Brian Conway and James Kelly both teach Irish fiddle via Skype. I can understand why they do it, and why people sign up for such lessons.
But that's not an experience I'd want to have, as a teacher or a learner. Too removed from the genuine experience of sitting in the same room together. I prefer lessons "in the round," with all the interactions and complexities that entails. Learning music from someone is much more than acquiring technique and tunes. I look back on lessons and savor them as much for the craic and companionship as anything.
I can also appreciate celticagent's enthusiasm for playing and teaching Irish fiddle. But I'd also encourage him to learn more about the music and its feel and idioms before presuming to teach others. The tracks I listened to were just skimming the surface of how Irish fiddle is played. Bowing, pulse, and articulations--none of it sounded like a player well immersed in the tradition.
D.J.F., I've heard recordings of Michael playing fiddle. He plays circles around the OP.
The OP's playing on Lark in the Morning shows a lack of understanding about how Irish jigs are bowed, phrased, and articulated. It's presumptuous to teach something you don't understand yourself. Striving to play the music is one thing. Claiming you can teach it (and charging $55 an hour) when you can't play a roll or vary the bowing demonstrates a lack of awareness at best.
Well, on the web the OP's website he does'nt claim to teach Irish music but the more ubiquitous "Celtic" and amongst other genres, "Ethno Euro"(listed in the Biography). I've no idea what Ethno Euro is, and I'm not sure I want to know! Also in his tunebook there is listed a reel called "Mountains of Mourne" which begins with an anacrusis bar of 2 beats, then the next bar contains 3 beats,and then bars of 4 beats. I've been reading music, indeed transcribing music, for about 33 years and I've got no idea what type of tune "Mountains Of Mourne" is but it's definitely not a reel, and I'm surprised that someone with your qualifications could publish for public viewing a transcription with what appears to be a basic error. Like Will, I listened to some of your playing and would not be satisfied that someone requiring instruction in Irish music would be well served. I heard no rolls ,in fact no ornamentation of any type. Oh, and your transcription of Dr. Gilbert's has an incorrect key signature. It should have 2 sharps(F & C) as it is played in the Dorian Mode and not the Aeolian. I would play a d instead of a C for the third note of Bar 2. I've also noticed in your transcription of Fleur De Mandragore (reel) that the second time ending in Part 1 contains only 3 beats,and the next bar contains only 3 beats, and also that the B part contains 9 bars. For someone with all of your qualifications this is appallingly careless.
For the first 90s I felt like I was watching the Visit Scotland ads you get here in the UK at this time of year. Then I had to switch it off. As Will said, "skimming the surface of how Irish fiddle is played"
You want to hear "llig" ? 2 tracks on "Ceilidh House Sessions" CD - £12.25 from the "Footstompin" website. Doesn't do him justice, though - pity he didn't record "The Groves".
And as mentioned above, his own musical ability is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
Tony, the tunebook is not transcriptions by the 'owner' of the tunebook. It is a database of tunes downloaded by the member.
The Mountains of Mourne was submitted by Gian Marco, who isn't a novice and there is much comment on the tune in the comments section.
Dr Gilbert's was submitted by Will Harmon, and he comments on the key centre in the comments section.
Fleur De Mandragore was submitted by 'seara' and there are comments on the uneven metre in the comments section.
You might have been involved in music notation for 33 years, but do spend a few minutes more in reading how the tunebook section works and the names of those who actually submit the tunes.
Oh, and BTW, the OP's Irish fiddling might leave a bit to be desired, but, as has been pointed out, the term 'Celtic' is used. The OP's rendition of a Scottish slow air is reasonable (a lot closer than some native Scottish players get to the "Scottish sound", whatever that's worth) and he's a pretty nifty bluegrass mandolin player. However, I fail to see that this is really relevant to the question posed as to how others have experienced teaching online - and making comparisons with the OP's playing and that of Mr Gill is rather petty IMO.
He says on his website that he specializes in "lefties" among other things. I was thinking that there is no shortage of them in How Sadley, Massachusetts (I did my undergrad there!) but in the current political climate, you would have to teach them "un-Americana."
I never said I was an Irish fiddler. I'm a classically trained violinist who has played mostly bluegrass since 1980. I only started learning about traditional Irish fiddle music in 1995. I guess you could say my background is in contradance fiddling, which is really a mixed bag of tunes from western Europe, mostly scots-irish.
I don't tell students that I will teach them traditional Irish playing. They come to me to learn how to play the violin and the mandolin. I teach those instruments using "celtic, bluegrass, klezmer and classical" melodies because I am most familiar with those styles, not because I am an expert in them.
Having said all of that, I have no intention of ever becoming an expert Irish fiddler...those days are past. If anything, I intend to go back to my contradance roots.
Well I taught this Young Lass over Skype...
Then she came to of session in East Antrim last summer to play some of here tune's with me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIxikgl4EsA
jim,,,
Adam, You do say you play with an "Irish" band. And you play "Irish" tunes. And yet you have no intention of ever becoming an Irish fiddler? I find your lack of interest in this music more disappointing than anything really. I wonder how you manage to sustain enthusiasm in your students in any genre with an attitude like that.
"I find your lack of interest in this music more disappointing than anything really."
I'm sure the OP will be bereft at inspiring at inspiring this level of disappointment in you llig.
I find *your* lack of common courtesy to others, good-nature, graciousness, wit, badinage or craic of any kind more disappointing than anything really.
< Well I taught this Young Lass over Skype...
Then she came to of session in East Antrim last summer to play some of here tune's with me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIxikgl4EsA >
Very exciting to see someone discovering the fiddle! Observing her bowing and similarity with yours, I'd say your Skype experiment is proving successful. Related, we had a youth place in our local competition, who developed his skills with Skype lessons from a top banjo player. Its the lad's only access, as there are no musicians in his home area. After the contest, we got him in a few sessions so he could learn some tunes, and get more of the "real" teacher - playing. Seeing him working out all these new tunes and how to engage, negotiate, and share with a group was exciting as well.
Nice tunes in the video, and compliments to the balance amongst the whistles and boxe(s) btw!
"No offence intended, but I've just listed to some of your Irish music playing and I hope you don't teach that."
Hmmm... I wonder how that post would've gone if he *did* intend offence?
Anyhoo, getting back the OP's question, I'd imagine that in-person lessons are generally preferable to Skye-style lessons, but there are certain cases where in-person lessons just aren't a viable option. For example, there might simply not be any teachers of your instrument in your area. Or the particular teacher you want doesn't live anywhere near you. Sometimes it's either Skype or nothin'.
My wife and I actually did our premarital counseling via Skype, since the pastor she wanted for the ceremony lived in another state. I guess it worked okay... we're still married. (And yes, the pastor did at least do the wedding itself in person. )
jhol111964
Thank-you for your heads up on this, Its more or less just helping other's with a bit of Irish style and Trick's to make it sound Irish.... Most of the People I would help Already know the basic's on the fiddle, But are no where near Ireland, and no other Session's or Irish player's around them... I know how hard it is to learn all on you own, being self taught,, But at least I had friends Session's and Fleadh's In Ireland to go to.
jim,,,
Geez, what a tough crowd. The OP plays better than I do...WIll tells us that Michael plays circles around the OP...I should just leave my fiddle home and watch Monday Night Football.
I don't think we're a "tough crowd", Greg, - please stick with the music as long as you enjoy playing it. But the situation changes when you start charging people money for tuition. And based on what I heard from the OP's website recordings, and having heard "llig" play, I would agree with Will's opinion.
TSS ~ ROFLMAO!
Who is an *expert* Irish musician? James Galway? I think Llig was doing a kindness by removing that particular adjective.
Adam, the best advice (imho) is in Will Harmon's first post. < http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/28977/comments#comment616020 > Listening to you playing Irish reels & jigs reminds me of a fiddler friend. She also plays in a style Will H. describes above ~ "skimming the surface of how Irish fiddle is played." It's one thing to minimize the twiddly bits, but when they aren't even there it makes me wish the player would sit down with someone like Will or Llig to listen & learn. Having said that, Llig's playing ability has little to do with the topic. More important is a musician's ability to hear the, "bowing, pulse, and articulations . . . of . . . a player well immersed in the tradition." Listening is more important than setting out to become an expert.
Adam, you're a good musician. Still, whenever someone claims to be playing celtic music, but hasn't given Irish a good listening, I can only ask, 'Why not?'
Llig's first response was about teaching Irish fiddle. Not about the other styles of music Adam is teaching. Will's first response seems to relate to his own experiences as an instructor. It seems more advice gained through experience than desperation or insecurity. If there is posturing it's probably when Will made the claim Llig,"plays circles around the OP." Though even this imho is more forum frustration than anything insidious.
Emily, sinister comes from the latin for left, on the left side. ha ha
Perhaps it's that we have an opportunity to comment on the relative qualifications of online "celtic" fiddle teachers. For the benefit of someone who might be out there Googling, trying to find one.
If you are looking for online "celtic" fiddle lessons, I would go with Brian Conway or James Kelly, in this case.
Of course, that's just my opinion--the rest of the world is welcome to research the issue and reach their own respective conclusions.
Cooperplate, Llig is direct & specific. Apparently you are offended. Personally, I don't see it as offensive nor a witch hunt. I also suspect Adam is not cowed in the least by Llig's responses.
As far as Will's fiddle critique, these too are specific as to how he plays & teaches Irish fiddle. The OP is asking about teaching experience. Will is responding as a teacher.
Tonya, where do Iyou get the notion that I'm offended... you're barking up the wrong tree with your misguided defensiveness. All I did was point out how instantly a thread about online teaching platforms became a trial-by-fire of the OP's credibility as a fiddle instructor.
Weejie, if I were a beginning fiddler interested in receiving online Irish fiddle instruction & noticed a site with Irish jigs & reels being taught I might assume the lessons would have something of what I'm interested in learning.
Does the OP claim to teach Irish fiddle? Or does the OP say any of those tunes on Soundcloud are Irish? If anyone is familar enough with the tunes to know that they are Irish, they would probably be aware that the style is not Irish - and go elsewhere if they want to learn Irish style.
The OP says:
"I teach all styles but specialize in bluegrass, celtic, classical and klezmer."
Draw from that what you may, but this is nothing to do with the OP's opening post, and the ensuing assassination of the OP's capabilities was well below the belt.
Especially, as I pointed out earlier, an attack on a "tunebook" content which was not the work of the OP at all.
My mistake, again! I listened to the Kilfenora Set thinking it was intended as Irish. Obviously it is Celtic.
Didn't really read the tunebook bit carefully (or even in the least ~ there's so much Mustard needs filtering imho), so I cannot comment there.
The OP claims to teach "all styles" - and there is a Romanian piece there too - and a "Araber Tanz", both under "Klezmer" - so any Romanians or Arabs or Jewish folk want to take him to task for his style?
I would imagine that there would be enough integrity on both sides to sort out exactly what was being taught. Moreover, we don't know what method of tuition is being adopted - the OP suggests that he teaches violin and mandolin using melodies from different disciplines. That's fair enough. I know of a teacher of violin many years ago in Kirkwall, Orkney, who backed away from fiddle tunes until he found out how much more interested his young pupils were in those tunes. He used traditional fiddle tunes to teach violin - basically classical violin. Worked a treat. Some of those pupils went on to learn traditional fiddle.
I guess what I meant when I said it was too late for me to learn Irish fiddling was that I'm mostly playing bluegrass and Americana styles these days, and practicing classical violin. I'm spread pretty thin, musically speaking. I also take care of my 2 year old during the day and teach from 4-8pm.
I have 3 students currently taking lessons over Google+ Hangouts. It's great.
I used to offer a few lessons over MSN IM, but now with Google it's not necessary.
Adam, sorry for all the twists & turns on your discussion. I have no doubt you're an excellent classical violinist & and have good experience in playing bluegrass. Once again I would like to emphasize that Will Harmon's 1st post is coming from a fellow fiddle instructor who very often gives sound advice on this forum. Frankly, I don't know why he made the point of saying Michael Gill can play circles around you. Aside from that each of them might be helpful if you wish to learn more about playing & teaching a style of music about which they are obviously passionate.
In fairness, i did read: "I teach all styles but specialize in bluegrass, celtic, classical and klezmer. "
Quite a caseload, your honor.
Trying to teach more than one style well is more than I would attempt - expertise in any well-rounded style from anywhere is, for me anyway, quite a challenge. And, how you choose to teach something will be a reflection of your respect for it.
I play a Scottish tune or two, but would never offer lessons on the subject (although I have told one or two enthusiasts, "This is what I was shown, and this is what I think I heard.") I usually want to send them to someone who is a specialist, with a grasp of and love of the stuff. I am not the one to be starting people off in that area.
Does any of that make sense, sir?
In any case, good luck.
"They don't teach Latin anymore!"
Posted on December 16th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Oh dear, perhaps enrollment is down. You didn't receive the reminder? ~ http://www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/latin/
Fair play, unless of course they have better parties than your department. Which I'm guessing . . . oh well . . . en joy going to the sessions off campus.
Cheers!
Keep in mind you haven't passed the audition until you've been humiliated in a tub of mustard. A deep abysmal tub too.
"I don't say I play in an Irish band. I say some of the music we play is Irish."
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by celticagent
I can't believe you just changed the blurb on your home page from:
"I play fiddle with the Irish band Celticado"
to
"I play fiddle with the Celtic band Celticado"
Llig, are you serious about attacking this man simply because he doesn't meet your standard for Irish fiddling? You have insulted his playing and now call him a "fraud" attacking him personally beyond the context of the OP. You are desperately insecure if you need to carry on with such inane foolishness. If you didn't have experience teaching on line lessons you had no business to even involve yourself in this thread. Please grow up.
I don't mean celticagent any harm, but I'm not a fan of classical violinists teaching fiddle when they haven't done the homework to learn much of anything about the music.
In response to a question further up, the only reason I mentioned Llig's abilities on fiddle is because D.J.F. challenge him on it. Not that it has anything to do with the OP. I was simply responding to D.J.F.'s aside with a further aside.
FWIW, I wouldn't presume to wade into a classical violin forum as a teacher and claim to play Bach with a gram of authenticity. I'm a fiddler (despite a year and a half of formal violin one-on-one at university).
Also, some of us may react more harshly than others because we've seen so many violinists wade into Irish music over the decade and presume to know the music when they don't at all. It wears thin. Not that this is an excuse for Llig's directness or my own unasked for critiques. But it does help explain our hackles standing up.
copperplate, did you go to his personal website and see the pr claims of being half of an Irish band (that's now been changed to "Celtic")?
I have nothing to apologize for. He's charging people $55 an hour to teach from his own shallow skim of traditional music. I don't begrudge the guy making some bucks from teaching, but he should stick to what he knows. I've dealt with far too many students nearly ruined by violinists pretending to know anything about fiddle music. The hubris is appalling.
Recently I posted a criticism of wrongly attributed transcriptions to Adam R Sweet in his profile. I was under the mistaken belief that the "My Tunebook" section of this website contained the user's contribution to transcriptions. It's my understanding that Adam R Sweet had no hand in creating these transcriptions and I unreservedly withdraw my criticisms attributing any connection to him in this matter and offer my sincere apologies for not checking my facts thoroughly before posting.
"I've dealt with far too many students nearly ruined by violinists pretending to know anything about fiddle music."
Come on, Will. Your students are human beings (I hope), not objects. They might have learned some techniques or even some bad habits that can be hard to unlearn, but "nearly ruined" is a bit out of perspective. Besides, some students might want to take up classical violin one day instead. Are you "ruining" them or hampering their chances? Did you not take some lessons in classical violin?
If the OP has changed "Irish" to "Celtic", it's not a surprise considering the way he's been treated on this board. He asked a simple question as to what are other teachers' experiences of online. Instead of that, the response was to go through his website with a fine toothcomb and attempt to pull the guy apart.
You don't know the kind of students who have taken up lessons with the OP, or how they have progressed. You are making assumptions. The OP might have said he played in an "Irish band" but he never claimed to teach "Irish fiddle".
If anything, this accents the ambiguity of the term "Celtic", because, for example, some classical technique can be useful in the playing of North Eastern Scottish fiddle music (Scott Skinner attributed much of his "success" to Rougier's classical tuition), but such technique can indeed hamper the playing of Irish style music. Nevertheless, it is, as you say, an aside. It's nowt to do with the subject of the OP's thread.
BTW, playing in an "Irish band" could be construed in more than one way - for example:
Playing in a band in Ireland.
Playing in a band that originated in Ireland.
Playing in a band that plays Irish music.
One might hope that a band playing Irish music would play it in a traditional Irish style, but that doesn't always follow.
After all, does that "Irish band" The Dubliners not have a classical violinist in its line-up? Ach....the very thought of it!
"go through his website with a fine toothcomb"? As if.
It was right there on the front page, you didn't even have to scroll down ... "I play fiddle with the Irish band Celticado". Now your man was right to change it, it was misleading. But he changed it and then posted, "I don't say I play in an Irish band".
" But he changed it and then posted, "I don't say I play in an Irish band"."
You are wrong there. He said he didn't play in an Irish band well before the wording was changed. Is this your normal way of getting people to avoid "misleading" wording, Mr Gill?
copperplate, but the good news is, you do have the choice to go elsewhere, the main problem with this thread and many other threads is not necessarily the insensitive nature of some of the comments, it's the fact that very few threads talk about the actual subject in question.... some discussions deserve to go off subject and some don't, "online learning is an interesting subject, it would have been nice to get some people who have experience with it, share their views", as there are probably lots of people on this site who may have that as their only option.
There are also lovey dovey discussion boards as well, you know the one's "I think you're great", "why thank you very much and I think you're great as well")
what's worse "the potential of destruction" or the complete and utter lack of construction".
my view is, If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room.
but I would still like to know why something like Google+ hangouts is better than MSN or Skype ? for online learning. Or does online learning really work, for what part of the teaching, what's the best way to do it etc......
How to maximise the efficiency of learning online etc..
think he's fishing for students. Note to self: I post myself playing because I want your opinion. I know I suck but to have Ilig tell me I suck elevates my suckiness to new hieghts.
Once again I feel I should clarify. I don't ever say I am an expert in any of these styles. I use the melodies, rhythms, history, scales/modes to teach my students a method of playing the violin and the mandolin.
I came on here to talk about using the internet, specifically Google+ Hangouts, to teach. That's all.
I understand why everyone has commented on my playing, but that wasn't my question. I just want to be clear on that.
This sort of thread derailment is fine with me by the way, I find it very democratic and enjoy the twists and turns of the conversation.
With soapboxes I suspect it might have something to do with the rarefied air, being up so high that the lack of oxygen dulls the senses... - Speaking from personal experience...
Probably too late to resurrect this, but anyway...
How do you deal with the limitations of some people's internet connections? I can never get Skype to work decently for any length of time, and if I was trying to watch the nuances of someone's bow hand, or their fingering, I'd actually find it it difficult to do with a streamed webcam.
Also, what about the delay when playing a passage together? I read a discussion about a session over Skype once, but it just descended into to people fighting over the technical aspects of sending messages long distances.
I don't want to go into that, what I'm referring to is if you played a passage through with your student, and you ended up with a significant delay (which can happen at peak times) or the connection drops briefly, I'd find that would impact negatively. Obviously it's no direct replacement for an in-person lesson, but I'm curious to how one might overcome such difficulties.
I think It's a good idea to send a video showing what it is your looking for them to try... Then I went on Skype to see how they played it, and helped there, by showing how to adjust thing's to help them get it right.. Here's a video I sent that young lassie from Denmark.. ''See Link'' . Not TV quality video... And her Antrim accent has improved - lol..
But she learnt a tune or two.
jim,,,
nof only was it timely and nice, it was very well composed. next time i screw up and owe an apology, can i come to you for stylistic advice? these things are often done badly, but yours was brief yet complete, to the point, and extremely gracious, a model to us all.
Fair play to Tony for the good manners.
His observations on the tunebook do show, however, that there is a lot of the sheet music on this site which could use some major tidying up.
"This sort of thread derailment is fine with me by the way, I find it very democratic and enjoy the twists and turns of the conversation."
celticagent has thicker skin than I do!
One of the problems with Skype and Google hangouts is the satellite delay. You can play separately, back and forth, taking turns, but never together. It's a bit frustrating.
"The Mountains Of Mourne" (minus any air/song category on site this was filed as 4/4 under 'reels')
Submitted on July 30th 2003 by gian marco. http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1858
"- begins with an anacrusis bar of 2 beats, then the next bar contains 3 beats,and then bars of 4 beats. I've been reading music, indeed transcribing music, for about 33 years and I've got no idea what type of tune "Mountains Of Mourne" is but it's definitely not a reel -"
"- an incorrect key signature. It should have 2 sharps(F & C) as it is played in the Dorian Mode and not the Aeolian. I would play a d instead of a C for the third note of Bar 2."
Before I posted my first comment in this thread, I took the time to check out celticagent's profile, and then followed the links there which led to clips of him playing. One of them is him playing Lark in the Morning, an Irish jig.
Mr. Sweet charges money to teach ($55 an hour, which is more than Brian Conway charges)--in part using Irish tunes--yet Lark in the Morning shows he understands very little about how this typically phrased, pulsed, bowed or articulated. His teaching policies say he's a "serious teacher," and he says "this is an aural tradition" (so he's spotlighting traditional music). Yet he's clearly lacking any serious understanding of how the music is played.
When the disconnect between his claims and his playing were pointed out, he changed "Irish" to "Celtic" in several key spots on his web site and returned here to
I find this all disingenuous at best.
Teachers of any kind have a responsibility to be honest and forthright in all their interactions with learners. The relationship absolutely hinges on trust. I stand by my earlier comment about students being "nearly ruined" by teachers who did not act in good faith. I've seen that result all too often in severe self-esteem and other emotional damage to students. Music lessons tend to go to the heart of who we are (for both teacher and student) no less and often more so than any other form of education and self-improvement. It's not a situation to be trifled with.
Mr. Sweet is free to do what he wants. But he posted his query on a forum devoted to Irish traditional music, and originally presented himself through his profile as someone who plays Irish fiddle. As I did in previous posts, I'm simply suggesting that he either learn more about this music or stick to what he already knows. (Using poorly played Irish tunes to teach classical violin makes about as much sense as using Samuel Barber adagio in Gm to teach Donegal reels.) I for one would expect more for my $55.
*Of course* all of this is relevant to someone asking about teaching online music lessons. That scenario is much more open to potential misfeasance than face-to-face lessons. It's incumbent on the teacher to be up front and honest.
And contrary to what some say here, I'm not lashing out from the anonymity of the net out of some imagined insecurity. Unlike most posters on this thread, my username is my actual name. I would gladly say all of this to Adam's face, though I suspect we'd both rather down pints and play some music together.
I don't know. There is a bit of chutzpah in saying you teach "Celtic" fiddle without having much of a handle on (various) "Celtic" styles and charging more than I've ever paid any music teacher for the privilege.
I have paid up to $55 for lessons from a Grand Prix-level dressage trainer. That's like the horsey equivalent of learning from Paddy Keenan or someone of that calibre. I think that is what people are taking issue with; if he'd just posted saying, "This is me playing," he'd get the critique that he did not sound very Irish, but I don't think he would have been given such a hard time.
A man posted a question relating to his online teaching of fiddle, on a website where a small bio and favorite links can be placed right next to his name.
The man had links there to his classes, and some of his musical affiliations.
What person who wanted to respond WOULDN'T check out what the man is teaching and how?
There was no "witch hunt" here on that score, people, simply the first responder taking a good look before maked an informed response.
Having observed what the man was teaching, the resonder then voiced his God-given opinion, popular or not.
Any problems with that?
I am not defending anyone's POV nor their attitude, but keep to the facts. Any major digression from the subject of the OP was quite predictable, IMHO. Perhaps it was even in context, as the effectiveness of on-line instruction for musical instruments was definately part of the larger picture.
The guy has never offered "Irish Fiddle lessons" (I did look up what he was offering when this nonsense started - and I only recall seeing the word "Irish" used in regard to the band "Celticado". This was still up on the website after Mr Gill took him to task and he said he didn't say he was in an "Irish band" I remember that, because I was expecting Mr Gill to claim his 12 points by linking the quote. He left it too late (it was a good while after that this was changed). If it had been changed before Mr Sweet had said that he hadn't said he was in an Irish band, it would be a bit underhand - but not a hanging offence.
As for $55 an hour for violin lessons from a graduate with playing experience and 25 years teaching experience under his belt, it's not over the top at all going by the figures mentioned here:
For someone with a child to feed, it seems reasonable.
I believe Brian Conway has a full time job in an attorney's office or some such. Maybe he does tuition more for the love of it (though I'm not going to assume that is the case).
"One of them is him playing Lark in the Morning, an Irish jig."
I wonder how Niel Gow played it at the time it was published in his first book of "Strathspey reels" as "Kelso Races" in 1784? The notation is not quite up to scratch for the diddley police, anyway.
"Using poorly played Irish tunes to teach classical violin makes about as much sense as using Samuel Barber adagio in Gm to teach Donegal reels."
It's all a matter of opinion. IMO, a violin teacher who at least recognises that tradional tunes exist is a plus. There is a difference between using a tune that might be easily remembered to teach technique (even if it is not played to diddley police standards) and using something that's not a reel to teach a specific style of playing a reel.
I just wonder how many ruined people have been on the shrink's couch. "Well, Doc, it all started when I was taught the wrong way to play diddley".
In spite of llig's warnings about its inadequacy, people do come to thesession.org for information on Irish traditional music, which they might refer to as "Celtic"--which can be
either a term of convenience, or the mark of watered-down fake Irish/Scottish "Americana." I think it is appropriate for knowledgeable people here to point out that a certain online
teacher is not expert in Irish fiddling techniques, especially when that teacher's advertising is a bit vague on that point. Uninformed beginners deserve to know what they are getting.
Now I don't know Mr. Sweet personally, so I couldn't say
for sure--but he appears to be one of those highly trained classical musicians who assumes that he can easily handle any traditional music genre, thanks to his academic training. Some academic music types apparently think that
traditional music is just a subset, or primitive prototype, of their "fully developed music."
People like llig and Will Harmon post here to say it ain't necessarily so, for the benefit of those less informed. They should be told that fiddlers like James Kelly and Brian Conway are also available, if they have a budding interest in "Celtic" music. It happens that Mr. Sweet was fishing for a student here in 2006, and others gave similar warnings: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11849/comments#comment240666
But I'll be honest. For me, it's just really annoying that a self-proclaimed "Celtic fiddle teacher" apparently hasn't learned any Irish fiddling techniques--no rolls, scratchy trebles, etc. And not because he grew up in Scotland, or Cape Breton, where they don't do rolls so much.
Apparently he just isn't that drawn to Irish music, really....
I stand corrected. What I should have said was "...Lark in the Morning, a jig, commonly notated in 6/8 time, whose origins can be traced at least as far back as Scotland, that is now widely played within the community of Irish traditional musicians, many of whom aren't of Irish descent and/or do not live in or near the island known in the English language as Ireland or the Republic of Ireland...."
Geez, Weej, if nits are all you have to pick, you don't have much of a case, eh?
The actual point I made stands.
I suspect what Adam Sweet misjudged was the fact that a given genre of music isn't just a collection of tunes. It's a community of living people who care about the music. It's quite common for those communities or members thereof (the legalese is for Weejie's sake) to raise doubt when someone from outside the community advertises themselves performing and teaching said music. All the more likely when the person outside looking in demonstrates little or no understanding of the details that make the genre what it is, distinguishable from others.
