Hi Dick,
this is kind of eerie but I posted that same quote on another trad site just yesterday! It is so appropriate for beginners like myself. I think competition is important in that it gets youngsters to be the best at what they do but when it becomes elitism then there's a problem. What happens when a young musician reaches the top, e.g. wins an All Ireland? All fine and well until next year when he or she only comes second or third. WIll that person then feel like a failure?
Sure, there are always going to be differing levels of ability, but I'm just a little dubious of any benefits actually accruing from putting labels on levels of natural ability, or the lack of it.
For example, some deluded souls might say that a player like Matt Molloy automatically gives more pleasure to more listeners than someone like say Micho Russell did, or, to put it another way, I think that Trad Music is about a lot more than simply technique.
So, as competitions just look at technique I don't think they can possibly be a useful or helpful guide to talent.
It is true that degrees look at much more, but I just wonder, on balance, what they actually bring of a positive nature to the table & I'd be interested to hear from Trad musicians, with letters after their name, on how their actual musicality benefitted from their Uni experience?
Did they really learn so much more than they could ever have hoped to learn, from simply being in the company of older, more experienced musicians?
Cheers,
Dick
P.S. Just read your reply Pi.
I only read this quote myself for the first time this morning, on another site, but it's funny how a few well chosen words can set you thinking.
I think elitism is not a great thing, appart from the obvious big headedness,
And the Irish anyway are not much good with fame, Best, Higgins example..
But a Derry fiddler friend said to me once, about how you can loose sight of your music. he said
'' Ego is like someone holding a loaded gun to your head,
but you,, are the one pulling the trigger ''
jim,,,
"Not a very good analogy and belies a fundamental miss reading of what bird song is. It's a life and death competition."
I'm not sure if you know fully what bird song is, Mr Gill. If you distinguish song from calls, most of it is thought to be the males showing off to the females (who pick what they consider to be the best), though the exact reason for the dawn chorus is still to be determined (there are educated guesses).
I always wonder about the received wisdom that music competitions are viewed in a disparaging light by many adults but with the added caveat that they're OK for the young.
They're either good or bad, why should it make any difference what age you are. Unless it's got something to do with adult ego?
Is it an analogy ? What is implied is a similie. "If only the best played (or whatever) then it would be like a wood in which only the best birds sang"
I often use analogy to illustrate points. But judging by the general lacking of understanding liberally displayed in this thread, it's no wonder I merely smack my head off a mustard coloured wall.
You shouldn't go past the first level of interpretation when it comes to analogies, once you start analysing them, you're on a downward slope and if you really want to find a flaw in an analogy you will always find it..
It doesn't take a English bridge and an Italian cathedral to realise that.
of course the crime is that the thread now turns into an analyses of the analogy rather that the subject to which the analogy applies (and yes I have just participated in the crime myself)
Oh dear, so yet another thread hijacked by the nitpickers.
I'm inclined to agree with Theirlandais in that, when it comes to analogies, quibbling over semantics does seem just a little petty.
Isn't it funny though, how some folks here even treat a thread here as some sort of competition, each one trying to appear smarter than the next & losing sight of the original idea.
I guess it's little wonder then that so many sessions are spoiled by musicians with self-inflated egos, who are far more interested in strutting their funky stuff, in front of an audience, than simply enjoying the pure pleasure of sharing & promoting good tunes, with like-minded souls.
Those of you who can't spot the difference, should perhaps take a good long look at yourselves in the mirror ... of course, maybe that's the problem, perhaps you do too much of that already!
At the risk of accidentally steering the discussion back to the point, I don't think competition and elitism automatically go hand in hand. I realize most of the posters here find musical competitions to be abhorrent and misguided, however, being involved in these kinds of things can often lead to levels of discipline and focus in the preparation process that would not have been achieved in more casual settings. I'm just simply suggesting that if a person gets a big ego because of it, that's the fault of the individual, not the competition experience. (today's role of Devil's advocate will be played by JNE)
So to ignore the kerfuffle and address the question, I would rather play with a player who listens and enjoys playing, of whatever level of skill. Rather than attending to what I don't like, I'll focus on what's interesting to me: engagement with the players and delight in the music. I've met and played with musicians who could play jaw-dropping stuff on a stage, but in sessions, they would play with the other players, because that's what you do. I've met and played with people who had six tunes to their name, but they knew them and they had the time and they were happy to play the ones they knew and listen to the rest, and they would play with you and have fun doing it.
I'm not much concerned with people who see music as a competition. Beating the other guy seems to me to be a totally uninteresting goal for a musician. But there do seem to be people who have that goal - they're the ones who turn every session into a sporting event. A set of tunes becomes a marathon, or a sprint, or a steeplechase, or sometimes a trivia contest.
And it's boring, and it's sad, but what can you do. It's not their fault, they're desperately afraid that they might actually be nonentities, and this is their way of deal with that. The palpable irony, of course, is that none of the great players have this attitude, and all of their attempts to defeat their competition only point out just how far they are from the great players.
