Hi everyone,
(First excuse my english, long time I did not practice...)
I started,what it seems now, a kind of wind up few weeks ago on a french forum about my whistle's opinions. I did not want it to happen, there was no premeditation on my part but I think sometimes the french ITM lovers are boring ... really. I only wanted to share my point of view with a newbie.
Now I have heard the tiresome political correctness of the majority of the subscribers of the french forum I want to read some real irish point of views.
So, some average girly newbie came to that french forum and wrote that she wanted to learn ITM and TW... Nice. Everyone is happy, a new member to community and 2 pages of advices later, I decided I had to wrote something and I wrote something like this :
Keep it mind the whistle is not an end in itself. You always should be ambitious and looking forward learning a real instrument. The whistle is a kind of opportunity to learn something else, the flute for instance. Whistle is fine but not lifetime.
Well it's a bit a caricatural summary of what I wrote, but it's the idea.
I got 10 pages of harsh and tough answers defending the whistle as an instrument. Lot of members told me I didn't understand what ITM spirit was, that I shouldn't think and tell newbies these kind of bullshits and so on...
I still can get why I am wrong here. My flute session master always encouraged me to learn the flute.
I think I was like most average ITM beginners and started up with the tin whistle. Then luckily I met someone who told me I shouldn't be shy but more ambitious and start learning a "real" instrument. I guess using the word "real" imply a categorization but it's not necessarily derogatory when I talk about tin whistle...
So what do you think about this ? Should I be punished for my narrowminded point of view ? I only want to understand and maybe come up with something better...
Well hope it's clear enough... very tough to explain but good exercise for me, french
Oui je pense vraiment que vous êtes mesquins. Ou du moins très limité dans votre vision du monde. Le tin whistle est l'une des plus expressives des instruments, et particulièrement bien adapté pour la musique traditionnelle irlandaise. Je fais un suppose que tu ne plaisantes pas, afin que vous pouvez démarrer une bagarre. Ou peut-être vous êtes, dans ce cas, bien fait! Je suis sûr que mon français est bien pire que votre niveau d'anglais. Rire aux éclats.
I can't answer in French. My French would be an embarassment. I love flute. But I also love it when I hear tin whistle played really well. It's a fantastic instrument in its own right. I don't think of flute as a step on from tin whistle. It's just a different instrument, that's all.
The whistle is both a "gateway" instrument and an end in and of itself. Just depends on what you want. A lot of people who are considering learning pipes or flute will start with a whistle because they are cheap and accessible (and pipes and flutes are neither) and then move on from there. Others are happy playing the whistle because they just want to play the whistle. The whistle is a fine instrument in its own right, as ethical said.
How the feck can you call one of the main instruments of Irish traditional music a toy??
OP, do you think people who have played the tin whistle for all their lives aren't ambitious then?? Do you even classify them as musicians, as you just wrote that they should be encouraged to learn a "real instrument"?
Seriously, I'm getting really sick of people who doesn't seem to understand that learning to play the tin whistle properly really is a long journey and definitely not just a beginner's instrument..
Amazing how the reactions are the same : french or irish....
My experience : I was happpy playing tin whistle and at this time, for me, it was an end in itself. I never thought I would be able to learn flute and one day someone told me i had to try. I tried and now I am grateful to this guy who encourage me to be ambitious and thanks to him I play the flute today.
What I want to say here is, if I wouldn't have met this guy (who is my flute master actualy) I would still be playing the TW today... But wow I was happy with my TW at the time but now I am even more glad I can play the flute...
Rats! I had a nice post there in response to Mattias, basically suggesting that he cut you some slack, Ralex, since you'd asked nicely 'n' all. Site ate it.
Anyway - not everyone here is Irish - the board isn't even established or maintained in Ireland. We're from all over.
The tin whistle is a lovely instrument, and it's a real instrument.
Learn to play it!
Ignore disparagement from unfortunates who can't find anything more constructive to do - though do pay attention to helpful criticism, if it comes your way.
A fine, yet humble instrument. A tinwhistle is excellent for learning the tunes. It's relatively easy for playing all the twiddly bits. It's certainly not a toy when someone like Liam O'Flynn plays one, nor was it a toy when Micho Russell or Willie Clancy played.
It has certain limitations so it makes sense for a whistler to also learn to play flute, or some other instrument.
Love to listen to Hynes brothers too for instance... but I prefer their sound on the flute although their swing are the same on each instrument, whistle or flute...
I'm not quite sure if you intended to use my country of origin in a pejorative way, but don't you think I have the right to tell what I think is an instrument or not, just because I'm not Irish?
I really think that ESPECIALLY people from other parts of the world should be EXTRA respectful to other countries culture and traditions.
