany for instance.
For specifying which notes are in a chord I don't think it is so important to adhere to some convention of using upper and lower case letters to distinguish between higher and lower octaves.
So, yes, it may look a little odd, but it is very helpful in seeing the relationships of major and minor chords.
As Hans says, it may be useful to those interested in theory about chords and their relationships. It would be good to hear some feedback from someone who teaches that sort of stuff.
It's usefulness probably does not relate directly to playing Irish traditional tunes, but it would have been a help to me when I was first learning guitar (in a previous life).
Fair play, Dave. The circle of fifths is useful in visualizing music theory based on diatonic major & minor chords. I wasn't being flippant in pointing out the significance of recognizing the octave (register); whether it be visual* or by hearing the chords. I am interested in music theory, though I caution against learning any theory in isolation from actual listening & playing. There are a variety of methods for transcribing music. IMHO it is significant, regarding feedback, that I do not ignore the problems which might arise in introducing theory & notation with any beginning music student.
*consider the 1st inversion of the a minor chord. In this system it would be written with the first note in upper case, though it's a minor chord ~ a-C-e (a minor) vs the 1st inversion C-e-a
No knowledge of musical theory is wasted. The importance to accompanists who seek to understand the harmonic structure is obvious. But even those who stick to melody can benefit. You gain a deeper appreciation for what is going on, why it is going on, why things sound good and why they don't, what variations of melodies work and what don't.
It's like walking through an art museum, and appreciating what appeals to you, or walking through, and appreciating the craftsmanship that went into what you are seeing.
O.K. Sorry for the critique; but (depending on musical style ~ of which there are many) harmonic structure is either the basis for melody, or melody is complete in itself with infinite harmonic possibilities. These are different approaches, no? The first is served by theory. The latter. . . not so much.
Tonya, just to clarify: it was not my intention to suggest that chords should be written like a-C-e or C-e-G, when I gave examples in the explanatory notes to the diagram. I just wanted to explain how to read the diagram. a-c-e or a-C-e or A-C-E or ace or ACE would all be similarly correct. The circle of thirds or the standard circle of fifths does not concern itself with chord inversions, or note positions on the staff. I thought that was implicitly known. The diagram also does say nothing about standard chord progressions, whatever those may be. And it is probably of little importance to ITM.
I learned about the circle of fifth in school, as part of elementary music theory. I could imagine my circle of thirds could be useful to students of music theory, as a refined version of the circle of fifths, as you can imagine simple major and minor chords directly from it, as well as the notes in a diatonic scale.
"as you can imagine simple major and minor chords directly from it, as well as the notes in a diatonic scale." Which is what I want to do, not all that modulation and other stuff that the circle of fifths diagram seems to be used for.
I really have problems with this from the description ~
"These six chords give us also all the notes of the diatonic scale for the specific key. Or for a major scale go to the upper case letter base note, and take 3 notes to the right and left of it, to get all 7 notes of the scale. For a minor scale (natural minor or aeolian mode) go to the lower case letter base note, and take 2 notes to the left, and 4 notes to the right."
While what you're saying is true it perhaps isn't a straight forward approach to learning the notes of a given scale. IMHO it *might* confuse a beginning student of music.
Yes, thanks, you are right, it could be confusing and needs a bit of a rewrite. It may be less confusing to say that the notes of a major scale are contained in the three major chords on I, IV and V, i.e. on tonic, subdominant and dominant. But it is kind of neat to look at the circle and take the three notes either side of the major (upper case) base note. With the first approach we take two notes to the left and four notes to the right. For instance FAC (F major), CEG (C major) and GBD (G major), or FaCeGbD from the diagram.
I appreciate your input, Tonya. I just got a keyboard, and messing around with it I got the idea of this circle of thirds. Chords are so much easier to visualise on a keyboard, it may be the best instrument to explore chords and harmonic relationships.
I'm glad of this, and have copied it. It helps to drive home (to an indolent and ageing mind) the Circle of Fifths - and Thirds - which I didn't take in when young, and isn't yet second nature. Well done, Hans Bracker.
