Hi everyone, i just want to know what is the advantage and disadvantage from Polymer whistles with other materials (Nickel, Brass, Wood)? Wish to have your suggestion. Thank you
There's 1) nickel/brass vs polymer/wood and 2) polymer vs wood.
1) They have different wall thicknesses and textures. So the sound is different, you can hear it sometimes, a 'woody' tone. Plus for polymer/wood whistles you can have a conical bore (not the Clarke one) or undercut toneholes.
2) Polymer requires less maintenance .
Polymer is cheaper, usually, easy-maintenance, less prone to humidity and temperature effects, and more or less identical owing to the production methods.
Brass, nickel, and wood are more aesthetically pleasing, but costlier to make, more susceptible to damage, and more likely to be out of tune.
Tin is cheap, easy to maintain, has a nice authentic chiffy sound, and is not prone to problems. I just replaced my good old tin-plated-steel, wooden-fipple Clarke whistle after nearly a decade of use (it finally rusted through from the inside). Its replacement is (no surprise) yet another Clarke.
Materials make next to no difference in a whistle. What they do is determine the design. The design is what makes all the difference.
Plastics are used for the most stable, repeatable result with the advantage of a wider range of design possiblities. Plastics are also used to provide commercial viability to the production of whistles. But they have a few downsides:
Firstly, there is a high set-up cost .. it is vanishingly rare that any decent instrument maker will gain enough capital for the investment .. so the job gets done by sub-prime designers.
Secondly, the commercialisation further removes the manufacturer from the player - the manufacturer turns exclusively to profit. The result of that is that the plant atrophies - as has been seen with Generation whistles.
Thirdly, plastics are seen as a precision replication method - however, it is not precise enough for whistles: minute variations of fipple geometry have large affects on sound.
I would like to add that there is one notable exception to this - the Susato company seems to have retained its commitment to the player and retained sufficient quality control - I applaud them .. but their whistles occupy only one of the many sound pallets that a whistler will ultimately seek. And within that, we each find our own favourites.
Regarding the very small differences materials bring to the instrument:
These differences relate to the amount of energy absorbed/transmitted by the material - in which frequencies absorption occurs and in the topology of where these affects occur.
The bore reflectivity is the largest contributor. Harder, more shiny surfaces are more efficient and maintain clearer notes and more responsive performance. This is where a nickel-plated bore helps.
On the other hand, a brass surface is slightly less reflective, slightly softer and will permit a little frequency absorbtion - it sounds a touch "warmer".
Wooden whistles are far more transmissive than plastics or metal. This gives them an added dimension to the sound "locus" beyond the sound-window, but also introduces some randomness in density variation along the length of the bore which can affect performance.
Although extremely slight and very hard to measure, the differences afforded by materials can make a large difference to the appreciation of the player (who has become sensitised through experience).
Does this mean anything to the Audience? Probably not. But I'd argue that the comfort of the player will translate to a better performance that the audience WILL appreciate.
Whistles generally don't cost a lot. If advice is asked - I'd say get a few of different design and material and decide for yourself which is best.
Great, there's many advices here that's help! Right now, i owned Tony Dixon Trad key of D and E in Nickel. Compared with my Feadog brass key of D, these are a lot better. Nickel one is more responsive so i quickly learned Monaghan Jig because i love the sound and the quick response.
I also have Meg Clarke key of C, but i'm not comfortable since the sound is too quiet for me. Good for practicing, but i don't recommend it for small session or in band. That's why i am considering to pick another Tony Dixon key of C in Polymer..... or just buy Generation key of C in Nickel to replace my Meg Clarke
But sigit, your Tony Dixon Trad D & E in nickel aren't better than your Feadóg D in brass BECAUSE they're nickel. They are better because of how they are made, not the material.
One way to show yourself this is to try out a well-made brass whistle, or a cheap nickel whistle. Another way is to try a "tweaked" version of that Feadóg, & my guess is you'd like it much better. "Tweaked" means someone takes an inexpensive, mass-produced whistle & makes modifications to it by hand, so that you end up with characteristics of a high-end whistle. Jerry Freeman is one of the few people who do this. You can read about the differences in the regular & tweaked Feadóg here: http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26919&start=0&hilit=clogging+whistle
@mulcreevy : Honestly, i also tweaked my feadog by myself. I put the clay inside the mouthpiece. The result is that the "squeeky" sound is reduced and off course i made it become a tunable whistle
Well, i just knew that the nickel and brass material is no different, but basically i agree. The mouthpiece design is the one that makes the difference is guess
Al, I think we covered that in a previous thread on flutes. Various people have tried to get trained subjects to distinguish between flutes of various materials, and the subjects were not able to make the distinction reliably.
Try it yourself, though. Go the the music shop and buy a dozen Generations, 6 of each material. Ask a friend to play the same tune on each of them, while you listen and write down which one is which. See if you can beat the spread.
Best part of it is if you buy a dozen, you're bound to get one or two keepers.
Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Hi everyone, i just want to know what is the advantage and disadvantage from Polymer whistles with other materials (Nickel, Brass, Wood)? Wish to have your suggestion. Thank you
# Posted on December 2nd 2011 by sigit
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
There's 1) nickel/brass vs polymer/wood and 2) polymer vs wood.
.
1) They have different wall thicknesses and textures. So the sound is different, you can hear it sometimes, a 'woody' tone. Plus for polymer/wood whistles you can have a conical bore (not the Clarke one) or undercut toneholes.
2) Polymer requires less maintenance
# Posted on December 2nd 2011 by Elvellon
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Polymer is cheaper, usually, easy-maintenance, less prone to humidity and temperature effects, and more or less identical owing to the production methods.