Sure, I could definitely make fun of Sweden and whatever we might be associated with, but I would never ever insult or even question another country's traditions , which I truly think Ralex did, even though that might not have been his intent!
That said, I think it's great that Ralex took up the flute and love playing it. However, that doesn't mean that the tin whistle is not an adequate instrument..
Mattias, you sure are reading a lot into what I wrote that isn't in my words! There were just two simple thoughts (at least as regards your post above, and Ralex's reply to it):
Firstly, I thought you were over-harsh on him. As you'll see from my earlier post, i completely agree with you that the tin whistle is a fine instrument in its own right. I still think you could have been kinder to Ralex who, after all, was only trying to learn.
And secondly, Ralex implied that he thought that this was an Irish site, and that even on an Irish site, he was still getting the same sort of abuse he'd got on a French site. I was merely pointing out that, as regards this site, people are from all over, and that the person who had posted the attack (similar to those French ones) happened to be from Sweden, as opposed to Ireland. I neither meant nor said anything pejorative at all.
it is definitely a serious musical instrument. the reason you see many people playing the whistle AND another instrument is because it is a lot easier to give a child a $5 whistle than another expensive instrument. many irish musicians start on the whistle because their parents don't care if they break it, not because it is lesser than something else.
i have a friend who is a classical pianist, and she is learning the whistle. she finds it to be one of the most challenging things she has ever done!
I notice you were taken away from the whistle by a flute teacher. Interesting.
I suppose that you never figured he had an ulterior motive? ie that he could make money out of teaching you flute but was not up to teaching you whistle.
Oh come on guys! He's saying he wants to learn. He's asking nicely. And you're responding by threatening to shove his flute ... I mean, even if it's a joke, frankly, it ain't funny. How about just explaining why we think the tin whistle is an important - equally important, if everyone insists - instrument rather than this posturing?
"So what do you think about this ? Should I be punished for my narrowminded point of view ? I only want to understand and maybe come up with something better..."
i agree with ethical blend about over-harsh reactions and i noticed it happens all the time on the Internet. Sometimes I regret people not having this same frankness in real life but maybe in some case the physical appearance becomes an authoritative argument. That's why I don't have any fighting problems. That's my answer to fidkid reaction above who tried to speak in french very harshly...
People overreacting and attacking first and asking questions later? On the internet? Well, I never.
I think the OP was wrong, both in his assessment that this is an "Irish" forum and in his comment to the newbie on the French forum:
"Keep it mind the whistle is not an end in itself. You always should be ambitious and looking forward learning a real instrument. The whistle is a kind of opportunity to learn something else, the flute for instance. Whistle is fine but not lifetime."
However, sneeringly telling him he doesn't understand the music and that he should shove his flute where the sun don't shine is a wee bit over the top. As I and others have said, one can easily devote a lifetime to playing the whistle and at the same time, many use it as a jumping off point for pipes and flute. One can gently correct and explain without automatically going into "dick" mode. Save that for folk like the Beckers.
I knew I had to tiptoeing around this thread more carefully...
In fact, my goal is to learn and come up maybe with something more openminded... that's why I decided to share my experience on the other forum here. I think there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that.. or ?
@ SilverSpear : To get a proper embouchure and to focus on the flute. Flute can be very discouraging at the beginning and you often are tempted to take back the tin whistle as the sound is more simple to get...
Is it just me or is there something really weird with the synchronization of the orchestra and Sir James during the tin whistle part beginning at 1:55?
notice i didn't use "simplistic solution" regarding the TW.
but everybody will agree (maybe?) with me that producing a sound on the flute is much harder than producing a sound on the TW.
Yes producing a steady note is obviously harder on a flute than a tin whistle, and that fact, in addition to the fact that a tin whistle indeed is cheap, is probably why the whistle often is the first instrument that people learn.
What I think is very important to understand though, is that this does not mean that learning the tin whistle is easy or that it's just a beginner's instrument!
Sir James Galway is the very famous Boehm flute player in the Youtube video I posted in the previous post!
Let me put it this way; I prefer his flute playing to his whistle playing..
I don't think there's anything wrong with the synchronisation of whistle and orchestra there. It's just that the music is syncopated and not a little odd.
Good example of what I was talking about earlier about his whistle playing though.
i would love to learn to play the tin whistle. i think i will. it seems able to be both simple and straightforward, or nuanced and complex, depending on the skill of the player. i would expect a person would keep learning and improving for a long time and never get to the end of it. i guess i don't care if it's a toy or not, to me it would be an instrument.
ps i kind of liked the odd timing/syncopation of james galway's playing in the piece above, whether or not he's a pompous old fart. it didn't seem traditional, but it seemed fun.