As for the man's fee, I've yet to meet an Irish or any other traditional fiddler who charge more than $40 an hour for private lessons. Some of them (e.g., Oisin Mac Diarmada) have music degrees as well. And they know intimately what they teach.
P.S. I have two sons to feed (and pay medical bills for and college tuition). When I was teaching full time, I charged $35 for an hour' lesson. Mine was the highest fee in town among non-classical teachers. It was based on 35 years of teaching experience and actual expertise in the genres I taught.
The point I made previously isn't that Adam's fee is exorbitant in itself. I'm saying that it is high enough to warrant getting something substantive in exchange. Perhaps his classical students do receive that substance. Based on what I've heard and what's available from other teachers, I would not guess that anyone looking for Irish or "Celtic" fiddle instruction would not be getting their money's worth from Adam.
Which is only my opinion. I'm not proclaiming it as "fact," and I'm not pretending to be a "savior" of anything. The posters here who tend to blow things out of proportion also like to project that onto others, whether it fits or not. I suppose that's their problem at the end of the day....
Point missed. You don't own the music. Either that tune is Scottish or Irish and it would have been played one way or the other long ago when it first eased itself out of an instrument. One would be playing it outside the "genre" even back then.
I don't recall Mr Sweet claiming it was either Irish or played in an Irish style.
" I've yet to meet an Irish or any other traditional fiddler who charge more than $40 an hour "
Fair enough. But many violin teachers do (and many charge a lot more). Should someone drop their prices because trad teachers don't charge that much?
"the legalese is for Weejie's sake"
If you want to look at things from a "legal" aspect - there is no mens rea from what I can see. You behave as this is all deliberate (at least Mr Gill's attitude suggests that).
I have to wonder if anyone on this thread will have half the grace Tony O'Rourke displayed when he realized his errors.
Several of us have been maligned for challenging Mr. Sweet's game, yet it turns out he has all along presented himself as "specializing" in, among other things, "Celtic" fiddle instruction.
To gibe, either his playing or his advertising needs an adjustment....
"Hmmm...from that earlier thread John Galt linked to:
"I teach all styles, but my specialties are Celtic/Bluegrass/Klezmer." Posted by celticagent"
I've also quoted that passage. The guy's bluegrass mandolin seems reasonable enough. His Scottish fiddling is reasonable. Anyone want to slam him for his Klezmer style?
He also clarifies his position by saying that he teaches violin using traditional tunes. we've been there already. If the guy professed to be a master of Irish fiddling, there might be a case for blowing your top.
"When I was teaching full time, I charged $35 for an hour' lesson. Mine was the highest fee in town among non-classical teachers. It was based on 35 years of teaching experience and actual expertise in the genres I taught."
That's your business. Weren't some dudes pushing you to raise your fees to $40-45?
Weej, you can argue that Mr. Sweet claims to play "Celtic" and not "Irish" fiddle, but either way, his declarations of a specialty certainly are deliberate.
Weej missing the point: "Fair enough. But many violin teachers do (and many charge a lot more). Should someone drop their prices because trad teachers don't charge that much?"
Of course not. But anyone looking for good instruction on trad fiddle can find it, and at a lower price, elsewhere.
On the contrary. I've not the slightest bit interested in visiting the swamp.
I read this, however:
" never said I was an Irish fiddler. I'm a classically trained violinist who has played mostly bluegrass since 1980. I only started learning about traditional Irish fiddle music in 1995. I guess you could say my background is in contradance fiddling, which is really a mixed bag of tunes from western Europe, mostly scots-irish.
I don't tell students that I will teach them traditional Irish playing. They come to me to learn how to play the violin and the mandolin. I teach those instruments using "celtic, bluegrass, klezmer and classical" melodies because I am most familiar with those styles, not because I am an expert in them."
That's fair enough. It shouldn't warrant your little crusade of trying to save the people from ruination.
"But anyone looking for good instruction on trad fiddle can find it, and at a lower price, elsewhere"
Does Mr Sweet have any students who came looking specifically for trad fiddle instruction? Is it not possible that he would explain his position before taking on the student?
I read the OP as someone fishing for students. But I thought that changing Irish to Celtic was a very reasonable thing to do. Like it or not Irish tunes being played in a non-irish-traditional way happens. They are good tunes. I would have thought that using 'Celtic' as a way of describing that would upset the purists less than calling it 'Irish' .
Oh I'm as chill as they come. You've mistaken me for someone else.
Adam posted his clarification only after he edited his web site, in response to concerns raised here.
It's simply a good example of the sort of things potential students should consider when looking for a teacher. Someone who says they "specialize" in a genre apparently may simply mean they're "familiar" with them and not "an expert in them." It's a not uncommon ploy.
David, if "Celtic" had any actual meaning in reference to musical genres, it might be reasonable. A more accurate advert for Adam's business might read: "I teach violin and mandolin using Scottish, Irish, bluegrass, klezmer, and classical melodies."
Frankly, if I were a prospective student, I'd be more interested in his methods for teaching technique. You can learn sound technique on fiddle and mandolin playing almost any style of music, which I'm guessing is more in line with Adam's actual practice.
If you want to learn a specific genre, however, you're best off going to a teacher who genuinely specializes in that genre.
BTW Weej, in many jurisdictions, mens rea doesn't apply to civil cases, which would include breach of contract (arguably for, say, collecting fees for instruction as a specialist yet being unable to deliver the requisite skills because the instructor him/herself does not posses the requisite skills or understanding of the specialty).
At any rate, we don't know what Adam was thinking when he advertised himself as specializing in these genres. My hunch is he meant well, but he was also hoping to generate income. As you yourself, Weej, so often like to point out, he could've been more selective with his wording.
"BTW Weej, in many jurisdictions, mens rea doesn't apply to civil cases,"
Then why make a crime out of something that's not even a civil tort?
"Adam posted his clarification only after he edited his web site, in response to concerns raised here."
No, he didn't. I'm quite sure of that.
"Why spend an hour with a violinist who dabbles in many traditional styles, when you could spend that hour with, say, James Kelly?"
Anyone is free to do just that.
"David, if "Celtic" had any actual meaning in reference to musical genres, it might be reasonable. A more accurate advert for Adam's business might read: "I teach violin and mandolin using Scottish, Irish, bluegrass, klezmer, and classical melodies." "
Well there you go. You can top up your meagre 35 bucks per hour by saving Mr Sweet from litigation concerning his misrepresentation of his services - re-write his contract terms for him.
"he could've been more selective with his wording."
As could those who came down on him like a ton of bricks - a wee PM might have been enough.
No one here made a criminal case out of anything. Really? Heh heh. Nearly every time you call someone on hyperbole, you turn around and do it yourself. "Ton of bricks" indeed. A shame to let a few hundred words weigh so heavily on you, my friend.
Though I see you agree that he misrepresented his services.
The thread wouldn't be near so long if you and a few others weren't so intent on defending that (intentional or otherwise) misrepresentation.
LOL, perhaps you could explain why you participate in a discussion forum when it bothers you that people discuss things in that discussion forum rather than networking behind the scenes through wee PMs.
"LOL, perhaps you could explain why you participate in a discussion forum when it bothers you that people discuss things in that discussion forum rather than networking behind the scenes through wee PMs."
There's discussion and there's slagging off. There's also a quiet word in the ear. I've been both on the giving and receiving ends of that method more than once.
---------------------
"Why spend an hour with a violinist who dabbles in many traditional styles, when you could spend that hour with, say, James Kelly?"
Anyone is free to do just that.
----------------------
Yes, they are.
And we are free to point out that a person who wants to learn about Irish traditional music is better off going to a teacher who genuinely does specialize in it.
If we really want to get psuedo-legalistic about it, let's examine the 2006 case. Someone named ascie, apparently from Poland, started a discussion with:
"i am looking a good (FIDDLE's) teacher. I want to learn irish music!!!!!;) can u help me?"
ascie later adds, "ehhh i am beginner.. I mean, I have played the violin from 10 years but i always played classic music. I love Irish and I want to play this kind of music;) i know... there are many books about fiddles' play but i need " a human" who can teach me;)"
And: "I love music and irish danc/ ing . and I know that I have to listen this music if I want to learn ofcourse but it is a problem because there are many ornaments which i can not play;/;/;/ because i do not know how i should play this ornaments;/;/"
This is obviously a person who should get instruction from an expert fiddler-- he/she already plays the violin, wants to learn Irish fiddle in particular. Yet Mr. Sweet offered his services, "fee negotiable."
Will Harmon, ethical blend, kennedy, and apparently benhall.1 (comment deleted?) all advised against a hasty decision.
Weej, you're welcome to your perspective. Just bear in mind that it is after all only *your* perspective. The rest of us are quite capable of thinking for ourselves, happily.
Relax, it's just a bad review. Honest opinions aired.
It's also a public service. If a person represents himself as a teacher of Irish traditional fiddle and offers to take other peoples' money--when in fact that person has not mastered the fundamentals of it himself....
That's not an attack, it's defending the innocent.
True: Mr. Sweet is not an accomplished, much less expert, Irish-style fiddler. His playing of Irish traditional tunes, as shown in his online samples, does not demonstrate the typical characteristics of highly respected traditional Irish fiddlers.
True: Mr. Sweet has offered in the past to give Irish fiddle lessons in exchange for a fee, when he is not adequately versed in those techniques himself. (The current situation is a fluid one.)
True: Several members of thesession.org pointed out these facts, for the benefit of the readership.
All joking aside, I sincerely think there is something in the idiom(s) of traditional Irish music which is not always given it's due. I trust some, perhaps even a few on board, who say it is not to be learnt through various methods of formal music training (whatever that is). Rather it is brought to life, all too rarely, when one perks up one's ears ~ recognizing something in the tune(s) & feels an urge to play, to dance, to roll about in the rye grass?
Beg pardon for the play on words. ;)
Aye, but they'll have to buy them all first. I'll be asking for my commission in January. I might even earn as much as $55 - enough for a real fiddle lesson.
And here's the first comment: "Sounds great but it looks so odd because the bowing technique looks so celtic / irish and it sounds basicly like bluegrass! "
I don't know anything about bluegrass, so I'm no judge... is Ian overreaching, from the other direction, or does he know bluegrass fiddle pretty well? Well enough to teach it?
I've recommended Ian's clips to my students for some time now. I steer them toward lots of players so they can hear other styles and approaches to the music. Ian's particularly strong as a bluegrass fiddler, but I like his Irish playing too. He does a nice job on The Blackbird on one of his clips.
copperplate's defense shields are blinding him--he sees only what he expects to see, not what some of us actually post.
And if using rolls, trebles, and bowing beyond single bow strokes constitutes "elevated standards," then clearly one of us is on the wrong forum....
Sorry about assuming you're associating with a different lot. Glasgow it is. The spelling is fine as well, although I don't mind using the g, now that it's been properly sorted.
As they say in Venice, "Ciao." For myself it's time for a change of scenery. Keep the banter lively, & at the tip top of your diddley-googley.
To be fair, Celtic Agent is not a complete newbie although most of his threads so far appear to about trying to promote or push something or other.
It's fairly obvious to me (and I'm not the least gullible of people) that the OP was hoping that there might be some interest from potential students as a result of his post. Nothing wrong with that although he could have been more "up front" about it.
He doesn't have to be an "Irish player" to be useful teacher of traditional music either as long as he doesn't claim to be so if he's not. I'm sure many of have learned much from tutors and other musicians in all genres even if it's only adding new tunes to our repertoire.
Mr Gill, if you are of the cynical type, then the shrewd response would be to respond to the OP at face value. Even negatively responding on the lines of "online teaching might be OK for some but I don't like it". Responding the way you have done has drawn attention to your cynicism and at the same time achieving what you imply the OP is trying to achieve. Will responded in what might have been the shrewd way in his first post.
I'm surprised nobody remembers this CelticAgent guy from years ago. He stirred up a big ugly argument about written music and how it's so important. And then he started the same kind of discussion on an American old-time fiddle board and just about got kicked off of it because he was very sanctimonious about how no musician is any good unless they read music. Those old-time fiddlers are even more allergic to dots than some of us are here!
So I'm not surprised that he's trolling for students here. I never forgot him because I remember the way he plays. No one remembers?
You'll have to take that up with himself, AlBrown. Personally, I don't know how eager he is to assume the worst, I'm sure he's jumped to conclusions (but doesn't hold the patent), & I'm really not opposed to some form of critique in these discussions. In the present case it is my humble opinion Llig did not step out of line in posting his comments about Adam's playing of Irish (&/or celtic) fiddle playing. Though it differs significantly from my concerns.
In short, I find civility where others may not. Yet, this does not mean I am ignoring incivilities as these have come to my attention. I have made attempts to be judicious during the discussion. But, I have little will to repeat what I have said previously ~ as this is available if anyone wishes to search the thread.
Cheers, Kennedy. It took me awhile to type out my response for AlBrown. I hope it helps.
Kennedy, unfortunately it appears a day or two has been deleted from discussion in 2006. You know the routine.
Sorry, about that. The discussion I was referring to is the one linked on this thread about someone seeking a fiddle instructor. Kennedy is probably referring to another discussion.
It was another discussion, but right about that time. I remember I didn't feel qualified to have much of a voice in the conversation because I had just started playing and I thought to myself, "well, he plays a whole lot better than I do, so I'll just keep quiet." But it was about written music. He felt it was essential to becoming a good musician and was pretty snobby about it.
Thanks Kennedy. Without jumping too much on the bones of a dead horse I'd like to add my impression. At this time, in my playing, I think my ear is good enough to distinguish a player who makes a valiant effort to play every note on the page from someone who plays music in a (so-called) Irish idiom. Beg pardon for being so cryptic.
This response is not intended to deter anyone from learning celtic, klezmer, & bluegrass fiddle playing from Adam R. Sweet, if you so desire. It is his advert afterall.
I think it's pretty easy to tell who sounds authentic and who doesn't, even if you can't play a note yourself. There's been a lot of unhappiness about teachers who take money without offering the goods, but we need to put some of the responsibility on the prospective student, as well. If you're really after a particular style, you'd best know the style well enough to recognize it when you hear it, or at least know when you're not hearing it. We get into playing music because we love it, which implies a bit of taste and discrimination. People need to learn to tell the difference between average playing & really good playing.
"We get into playing music because we love it, which implies a bit of taste and discrimination. People need to learn to tell the difference between average playing & really good playing."
And also the difference between average, generic teaching and really good, focused teaching.
There will always be "average" playing. Whether the "average" is acceptable or not is dependent on how high the bar has been set by the really good players and how low the poorer ones have sunk. Also, it depends on how many of each there are and so on.
So, as standards improve, "average" might not be that bad a thing.
Will, I get all your points and those made by many others here.
Leaving this particular gentleman aside, are you suggesting that it's always wrong to have a more general tuition in traditional music or are there occasions when it might be acceptable? It surely depends on the student(s) stage of development and/or what (s)he is seeking at the time?
If someone wants to focus on Irish music and become a really good player understanding all its nuances and intricacies, then obviously they should seek out a good experienced exponent in this field which the OP obviously isn't.
However, some may just wish to learn the basics of the fiddle or gain an insight into traditional music in general. At the Scots Music Group in Edinburgh and in similar organisations elsewhere, the tutors are very varied in terms of experience and background but, hopefully, they all do a fair enough job. Some are very focused while others take a more general approach; e.g. I went to a highly regarded Scottish fiddler one year who gave us excellent advice in improving our style especially with regard to strathspeys.
In other "mixed instrument" classes, the tutors will teach a variety of music often from different genres. However, while they are usually good musicians in their own fields, they can hardly be described as experts in everything they teach. That's not the point of the exercise though.
So, I don't think that it's the "content of the syllabus" or even the level of tuition(Though you obviously wouldn't wish to visit or recommend a "duff teacher") which is the issue but whether or not what is being offered is the genuine thing.
After reading all these posts over the last few days, that's my conclusion.
John J., I think you've got it. Over the years, the students I've seen generally fall into one of two camps. First are those who want to learn to play an *instrument* and they're not sure what genre of music they want to play. Second are those who come looking to learn a specific genre of music.
Any reasonably adept teacher can help those in the first camp. But those in the second camp are usually better off with a teacher who genuinely specializes in the type of music they want to learn.
I've invariably found that your fist camp, those who just want to learn to play an instrument (it's always the bloody guitar), are not really into music at all, and progress slowly, if at all. Though some do develop into actually growing a liking for music, so I wouldn't like to write them all off.
llig, I think there are people who say "I want to learn how to play an instrument" but really mean "I want to wake up one day with a full understanding and mastery of an instrument without putting any effort into getting to that point"
You will also get those who aren't entirely focused on Irish music and may not wish to be. However, they may have several Irish tunes in their repertoire and want to learn more.
In an ideal world, musicians wishing to learn the music of any genre should focus on this and make every effort to "master" that particular style but we know that this doesn't always happen... not even with really good players.
So, you'll get Irish players who will also play a few Scottish or Shetland tunes. Scottish players may play some Irish tunes, Scandinavian, Cape Breton, Klezmer even.
There are a few notable exceptions who will fully immerse themselves in whatever they decide to do. However, in my experience, the majority of musicians appear to major in one particular style or genre of music while the other parts of their repertoire is more of a "side show".
I prefer to think of it as... well... trying to figure out what it is about The Music that makes it work so well, and sound so good. And because it feels so good when I finally almost get some twiddly bit just right.
Mastery will never happen, for me. I'm too old and clumsy, not to mention lazy. But improvement almost always can happen, and I like improving.
I suppose it just seems like something still left to be tamed. "I just conquered K2, slew a charging Bengal tiger with my bare hands, & mastered Irish rhythm."
"bloody guitar), are not really into music at all, and progress slowly, if at all. Though some do develop into actually growing a liking for music, so I wouldn't like to write them all off."
I learned a long time ago, the hard way (for both myself and one particular student) to not give up on a student just because of my own silly biases. You just never know when a "clueless hack" is going to show up next week making wonderful music. The proverbial caterpillar-to-butterfly transformation. I've seen it many, many times over the years.
Of course, a good, enthusiastic teacher, mentor, or coach may be one of the factors that moves an aimless or frustrated wannabe to find a focus and an understanding they were missing before. But my hunch is that 99.9% of it comes from within the person him/herself, the mentor just helps articulate the desire and steps out of the way when the wings start to rustle against the cocoon.
I tried a trad teacher for a short while, but luckily I ran out of money and discovered that the best teaching I've received has come via sitting in with some of the best fiddlers in my city - watching, listening, imitating, week after week over the past couple of years, and I'm not done yet.
If I remember correctly what neotenic means, and it refers to adult creatures exhibiting juvenile characteristics, I think the word sums up much of the discussion on this thread...
I got that llig, but its too cryptic for me to work out if you meant that humans were usually retaining juvenile characteristics that were good or bad for the purpose of making music.
What *percentage* does the teacher contribute to learning & how much from the student? Ideally, I suppose, it's a 50-50 relationship. Potentially each one has something to learn.
"I tried a trad teacher for a short while, but luckily I ran out of money and discovered that the best teaching I've received has come via sitting in with some of the best fiddlers in my city - watching, listening, imitating, week after week over the past couple of years"
Having watched this go on, I have to say it's working nicely.
Llig, sometimes it is hard to know if it the cynic or the optimist making posts. Yes, if its two lengths of string then the total length is, in the context, more important that the ratio and percentages are, in any case, a bad way of expressing the latter.
From The Miram-Webber online Ductionary;
Done:
1. Kaput, dead & gone, to breath no more, to cease all functions.
2. Out to pasture.
3. To exist only in cyber-space archives.
4. Temporary condition of suspension. i.e. done for now, but not dead yet. see Dungeon.
It's no wonder wit is becoming less appreciated. Goggle becomes the fallback position. We're not any smarter for that, but everything is at our fingertips.
Gordon Sumner = Sting
Cheers, JK. You're far to witty for my 3 year old OS. Forget actually using my human brain.
Sure, not every acorn becomes an oak tree, but I don't want to presume to be the judge of who'll become a musician and who won't. (That said, I don't string people along just to take their money, either. If someone shows no progress, we start exploring what's holding them up. In worst cases, I suggest they save their money, take a break from lessons, and just play what they already have to work on until they feel ready to start up again.)
As for what percent comes from the teacher or the student? Having taught music since 1974, I suspect I never taught anyone anything. People learn and acquire music, and a good mentor can ease the way, but very little of it can actually be taught. We learn music by doing, and no one else can do it for you.
"The music is a human latticework of creation and respect for not only those who's shoulders people aspire to humbly and precariously perch upon, but also those whose shoulders are the aspirations of those who wish to precariously perch."
"I never assume I can do anything with this music on my own."
Yes, the music means nothing unless you put 100% of yourself in it. But it ain't the music unless that 100% is still a small proportion of the total. If you ever lose the respect for the giants on whose shoulders you are standing, it merely becomes self indulgent trite.
Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I have been using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons online since July of 2011. I am very happy with the format. The quality is excellent.
I teach mainly Fiddle, but also teach a number of mandolin students this way.
Does anybody else have experience teaching online either through Skype or MSN or Google? I'd like to hear about your experiences!
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by celticagent
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
No offence intended, but I've just listed to some of your Irish music playing and I hope you don't teach that.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Sorry, "I've just listened"
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
otoh, I too listened to some of the OP's Irish tunes. Not impressed. Sounds more like a violinist's impression of Irish fiddling, to me.
--but still....
Maybe I'm not one to talk--some (not to name names) have implied that my rolls aren't quite right
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Brian Conway and James Kelly both teach Irish fiddle via Skype. I can understand why they do it, and why people sign up for such lessons.
But that's not an experience I'd want to have, as a teacher or a learner. Too removed from the genuine experience of sitting in the same room together. I prefer lessons "in the round," with all the interactions and complexities that entails. Learning music from someone is much more than acquiring technique and tunes. I look back on lessons and savor them as much for the craic and companionship as anything.
I can also appreciate celticagent's enthusiasm for playing and teaching Irish fiddle. But I'd also encourage him to learn more about the music and its feel and idioms before presuming to teach others. The tracks I listened to were just skimming the surface of how Irish fiddle is played. Bowing, pulse, and articulations--none of it sounded like a player well immersed in the tradition.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
the OP may not be the greatest player in the world but i really am desperate to see what llig can produce to warrant such rudeness towards the OP
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
D.J.F., I've heard recordings of Michael playing fiddle. He plays circles around the OP.
The OP's playing on Lark in the Morning shows a lack of understanding about how Irish jigs are bowed, phrased, and articulated. It's presumptuous to teach something you don't understand yourself. Striving to play the music is one thing. Claiming you can teach it (and charging $55 an hour) when you can't play a roll or vary the bowing demonstrates a lack of awareness at best.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
P.S. Dan, I enjoyed your clip of the Holly Bush and Beare Island Reel.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Have also heard recordings of Llig playing. To be honest, some of the most inspiring playing ever.
But I must insist that how well Llig plays is near irrelevant to his pertinence in criticising someone's playing.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Well, on the web the OP's website he does'nt claim to teach Irish music but the more ubiquitous "Celtic" and amongst other genres, "Ethno Euro"(listed in the Biography). I've no idea what Ethno Euro is, and I'm not sure I want to know! Also in his tunebook there is listed a reel called "Mountains of Mourne" which begins with an anacrusis bar of 2 beats, then the next bar contains 3 beats,and then bars of 4 beats. I've been reading music, indeed transcribing music, for about 33 years and I've got no idea what type of tune "Mountains Of Mourne" is but it's definitely not a reel, and I'm surprised that someone with your qualifications could publish for public viewing a transcription with what appears to be a basic error. Like Will, I listened to some of your playing and would not be satisfied that someone requiring instruction in Irish music would be well served. I heard no rolls ,in fact no ornamentation of any type. Oh, and your transcription of Dr. Gilbert's has an incorrect key signature. It should have 2 sharps(F & C) as it is played in the Dorian Mode and not the Aeolian. I would play a d instead of a C for the third note of Bar 2. I've also noticed in your transcription of Fleur De Mandragore (reel) that the second time ending in Part 1 contains only 3 beats,and the next bar contains only 3 beats, and also that the B part contains 9 bars. For someone with all of your qualifications this is appallingly careless.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
So I thought I'd have a listen to "Cooley's Reel", http://soundcloud.com/adamrsweet/cooleys-reel
For the first 90s I felt like I was watching the Visit Scotland ads you get here in the UK at this time of year. Then I had to switch it off. As Will said, "skimming the surface of how Irish fiddle is played"
I do want to hear more of Llig though!
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
You want to hear "llig" ? 2 tracks on "Ceilidh House Sessions" CD - £12.25 from the "Footstompin" website. Doesn't do him justice, though - pity he didn't record "The Groves".
And as mentioned above, his own musical ability is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Tony, the tunebook is not transcriptions by the 'owner' of the tunebook. It is a database of tunes downloaded by the member.
The Mountains of Mourne was submitted by Gian Marco, who isn't a novice and there is much comment on the tune in the comments section.
Dr Gilbert's was submitted by Will Harmon, and he comments on the key centre in the comments section.
Fleur De Mandragore was submitted by 'seara' and there are comments on the uneven metre in the comments section.
You might have been involved in music notation for 33 years, but do spend a few minutes more in reading how the tunebook section works and the names of those who actually submit the tunes.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Oh, and BTW, the OP's Irish fiddling might leave a bit to be desired, but, as has been pointed out, the term 'Celtic' is used. The OP's rendition of a Scottish slow air is reasonable (a lot closer than some native Scottish players get to the "Scottish sound", whatever that's worth) and he's a pretty nifty bluegrass mandolin player. However, I fail to see that this is really relevant to the question posed as to how others have experienced teaching online - and making comparisons with the OP's playing and that of Mr Gill is rather petty IMO.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Weejie
You're right, his Scottish air isn't bad at all.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
And before anyone misreads that, I mean it in a good way.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Nobody has mentioned a bodhran yet, I'm off to another thread if this attitude continues....
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
He says on his website that he specializes in "lefties" among other things. I was thinking that there is no shortage of them in How Sadley, Massachusetts (I did my undergrad there!) but in the current political climate, you would have to teach them "un-Americana."
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I never said I was an Irish fiddler. I'm a classically trained violinist who has played mostly bluegrass since 1980. I only started learning about traditional Irish fiddle music in 1995. I guess you could say my background is in contradance fiddling, which is really a mixed bag of tunes from western Europe, mostly scots-irish.
I don't tell students that I will teach them traditional Irish playing. They come to me to learn how to play the violin and the mandolin. I teach those instruments using "celtic, bluegrass, klezmer and classical" melodies because I am most familiar with those styles, not because I am an expert in them.
Having said all of that, I have no intention of ever becoming an expert Irish fiddler...those days are past. If anything, I intend to go back to my contradance roots.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by celticagent
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
i couldn't imagine getting lessons on the internet. would not be into it. then again i'm lucky that i live 15 minutes from a branch of CCE
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by palethinboy
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Well I taught this Young Lass over Skype...
Then she came to of session in East Antrim last summer to play some of here tune's with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIxikgl4EsA
jim,,,
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Oops Spelling Mistake's - Slept In -- lol.
jim,,,
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Adam, You do say you play with an "Irish" band. And you play "Irish" tunes. And yet you have no intention of ever becoming an Irish fiddler? I find your lack of interest in this music more disappointing than anything really. I wonder how you manage to sustain enthusiasm in your students in any genre with an attitude like that.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
" And yet you have no intention of ever becoming an Irish fiddler?"