Brass, nickel, and wood are more aesthetically pleasing, but costlier to make, more susceptible to damage, and more likely to be out of tune.
# Posted on December 2nd 2011 by gam
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
What they ^ said...
... but I'll add that in terms of sound, the least favorite whistle in our house is the all-polymer one. No one touches it anymore.
Come to think of it: polymer whistle for sale, cheap!
# Posted on December 2nd 2011 by mulcreevy
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Tin is cheap, easy to maintain, has a nice authentic chiffy sound, and is not prone to problems. I just replaced my good old tin-plated-steel, wooden-fipple Clarke whistle after nearly a decade of use (it finally rusted through from the inside). Its replacement is (no surprise) yet another Clarke.
# Posted on December 3rd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Wow, used to get a lot more comments on threads like this. Guess everyone wandered over to Chiff and Fipple...
# Posted on December 3rd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
OK OK!, I'll make the thread a little longer ;)
Materials make next to no difference in a whistle. What they do is determine the design. The design is what makes all the difference.
Plastics are used for the most stable, repeatable result with the advantage of a wider range of design possiblities. Plastics are also used to provide commercial viability to the production of whistles. But they have a few downsides:
Firstly, there is a high set-up cost .. it is vanishingly rare that any decent instrument maker will gain enough capital for the investment .. so the job gets done by sub-prime designers.
Secondly, the commercialisation further removes the manufacturer from the player - the manufacturer turns exclusively to profit. The result of that is that the plant atrophies - as has been seen with Generation whistles.
Thirdly, plastics are seen as a precision replication method - however, it is not precise enough for whistles: minute variations of fipple geometry have large affects on sound.
I would like to add that there is one notable exception to this - the Susato company seems to have retained its commitment to the player and retained sufficient quality control - I applaud them .. but their whistles occupy only one of the many sound pallets that a whistler will ultimately seek. And within that, we each find our own favourites.
Regarding the very small differences materials bring to the instrument:
These differences relate to the amount of energy absorbed/transmitted by the material - in which frequencies absorption occurs and in the topology of where these affects occur.
The bore reflectivity is the largest contributor. Harder, more shiny surfaces are more efficient and maintain clearer notes and more responsive performance. This is where a nickel-plated bore helps.
On the other hand, a brass surface is slightly less reflective, slightly softer and will permit a little frequency absorbtion - it sounds a touch "warmer".
Wooden whistles are far more transmissive than plastics or metal. This gives them an added dimension to the sound "locus" beyond the sound-window, but also introduces some randomness in density variation along the length of the bore which can affect performance.
Although extremely slight and very hard to measure, the differences afforded by materials can make a large difference to the appreciation of the player (who has become sensitised through experience).
Does this mean anything to the Audience? Probably not. But I'd argue that the comfort of the player will translate to a better performance that the audience WILL appreciate.
Whistles generally don't cost a lot. If advice is asked - I'd say get a few of different design and material and decide for yourself which is best.
# Posted on December 5th 2011 by Mozle
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Great, there's many advices here that's help! Right now, i owned Tony Dixon Trad key of D and E in Nickel. Compared with my Feadog brass key of D, these are a lot better. Nickel one is more responsive so i quickly learned Monaghan Jig because i love the sound and the quick response.
I also have Meg Clarke key of C, but i'm not comfortable since the sound is too quiet for me. Good for practicing, but i don't recommend it for small session or in band. That's why i am considering to pick another Tony Dixon key of C in Polymer..... or just buy Generation key of C in Nickel to replace my Meg Clarke
# Posted on December 5th 2011 by sigit
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
I think Clarke is marketing a bolt-on device to improve the volume on those whistles.
It's called the Meg-o-phone.
# Posted on December 5th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Or maybe they inspired by Transformer movie by inventing it into Meg-a-tron, haha
)
# Posted on December 5th 2011 by sigit
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
But sigit, your Tony Dixon Trad D & E in nickel aren't better than your Feadóg D in brass BECAUSE they're nickel. They are better because of how they are made, not the material.
One way to show yourself this is to try out a well-made brass whistle, or a cheap nickel whistle. Another way is to try a "tweaked" version of that Feadóg, & my guess is you'd like it much better. "Tweaked" means someone takes an inexpensive, mass-produced whistle & makes modifications to it by hand, so that you end up with characteristics of a high-end whistle. Jerry Freeman is one of the few people who do this. You can read about the differences in the regular & tweaked Feadóg here: http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26919&start=0&hilit=clogging+whistle
# Posted on December 5th 2011 by mulcreevy
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
@mulcreevy : Honestly, i also tweaked my feadog by myself. I put the clay inside the mouthpiece. The result is that the "squeeky" sound is reduced and off course i made it become a tunable whistle
Well, i just knew that the nickel and brass material is no different, but basically i agree. The mouthpiece design is the one that makes the difference is guess
# Posted on December 6th 2011 by sigit
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
All other things being equal, I think brass does sound warmer than nickel.
# Posted on December 6th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Al, I think we covered that in a previous thread on flutes. Various people have tried to get trained subjects to distinguish between flutes of various materials, and the subjects were not able to make the distinction reliably.
Try it yourself, though. Go the the music shop and buy a dozen Generations, 6 of each material. Ask a friend to play the same tune on each of them, while you listen and write down which one is which. See if you can beat the spread.
Best part of it is if you buy a dozen, you're bound to get one or two keepers.
# Posted on December 6th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
I don't see any reason why your facts should get in the way of my perfectly good opinion, Jon.
# Posted on December 7th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Polymer vs Nickel/ Brass materials
Nor do I, for that matter.
# Posted on December 7th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky