I'm thinking of getting an Olwell blackwood D without the slide, does anyone have experience with that instrument,?Is it tunable enough for most sessions ? Thanks all
Many people think that Patrick Olwell makes the finest flutes on the planet. I'd say go for it! Also, his waiting list is now at 10 years, last I heard.
The wait for a keyless Olwell will likely be on the order of 12 to 18 months (mine was 18, back in 2003). My 6-key D came almost 7 years after ordering. I wouldn't worry about the slideless flute. Anything Patrick makes will be session ready. These are fantastic flutes. Good choice.
But why not get a slide? They really are useful, especially when you have to play with people who might be quite a long way out themselves, or maybe your blowing style is particularly high or low? We are talking about a flute of the top quality here and the lack of a slide would bother me if I was ordering it.
"We are talking about a flute of the top quality here and the lack of a slide would bother me if I was ordering it."
Second that. To me it would be like ordering a top of the line BMW with budget upholstery and no AC. Surely it will get the job done, but for own peace of mind, not to mention resale value should you ever want a keyed one, tuning slide is the way to go.
You don't absolutely need a slide if the flute is made properly to begin with. An experienced player can tune by adjusting his embouchure to compensate for players being out of tune. Recognizing tuning issues in your own playing -- and in your own flute -- and compensating for this will make you a better player. I have an unlined Doyle and two unlined Olwells. They are great flutes. I also have flutes with tuning slides. The choice of what flute I will play doesn't depend on tuning issues but rather on the sound I want. The flute without the tuning slide seems to have a darker, thicker tone. With the slide the tone is cleaner and bit more focused.
You will also save some money and get the flute sooner than if you ordered a flute with a slide. Go for the Olwell, with or without the tuning slide.
People blow differently. I for example play at 440Hz with the tuning slide pulled out about a quarter of an inch more than one of my friends does on any flute that we have ever both tried.
I own a Casey Burns folk flute without a slide and I can (and do) indeed play it at 440Hz with the top joint pulled out about a 1/4 inch. However there is no denying that this extension would be a lot more mechanically stable with a tuning slide.
I seriously recommend a tuning slide on a serious flute like this. A different matter perhaps on a (very) tight budget or when looking for a "second" flute, or... However, an Olwell will probably be your main instrument of choice as long as you have it and it is worth getting it right.
It is so miserable when there's a another flute player out of tune with the session. One can console oneself that the problem is the other person's but it doesn't make it easier to play against. Then the offender pronounces that their flute doesn't have a slide and it was made it tune!!!!!!!!!
It's true that an experienced/sensitive/non-deaf player without a tuning slide can compensate to some degree by adjusting embouchure (and adjusting over the course of a session is essential) but they are rare indeed and a decent range of adjustment is necessary to cope with the range of other instruments and playing conditions encountered. The problem with adjusting embouchure is that anything more than a small variation from 'normal' results in non-optimal response.
"I have an unlined Doyle and two unlined Olwells. They are great flutes. I also have flutes with tuning slides."
My Murray has an unlined head *but* also tuning slide.
Unlined/lined heads and tuning slides are two different things, mind!
Olwell will make you a flute with any combination of unlined head/tuning slide you'd like, according to the "catalogue" he sent me a while back.
"It's true that an experienced/sensitive/non-deaf player without a tuning slide can compensate to some degree by adjusting embouchure... ... but they are rare indeed" (skerries). Is that true ?
I know that an inexperienced player( me) can play way out of tune in either direction without any help from a tuning slide. Also that is not too difficult for an inexperienced player (me) to play deliberately sharp or flat by adjusting the amount of coverage of the blow-hole.
Sorry, to continue. My experience is that flute players (including me) can be out of tune at a session simply because they can't hear properly. Sure a slide is handy. If I play a few tunes in a cold room then have a conversation for ten minutes I may tweak the slide when I start again, but that's for comfort and tone until it warms up.
You seem to be well on the way to becoming one of those rare players!
There's no doubt that it's easy to vary the tuning quite widely as a person plays but the key word in the sentence was 'compensate', i.e. to use the ability to vary the tuning to useful effect - that's very rare.