"I have no intention of ever becoming an expert Irish fiddler..."
Slight difference.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"I find your lack of interest in this music more disappointing than anything really."
I'm sure the OP will be bereft at inspiring at inspiring this level of disappointment in you llig.
I find *your* lack of common courtesy to others, good-nature, graciousness, wit, badinage or craic of any kind more disappointing than anything really.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Jams_O'Donnell
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I don't say I play in an Irish band. I say some of the music we play is Irish.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by celticagent
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I think my above comment was extremely witty and it has yet to receive any appreciation!
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"I think my above comment was extremely witty and it has yet to receive any appreciation!"
There was something sinister about it.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
TSS, I'm familiar with western MA and I greatly appreciated the wit! Although I now fear repercussions for having said so.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by NewToItAll
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
< Well I taught this Young Lass over Skype...
Then she came to of session in East Antrim last summer to play some of here tune's with me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIxikgl4EsA >
Very exciting to see someone discovering the fiddle! Observing her bowing and similarity with yours, I'd say your Skype experiment is proving successful. Related, we had a youth place in our local competition, who developed his skills with Skype lessons from a top banjo player. Its the lad's only access, as there are no musicians in his home area. After the contest, we got him in a few sessions so he could learn some tunes, and get more of the "real" teacher - playing. Seeing him working out all these new tunes and how to engage, negotiate, and share with a group was exciting as well.
Nice tunes in the video, and compliments to the balance amongst the whistles and boxe(s) btw!
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by jhol111964
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"No offence intended, but I've just listed to some of your Irish music playing and I hope you don't teach that."
)
Hmmm... I wonder how that post would've gone if he *did* intend offence?
Anyhoo, getting back the OP's question, I'd imagine that in-person lessons are generally preferable to Skye-style lessons, but there are certain cases where in-person lessons just aren't a viable option. For example, there might simply not be any teachers of your instrument in your area. Or the particular teacher you want doesn't live anywhere near you. Sometimes it's either Skype or nothin'.
My wife and I actually did our premarital counseling via Skype, since the pastor she wanted for the ceremony lived in another state. I guess it worked okay... we're still married. (And yes, the pastor did at least do the wedding itself in person.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by JupiterJones
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
jhol111964
Thank-you for your heads up on this, Its more or less just helping other's with a bit of Irish style and Trick's to make it sound Irish.... Most of the People I would help Already know the basic's on the fiddle, But are no where near Ireland, and no other Session's or Irish player's around them... I know how hard it is to learn all on you own, being self taught,, But at least I had friends Session's and Fleadh's In Ireland to go to.
jim,,,
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Geez, what a tough crowd. The OP plays better than I do...WIll tells us that Michael plays circles around the OP...I should just leave my fiddle home and watch Monday Night Football.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I don't think we're a "tough crowd", Greg, - please stick with the music as long as you enjoy playing it. But the situation changes when you start charging people money for tuition. And based on what I heard from the OP's website recordings, and having heard "llig" play, I would agree with Will's opinion.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Weejie, I don't see what's sinister about it. I was slagging the stupidity of American political discourse and the Pioneer Valley.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I think "Weejie" was making a wee joke, Emily. I'll let him explain - you need to be slightly familiar with Latin, if that gives you a clue.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
TSS ~ ROFLMAO!
I think Llig was doing a kindness by removing that particular adjective.
Who is an *expert* Irish musician? James Galway?
Adam, the best advice (imho) is in Will Harmon's first post. < http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/28977/comments#comment616020 > Listening to you playing Irish reels & jigs reminds me of a fiddler friend. She also plays in a style Will H. describes above ~ "skimming the surface of how Irish fiddle is played." It's one thing to minimize the twiddly bits, but when they aren't even there it makes me wish the player would sit down with someone like Will or Llig to listen & learn. Having said that, Llig's playing ability has little to do with the topic. More important is a musician's ability to hear the, "bowing, pulse, and articulations . . . of . . . a player well immersed in the tradition." Listening is more important than setting out to become an expert.
Adam, you're a good musician. Still, whenever someone claims to be playing celtic music, but hasn't given Irish a good listening, I can only ask, 'Why not?'
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Yes, Kenny and Weejie, I agree. It is better to be considered dexterous than sinister, in our culture.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Still don't get the joke.
Don't have any Latin.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
(Weegie and Kenny, I hope you won't think me gauche for giving TSS another hint.)
TSS - its a play on the words left and sinister.
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by John Culhane
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Llig's first response was about teaching Irish fiddle. Not about the other styles of music Adam is teaching. Will's first response seems to relate to his own experiences as an instructor. It seems more advice gained through experience than desperation or insecurity. If there is posturing it's probably when Will made the claim Llig,"plays circles around the OP." Though even this imho is more forum frustration than anything insidious.
Emily, sinister comes from the latin for left, on the left side. ha ha
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Perhaps it's that we have an opportunity to comment on the relative qualifications of online "celtic" fiddle teachers. For the benefit of someone who might be out there Googling, trying to find one.
If you are looking for online "celtic" fiddle lessons, I would go with Brian Conway or James Kelly, in this case.
Of course, that's just my opinion--the rest of the world is welcome to research the issue and reach their own respective conclusions.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
" sinister comes from the latin for left, on the left side. ha ha"
A bit more involved than that:
http://www.left-at-the-start.com/
"Llig's first response was about teaching Irish fiddle."
Which the OP doesn't claim to do.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Cooperplate, Llig is direct & specific. Apparently you are offended. Personally, I don't see it as offensive nor a witch hunt. I also suspect Adam is not cowed in the least by Llig's responses.
As far as Will's fiddle critique, these too are specific as to how he plays & teaches Irish fiddle. The OP is asking about teaching experience. Will is responding as a teacher.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Tonya, where do Iyou get the notion that I'm offended... you're barking up the wrong tree with your misguided defensiveness. All I did was point out how instantly a thread about online teaching platforms became a trial-by-fire of the OP's credibility as a fiddle instructor.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by copperplate
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Weejie, if I were a beginning fiddler interested in receiving online Irish fiddle instruction & noticed a site with Irish jigs & reels being taught I might assume the lessons would have something of what I'm interested in learning.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Copperplate, I'm glad you're not offended by Llig's response. My inference was misguided, & I do apologize.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Does the OP claim to teach Irish fiddle? Or does the OP say any of those tunes on Soundcloud are Irish? If anyone is familar enough with the tunes to know that they are Irish, they would probably be aware that the style is not Irish - and go elsewhere if they want to learn Irish style.
The OP says:
"I teach all styles but specialize in bluegrass, celtic, classical and klezmer."
Draw from that what you may, but this is nothing to do with the OP's opening post, and the ensuing assassination of the OP's capabilities was well below the belt.
Especially, as I pointed out earlier, an attack on a "tunebook" content which was not the work of the OP at all.
It's all pretty disgusting IMO.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
My mistake, again! I listened to the Kilfenora Set thinking it was intended as Irish. Obviously it is Celtic.
Didn't really read the tunebook bit carefully (or even in the least ~ there's so much Mustard needs filtering imho), so I cannot comment there.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
The OP claims to teach "all styles" - and there is a Romanian piece there too - and a "Araber Tanz", both under "Klezmer" - so any Romanians or Arabs or Jewish folk want to take him to task for his style?
I would imagine that there would be enough integrity on both sides to sort out exactly what was being taught. Moreover, we don't know what method of tuition is being adopted - the OP suggests that he teaches violin and mandolin using melodies from different disciplines. That's fair enough. I know of a teacher of violin many years ago in Kirkwall, Orkney, who backed away from fiddle tunes until he found out how much more interested his young pupils were in those tunes. He used traditional fiddle tunes to teach violin - basically classical violin. Worked a treat. Some of those pupils went on to learn traditional fiddle.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
This site is mostly about Irish dance tunes played in sessions. It shouldn't come as surprise if that is how members direct there comments.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
. . . direct their comments . . .
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I guess what I meant when I said it was too late for me to learn Irish fiddling was that I'm mostly playing bluegrass and Americana styles these days, and practicing classical violin. I'm spread pretty thin, musically speaking. I also take care of my 2 year old during the day and teach from 4-8pm.
I have 3 students currently taking lessons over Google+ Hangouts. It's great.
I used to offer a few lessons over MSN IM, but now with Google it's not necessary.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by celticagent
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
My OH explained the joke to me, alas, not in time to save me from looking a little bit daft on the Mustard Board. :-p
Had no idea "sinister" meant left. They don't teach Latin anymore!
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Adam, sorry for all the twists & turns on your discussion. I have no doubt you're an excellent classical violinist & and have good experience in playing bluegrass. Once again I would like to emphasize that Will Harmon's 1st post is coming from a fellow fiddle instructor who very often gives sound advice on this forum. Frankly, I don't know why he made the point of saying Michael Gill can play circles around you.
Aside from that each of them might be helpful if you wish to learn more about playing & teaching a style of music about which they are obviously passionate.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
FWIW, To the OP -
In fairness, i did read: "I teach all styles but specialize in bluegrass, celtic, classical and klezmer. "
Quite a caseload, your honor.
Trying to teach more than one style well is more than I would attempt - expertise in any well-rounded style from anywhere is, for me anyway, quite a challenge. And, how you choose to teach something will be a reflection of your respect for it.
I play a Scottish tune or two, but would never offer lessons on the subject (although I have told one or two enthusiasts, "This is what I was shown, and this is what I think I heard.") I usually want to send them to someone who is a specialist, with a grasp of and love of the stuff. I am not the one to be starting people off in that area.
Does any of that make sense, sir?
In any case, good luck.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Piece
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"They don't teach Latin anymore!"
Posted on December 16th 2011 by TheSilverSpear
Oh dear, perhaps enrollment is down. You didn't receive the reminder? ~
http://www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/latin/
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Not my department.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Fair play, unless of course they have better parties than your department. Which I'm guessing . . . oh well . . . en joy going to the sessions off campus.
Cheers!
Keep in mind you haven't passed the audition until you've been humiliated in a tub of mustard. A deep abysmal tub too.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Note to self: Never, ever, ever let this bunch hear a recording of my playing.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Al, I made that decision a long time ago.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
TSS: Maybe you should find someone to take online latin lessons with? Maybe you can find a roman on Google+ hangouts ;)
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"I don't say I play in an Irish band. I say some of the music we play is Irish."
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by celticagent
I can't believe you just changed the blurb on your home page from:
"I play fiddle with the Irish band Celticado"
to
"I play fiddle with the Celtic band Celticado"
You are a fraud sir.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Llig, are you serious about attacking this man simply because he doesn't meet your standard for Irish fiddling? You have insulted his playing and now call him a "fraud" attacking him personally beyond the context of the OP. You are desperately insecure if you need to carry on with such inane foolishness. If you didn't have experience teaching on line lessons you had no business to even involve yourself in this thread. Please grow up.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by copperplate
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I don't mean celticagent any harm, but I'm not a fan of classical violinists teaching fiddle when they haven't done the homework to learn much of anything about the music.
In response to a question further up, the only reason I mentioned Llig's abilities on fiddle is because D.J.F. challenge him on it. Not that it has anything to do with the OP. I was simply responding to D.J.F.'s aside with a further aside.
FWIW, I wouldn't presume to wade into a classical violin forum as a teacher and claim to play Bach with a gram of authenticity. I'm a fiddler (despite a year and a half of formal violin one-on-one at university).
Also, some of us may react more harshly than others because we've seen so many violinists wade into Irish music over the decade and presume to know the music when they don't at all. It wears thin. Not that this is an excuse for Llig's directness or my own unasked for critiques. But it does help explain our hackles standing up.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
He made no such claim of authenticity, Will, you guys attacked him for no reason and you aren't man enough to simply apologize.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by copperplate
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
copperplate, did you go to his personal website and see the pr claims of being half of an Irish band (that's now been changed to "Celtic")?
I have nothing to apologize for. He's charging people $55 an hour to teach from his own shallow skim of traditional music. I don't begrudge the guy making some bucks from teaching, but he should stick to what he knows. I've dealt with far too many students nearly ruined by violinists pretending to know anything about fiddle music. The hubris is appalling.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Will Harmon
Apology to Adam R Sweet
Recently I posted a criticism of wrongly attributed transcriptions to Adam R Sweet in his profile. I was under the mistaken belief that the "My Tunebook" section of this website contained the user's contribution to transcriptions. It's my understanding that Adam R Sweet had no hand in creating these transcriptions and I unreservedly withdraw my criticisms attributing any connection to him in this matter and offer my sincere apologies for not checking my facts thoroughly before posting.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"I've dealt with far too many students nearly ruined by violinists pretending to know anything about fiddle music."
Come on, Will. Your students are human beings (I hope), not objects. They might have learned some techniques or even some bad habits that can be hard to unlearn, but "nearly ruined" is a bit out of perspective. Besides, some students might want to take up classical violin one day instead. Are you "ruining" them or hampering their chances? Did you not take some lessons in classical violin?
If the OP has changed "Irish" to "Celtic", it's not a surprise considering the way he's been treated on this board. He asked a simple question as to what are other teachers' experiences of online. Instead of that, the response was to go through his website with a fine toothcomb and attempt to pull the guy apart.
You don't know the kind of students who have taken up lessons with the OP, or how they have progressed. You are making assumptions. The OP might have said he played in an "Irish band" but he never claimed to teach "Irish fiddle".
If anything, this accents the ambiguity of the term "Celtic", because, for example, some classical technique can be useful in the playing of North Eastern Scottish fiddle music (Scott Skinner attributed much of his "success" to Rougier's classical tuition), but such technique can indeed hamper the playing of Irish style music. Nevertheless, it is, as you say, an aside. It's nowt to do with the subject of the OP's thread.
BTW, playing in an "Irish band" could be construed in more than one way - for example:
Playing in a band in Ireland.
Playing in a band that originated in Ireland.
Playing in a band that plays Irish music.
One might hope that a band playing Irish music would play it in a traditional Irish style, but that doesn't always follow.
After all, does that "Irish band" The Dubliners not have a classical violinist in its line-up? Ach....the very thought of it!
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"go through his website with a fine toothcomb"? As if.
It was right there on the front page, you didn't even have to scroll down ... "I play fiddle with the Irish band Celticado". Now your man was right to change it, it was misleading. But he changed it and then posted, "I don't say I play in an Irish band".
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"It was right there on the front page, "
Why should you even have to go to the front page? The post was nothing to do with the poster's abilities as an "Irish" fiddler in a band.
"but I've just listened to some of your Irish music playing "
You went a bit further than the front page, didn't you?
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
" But he changed it and then posted, "I don't say I play in an Irish band"."
You are wrong there. He said he didn't play in an Irish band well before the wording was changed. Is this your normal way of getting people to avoid "misleading" wording, Mr Gill?
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Apology to Adam R Sweet
Good man yourself, Tony... lets see if the others on that thread have the decency to rise to the occasion.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by copperplate
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Oh, I apologise then:
He didn't change his website from "I play fiddle with the Irish band Celticado" and then post here, "I don't say I play in an Irish band".
Instead, he posted here "I don't say I play in an Irish band" and then he changed his website from, "I play fiddle with the Irish band Celticado".
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Slap on the handcuffs, guv.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
copperplate, but the good news is, you do have the choice to go elsewhere, the main problem with this thread and many other threads is not necessarily the insensitive nature of some of the comments, it's the fact that very few threads talk about the actual subject in question.... some discussions deserve to go off subject and some don't, "online learning is an interesting subject, it would have been nice to get some people who have experience with it, share their views", as there are probably lots of people on this site who may have that as their only option.
There are also lovey dovey discussion boards as well, you know the one's "I think you're great", "why thank you very much and I think you're great as well")
what's worse "the potential of destruction" or the complete and utter lack of construction".
my view is, If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much room.
but I would still like to know why something like Google+ hangouts is better than MSN or Skype ? for online learning. Or does online learning really work, for what part of the teaching, what's the best way to do it etc......
How to maximise the efficiency of learning online etc..
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Apology to Adam R Sweet
Good one Tony ...
The Guy's only trying to do his Best !
jim,,,
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Apology to Adam R Sweet
Yep. You've got the guts to admit you acted in haste.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
think he's fishing for students. Note to self: I post myself playing because I want your opinion. I know I suck but to have Ilig tell me I suck elevates my suckiness to new hieghts.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by croxton
Re: Apology to Adam R Sweet
fair play
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by palethinboy
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Once again I feel I should clarify. I don't ever say I am an expert in any of these styles. I use the melodies, rhythms, history, scales/modes to teach my students a method of playing the violin and the mandolin.
I came on here to talk about using the internet, specifically Google+ Hangouts, to teach. That's all.
I understand why everyone has commented on my playing, but that wasn't my question. I just want to be clear on that.
This sort of thread derailment is fine with me by the way, I find it very democratic and enjoy the twists and turns of the conversation.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by celticagent
Rare airs ~
With soapboxes I suspect it might have something to do with the rarefied air, being up so high that the lack of oxygen dulls the senses...
- Speaking from personal experience...
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ceolachan
Probably too late to resurrect this, but anyway...
How do you deal with the limitations of some people's internet connections? I can never get Skype to work decently for any length of time, and if I was trying to watch the nuances of someone's bow hand, or their fingering, I'd actually find it it difficult to do with a streamed webcam.
Also, what about the delay when playing a passage together? I read a discussion about a session over Skype once, but it just descended into to people fighting over the technical aspects of sending messages long distances.
I don't want to go into that, what I'm referring to is if you played a passage through with your student, and you ended up with a significant delay (which can happen at peak times) or the connection drops briefly, I'd find that would impact negatively. Obviously it's no direct replacement for an in-person lesson, but I'm curious to how one might overcome such difficulties.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I think It's a good idea to send a video showing what it is your looking for them to try... Then I went on Skype to see how they played it, and helped there, by showing how to adjust thing's to help them get it right.. Here's a video I sent that young lassie from Denmark.. ''See Link'' . Not TV quality video... And her Antrim accent has improved - lol..
But she learnt a tune or two.
jim,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR-fCea5ZaM&list=PLA63D972784C1C698&index=6&feature=plpp_video
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Apology to Adam R Sweet
nof only was it timely and nice, it was very well composed. next time i screw up and owe an apology, can i come to you for stylistic advice? these things are often done badly, but yours was brief yet complete, to the point, and extremely gracious, a model to us all.
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by full measure
"This sort of thread derailment is fine with me by the way, I find it very democratic and enjoy the twists and turns of the conversation."
# Posted on December 16th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Apology to Adam R Sweet
Fair play to Tony for the good manners.
His observations on the tunebook do show, however, that there is a lot of the sheet music on this site which could use some major tidying up.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"This sort of thread derailment is fine with me by the way, I find it very democratic and enjoy the twists and turns of the conversation."
celticagent has thicker skin than I do!
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
One of the problems with Skype and Google hangouts is the satellite delay. You can play separately, back and forth, taking turns, but never together. It's a bit frustrating.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by sara505sings
Tunes & quotes ~
"The Mountains Of Mourne" (minus any air/song category on site this was filed as 4/4 under 'reels')
Submitted on July 30th 2003 by gian marco.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1858
"- begins with an anacrusis bar of 2 beats, then the next bar contains 3 beats,and then bars of 4 beats. I've been reading music, indeed transcribing music, for about 33 years and I've got no idea what type of tune "Mountains Of Mourne" is but it's definitely not a reel -"
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Tony O'Rourke
"Dr. Gilbert's Reel"
Submitted as e minor on June 8th 2001 by Will Harmon.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/129
"- an incorrect key signature. It should have 2 sharps(F & C) as it is played in the Dorian Mode and not the Aeolian. I would play a d instead of a C for the third note of Bar 2."
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Tony O'Rourke
"Fleur De Mandragore" C: Michel Bordeleau (Quebecois & crooked)
Submitted on June 4th 2002 by seara.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/731
"- the second time ending in Part 1 contains only 3 beats,and the next bar contains only 3 beats, and also that the B part contains 9 bars."
# Posted on December 15th 2011 by Tony O'Rourke
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by ceolachan
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Before I posted my first comment in this thread, I took the time to check out celticagent's profile, and then followed the links there which led to clips of him playing. One of them is him playing Lark in the Morning, an Irish jig.
Mr. Sweet charges money to teach ($55 an hour, which is more than Brian Conway charges)--in part using Irish tunes--yet Lark in the Morning shows he understands very little about how this typically phrased, pulsed, bowed or articulated. His teaching policies say he's a "serious teacher," and he says "this is an aural tradition" (so he's spotlighting traditional music). Yet he's clearly lacking any serious understanding of how the music is played.
When the disconnect between his claims and his playing were pointed out, he changed "Irish" to "Celtic" in several key spots on his web site and returned here to
I find this all disingenuous at best.
Teachers of any kind have a responsibility to be honest and forthright in all their interactions with learners. The relationship absolutely hinges on trust. I stand by my earlier comment about students being "nearly ruined" by teachers who did not act in good faith. I've seen that result all too often in severe self-esteem and other emotional damage to students. Music lessons tend to go to the heart of who we are (for both teacher and student) no less and often more so than any other form of education and self-improvement. It's not a situation to be trifled with.
Mr. Sweet is free to do what he wants. But he posted his query on a forum devoted to Irish traditional music, and originally presented himself through his profile as someone who plays Irish fiddle. As I did in previous posts, I'm simply suggesting that he either learn more about this music or stick to what he already knows. (Using poorly played Irish tunes to teach classical violin makes about as much sense as using Samuel Barber adagio in Gm to teach Donegal reels.) I for one would expect more for my $55.
*Of course* all of this is relevant to someone asking about teaching online music lessons. That scenario is much more open to potential misfeasance than face-to-face lessons. It's incumbent on the teacher to be up front and honest.
And contrary to what some say here, I'm not lashing out from the anonymity of the net out of some imagined insecurity. Unlike most posters on this thread, my username is my actual name. I would gladly say all of this to Adam's face, though I suspect we'd both rather down pints and play some music together.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I don't know. There is a bit of chutzpah in saying you teach "Celtic" fiddle without having much of a handle on (various) "Celtic" styles and charging more than I've ever paid any music teacher for the privilege.
I have paid up to $55 for lessons from a Grand Prix-level dressage trainer. That's like the horsey equivalent of learning from Paddy Keenan or someone of that calibre. I think that is what people are taking issue with; if he'd just posted saying, "This is me playing," he'd get the critique that he did not sound very Irish, but I don't think he would have been given such a hard time.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
As I recall, two loooong days ago:
A man posted a question relating to his online teaching of fiddle, on a website where a small bio and favorite links can be placed right next to his name.
The man had links there to his classes, and some of his musical affiliations.
What person who wanted to respond WOULDN'T check out what the man is teaching and how?
There was no "witch hunt" here on that score, people, simply the first responder taking a good look before maked an informed response.
Having observed what the man was teaching, the resonder then voiced his God-given opinion, popular or not.
Any problems with that?
I am not defending anyone's POV nor their attitude, but keep to the facts. Any major digression from the subject of the OP was quite predictable, IMHO. Perhaps it was even in context, as the effectiveness of on-line instruction for musical instruments was definately part of the larger picture.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Piece
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
The guy has never offered "Irish Fiddle lessons" (I did look up what he was offering when this nonsense started - and I only recall seeing the word "Irish" used in regard to the band "Celticado". This was still up on the website after Mr Gill took him to task and he said he didn't say he was in an "Irish band" I remember that, because I was expecting Mr Gill to claim his 12 points by linking the quote. He left it too late (it was a good while after that this was changed). If it had been changed before Mr Sweet had said that he hadn't said he was in an Irish band, it would be a bit underhand - but not a hanging offence.
As for $55 an hour for violin lessons from a graduate with playing experience and 25 years teaching experience under his belt, it's not over the top at all going by the figures mentioned here:
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=17827
For someone with a child to feed, it seems reasonable.
I believe Brian Conway has a full time job in an attorney's office or some such. Maybe he does tuition more for the love of it (though I'm not going to assume that is the case).
"One of them is him playing Lark in the Morning, an Irish jig."
I wonder how Niel Gow played it at the time it was published in his first book of "Strathspey reels" as "Kelso Races" in 1784? The notation is not quite up to scratch for the diddley police, anyway.
"Using poorly played Irish tunes to teach classical violin makes about as much sense as using Samuel Barber adagio in Gm to teach Donegal reels."
It's all a matter of opinion. IMO, a violin teacher who at least recognises that tradional tunes exist is a plus. There is a difference between using a tune that might be easily remembered to teach technique (even if it is not played to diddley police standards) and using something that's not a reel to teach a specific style of playing a reel.
I just wonder how many ruined people have been on the shrink's couch. "Well, Doc, it all started when I was taught the wrong way to play diddley".
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Defenders of the Faith
In spite of llig's warnings about its inadequacy, people do come to thesession.org for information on Irish traditional music, which they might refer to as "Celtic"--which can be
either a term of convenience, or the mark of watered-down fake Irish/Scottish "Americana." I think it is appropriate for knowledgeable people here to point out that a certain online
teacher is not expert in Irish fiddling techniques, especially when that teacher's advertising is a bit vague on that point. Uninformed beginners deserve to know what they are getting.
Now I don't know Mr. Sweet personally, so I couldn't say
for sure--but he appears to be one of those highly trained classical musicians who assumes that he can easily handle any traditional music genre, thanks to his academic training. Some academic music types apparently think that
traditional music is just a subset, or primitive prototype, of their "fully developed music."
People like llig and Will Harmon post here to say it ain't necessarily so, for the benefit of those less informed. They should be told that fiddlers like James Kelly and Brian Conway are also available, if they have a budding interest in "Celtic" music. It happens that Mr. Sweet was fishing for a student here in 2006, and others gave similar warnings:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/11849/comments#comment240666
But I'll be honest. For me, it's just really annoying that a self-proclaimed "Celtic fiddle teacher" apparently hasn't learned any Irish fiddling techniques--no rolls, scratchy trebles, etc. And not because he grew up in Scotland, or Cape Breton, where they don't do rolls so much.
Apparently he just isn't that drawn to Irish music, really....
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I stand corrected. What I should have said was "...Lark in the Morning, a jig, commonly notated in 6/8 time, whose origins can be traced at least as far back as Scotland, that is now widely played within the community of Irish traditional musicians, many of whom aren't of Irish descent and/or do not live in or near the island known in the English language as Ireland or the Republic of Ireland...."
Geez, Weej, if nits are all you have to pick, you don't have much of a case, eh?
The actual point I made stands.
I suspect what Adam Sweet misjudged was the fact that a given genre of music isn't just a collection of tunes. It's a community of living people who care about the music. It's quite common for those communities or members thereof (the legalese is for Weejie's sake) to raise doubt when someone from outside the community advertises themselves performing and teaching said music. All the more likely when the person outside looking in demonstrates little or no understanding of the details that make the genre what it is, distinguishable from others.
As for the man's fee, I've yet to meet an Irish or any other traditional fiddler who charge more than $40 an hour for private lessons. Some of them (e.g., Oisin Mac Diarmada) have music degrees as well. And they know intimately what they teach.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
P.S. I have two sons to feed (and pay medical bills for and college tuition). When I was teaching full time, I charged $35 for an hour' lesson. Mine was the highest fee in town among non-classical teachers. It was based on 35 years of teaching experience and actual expertise in the genres I taught.
The point I made previously isn't that Adam's fee is exorbitant in itself. I'm saying that it is high enough to warrant getting something substantive in exchange. Perhaps his classical students do receive that substance. Based on what I've heard and what's available from other teachers, I would not guess that anyone looking for Irish or "Celtic" fiddle instruction would not be getting their money's worth from Adam.
Which is only my opinion. I'm not proclaiming it as "fact," and I'm not pretending to be a "savior" of anything. The posters here who tend to blow things out of proportion also like to project that onto others, whether it fits or not. I suppose that's their problem at the end of the day....
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Um, too many "nots" in that last sentence of the second paragraph. ...
should be: "...I would not guess that anyone looking for Irish or "Celtic" fiddle instruction would be getting their money's worth from Adam."
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Hmmm...from that earlier thread John Galt linked to:
"I teach all styles, but my specialties are Celtic/Bluegrass/Klezmer." Posted by celticagent.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"What I should have said was "..."
Point missed. You don't own the music. Either that tune is Scottish or Irish and it would have been played one way or the other long ago when it first eased itself out of an instrument. One would be playing it outside the "genre" even back then.
I don't recall Mr Sweet claiming it was either Irish or played in an Irish style.
" I've yet to meet an Irish or any other traditional fiddler who charge more than $40 an hour "
Fair enough. But many violin teachers do (and many charge a lot more). Should someone drop their prices because trad teachers don't charge that much?
"the legalese is for Weejie's sake"
If you want to look at things from a "legal" aspect - there is no mens rea from what I can see. You behave as this is all deliberate (at least Mr Gill's attitude suggests that).
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"The posters here who tend to blow things out of proportion "
Well, you said it, bud.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I have to wonder if anyone on this thread will have half the grace Tony O'Rourke displayed when he realized his errors.
Several of us have been maligned for challenging Mr. Sweet's game, yet it turns out he has all along presented himself as "specializing" in, among other things, "Celtic" fiddle instruction.
To gibe, either his playing or his advertising needs an adjustment....
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"Hmmm...from that earlier thread John Galt linked to:
"I teach all styles, but my specialties are Celtic/Bluegrass/Klezmer." Posted by celticagent"
I've also quoted that passage. The guy's bluegrass mandolin seems reasonable enough. His Scottish fiddling is reasonable. Anyone want to slam him for his Klezmer style?
He also clarifies his position by saying that he teaches violin using traditional tunes. we've been there already. If the guy professed to be a master of Irish fiddling, there might be a case for blowing your top.
"When I was teaching full time, I charged $35 for an hour' lesson. Mine was the highest fee in town among non-classical teachers. It was based on 35 years of teaching experience and actual expertise in the genres I taught."
That's your business. Weren't some dudes pushing you to raise your fees to $40-45?
Not really relevant, anyway.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Weej, you can argue that Mr. Sweet claims to play "Celtic" and not "Irish" fiddle, but either way, his declarations of a specialty certainly are deliberate.
You're missing the swamp for all the weeds.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Weej missing the point: "Fair enough. But many violin teachers do (and many charge a lot more). Should someone drop their prices because trad teachers don't charge that much?"
Of course not. But anyone looking for good instruction on trad fiddle can find it, and at a lower price, elsewhere.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"You're missing the swamp for all the weeds."
On the contrary. I've not the slightest bit interested in visiting the swamp.
I read this, however:
" never said I was an Irish fiddler. I'm a classically trained violinist who has played mostly bluegrass since 1980. I only started learning about traditional Irish fiddle music in 1995. I guess you could say my background is in contradance fiddling, which is really a mixed bag of tunes from western Europe, mostly scots-irish.
I don't tell students that I will teach them traditional Irish playing. They come to me to learn how to play the violin and the mandolin. I teach those instruments using "celtic, bluegrass, klezmer and classical" melodies because I am most familiar with those styles, not because I am an expert in them."
That's fair enough. It shouldn't warrant your little crusade of trying to save the people from ruination.
Chill, dude.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"But anyone looking for good instruction on trad fiddle can find it, and at a lower price, elsewhere"
Does Mr Sweet have any students who came looking specifically for trad fiddle instruction? Is it not possible that he would explain his position before taking on the student?
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
It's not just the money, there's the opportunity cost.
Why spend an hour with a violinist who dabbles in many traditional styles, when you could spend that hour with, say, James Kelly?
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I read the OP as someone fishing for students. But I thought that changing Irish to Celtic was a very reasonable thing to do. Like it or not Irish tunes being played in a non-irish-traditional way happens. They are good tunes. I would have thought that using 'Celtic' as a way of describing that would upset the purists less than calling it 'Irish' .
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by David50
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Oh I'm as chill as they come. You've mistaken me for someone else.
Adam posted his clarification only after he edited his web site, in response to concerns raised here.
It's simply a good example of the sort of things potential students should consider when looking for a teacher. Someone who says they "specialize" in a genre apparently may simply mean they're "familiar" with them and not "an expert in them." It's a not uncommon ploy.
Caveat emptor.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
David, if "Celtic" had any actual meaning in reference to musical genres, it might be reasonable. A more accurate advert for Adam's business might read: "I teach violin and mandolin using Scottish, Irish, bluegrass, klezmer, and classical melodies."
Frankly, if I were a prospective student, I'd be more interested in his methods for teaching technique. You can learn sound technique on fiddle and mandolin playing almost any style of music, which I'm guessing is more in line with Adam's actual practice.
If you want to learn a specific genre, however, you're best off going to a teacher who genuinely specializes in that genre.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
BTW Weej, in many jurisdictions, mens rea doesn't apply to civil cases, which would include breach of contract (arguably for, say, collecting fees for instruction as a specialist yet being unable to deliver the requisite skills because the instructor him/herself does not posses the requisite skills or understanding of the specialty).
At any rate, we don't know what Adam was thinking when he advertised himself as specializing in these genres. My hunch is he meant well, but he was also hoping to generate income. As you yourself, Weej, so often like to point out, he could've been more selective with his wording.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Will, if this is as chill as they come then I certainly don't understand what all the posts are for.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
As a music teacher, it's a topic that interests me.
And I'm posting between watching coats of paint dry on the bedroom trim.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"BTW Weej, in many jurisdictions, mens rea doesn't apply to civil cases,"
Then why make a crime out of something that's not even a civil tort?
"Adam posted his clarification only after he edited his web site, in response to concerns raised here."
No, he didn't. I'm quite sure of that.
"Why spend an hour with a violinist who dabbles in many traditional styles, when you could spend that hour with, say, James Kelly?"
Anyone is free to do just that.
"David, if "Celtic" had any actual meaning in reference to musical genres, it might be reasonable. A more accurate advert for Adam's business might read: "I teach violin and mandolin using Scottish, Irish, bluegrass, klezmer, and classical melodies." "
Well there you go. You can top up your meagre 35 bucks per hour by saving Mr Sweet from litigation concerning his misrepresentation of his services - re-write his contract terms for him.
"he could've been more selective with his wording."
As could those who came down on him like a ton of bricks - a wee PM might have been enough.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Erm, I mean "only applies to civil cases."
No one here made a criminal case out of anything. Really? Heh heh. Nearly every time you call someone on hyperbole, you turn around and do it yourself. "Ton of bricks" indeed. A shame to let a few hundred words weigh so heavily on you, my friend.
Though I see you agree that he misrepresented his services.
The thread wouldn't be near so long if you and a few others weren't so intent on defending that (intentional or otherwise) misrepresentation.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
LOL, perhaps you could explain why you participate in a discussion forum when it bothers you that people discuss things in that discussion forum rather than networking behind the scenes through wee PMs.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
This thread alone, not to mention the apology thread, is perhaps some of the best advertising A.R. Sweet could have hoped for.
Brilliant maestro!
As an aside I've really enjoyed the videos Jim prepared for Sabrina. Cheers, Fiddle4U ;)
If you don't mind me saying, Mr. Sweet, they're worth a wee bit of your time. You might enjoy them as well.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"LOL, perhaps you could explain why you participate in a discussion forum when it bothers you that people discuss things in that discussion forum rather than networking behind the scenes through wee PMs."
There's discussion and there's slagging off. There's also a quiet word in the ear. I've been both on the giving and receiving ends of that method more than once.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Pass the popcorn
---------------------
"Why spend an hour with a violinist who dabbles in many traditional styles, when you could spend that hour with, say, James Kelly?"
Anyone is free to do just that.
----------------------
Yes, they are.
And we are free to point out that a person who wants to learn about Irish traditional music is better off going to a teacher who genuinely does specialize in it.
If we really want to get psuedo-legalistic about it, let's examine the 2006 case. Someone named ascie, apparently from Poland, started a discussion with:
"i am looking a good (FIDDLE's) teacher. I want to learn irish music!!!!!;) can u help me?"
ascie later adds, "ehhh i am beginner.. I mean, I have played the violin from 10 years but i always played classic music. I love Irish and I want to play this kind of music;) i know... there are many books about fiddles' play but i need " a human" who can teach me;)"
And: "I love music and irish danc/ ing . and I know that I have to listen this music if I want to learn ofcourse but it is a problem because there are many ornaments which i can not play;/;/;/ because i do not know how i should play this ornaments;/;/"
This is obviously a person who should get instruction from an expert fiddler-- he/she already plays the violin, wants to learn Irish fiddle in particular. Yet Mr. Sweet offered his services, "fee negotiable."
Will Harmon, ethical blend, kennedy, and apparently benhall.1 (comment deleted?) all advised against a hasty decision.
It's deja vu, all over again.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"The thread wouldn't be near so long if you and a few others weren't so intent on defending that (intentional or otherwise) misrepresentation."
Ho ho. It's not so much defending the misrepresentation as putting things into perspective after the onslaught.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Well said, Mr. Galt.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"...putting things into perspective after the onslaught."
Me too.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Weej, you're welcome to your perspective. Just bear in mind that it is after all only *your* perspective. The rest of us are quite capable of thinking for ourselves, happily.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"No one here made a criminal case out of anything. Really? Heh heh."
"You are a fraud sir."
Posted on December 16th 2011 by llig leahcim
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Yes, Llig can be harsh. But on this occasion, he was also right.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
In spite of all my rage... I'm still just pixels on a screen.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Relax, it's just a bad review. Honest opinions aired.
It's also a public service. If a person represents himself as a teacher of Irish traditional fiddle and offers to take other peoples' money--when in fact that person has not mastered the fundamentals of it himself....
That's not an attack, it's defending the innocent.
It isn't libel, if it's true.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"If a person represents himself as a teacher of Irish traditional fiddle "
Which, going by Mr Sweet's current website is not the case (nor was it three days ago).
"It isn't libel, if it's true"
What is true or not true?
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
True: Mr. Sweet is not an accomplished, much less expert, Irish-style fiddler. His playing of Irish traditional tunes, as shown in his online samples, does not demonstrate the typical characteristics of highly respected traditional Irish fiddlers.
True: Mr. Sweet has offered in the past to give Irish fiddle lessons in exchange for a fee, when he is not adequately versed in those techniques himself. (The current situation is a fluid one.)
True: Several members of thesession.org pointed out these facts, for the benefit of the readership.
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
The site might benefit with a *new* category for classified adverts. Music lessons, instruments for sale, personals, trousers . . .
I'm joking!
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I've got some Irish traditional trousers for sale as it happens.
They've been handed down through generations and they are in plus four metre (unlike my partner's old 2/2 from ballet dancing days).
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Where's Greg King when you need him?
# Posted on December 17th 2011 by Weejie
Hangouts to give lessons
All joking aside, I sincerely think there is something in the idiom(s) of traditional Irish music which is not always given it's due. I trust some, perhaps even a few on board, who say it is not to be learnt through various methods of formal music training (whatever that is). Rather it is brought to life, all too rarely, when one perks up one's ears ~ recognizing something in the tune(s) & feels an urge to play, to dance, to roll about in the rye grass?
Beg pardon for the play on words. ;)
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Public service
anyone googling for online Irish fiddle lessons will find this thread probably top of the list. Job done.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ...
Ha ha
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
False:anyone googling for online Irish fiddle lessons will find this thread probably top of the list.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Michael Gill, on what basis did you post your most recent comment?
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Beg pardon, llig. I finally got it, front & center, on Google by typing in
< google+ hangouts/irish fiddle lessons >
Apparently I was too hasty.
Cheers!
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Well, I tried it and got this:
http://www.onlinelessonvideos.com/home.php?cat=270
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
This one also lists the thread as #1
llig leachim/irish fiddle lessons
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Ah - so it's all to put Mr Gill on top of the list.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Aye, but they'll have to buy them all first. I'll be asking for my commission in January. I might even earn as much as $55 - enough for a real fiddle lesson.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Or I could just buy this and get change:
http://www.amazon.de/Adagio-nach-keltischen-Melodien-Op/dp/B0051K67GU
Composed in 1891 BTW. Who said "Celtic" was a new-fangled term?
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Copperplate, if I'm not mistaken "all those people" on Weejie's link are in fact the same fiddle instructor ~ Ian Walsh.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Oh man... is he ever in trouble then...
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by copperplate
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Nah, there's Paul Huppert in there to spread the load.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Fair play!
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
So, why a "j" ? Why not Weegie? or is the screen name more arbitrary?
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Too many people might pronounce the 'g' as in guitar.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
But, it's from Norwegian, no?
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Fascinating--Ian Walsh (whose Irish tunes sound OK to me) also teaches bluegrass!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgN7v8nWmx8&feature=related
And here's the first comment: "Sounds great but it looks so odd because the bowing technique looks so celtic / irish and it sounds basicly like bluegrass! "
I don't know anything about bluegrass, so I'm no judge... is Ian overreaching, from the other direction, or does he know bluegrass fiddle pretty well? Well enough to teach it?