While I see llig's point about bird behavior, I think most of us tend to anthropomorhize our avian friends, and when you do that, the original quote makes some sense.
I did some poking around on the internet about birds, and while I did, I discovered that Ptarmagin has named himself after one of the least musical birds in the world. I have heard recordings of him playing, and think he deserves a better name than that!!!
Myself, I wish some of the noodlers that occasionally show up at sessions would consider the following quote: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of US (1809 - 1865)
I remember one particular year, late winter, as a youth, often teetering home at four or five in the morning, still the middle night really, a few hours from dawn. There was a robin atop every other lamp post singing its heart out. And after few weeks, still four or five in the morning, dawn was closer, but there was a dead robin under every fourth lamp post.
Use the talents you possess, for the woods fall silent if every bird tries to be the best.
I've never liked the idea of music as a competitive endeavour, but I have seen the difference that competitions can make to rousing the interest in young people. I can't say that all these people have ended up seeing music as a competition. I've known whole families who play music, and there has been no competitiveness between them (one fiddler I knew as a young kid has recently won the All-Ireland senior fiddle).
You have to strike a balance between idealism and what actually keeps the music going. I doubt if any of the following players saw or see their music as a competition, but they are all former All-Ireland Fleadh champions:
Felix Doran, Dan O Dowd, Martin Hayes, Cathal Hayden, Bobby Casey, Cathal McConnell, Vincent Broderick,
Micho Russell, Brendan Power, Joe Burke, Seán Ryan, Brendan Begley, Maire Ni Chathasaigh, Maurice Lennon,
Paddy Canny and many other musicians who might be regarded as great players.
"There was a robin atop every other lamp post singing its heart out. And after few weeks, still four or five in the morning, dawn was closer, but there was a dead robin under every fourth lamp post."
Yep, robins sing to mark territory (or so it seems) but I have counted at least a dozen blackbirds singing in the vicinity of our house and not one ended up dead under a lamp post - they all reared young with their mates this summer (and, if the theory is correct, their mates chose them in the 'competition').
Your dozen black birds are not a dozen blackbirds. If the density is as you say then the quality of the territories must be very high. Over the course of a spring you've probably heard at least a hundred mail birds succeeding and failing in establishing a territories.
"Your dozen black birds are not a dozen blackbirds."
Oh really? It's the wrong time of year right now, but I'll record them for you next spring. The songs are distinctive and they are recognisable as the same birds singing each evening (moreover, during each winter, I have at least ten male blackbirds practically feeding from my hand - all recognisable- though not all the same birds each winter - I've also counted nine robins in our front garden at one time - not even fighting) The territory of a blackbird can be less than half an acre (and I live in the country). I know where most of them nest too. It is not believed that their song is to mark territory in the same way as a robin (they don't sing in late autumn like robins) but more to impress the girls.
Mr Gill, I'll also add that I'm referring to the regulars, not the whippersnapper blackbirds who try it on at the start of the blackbird fleadh season.
I like the analogies; especially, "Use the talents you possess, for the woods fall silent if every bird tries to be the best." There is no tries, only dose.
But back to the Op ~ competition can be a good thing. The suggestion that competition is elitist (& dreadful), there's the leap.
Well ... I envy your locality and your leisure time. To know personally the songs of at least a dozen blackbirds across the six acres of your patch. And to distinguish those from the many spring interlopers.
For the past few years I’ve enjoyed a dunnock nesting in my front garden hedge - three feet from my front room, one foot from the busy road ... there’s no way I could say it was the same dunnocks though, even though an individual dunnock’s song is very distinctive.
Aye, it's a bit more attractive to the birdies than some parts of Edinburgh - but I've earned a few pennies from my photies of them too. You do get to pick up certain nuances of each bird's sean-nós interpretation. We had a starling who could whistle like the local postie. Great that was, until the sparrowhawk had him for afternoon tea.
The point is that, even with what little is known for sure about birdsong, it's not all to do with bumping off each other.
If a whale's only communication system is song and he's trying to tell his young the do's and don't of the world and some EEGIT keeps brazing through with a submarine blazing techno so loud that the pod becomes lost. Then yes, the submarine has won.
Weejie, you gave us a long list of competition champions.
I'd like to ask you about your phrase - "other musicians who might be regarded as great players." Do you mean that you only regard competition winners as being capable of being great players?
If so, I'd just like to say that I am very, very lucky up here, because I regularly get the chance to play with two of the finest musicians in the North, neither of whom has ever been anywhere near a competition.
As well as being top class musicians & multi-instrumentalists, I honestly don't know any other musicians who have as many tunes on the tips of their fingers, as these guys have.
I've been to a few sessions over the years which involved A.I.C.s & the order of the day has far too often been to play as many Reels as possible, the harder the better, as fast as possible, with a side order of the odd Jig. As a result, they were very boring & I just wonder if this notion of always going for the fast, show-off tune has been instilled in them, by years of hunting for hard tunes to beat other musicians with.
To me, choosing Reels all the time, with the odd Jig, is a bit like living on just Steak every day, with the odd piece of chicken, or having paintings on your wall which are only made up of primary colours! Think about it, what a sad, sad existence that would be.
These guys I play with, on the other hand, aren't out to show off, they just love playing good melodies, so at any session involving them, you can almost guarantee that every single dance rhythm will be covered during the course of the evening, plus a few Planxties & the odd air thrown in, for good measure ... in other words - a healthy diet!
I sometimes imagine that competition players see their tunes only in terms of how many opportunities they provide to show off all their technique, while non-competition orientated musicians just hear lovely melodies.
I'm sure other members here can think of many fine, legendary & influential players who were never anywhere near competitions. That being the case, it is clear that we don't actually need competitions to produce great musicians, for naturally talented players will always excel.
"I'd like to ask you about your phrase - "other musicians who might be regarded as great players." Do you mean that you only regard competition winners as being capable of being great players?"
No, of course not. That was taken entirely out of context. The point was that there are more names of competition winners who could be put on the list and they could also be regarded as great players. In other words, taking part in competitions doesn't detract from your standing as a great player. This does not mean that only those taking part in competitions are great players. It was a response to those who seemed to suggest that great players don't take part in competitions.
I'm sorry that you made such an effort to respond to your own misinterpretation.
"It was a response to those who seemed to suggest that great players don't take part in competitions."
Two comments on this.
One, my comment at least was pointing out that there are a lot of contest winners and flash players who are not great players, and there is little correlation between the two. You can be a great player, and you can be a competition player, but for some reason a lot of not-very-great players dearly love to win competitions.
Two, I think there may be an Atlantic split here. Taking part in competitions seems to have a different meaning for people on the leftern shore. Over here, it seems to be more of a badge of authenticity, a sort of ratification of one's playing, where perhaps in other parts of the world it is, or can be, just another way to play and indulge in the tunes. The joke, again, is that the ratification is neither necessary nor sufficient for the purpose it's meant to serve. Over here, if what I hear about someone is that they've won contests, I'm likely to assume that's what they're interested in - and not that they're a good player in any interesting sense.
That's probably because over here a lot of people play the music as a sort of heritage trophy. They play the music to recover (or to take on) an identity that they otherwise feel they're lacking, and not because it's just what they like to do.
O.K. you have my interest. So, there are alot of contest winners . . . Yeah, I know, I'm taking it out of context. Any estimate as to what percentage (of alot) are obnoxious, self-absorbed session hogs? Apparently it's too many to count. Or, these elitist contest winners are few, but so arrogant that they are leaving a wide swath of session devestation of olympic proportions.
"there are a lot of contest winners and flash players who are not great players,"
It does depend on what you mean by 'great' - the term can be subjective.
"and there is little correlation between the two."
That I will agree with.
"but for some reason a lot of not-very-great players dearly love to win competitions. "
That might need some evidence to back it up.
I'm not sure of the motives behind the "great" players entering the competitions in the first place. I mean did the likes of Felix Doran or Martin Hayes enter the competition to prove something? Was it a case of doing it for a laugh? Was it for the girls? To kill robins?
I think, though, that you're getting too hung up on the contest side of things. It's the "music as sport" aspect, in general, that I was highlighting in my first post in this thread, not partilcularly formal competitions. Competitions are only a part of it.
Well, yes, I can see that there are some who see it as a sport, but I concentrated on the competition side of things because that is highlighted by Dick in the OP.
I reckon Competitions & Music as Sport are all part of the same problem really, aren't they?
After all, I imagine that competitions probably have a large part to play in instilling that dueling aspect, that can spoil some sessions & just encourages players to treat their sessions as competitions.
Dick, I can only speak of my experience playing with three musicians who have competed musically & won contests. Each one of them is a pleasure to play music with, and not one of them has brought competition into the sessions we've played together.
Those in favour of competition, might enjoy this article, written by American Alfie Kohn, who was .... "described in Time magazine as "perhaps the country's most outspoken critic of education's fixation on grades [and] test scores.""
Perhaps you should think about how this appears, Dick - it does look as though you are using your placement in the All Ireland as a credential:
"As a former member of Comhaltas, I entered the annual national music competitions & gained a 2nd prize medal at the All Ireland Fleadh & I was also awarded my T T C T, Traditional Music Teaching Diploma with Comhlatas."
au contraire Weejie, I confess my involvement to indicate that I have some first hand knowledge of how they operate, which I feel helps any criticism I may display, to carry a little more weight.
For example, there's a bloke up here who says he hates Curry, but the fact is, he's never actually ever tasted it, he just doesn't like the idea of it.
Surely, criticism is a little more valid, if it comes from actual experience?
The fact of the matter is, I was the ONLY Concertina player from Ulster, to enter in the over 18's that year, so I got a free pass to the final & there were only 3 entrants that day.
When you also learn that the 18 year old who was placed third, was suffering from a dreadful cold that day, it puts my 2nd place into perspective.
However, she was still the only person I beat on my way to my 2nd place medal, which of course means that it is absolutely nothing to brag about.
Mind you, that story does show very well, how a very mediocre player can end up with one of these, treasured by some, All Ireland Medals & really does emphasise the fact that they are absolutely no guarantee of the quality of musicianship, that the bearer possesses.
My point was, Dick, is the way those words were presented. There was nothing to explain your medal in the fleadh, and your mention of it was in the same paragraph as your mention of your teaching diploma. Your thoughts on competitions are becoming quite clear in this thread, so perhaps the wording in the summary of your background could be seen as misleading. Hence my drawing attention to the matter.
Weejie, I used to have a rather long-winded summary but, like many folks here, I reduced it to a few snippets & links, which folks can then explore, if they are really interested.
As for the Teaching Diploma, in case you aren't aware, that takes you a whole 5 days to earn, so we're not talking rocket science here.
"5 days to earn" - Maybe so, Dick, but how many years learning and practice beforehand ?
And I was there when you were in the All-Ireland, remember ? You played fine. Mind you, you wouldn't have done so well in the "Under-18s", as I recall . The names Padraig Rynne and Ciaran O'Grady spring to mind.
While you're here, I'm going to post Begley's polka over in the Tunes section. Can you remember the names he gave for them ?
Sorry Kenny, I've just checked through all my recordings & I'm afraid I didn't catch the names of those Polkas.
Did you ask Genny, Ron or John?
As for the Under-18s competition, I'd certainly have ended up in the also ran category ... & anyway, I think my Beard, Bald Head & Pot Belly, might just have given my age away!
I mind Jim Daily winning a chanter at the fleadh in Bearsden sometime back in the 90s. As far as I recall, the only other competitor was James O'Grady, whose reeds gave up on him during his set. Jim played well, but he needn't have tried too hard - it was there for the taking!
Yes, Ptarmigan, sometimes a few well chosen words can do some very interesting things to your brain besides making you think that you should respond to some of the comments which people post on this web site.
My musicality did benefit from being a music major in college and I also learned a lot from participating in a jam session with some older and more expericenced musicians after I graduated from college. I think my music degree did help me to understand the music better and its underlying foundations and rhythms. Accompanying voice majors during their lessons helped improve my skills as a backup musician.
I am a non-entity and I like being one. The only person whom I try to compete with and "beat" is my earlier self because I am trying to improve the quality of my playing and become a better and more skilled musician. Instead of making the same mistakes I made earlier, I try to make new and different mistakes.
Yes I think criticism is valid if it comes from actual, hands-on experience.
If we aren't talking rocket science, should we try talking about rocket surgery instead?
Can TheSilverSpear see the literary through the littoral?
And here I thought it was the Cylons on BattleStar Galactica who were golden.
Well said Henry!
Well said Henry!
"Use the talents you possess, for the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except the best." - Henry Van Dyke.
What a wonderful sentiment & perhaps the perfect antidote to that ugly philosophy of elitism, promoted by those dreadful music competitions?
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
Surely the Trad. Music Degrees have actually taken elitism in Trad music to a new level?
So what do you think, is elitism good or bad for Trad?
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
But aren't the "elite" just "using the talents they possess" ?
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Kenny
Re: Well said Henry!
Hi Dick,
this is kind of eerie but I posted that same quote on another trad site just yesterday! It is so appropriate for beginners like myself. I think competition is important in that it gets youngsters to be the best at what they do but when it becomes elitism then there's a problem. What happens when a young musician reaches the top, e.g. wins an All Ireland? All fine and well until next year when he or she only comes second or third. WIll that person then feel like a failure?
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Pi
Re: Well said Henry!
Sure, there are always going to be differing levels of ability, but I'm just a little dubious of any benefits actually accruing from putting labels on levels of natural ability, or the lack of it.
For example, some deluded souls might say that a player like Matt Molloy automatically gives more pleasure to more listeners than someone like say Micho Russell did, or, to put it another way, I think that Trad Music is about a lot more than simply technique.
So, as competitions just look at technique I don't think they can possibly be a useful or helpful guide to talent.
It is true that degrees look at much more, but I just wonder, on balance, what they actually bring of a positive nature to the table & I'd be interested to hear from Trad musicians, with letters after their name, on how their actual musicality benefitted from their Uni experience?
Did they really learn so much more than they could ever have hoped to learn, from simply being in the company of older, more experienced musicians?
Cheers,
Dick
P.S. Just read your reply Pi.
I only read this quote myself for the first time this morning, on another site, but it's funny how a few well chosen words can set you thinking.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
I think elitism is not a great thing, appart from the obvious big headedness,
And the Irish anyway are not much good with fame, Best, Higgins example..
But a Derry fiddler friend said to me once, about how you can loose sight of your music. he said
'' Ego is like someone holding a loaded gun to your head,
but you,, are the one pulling the trigger ''
jim,,,
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by FIDDLE4
Re: Well said Henry!
Not a very good analogy and belies a fundamental miss reading of what bird song is. It's a life and death competition.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by ...
Re: Well said Henry!