I've been hearing about Olwell's alot lately. I've only tried one and was not particularly impressed, which is not to say it wasn't good, but I'd absolutely positively NEVER get on a waiting list of longer than a year to get one. There seems to be a lot of snob appeal about some flutes that I consider downright laughable. My advice is to not get caught up in it. Play some flutes. Find one you like. Buy it.
And let me add one other opinion: Get a lined head and slide. Pointless to buy a flute without both if you want to play sessions. I know the point can be argued, but that's my advice.
Ailin: I'm weary of fully lined heads, most because all but one flute with cracked headjoints i've personally seen have been lined..
There seems to be general agreement that there is a slight difference in tone/sound between lined and unlined heads, everything else being equal, personally i'd rather have a unlined headjoint (and a tuning slide) but to each their own.
I understand the concern about cracking and can offer no rebuttal. In my own case, my flute was made in 1882 and had a hairline crack in the head that did not affect the playability (due to the metal lining), but was repaired because I was having some other work done. The barrel has never been cracked. I would say the difference of having a lined head is more than slight, but as you say, to each his own.
One additional thought I'll add on this subject: If you accept my original advice, you will in time have sampled flutes belonging to players you meet. If you find a flute that is demonstrably superior to your own, then would be time to invest money and a long wait to get it. You'll know for sure the wait is worth it and you'll have an acceptable instrument to play in the meantime. Any other approach seems to me to be a gamble at best and foolhardy at worst.
Lined/unlined is a completely different issue to tuning slide or not.
Tuning slides help to make it easier to deal with a common problem for flute players, i.e playing in tune with other players in a session. You still primarily need your ears and you can compensate within limits by pulling out the top joint of a slideless flute, but it is a weakness. Blowing in tune should be reserved for getting the individual notes in the right place in the scale, not for shifting the whole scale up or down to get to 440 Hz. There is for every note an optimal way of blowing to get the best sound. Any change of the pitch by blowing will compromise this so you don't want to have to do it more than absolutely necessary. So get a tuning slide.
Lined/unlined heads are a matter of preference and I personally prefer unlined for their sound and I have no problem being loud enough for sessions. However, on this issue I would not prescribe any particular choice.
Ailin is right about getting out there and trying to play as many flutes as you can. Olwells are good, but so are a lot of other flutes out there. (And a lot are bad too...). What you like best may not be what someone else prefers.
Not disagreeing with your main point, but the tuning slide doesn't move the whole scale up or down either, it changes the upper notes in each octave more. I notice this particularly at the top of the second octave because there I find it harder to 'lip' up or down.
I am not very experienced, but ingoring things that do happen doesn't usually help with the ongoing task of not annoying people.
Well, it does move the whole scale up and down. Maybe not equally, but it does move every note. Bear in mind also, David, that if you have to move the tuning slide significantly, you should also be adjusting the cork position to compensate for some of the relative tuning issues. Move the cork in as you pull the slide out. About a third of the distance.
<getting pedantice and off-topic> Yes, but rolling in or out also moves every note. Maybe not equally - and should the cork should be moved then as well ?
Anyhow, my point (initially to skerries) is that if I am concentrating on trying to play in tune the need for adjusting the slide is signalled by a need to roll away and blow my brains out or roll in and swallow the blow-hole. It is 'this is getting hard work' not 'aargh I am sharp'. Also that having the tuning slide doesn't stop me playing out of tune
Either, both, the thread generally. Some of us have to ram a stick up the head to adjust the cork. I assume an Olwell with a slide has screw stopper. Does the slideless ? All these things add to the work/cost.
Another way of putting my point is that the slide is not the same as a tuning head on a string instrument where an adjustment can be made and we know that, for a time at least, some of the notes are right.
In another discsussion someone (I think one of posters on this thread) has pointed out that if one sets the slide using a tuner or a note from another instrument there is still a possibility that when actually playing a tune one may not blow the note the same. I thought that was good advice when I first got a flute with a slide.
Oh, I think that last point of yours there is bang on, David. Almost every 'ordinary' session flutist, in my experience, tunes up, getting their A perfect, and then plays consistently sharp across the range, getting worse the higher up the scale they go. It's a fact of session life.
I keep trying. Other flutes are a big problem (and most likely me for other flutes) because the timbre is the same . I move my fingers and blow, the note starts, there is this horrible dissonance that seems to come from my lips and I automatically start flailing around trying to make it go away.
We are discussing the desirability of getting a tuning slide on your flute. I say get one. David seems to be arguing that it is not necessary, so don't get one (to save money?). I don't agree and so must agree to disagree with him here.
However, I also have to agree that the problem of tuning to one note then playing another is very real. To avoid it you really have to force yourself to blow as if you are playing the tune normally. I usually play a short clip of a tune and stop on an A somewhere and check that. Can annoy other people trying to tune at the same time, but is a much lesser evil than playing out of tune. Whistle players are also very bad at this. Also not helped by the fact that A is not the most reliable note on one these flutes anyway (small open hole).
And there is no reason why you shouldn't tune both As when your box player plays his tuning note.
A related phenomenom is playing at a different pitch depending on how unsure you are of the tune. Playing quietly along with a less familiar set will be flat compared to blasting away in a set that you started yourself and that you feel good with. This one gets me frequently and often leads to me not playing along or - WAIT FOR IT - adjusting my tuning slide for the duration of that set...
Also, many players feel unsure about getting the second octave A and B and so blow extra hard to make sure that they hit the note. And of course they overblow and make it sharp.
If you really want to get a handle on your personal tuning and that of your flute then Terry McGee's site has a link (http://mcgee-flutes.com/RTTA.htm) to a useful tool called Reel Time Tuning Analysis which will take apart a piece of normal playing (of a tune) and then analyse all the notes that it includes and plot them on a graph. Note that this is a sobering experience the first time you do it...
No, I am arguing against the "people often play out of tune and the solution is to get a tuning slide so you must have one" argument. And though I don't have a lot of experience I am using it on two counts. One is that if the session is at A440 and the room temperature comfortable then I can do without a slide. The second is that even with a slide I can have trouble playing in tune and slide extension is not the main problem.
Someone around here who gives sensible advice has a slideless Burns as a camping flute.
you might like to have a look at the fingering charts that are also up on Mr McGee's website - there are lots of counter-intuitive fingerings the further up the flute you go.
And, indeed (if it is me you mean?) my camping flute is a slideless Burns and it is possible to play it in tune. Since I know roughly where the top joint sits when I personally am playing at 440Hz, I have made a small ring out of plastic that sits inside the headjoint socket and keeps the joint close to the correct position (for me) and fills out the internal bore at that point. But I would still prefer a tuning slide. My problem is not that you can't tune without a slide, but rather that the flute gets mechanically less stable when you do so. And is then prone to slippage, damage to the joint, leaks, etc.
Mr McGee also has a slideless solution on his MDT flutes that seems quite ingenious and covers many of the problems that I personally have with pulling out the top joint of the flute.
And yes, a slide will not make you play in tune, but not having a slide may make it harder for you to do so. Nothing can replace your ears
.
I was guilty of being apallingly out of tune last Sunday because once I blew a note then I simply couldn't hear the resonator mandolin that the person starting the set was playing. So I stopped.
OK, understood. So how about "having a tuning slide will allow someone to play in tune using the blowing style that most suits them". And "starting, as a beginner, with a slideless flute will encourage development of a blowing style that is close to the average of what other players find best" ? Though the latter may require a heated woodshed.
olwell
olwell
I'm thinking of getting an Olwell blackwood D without the slide, does anyone have experience with that instrument,?Is it tunable enough for most sessions ? Thanks all
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by edorian
Re: olwell
Many people think that Patrick Olwell makes the finest flutes on the planet. I'd say go for it! Also, his waiting list is now at 10 years, last I heard.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by plunk111
Re: olwell
The wait for a keyless Olwell will likely be on the order of 12 to 18 months (mine was 18, back in 2003). My 6-key D came almost 7 years after ordering. I wouldn't worry about the slideless flute. Anything Patrick makes will be session ready. These are fantastic flutes. Good choice.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by strayaway child
Re: olwell
But why not get a slide? They really are useful, especially when you have to play with people who might be quite a long way out themselves, or maybe your blowing style is particularly high or low? We are talking about a flute of the top quality here and the lack of a slide would bother me if I was ordering it.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Crackpot
Re: olwell
"We are talking about a flute of the top quality here and the lack of a slide would bother me if I was ordering it."