Tonya, I really don't know how I would use this graphic, except I find anything that illustrates theory an interesting way to expand my knowledge. And just because someone understands theory and harmonics doesn't mean they are approaching The Music like it was jazz, or putting harmony before melody, or expecting the music to always follow specific patterns.
And just because one understands the systems that underlie the music does not mean they are a slave to them. That would be as foolish as consistently presenting yourself as a cycnic on a web board, and coming up with comments that are invariably negative and utterly predictable.
I think it's pretty clever. I know of some people learning chord notes who might really benefit from looking at it this way.
My only critique is that it's best used for triads. Beyond that, it works for major 7th chords, but it sort of breaks down when you get into dominant 7th chords. I wonder if there's a way to jigger it so the dominant 7th chord can be derived in some way (without skipping way back around the circle to get that flat-seventh?)
The Circle of Thirds
The Circle of Thirds
I thought there may be a few here who may be interested in theory about chords and their relationships. I devised an alternative to the widely known circle of fifth, namely a "circle of thirds", which makes it easy to determine notes in major and minor chords and notes in a diatonic scale etc. I put it on my web site here:
http://bracker.co/music/Music/TheCircleOfThirds
There is also a download link for a pdf file, for printing it out.
If you find it useful please spread the word.
~Hans
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Hans Bracker
Re: The Circle of Thirds
So, in essence this *is* the circle of fifths?
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
No, it's two circle of fifths superimposed. I understand why you want to distinguish the traditional circle of fifths using capital letters. However, having them adjacent to lowercase thirds might not be helpful in visualizing the notes of a chord. It runs in conflict with notation systems which use upper & lowercase letters for notes in different octaves.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
It is a different convention, one where major chords are written with an upper case letter for the base note, and minor chords with a lower case letter. It is a common practice in Germany for instance.
For specifying which notes are in a chord I don't think it is so important to adhere to some convention of using upper and lower case letters to distinguish between higher and lower octaves.
So, yes, it may look a little odd, but it is very helpful in seeing the relationships of major and minor chords.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by Hans Bracker
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Well, I suppose it's useful in music with mostly major & minor scales & chords.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
As Hans says, it may be useful to those interested in theory about chords and their relationships. It would be good to hear some feedback from someone who teaches that sort of stuff.
It's usefulness probably does not relate directly to playing Irish traditional tunes, but it would have been a help to me when I was first learning guitar (in a previous life).
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by DaveL35
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Fair play, Dave. The circle of fifths is useful in visualizing music theory based on diatonic major & minor chords. I wasn't being flippant in pointing out the significance of recognizing the octave (register); whether it be visual* or by hearing the chords. I am interested in music theory, though I caution against learning any theory in isolation from actual listening & playing. There are a variety of methods for transcribing music. IMHO it is significant, regarding feedback, that I do not ignore the problems which might arise in introducing theory & notation with any beginning music student.
*consider the 1st inversion of the a minor chord. In this system it would be written with the first note in upper case, though it's a minor chord ~ a-C-e (a minor) vs the 1st inversion C-e-a
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
No knowledge of musical theory is wasted. The importance to accompanists who seek to understand the harmonic structure is obvious. But even those who stick to melody can benefit. You gain a deeper appreciation for what is going on, why it is going on, why things sound good and why they don't, what variations of melodies work and what don't.
It's like walking through an art museum, and appreciating what appeals to you, or walking through, and appreciating the craftsmanship that went into what you are seeing.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: The Circle of Thirds
AlBrown, any comments on how you would use the circle of thirds diagram?
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
O.K. Sorry for the critique; but (depending on musical style ~ of which there are many) harmonic structure is either the basis for melody, or melody is complete in itself with infinite harmonic possibilities. These are different approaches, no? The first is served by theory. The latter. . . not so much.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
In other words melodic variation does not always need to follow standard chord progressions. And I'm not referring to jazz.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
I you use any kind of system, you'll end up sounding no better than a computer. Hear the tune and go from there.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ...
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Tonya, just to clarify: it was not my intention to suggest that chords should be written like a-C-e or C-e-G, when I gave examples in the explanatory notes to the diagram. I just wanted to explain how to read the diagram. a-c-e or a-C-e or A-C-E or ace or ACE would all be similarly correct. The circle of thirds or the standard circle of fifths does not concern itself with chord inversions, or note positions on the staff. I thought that was implicitly known. The diagram also does say nothing about standard chord progressions, whatever those may be. And it is probably of little importance to ITM.
I learned about the circle of fifth in school, as part of elementary music theory. I could imagine my circle of thirds could be useful to students of music theory, as a refined version of the circle of fifths, as you can imagine simple major and minor chords directly from it, as well as the notes in a diatonic scale.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by Hans Bracker
Re: The Circle of Thirds
"as you can imagine simple major and minor chords directly from it, as well as the notes in a diatonic scale." Which is what I want to do, not all that modulation and other stuff that the circle of fifths diagram seems to be used for.
A very useful graphic. Thank you Hans.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by David50
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Thank you, Hans!
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Thanks Hans. FWIW, I learnt theory on a piano keyboard.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Hans, sorry for any confusion about my reference to harmonic structure earlier. I was responding to AlBrown's comment regarding music theory.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
I really have problems with this from the description ~
"These six chords give us also all the notes of the diatonic scale for the specific key. Or for a major scale go to the upper case letter base note, and take 3 notes to the right and left of it, to get all 7 notes of the scale. For a minor scale (natural minor or aeolian mode) go to the lower case letter base note, and take 2 notes to the left, and 4 notes to the right."
While what you're saying is true it perhaps isn't a straight forward approach to learning the notes of a given scale. IMHO it *might* confuse a beginning student of music.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Yes, thanks, you are right, it could be confusing and needs a bit of a rewrite. It may be less confusing to say that the notes of a major scale are contained in the three major chords on I, IV and V, i.e. on tonic, subdominant and dominant. But it is kind of neat to look at the circle and take the three notes either side of the major (upper case) base note. With the first approach we take two notes to the left and four notes to the right. For instance FAC (F major), CEG (C major) and GBD (G major), or FaCeGbD from the diagram.
I appreciate your input, Tonya. I just got a keyboard, and messing around with it I got the idea of this circle of thirds. Chords are so much easier to visualise on a keyboard, it may be the best instrument to explore chords and harmonic relationships.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by Hans Bracker
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Stay hungry, stay curious.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
I'm glad of this, and have copied it. It helps to drive home (to an indolent and ageing mind) the Circle of Fifths - and Thirds - which I didn't take in when young, and isn't yet second nature. Well done, Hans Bracker.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by nicholas
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Just to digress, I'd like to apologise for the rogue apostrophe in my post above.
Carry on.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by DaveL35
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Tonya, I really don't know how I would use this graphic, except I find anything that illustrates theory an interesting way to expand my knowledge. And just because someone understands theory and harmonics doesn't mean they are approaching The Music like it was jazz, or putting harmony before melody, or expecting the music to always follow specific patterns.
And just because one understands the systems that underlie the music does not mean they are a slave to them. That would be as foolish as consistently presenting yourself as a cycnic on a web board, and coming up with comments that are invariably negative and utterly predictable.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Thanks for the response, AlBrown.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: The Circle of Thirds
Excellent, Hans, many thanks.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by Jeeves Tones
Re: The Circle of Thirds
I think it's pretty clever. I know of some people learning chord notes who might really benefit from looking at it this way.
My only critique is that it's best used for triads. Beyond that, it works for major 7th chords, but it sort of breaks down when you get into dominant 7th chords. I wonder if there's a way to jigger it so the dominant 7th chord can be derived in some way (without skipping way back around the circle to get that flat-seventh?)
Anyhoo, thanks for the link, Hans!
JJ
# Posted on December 29th 2011 by JupiterJones