"Not a very good analogy and belies a fundamental miss reading of what bird song is. It's a life and death competition."
I'm not sure if you know fully what bird song is, Mr Gill. If you distinguish song from calls, most of it is thought to be the males showing off to the females (who pick what they consider to be the best), though the exact reason for the dawn chorus is still to be determined (there are educated guesses).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/articles/2008/04/03/dawn_chorus_birdsong_feature.shtml
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
sometimes: "silence is golden"
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Well said Henry!
" It's a life and death competition." -- just like your local dance hall then (Or the current equivalent thereof).
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by gam
Re: Well said Henry!
I always wonder about the received wisdom that music competitions are viewed in a disparaging light by many adults but with the added caveat that they're OK for the young.
They're either good or bad, why should it make any difference what age you are. Unless it's got something to do with adult ego?
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: Well said Henry!
Is it an analogy ? What is implied is a similie. "If only the best played (or whatever) then it would be like a wood in which only the best birds sang"
I like it.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by David50
Re: Well said Henry!
It is a very good analogy. If only the best played no one would play as you couldn't know who the best was.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Bernie
Re: Well said Henry!
I often use analogy to illustrate points. But judging by the general lacking of understanding liberally displayed in this thread, it's no wonder I merely smack my head off a mustard coloured wall.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by ...
Re: Well said Henry!
You shouldn't go past the first level of interpretation when it comes to analogies, once you start analysing them, you're on a downward slope and if you really want to find a flaw in an analogy you will always find it..
It doesn't take a English bridge and an Italian cathedral to realise that.
of course the crime is that the thread now turns into an analyses of the analogy rather that the subject to which the analogy applies (and yes I have just participated in the crime myself)
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Well said Henry!
Mr. Van Dyke's proposition is also ample justification for the continued existence of the TV "talent" show and karaoke.
It might be seen as a wonderful sentiment, but that doesn't make it an especially wise one.
Learn to enjoy the peace of silence!
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Jerry O'Donnell
Re: Well said Henry!
Tricky to find the context for that quote, but he is also quoted as saying "Culture is the habit of being pleased with the best and knowing why.”
Oh, I see llig, you didn't mean Henry van Dyck's analogy/simile or whatever.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by David50
Re: Well said Henry!
I think some denizens of this website prefer can't see the literary through the literal.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Well said Henry!
Oh dear, so yet another thread hijacked by the nitpickers.
I'm inclined to agree with Theirlandais in that, when it comes to analogies, quibbling over semantics does seem just a little petty.
Isn't it funny though, how some folks here even treat a thread here as some sort of competition, each one trying to appear smarter than the next & losing sight of the original idea.
I guess it's little wonder then that so many sessions are spoiled by musicians with self-inflated egos, who are far more interested in strutting their funky stuff, in front of an audience, than simply enjoying the pure pleasure of sharing & promoting good tunes, with like-minded souls.
Those of you who can't spot the difference, should perhaps take a good long look at yourselves in the mirror ... of course, maybe that's the problem, perhaps you do too much of that already!
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
Oh, please Dick. You made the leap with your reference to competition & elitism.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Well said Henry!
em ... er ... competition & elitism were actually part of the original question Babs, not a leap, or were you expecting a thread on birdsong?
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
At the risk of accidentally steering the discussion back to the point, I don't think competition and elitism automatically go hand in hand. I realize most of the posters here find musical competitions to be abhorrent and misguided, however, being involved in these kinds of things can often lead to levels of discipline and focus in the preparation process that would not have been achieved in more casual settings. I'm just simply suggesting that if a person gets a big ego because of it, that's the fault of the individual, not the competition experience. (today's role of Devil's advocate will be played by JNE)
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Well said Henry!
So to ignore the kerfuffle and address the question, I would rather play with a player who listens and enjoys playing, of whatever level of skill. Rather than attending to what I don't like, I'll focus on what's interesting to me: engagement with the players and delight in the music. I've met and played with musicians who could play jaw-dropping stuff on a stage, but in sessions, they would play with the other players, because that's what you do. I've met and played with people who had six tunes to their name, but they knew them and they had the time and they were happy to play the ones they knew and listen to the rest, and they would play with you and have fun doing it.
I'm not much concerned with people who see music as a competition. Beating the other guy seems to me to be a totally uninteresting goal for a musician. But there do seem to be people who have that goal - they're the ones who turn every session into a sporting event. A set of tunes becomes a marathon, or a sprint, or a steeplechase, or sometimes a trivia contest.
And it's boring, and it's sad, but what can you do. It's not their fault, they're desperately afraid that they might actually be nonentities, and this is their way of deal with that. The palpable irony, of course, is that none of the great players have this attitude, and all of their attempts to defeat their competition only point out just how far they are from the great players.
# Posted on November 21st 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Well said Henry!
I think that's a very good summing up of it Jon.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Well said Jon!
....... & thanks for actually addressing the topic.
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
While I see llig's point about bird behavior, I think most of us tend to anthropomorhize our avian friends, and when you do that, the original quote makes some sense.