Second that. To me it would be like ordering a top of the line BMW with budget upholstery and no AC. Surely it will get the job done, but for own peace of mind, not to mention resale value should you ever want a keyed one, tuning slide is the way to go.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Mr_Blackwood
Re: olwell
You don't absolutely need a slide if the flute is made properly to begin with. An experienced player can tune by adjusting his embouchure to compensate for players being out of tune. Recognizing tuning issues in your own playing -- and in your own flute -- and compensating for this will make you a better player. I have an unlined Doyle and two unlined Olwells. They are great flutes. I also have flutes with tuning slides. The choice of what flute I will play doesn't depend on tuning issues but rather on the sound I want. The flute without the tuning slide seems to have a darker, thicker tone. With the slide the tone is cleaner and bit more focused.
You will also save some money and get the flute sooner than if you ordered a flute with a slide. Go for the Olwell, with or without the tuning slide.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by David Levine
Re: olwell
People blow differently. I for example play at 440Hz with the tuning slide pulled out about a quarter of an inch more than one of my friends does on any flute that we have ever both tried.
I own a Casey Burns folk flute without a slide and I can (and do) indeed play it at 440Hz with the top joint pulled out about a 1/4 inch. However there is no denying that this extension would be a lot more mechanically stable with a tuning slide.
I seriously recommend a tuning slide on a serious flute like this. A different matter perhaps on a (very) tight budget or when looking for a "second" flute, or... However, an Olwell will probably be your main instrument of choice as long as you have it and it is worth getting it right.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Crackpot
Re: olwell
It is so miserable when there's a another flute player out of tune with the session. One can console oneself that the problem is the other person's but it doesn't make it easier to play against. Then the offender pronounces that their flute doesn't have a slide and it was made it tune!!!!!!!!!
It's true that an experienced/sensitive/non-deaf player without a tuning slide can compensate to some degree by adjusting embouchure (and adjusting over the course of a session is essential) but they are rare indeed and a decent range of adjustment is necessary to cope with the range of other instruments and playing conditions encountered. The problem with adjusting embouchure is that anything more than a small variation from 'normal' results in non-optimal response.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by skerries
Re: olwell
"I have an unlined Doyle and two unlined Olwells. They are great flutes. I also have flutes with tuning slides."
My Murray has an unlined head *but* also tuning slide.
Unlined/lined heads and tuning slides are two different things, mind!
Olwell will make you a flute with any combination of unlined head/tuning slide you'd like, according to the "catalogue" he sent me a while back.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Mr_Blackwood
Re: olwell
"It's true that an experienced/sensitive/non-deaf player without a tuning slide can compensate to some degree by adjusting embouchure... ... but they are rare indeed" (skerries). Is that true ?
I know that an inexperienced player( me) can play way out of tune in either direction without any help from a tuning slide. Also that is not too difficult for an inexperienced player (me) to play deliberately sharp or flat by adjusting the amount of coverage of the blow-hole.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by David50
Re: olwell
Sorry, to continue. My experience is that flute players (including me) can be out of tune at a session simply because they can't hear properly. Sure a slide is handy. If I play a few tunes in a cold room then have a conversation for ten minutes I may tweak the slide when I start again, but that's for comfort and tone until it warms up.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by David50
Re: olwell
You seem to be well on the way to becoming one of those rare players!
There's no doubt that it's easy to vary the tuning quite widely as a person plays but the key word in the sentence was 'compensate', i.e. to use the ability to vary the tuning to useful effect - that's very rare.
Jim
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by skerries
Re: olwell
I've been hearing about Olwell's alot lately. I've only tried one and was not particularly impressed, which is not to say it wasn't good, but I'd absolutely positively NEVER get on a waiting list of longer than a year to get one. There seems to be a lot of snob appeal about some flutes that I consider downright laughable. My advice is to not get caught up in it. Play some flutes. Find one you like. Buy it.
And let me add one other opinion: Get a lined head and slide. Pointless to buy a flute without both if you want to play sessions. I know the point can be argued, but that's my advice.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Ailin
Re: olwell
Ailin: I'm weary of fully lined heads, most because all but one flute with cracked headjoints i've personally seen have been lined..
There seems to be general agreement that there is a slight difference in tone/sound between lined and unlined heads, everything else being equal, personally i'd rather have a unlined headjoint (and a tuning slide) but to each their own.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Mr_Blackwood
Re: olwell
I understand the concern about cracking and can offer no rebuttal. In my own case, my flute was made in 1882 and had a hairline crack in the head that did not affect the playability (due to the metal lining), but was repaired because I was having some other work done. The barrel has never been cracked. I would say the difference of having a lined head is more than slight, but as you say, to each his own.
One additional thought I'll add on this subject: If you accept my original advice, you will in time have sampled flutes belonging to players you meet. If you find a flute that is demonstrably superior to your own, then would be time to invest money and a long wait to get it. You'll know for sure the wait is worth it and you'll have an acceptable instrument to play in the meantime. Any other approach seems to me to be a gamble at best and foolhardy at worst.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Ailin
Re: olwell
Lined/unlined is a completely different issue to tuning slide or not.
Tuning slides help to make it easier to deal with a common problem for flute players, i.e playing in tune with other players in a session. You still primarily need your ears and you can compensate within limits by pulling out the top joint of a slideless flute, but it is a weakness. Blowing in tune should be reserved for getting the individual notes in the right place in the scale, not for shifting the whole scale up or down to get to 440 Hz. There is for every note an optimal way of blowing to get the best sound. Any change of the pitch by blowing will compromise this so you don't want to have to do it more than absolutely necessary. So get a tuning slide.
Lined/unlined heads are a matter of preference and I personally prefer unlined for their sound and I have no problem being loud enough for sessions. However, on this issue I would not prescribe any particular choice.
Ailin is right about getting out there and trying to play as many flutes as you can. Olwells are good, but so are a lot of other flutes out there. (And a lot are bad too...). What you like best may not be what someone else prefers.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Crackpot
Re: olwell
Not disagreeing with your main point, but the tuning slide doesn't move the whole scale up or down either, it changes the upper notes in each octave more. I notice this particularly at the top of the second octave because there I find it harder to 'lip' up or down.
I am not very experienced, but ingoring things that do happen doesn't usually help with the ongoing task of not annoying people.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by David50
Re: olwell
Well, it does move the whole scale up and down. Maybe not equally, but it does move every note. Bear in mind also, David, that if you have to move the tuning slide significantly, you should also be adjusting the cork position to compensate for some of the relative tuning issues. Move the cork in as you pull the slide out. About a third of the distance.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: olwell
<getting pedantice and off-topic> Yes, but rolling in or out also moves every note. Maybe not equally - and should the cork should be moved then as well ?
Anyhow, my point (initially to skerries) is that if I am concentrating on trying to play in tune the need for adjusting the slide is signalled by a need to roll away and blow my brains out or roll in and swallow the blow-hole. It is 'this is getting hard work' not 'aargh I am sharp'. Also that having the tuning slide doesn't stop me playing out of tune
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by David50
Re: olwell
Is that you getting pedantic or me, David? It could be me. Didn't mean to.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: olwell
Either, both, the thread generally. Some of us have to ram a stick up the head to adjust the cork. I assume an Olwell with a slide has screw stopper. Does the slideless ? All these things add to the work/cost.
Another way of putting my point is that the slide is not the same as a tuning head on a string instrument where an adjustment can be made and we know that, for a time at least, some of the notes are right.