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Whoa! There's a few lives ruined:
http://www.onlinelessonvideos.com/product.php?productid=16334&cat=270&page=1
Not to worry though - Ian ruins a few Baroque sudents' lives in return:
http://www.onlinelessonvideos.com/product.php?productid=16327&cat=270&page=1
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"But, it's from Norwegian, no?"
Nah, they play dishonest hardingfele thingies.
The Glasgow Weejies are honest Wegians.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I dunno... that G major scale didn't sound very Irish to me.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by copperplate
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I've recommended Ian's clips to my students for some time now. I steer them toward lots of players so they can hear other styles and approaches to the music. Ian's particularly strong as a bluegrass fiddler, but I like his Irish playing too. He does a nice job on The Blackbird on one of his clips.
copperplate's defense shields are blinding him--he sees only what he expects to see, not what some of us actually post.
And if using rolls, trebles, and bowing beyond single bow strokes constitutes "elevated standards," then clearly one of us is on the wrong forum....
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Sorry about assuming you're associating with a different lot. Glasgow it is. The spelling is fine as well, although I don't mind using the g, now that it's been properly sorted.
As they say in Venice, "Ciao." For myself it's time for a change of scenery. Keep the banter lively, & at the tip top of your diddley-googley.
T.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Javel - ha det bra!
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyhCWmKYN0o
http://www.celticado.net/recordings.html (scroll down for Lark in the Morning)
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-neipG-7w
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Weejie
Just imagine...
if he'd been offering bodhran lessons.
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by SmashTheWindows
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Thanks STW, I can't believe you're only the second person to use the dreaded B word
# Posted on December 18th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
To be fair, Celtic Agent is not a complete newbie although most of his threads so far appear to about trying to promote or push something or other.
It's fairly obvious to me (and I'm not the least gullible of people) that the OP was hoping that there might be some interest from potential students as a result of his post. Nothing wrong with that although he could have been more "up front" about it.
He doesn't have to be an "Irish player" to be useful teacher of traditional music either as long as he doesn't claim to be so if he's not. I'm sure many of have learned much from tutors and other musicians in all genres even if it's only adding new tunes to our repertoire.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Mr Gill, if you are of the cynical type, then the shrewd response would be to respond to the OP at face value. Even negatively responding on the lines of "online teaching might be OK for some but I don't like it". Responding the way you have done has drawn attention to your cynicism and at the same time achieving what you imply the OP is trying to achieve. Will responded in what might have been the shrewd way in his first post.
# Posted on December 19th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I'm surprised nobody remembers this CelticAgent guy from years ago. He stirred up a big ugly argument about written music and how it's so important. And then he started the same kind of discussion on an American old-time fiddle board and just about got kicked off of it because he was very sanctimonious about how no musician is any good unless they read music. Those old-time fiddlers are even more allergic to dots than some of us are here!
So I'm not surprised that he's trolling for students here. I never forgot him because I remember the way he plays. No one remembers?
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by kennedy
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
You'll have to take that up with himself, AlBrown. Personally, I don't know how eager he is to assume the worst, I'm sure he's jumped to conclusions (but doesn't hold the patent), & I'm really not opposed to some form of critique in these discussions. In the present case it is my humble opinion Llig did not step out of line in posting his comments about Adam's playing of Irish (&/or celtic) fiddle playing. Though it differs significantly from my concerns.
In short, I find civility where others may not. Yet, this does not mean I am ignoring incivilities as these have come to my attention. I have made attempts to be judicious during the discussion. But, I have little will to repeat what I have said previously ~ as this is available if anyone wishes to search the thread.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Cross-posted
Cheers, Kennedy. It took me awhile to type out my response for AlBrown. I hope it helps.
Kennedy, unfortunately it appears a day or two has been deleted from discussion in 2006. You know the routine.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ain't fluffed
. . .
Sorry, about that. The discussion I was referring to is the one linked on this thread about someone seeking a fiddle instructor. Kennedy is probably referring to another discussion.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
It was another discussion, but right about that time. I remember I didn't feel qualified to have much of a voice in the conversation because I had just started playing and I thought to myself, "well, he plays a whole lot better than I do, so I'll just keep quiet." But it was about written music. He felt it was essential to becoming a good musician and was pretty snobby about it.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by kennedy
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Thanks Kennedy. Without jumping too much on the bones of a dead horse I'd like to add my impression. At this time, in my playing, I think my ear is good enough to distinguish a player who makes a valiant effort to play every note on the page from someone who plays music in a (so-called) Irish idiom. Beg pardon for being so cryptic.
This response is not intended to deter anyone from learning celtic, klezmer, & bluegrass fiddle playing from Adam R. Sweet, if you so desire. It is his advert afterall.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I think it's pretty easy to tell who sounds authentic and who doesn't, even if you can't play a note yourself. There's been a lot of unhappiness about teachers who take money without offering the goods, but we need to put some of the responsibility on the prospective student, as well. If you're really after a particular style, you'd best know the style well enough to recognize it when you hear it, or at least know when you're not hearing it. We get into playing music because we love it, which implies a bit of taste and discrimination. People need to learn to tell the difference between average playing & really good playing.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by kennedy
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"We get into playing music because we love it, which implies a bit of taste and discrimination. People need to learn to tell the difference between average playing & really good playing."
And also the difference between average, generic teaching and really good, focused teaching.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
There will always be "average" playing. Whether the "average" is acceptable or not is dependent on how high the bar has been set by the really good players and how low the poorer ones have sunk. Also, it depends on how many of each there are and so on.
So, as standards improve, "average" might not be that bad a thing.
Will, I get all your points and those made by many others here.
Leaving this particular gentleman aside, are you suggesting that it's always wrong to have a more general tuition in traditional music or are there occasions when it might be acceptable? It surely depends on the student(s) stage of development and/or what (s)he is seeking at the time?
If someone wants to focus on Irish music and become a really good player understanding all its nuances and intricacies, then obviously they should seek out a good experienced exponent in this field which the OP obviously isn't.
However, some may just wish to learn the basics of the fiddle or gain an insight into traditional music in general. At the Scots Music Group in Edinburgh and in similar organisations elsewhere, the tutors are very varied in terms of experience and background but, hopefully, they all do a fair enough job. Some are very focused while others take a more general approach; e.g. I went to a highly regarded Scottish fiddler one year who gave us excellent advice in improving our style especially with regard to strathspeys.
In other "mixed instrument" classes, the tutors will teach a variety of music often from different genres. However, while they are usually good musicians in their own fields, they can hardly be described as experts in everything they teach. That's not the point of the exercise though.
So, I don't think that it's the "content of the syllabus" or even the level of tuition(Though you obviously wouldn't wish to visit or recommend a "duff teacher") which is the issue but whether or not what is being offered is the genuine thing.
After reading all these posts over the last few days, that's my conclusion.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
John J., I think you've got it. Over the years, the students I've seen generally fall into one of two camps. First are those who want to learn to play an *instrument* and they're not sure what genre of music they want to play. Second are those who come looking to learn a specific genre of music.
Any reasonably adept teacher can help those in the first camp. But those in the second camp are usually better off with a teacher who genuinely specializes in the type of music they want to learn.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I've invariably found that your fist camp, those who just want to learn to play an instrument (it's always the bloody guitar), are not really into music at all, and progress slowly, if at all. Though some do develop into actually growing a liking for music, so I wouldn't like to write them all off.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
llig, I think there are people who say "I want to learn how to play an instrument" but really mean "I want to wake up one day with a full understanding and mastery of an instrument without putting any effort into getting to that point"
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by deltasalmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Not quite the same, I've never put any "effort" into it. (not that I'm saying I ever just woke up and thought I could play, of course)
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
So is "effort" what people who "try" do ?
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by David50
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
You will also get those who aren't entirely focused on Irish music and may not wish to be. However, they may have several Irish tunes in their repertoire and want to learn more.
In an ideal world, musicians wishing to learn the music of any genre should focus on this and make every effort to "master" that particular style but we know that this doesn't always happen... not even with really good players.
So, you'll get Irish players who will also play a few Scottish or Shetland tunes. Scottish players may play some Irish tunes, Scandinavian, Cape Breton, Klezmer even.
There are a few notable exceptions who will fully immerse themselves in whatever they decide to do. However, in my experience, the majority of musicians appear to major in one particular style or genre of music while the other parts of their repertoire is more of a "side show".
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Why do so many think Irish music is a thing to be mastered?
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I prefer to think of it as... well... trying to figure out what it is about The Music that makes it work so well, and sound so good. And because it feels so good when I finally almost get some twiddly bit just right.
Mastery will never happen, for me. I'm too old and clumsy, not to mention lazy. But improvement almost always can happen, and I like improving.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I suppose it just seems like something still left to be tamed. "I just conquered K2, slew a charging Bengal tiger with my bare hands, & mastered Irish rhythm."
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Oh, I see--that's the secret! You have to work your way up to it by doing some easier things first.
# Posted on December 20th 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"bloody guitar), are not really into music at all, and progress slowly, if at all. Though some do develop into actually growing a liking for music, so I wouldn't like to write them all off."
I learned a long time ago, the hard way (for both myself and one particular student) to not give up on a student just because of my own silly biases. You just never know when a "clueless hack" is going to show up next week making wonderful music. The proverbial caterpillar-to-butterfly transformation. I've seen it many, many times over the years.
Of course, a good, enthusiastic teacher, mentor, or coach may be one of the factors that moves an aimless or frustrated wannabe to find a focus and an understanding they were missing before. But my hunch is that 99.9% of it comes from within the person him/herself, the mentor just helps articulate the desire and steps out of the way when the wings start to rustle against the cocoon.
# Posted on December 21st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Except that unlike insect lava, humans are more usually neotenic.
# Posted on December 21st 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I tried a trad teacher for a short while, but luckily I ran out of money and discovered that the best teaching I've received has come via sitting in with some of the best fiddlers in my city - watching, listening, imitating, week after week over the past couple of years, and I'm not done yet.
# Posted on December 21st 2011 by sara505sings
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I have learned the most in life by learning to llisten, and not just in music.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by Feargal French
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
likewise
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
If I remember correctly what neotenic means, and it refers to adult creatures exhibiting juvenile characteristics, I think the word sums up much of the discussion on this thread...
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I was using it in response to Will's cocoon analogy. Where not all axolotls undergo the metamorphosis into salamanders.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I got that llig, but its too cryptic for me to work out if you meant that humans were usually retaining juvenile characteristics that were good or bad for the purpose of making music.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by David50
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
.. meant that the retained juvinile features were good or bad for ...
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by David50
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
What *percentage* does the teacher contribute to learning & how much from the student? Ideally, I suppose, it's a 50-50 relationship. Potentially each one has something to learn.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
I wouldn't say there could be any confusion between the necessity of retaining child-like wonder and the necessity of mature decision making.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"What *percentage* does the teacher contribute"?
I'd say it was about the length of a piece of string
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
You know, llig, percentage is a ratio? Or did your teachers keep that from you?
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
% is a "certain" ratio.
(anyone remember that band?)
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"I tried a trad teacher for a short while, but luckily I ran out of money and discovered that the best teaching I've received has come via sitting in with some of the best fiddlers in my city - watching, listening, imitating, week after week over the past couple of years"
Having watched this go on, I have to say it's working nicely.
"and I'm not done yet."
What is this 'done' you speak of?
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
The Parts Per Hundred Band?
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
http://acrmcr.com/
No, I've never heard this band. At least now I know where you learnt your maths?
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Llig, sometimes it is hard to know if it the cynic or the optimist making posts. Yes, if its two lengths of string then the total length is, in the context, more important that the ratio and percentages are, in any case, a bad way of expressing the latter.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by David50
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
From The Miram-Webber online Ductionary;
Done:
1. Kaput, dead & gone, to breath no more, to cease all functions.
2. Out to pasture.
3. To exist only in cyber-space archives.
4. Temporary condition of suspension. i.e. done for now, but not dead yet. see Dungeon.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
It took me awhile to sort out the word puzzle.
The length of a piece of string = 100% (of the sting's length)
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
< string's length >
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
No, you were right the first time. A string is are exactly as long as Gordon Sumner. Little-known facts of nature...
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Done yet?
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
It's no wonder wit is becoming less appreciated. Goggle becomes the fallback position. We're not any smarter for that, but everything is at our fingertips.
Gordon Sumner = Sting
Cheers, JK. You're far to witty for my 3 year old OS. Forget actually using my human brain.
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
< far too witty >
# Posted on December 22nd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Sure, not every acorn becomes an oak tree, but I don't want to presume to be the judge of who'll become a musician and who won't. (That said, I don't string people along just to take their money, either. If someone shows no progress, we start exploring what's holding them up. In worst cases, I suggest they save their money, take a break from lessons, and just play what they already have to work on until they feel ready to start up again.)
As for what percent comes from the teacher or the student? Having taught music since 1974, I suspect I never taught anyone anything. People learn and acquire music, and a good mentor can ease the way, but very little of it can actually be taught. We learn music by doing, and no one else can do it for you.
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Is this a new topic or are we still on the original advert?
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
What is so difficult about the concept we each learn from one another?
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Learning from one another is pretty straight forward, however, learning from oneself is the essence of creativity
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
And here I thought it was the art of disguising your sources....
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by John Galt
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
"The music is a human latticework of creation and respect for not only those who's shoulders people aspire to humbly and precariously perch upon, but also those whose shoulders are the aspirations of those who wish to precariously perch."
"I never assume I can do anything with this music on my own."
~ the shoulders of giants
# Posted on December 23rd 2011 by ain't fluffed
rest up
# Posted on December 24th 2011 by ain't fluffed
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
tee he
# Posted on December 24th 2011 by ...
Re: Using Google+ Hangouts to give lessons
Yes, the music means nothing unless you put 100% of yourself in it. But it ain't the music unless that 100% is still a small proportion of the total. If you ever lose the respect for the giants on whose shoulders you are standing, it merely becomes self indulgent trite.
# Posted on December 24th 2011 by ...