I did some poking around on the internet about birds, and while I did, I discovered that Ptarmagin has named himself after one of the least musical birds in the world. I have heard recordings of him playing, and think he deserves a better name than that!!!
Myself, I wish some of the noodlers that occasionally show up at sessions would consider the following quote: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of US (1809 - 1865)
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Well said Henry!
I remember one particular year, late winter, as a youth, often teetering home at four or five in the morning, still the middle night really, a few hours from dawn. There was a robin atop every other lamp post singing its heart out. And after few weeks, still four or five in the morning, dawn was closer, but there was a dead robin under every fourth lamp post.
Use the talents you possess, for the woods fall silent if every bird tries to be the best.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Well said Henry!
I've never liked the idea of music as a competitive endeavour, but I have seen the difference that competitions can make to rousing the interest in young people. I can't say that all these people have ended up seeing music as a competition. I've known whole families who play music, and there has been no competitiveness between them (one fiddler I knew as a young kid has recently won the All-Ireland senior fiddle).
You have to strike a balance between idealism and what actually keeps the music going. I doubt if any of the following players saw or see their music as a competition, but they are all former All-Ireland Fleadh champions:
Felix Doran, Dan O Dowd, Martin Hayes, Cathal Hayden, Bobby Casey, Cathal McConnell, Vincent Broderick,
Micho Russell, Brendan Power, Joe Burke, Seán Ryan, Brendan Begley, Maire Ni Chathasaigh, Maurice Lennon,
Paddy Canny and many other musicians who might be regarded as great players.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
"There was a robin atop every other lamp post singing its heart out. And after few weeks, still four or five in the morning, dawn was closer, but there was a dead robin under every fourth lamp post."
Yep, robins sing to mark territory (or so it seems) but I have counted at least a dozen blackbirds singing in the vicinity of our house and not one ended up dead under a lamp post - they all reared young with their mates this summer (and, if the theory is correct, their mates chose them in the 'competition').
What was that about analogies?
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
Your dozen black birds are not a dozen blackbirds. If the density is as you say then the quality of the territories must be very high. Over the course of a spring you've probably heard at least a hundred mail birds succeeding and failing in establishing a territories.
Is that what you want down your friendly session?
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Well said Henry!
"Your dozen black birds are not a dozen blackbirds."
Oh really? It's the wrong time of year right now, but I'll record them for you next spring. The songs are distinctive and they are recognisable as the same birds singing each evening (moreover, during each winter, I have at least ten male blackbirds practically feeding from my hand - all recognisable- though not all the same birds each winter - I've also counted nine robins in our front garden at one time - not even fighting) The territory of a blackbird can be less than half an acre (and I live in the country). I know where most of them nest too. It is not believed that their song is to mark territory in the same way as a robin (they don't sing in late autumn like robins) but more to impress the girls.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
Are blackbirds more or less territorial than trad musicians in a session? Discuss.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Well said Henry!
Is Mr Gill a blackbird or a robin?
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
Mr Gill, I'll also add that I'm referring to the regulars, not the whippersnapper blackbirds who try it on at the start of the blackbird fleadh season.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
Neither, Weejie, I would say bluejay!
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Well said Henry!
I like the analogies; especially, "Use the talents you possess, for the woods fall silent if every bird tries to be the best." There is no tries, only dose.
But back to the Op ~ competition can be a good thing. The suggestion that competition is elitist (& dreadful), there's the leap.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Well said Henry!
Well ... I envy your locality and your leisure time. To know personally the songs of at least a dozen blackbirds across the six acres of your patch. And to distinguish those from the many spring interlopers.
For the past few years I’ve enjoyed a dunnock nesting in my front garden hedge - three feet from my front room, one foot from the busy road ... there’s no way I could say it was the same dunnocks though, even though an individual dunnock’s song is very distinctive.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by ...
Re: Well said Henry!
" I envy your locality and your leisure time."
Aye, it's a bit more attractive to the birdies than some parts of Edinburgh - but I've earned a few pennies from my photies of them too. You do get to pick up certain nuances of each bird's sean-nós interpretation. We had a starling who could whistle like the local postie. Great that was, until the sparrowhawk had him for afternoon tea.
The point is that, even with what little is known for sure about birdsong, it's not all to do with bumping off each other.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
If a whale's only communication system is song and he's trying to tell his young the do's and don't of the world and some EEGIT keeps brazing through with a submarine blazing techno so loud that the pod becomes lost. Then yes, the submarine has won.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by kook
Re: Well said Henry!
On BBC radio 3 this evening...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017cjqw
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by biggus dave
Re: Well said Henry!
Weejie, you gave us a long list of competition champions.
I'd like to ask you about your phrase - "other musicians who might be regarded as great players." Do you mean that you only regard competition winners as being capable of being great players?
If so, I'd just like to say that I am very, very lucky up here, because I regularly get the chance to play with two of the finest musicians in the North, neither of whom has ever been anywhere near a competition.
As well as being top class musicians & multi-instrumentalists, I honestly don't know any other musicians who have as many tunes on the tips of their fingers, as these guys have.
I've been to a few sessions over the years which involved A.I.C.s & the order of the day has far too often been to play as many Reels as possible, the harder the better, as fast as possible, with a side order of the odd Jig. As a result, they were very boring & I just wonder if this notion of always going for the fast, show-off tune has been instilled in them, by years of hunting for hard tunes to beat other musicians with.
To me, choosing Reels all the time, with the odd Jig, is a bit like living on just Steak every day, with the odd piece of chicken, or having paintings on your wall which are only made up of primary colours! Think about it, what a sad, sad existence that would be.
These guys I play with, on the other hand, aren't out to show off, they just love playing good melodies, so at any session involving them, you can almost guarantee that every single dance rhythm will be covered during the course of the evening, plus a few Planxties & the odd air thrown in, for good measure ... in other words - a healthy diet!
I sometimes imagine that competition players see their tunes only in terms of how many opportunities they provide to show off all their technique, while non-competition orientated musicians just hear lovely melodies.
I'm sure other members here can think of many fine, legendary & influential players who were never anywhere near competitions. That being the case, it is clear that we don't actually need competitions to produce great musicians, for naturally talented players will always excel.
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
"I'd like to ask you about your phrase - "other musicians who might be regarded as great players." Do you mean that you only regard competition winners as being capable of being great players?"
No, of course not. That was taken entirely out of context. The point was that there are more names of competition winners who could be put on the list and they could also be regarded as great players. In other words, taking part in competitions doesn't detract from your standing as a great player. This does not mean that only those taking part in competitions are great players. It was a response to those who seemed to suggest that great players don't take part in competitions.
I'm sorry that you made such an effort to respond to your own misinterpretation.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
Good, I'm glad we've cleared that point up then.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
"It was a response to those who seemed to suggest that great players don't take part in competitions."
Two comments on this.
One, my comment at least was pointing out that there are a lot of contest winners and flash players who are not great players, and there is little correlation between the two. You can be a great player, and you can be a competition player, but for some reason a lot of not-very-great players dearly love to win competitions.
Two, I think there may be an Atlantic split here. Taking part in competitions seems to have a different meaning for people on the leftern shore. Over here, it seems to be more of a badge of authenticity, a sort of ratification of one's playing, where perhaps in other parts of the world it is, or can be, just another way to play and indulge in the tunes. The joke, again, is that the ratification is neither necessary nor sufficient for the purpose it's meant to serve. Over here, if what I hear about someone is that they've won contests, I'm likely to assume that's what they're interested in - and not that they're a good player in any interesting sense.
That's probably because over here a lot of people play the music as a sort of heritage trophy. They play the music to recover (or to take on) an identity that they otherwise feel they're lacking, and not because it's just what they like to do.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Henry!
O.K. you have my interest. So, there are alot of contest winners . . . Yeah, I know, I'm taking it out of context. Any estimate as to what percentage (of alot) are obnoxious, self-absorbed session hogs? Apparently it's too many to count. Or, these elitist contest winners are few, but so arrogant that they are leaving a wide swath of session devestation of olympic proportions.
# Posted on November 22nd 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
For anyone keeping score;
I'm 2 for 2.
< devastation >
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Well said Henry!
"there are a lot of contest winners and flash players who are not great players,"
It does depend on what you mean by 'great' - the term can be subjective.
"and there is little correlation between the two."
That I will agree with.
"but for some reason a lot of not-very-great players dearly love to win competitions. "
That might need some evidence to back it up.
I'm not sure of the motives behind the "great" players entering the competitions in the first place. I mean did the likes of Felix Doran or Martin Hayes enter the competition to prove something? Was it a case of doing it for a laugh? Was it for the girls? To kill robins?
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
"That might need some evidence to back it up."
Come and visit for a while some time.
I think, though, that you're getting too hung up on the contest side of things. It's the "music as sport" aspect, in general, that I was highlighting in my first post in this thread, not partilcularly formal competitions. Competitions are only a part of it.
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Well said Henry!
Well, yes, I can see that there are some who see it as a sport, but I concentrated on the competition side of things because that is highlighted by Dick in the OP.
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
I reckon Competitions & Music as Sport are all part of the same problem really, aren't they?
After all, I imagine that competitions probably have a large part to play in instilling that dueling aspect, that can spoil some sessions & just encourages players to treat their sessions as competitions.
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
Dick, I can only speak of my experience playing with three musicians who have competed musically & won contests. Each one of them is a pleasure to play music with, and not one of them has brought competition into the sessions we've played together.
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
. . .
I will say one of them, if not all three, seemed happy to not be competing in those sessions..
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Well said Henry
Ah, my beloved, do you feel with me
The hidden virtue of that melody,
The rapture and the purity of love,
The heavenly joy that can not find the word?
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Well said Henry!
Nope. Can't say that I do. It's not your old heartburn again is it, dear?
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by ethical blend
Well said eb!
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Well said Henry!
Those in favour of competition, might enjoy this article, written by American Alfie Kohn, who was .... "described in Time magazine as "perhaps the country's most outspoken critic of education's fixation on grades [and] test scores.""
The Case Against Competition:
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/tcac.htm
I especially enjoyed the section entitled: Competition is a recipe for hostility.
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 23rd 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
That's an interesting article. Is there some good in band competitions, for which individuals need to co-operate ?
# Posted on November 24th 2011 by David50
Re: Well said Henry!
Perhaps you should think about how this appears, Dick - it does look as though you are using your placement in the All Ireland as a credential:
"As a former member of Comhaltas, I entered the annual national music competitions & gained a 2nd prize medal at the All Ireland Fleadh & I was also awarded my T T C T, Traditional Music Teaching Diploma with Comhlatas."
http://www.dickglasgow.info/
# Posted on November 24th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
au contraire Weejie, I confess my involvement to indicate that I have some first hand knowledge of how they operate, which I feel helps any criticism I may display, to carry a little more weight.
For example, there's a bloke up here who says he hates Curry, but the fact is, he's never actually ever tasted it, he just doesn't like the idea of it.
Surely, criticism is a little more valid, if it comes from actual experience?
The fact of the matter is, I was the ONLY Concertina player from Ulster, to enter in the over 18's that year, so I got a free pass to the final & there were only 3 entrants that day.
When you also learn that the 18 year old who was placed third, was suffering from a dreadful cold that day, it puts my 2nd place into perspective.
However, she was still the only person I beat on my way to my 2nd place medal, which of course means that it is absolutely nothing to brag about.
Mind you, that story does show very well, how a very mediocre player can end up with one of these, treasured by some, All Ireland Medals & really does emphasise the fact that they are absolutely no guarantee of the quality of musicianship, that the bearer possesses.
So thanks Weejie for bringing this up.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on November 24th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
My point was, Dick, is the way those words were presented. There was nothing to explain your medal in the fleadh, and your mention of it was in the same paragraph as your mention of your teaching diploma. Your thoughts on competitions are becoming quite clear in this thread, so perhaps the wording in the summary of your background could be seen as misleading. Hence my drawing attention to the matter.
# Posted on November 24th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
Weejie, I used to have a rather long-winded summary but, like many folks here, I reduced it to a few snippets & links, which folks can then explore, if they are really interested.
As for the Teaching Diploma, in case you aren't aware, that takes you a whole 5 days to earn, so we're not talking rocket science here.
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 24th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
"5 days to earn" - Maybe so, Dick, but how many years learning and practice beforehand ?
. The names Padraig Rynne and Ciaran O'Grady spring to mind.
And I was there when you were in the All-Ireland, remember ? You played fine. Mind you, you wouldn't have done so well in the "Under-18s", as I recall
While you're here, I'm going to post Begley's polka over in the Tunes section. Can you remember the names he gave for them ?
# Posted on November 24th 2011 by Kenny
Re: Well said Henry!
Sorry Kenny, I've just checked through all my recordings & I'm afraid I didn't catch the names of those Polkas.
Did you ask Genny, Ron or John?
As for the Under-18s competition, I'd certainly have ended up in the also ran category ... & anyway, I think my Beard, Bald Head & Pot Belly, might just have given my age away!
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 24th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: Well said Henry!
I mind Jim Daily winning a chanter at the fleadh in Bearsden sometime back in the 90s. As far as I recall, the only other competitor was James O'Grady, whose reeds gave up on him during his set. Jim played well, but he needn't have tried too hard - it was there for the taking!
# Posted on November 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
BTW, anyone know what's happening with Jim Daily? His site has been down for several weeks now.
# Posted on November 25th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Well said Henry!
Hi Kenny & Dick - I'll try to have a listen back to the workshop recordings next week, and let you know re names if I find any.
# Posted on November 25th 2011 by On Sabbatical
Re: Well said Henry!
Sometimes he appears at our session. Haven't seen him in seven or eight months. At least.
# Posted on November 25th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Well said Henry!
Yes, Ptarmigan, sometimes a few well chosen words can do some very interesting things to your brain besides making you think that you should respond to some of the comments which people post on this web site.
My musicality did benefit from being a music major in college and I also learned a lot from participating in a jam session with some older and more expericenced musicians after I graduated from college. I think my music degree did help me to understand the music better and its underlying foundations and rhythms. Accompanying voice majors during their lessons helped improve my skills as a backup musician.
I am a non-entity and I like being one. The only person whom I try to compete with and "beat" is my earlier self because I am trying to improve the quality of my playing and become a better and more skilled musician. Instead of making the same mistakes I made earlier, I try to make new and different mistakes.
Yes I think criticism is valid if it comes from actual, hands-on experience.
If we aren't talking rocket science, should we try talking about rocket surgery instead?
Can TheSilverSpear see the literary through the littoral?
And here I thought it was the Cylons on BattleStar Galactica who were golden.
Laurence
# Posted on December 1st 2011 by fauxcelt