In another discsussion someone (I think one of posters on this thread) has pointed out that if one sets the slide using a tuner or a note from another instrument there is still a possibility that when actually playing a tune one may not blow the note the same. I thought that was good advice when I first got a flute with a slide.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by David50
Re: olwell
Oh, I think that last point of yours there is bang on, David. Almost every 'ordinary' session flutist, in my experience, tunes up, getting their A perfect, and then plays consistently sharp across the range, getting worse the higher up the scale they go. It's a fact of session life.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: olwell
I've been saying that for ages:
You average/"ordinary" session (i.e. almost every session) is just full of people who can't even play in tune.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by ...
Re: olwell
I keep trying. Other flutes are a big problem (and most likely me for other flutes) because the timbre is the same . I move my fingers and blow, the note starts, there is this horrible dissonance that seems to come from my lips and I automatically start flailing around trying to make it go away.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by David50
Re: olwell
We are discussing the desirability of getting a tuning slide on your flute. I say get one. David seems to be arguing that it is not necessary, so don't get one (to save money?). I don't agree and so must agree to disagree with him here.
However, I also have to agree that the problem of tuning to one note then playing another is very real. To avoid it you really have to force yourself to blow as if you are playing the tune normally. I usually play a short clip of a tune and stop on an A somewhere and check that. Can annoy other people trying to tune at the same time, but is a much lesser evil than playing out of tune. Whistle players are also very bad at this. Also not helped by the fact that A is not the most reliable note on one these flutes anyway (small open hole).
And there is no reason why you shouldn't tune both As when your box player plays his tuning note.
A related phenomenom is playing at a different pitch depending on how unsure you are of the tune. Playing quietly along with a less familiar set will be flat compared to blasting away in a set that you started yourself and that you feel good with. This one gets me frequently and often leads to me not playing along or - WAIT FOR IT - adjusting my tuning slide for the duration of that set...
Also, many players feel unsure about getting the second octave A and B and so blow extra hard to make sure that they hit the note. And of course they overblow and make it sharp.
If you really want to get a handle on your personal tuning and that of your flute then Terry McGee's site has a link (http://mcgee-flutes.com/RTTA.htm) to a useful tool called Reel Time Tuning Analysis which will take apart a piece of normal playing (of a tune) and then analyse all the notes that it includes and plot them on a graph. Note that this is a sobering experience the first time you do it...
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Crackpot
Re: olwell
No, I am arguing against the "people often play out of tune and the solution is to get a tuning slide so you must have one" argument. And though I don't have a lot of experience I am using it on two counts. One is that if the session is at A440 and the room temperature comfortable then I can do without a slide. The second is that even with a slide I can have trouble playing in tune and slide extension is not the main problem.
Someone around here who gives sensible advice has a slideless Burns as a camping flute.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by David50
Re: olwell
Also I never would have guessed that in the second octave X00XXX is sharper than X0000 but my friends are glad I read it somewhere.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by David50
Re: olwell
@David,
you might like to have a look at the fingering charts that are also up on Mr McGee's website - there are lots of counter-intuitive fingerings the further up the flute you go.
And, indeed (if it is me you mean?) my camping flute is a slideless Burns and it is possible to play it in tune. Since I know roughly where the top joint sits when I personally am playing at 440Hz, I have made a small ring out of plastic that sits inside the headjoint socket and keeps the joint close to the correct position (for me) and fills out the internal bore at that point. But I would still prefer a tuning slide. My problem is not that you can't tune without a slide, but rather that the flute gets mechanically less stable when you do so. And is then prone to slippage, damage to the joint, leaks, etc.
Mr McGee also has a slideless solution on his MDT flutes that seems quite ingenious and covers many of the problems that I personally have with pulling out the top joint of the flute.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Crackpot
Re: olwell
And yes, a slide will not make you play in tune, but not having a slide may make it harder for you to do so. Nothing can replace your ears
.
I was guilty of being apallingly out of tune last Sunday because once I blew a note then I simply couldn't hear the resonator mandolin that the person starting the set was playing. So I stopped.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Crackpot
Re: olwell
OK, understood. So how about "having a tuning slide will allow someone to play in tune using the blowing style that most suits them". And "starting, as a beginner, with a slideless flute will encourage development of a blowing style that is close to the average of what other players find best" ? Though the latter may require a heated woodshed.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by David50