You should be punished! There is nothing better than listening to good Whistle Playing. And yes its Whistle and not Tin Whistle because of the wide variety of fantastic WHISTLES in circulation today.
I think a lot of people default to the tin whistle as a first instrument. There are three related results of this:
- It seems to be the simplest instrument
- it's (on average) the worst played instrument (not to mention that it's possibly the hardest to play in tune)
- The transition to the musical maturity of "I'm going to stop tootling about and get serious about music" often coincides with the transition to a new instrument (possibly leading Ralex to see a deeper link where there isn't one)
Bottom line, if you treat tin whistle as a toy, at some point you're going to have to settle for
a) moving to another instrument
b) staying at a very basic mastery of music (not that there is anything wrong with that)
c) stop treating the tin whistle as a toy
Three other thoughts:
Ralex is totally right in looking for a wider range of opinions than those of a French forum (but there is, by and large, little lacking in french irish music playing, except perhaps a bit of a sense of humour - I lived for 4 years in France and learnt irish music there)
Many people have preconceptions about their limitations and might choose tin whislte as something "even they" could play - I know I did. Now I'm quite happy playing flute, whislte and concertina
When learning a new instrument it's very tempting to "just play tunes" on the one you know. When I'm practiciing concertina, I tend to arrive at a point where I say Feck It and pick up the flute. It's a good thing to give up the whistle as much as possible when playing flute - just like I'll have to put the flute away and only play concertina, at some point in my musical life
Can we not settle this by agreeing that all musical instruments are really just toys? I mean ... what do you do with them? You "play" them. You "play" on them.
Last christmas, my daughter (8) was given by her grandparents what I was (before reading this thread) rather disparagingly refering to as a "toy" guitar. But thinking about it, that's not really fare. I don't think it was made as a toy guitar, I mean it's not one of those plastic things with buttons you press that play horrid midi sample things. It's made of wood and got a proper set of strings on it and proper machine heads etc. But I was calling it a toy because it will never ever play anywhere near in tune. It's a useless plank. A waste of the £20 it cost.
But is it a toy? Of course it's a bloody toy. My mistake was being disparaging about it. So yeah, it's a toy. But it's just a shlt toy. Unlike my violin, which is a very very good toy indeed. However, although my daughters guitar is a waste of a mere £20 and my violin is an excellently well spent thousands, it makes me think about the wonder of how fantastic it is that with a bit of effort and a bit of luck, you can get one of the most excellent and versatile and beautifully simple and useful toys in the whole wide world for under a fiver. All you have to do is play with it with as much imagination as you can muster. Bloody marvelous.
Ralex, Thanks for the opportunity to let us tell you how dumb you sound when you say that a tin whistle is not an instrument. Next, you'll be looking down on harmonicas, I suppose. And then what, banjos?
If you know any "professional" musicians who you think have lost their ability to "play", remind them of that moment when they were 5 and they first found out that Lego actually employed grow ups to have a career playing with lego.
"Can we not settle this by agreeing that all musical instruments are really just toys? I mean ... what do you do with them? You "play" them. You "play" on them."
The etymolgy of the word 'play' suggests a wider application than just handling toys. Eg, 'exercise', 'to carry out or practise an action', 'perform', 'execute a movement' etc. Then again, the etymology of 'toy' would suggest a wider application than a child's plaything.
"1934
The company and its products now adopt the name LEGO, formed from the Danish words "LEg GOdt" ("play well"). Later, it is realised that in Latin the word means "I put together". "
If I used the Legos that have shapes, like airplane wings, as opposed to the ones that are just differently sized and shaped bricks, would that be considered untraditional?
There are traditionalists in the Lego world who don't like all these custom pieces and fancy kits that are designed to be built only one way. So yeah, TSS, there are "keepers of the traditional flame" amongst the toy collectors of the world as well as the musicians of the world.
1. a. Active bodily exercise or movement; brisk and vigorous action of the body or limbs, as in fighting, fencing, dancing, leaping, etc.
b. The action of lightly and briskly wielding or plying a weapon in fencing or combat. Freq. as the second element in compounds, as †lind-play, sabre-play, sword-play, etc.
c. Ornithol. The mating display of a male bird; (in quots.) the elaborate courtship display of the male capercaillie. Obs.
2. In form plaw. An act or example of boiling; effervescence; ebullition. Obs. (Eng. regional (E. Anglian) in later use).
3.
a. Action, operation, activity, working (often implying rapid movement, rapid change, or variety). Freq. with of
b. to hold (also keep) in play : to keep (a person, military force, etc.) occupied or engaged; to distract, delay, or keep at bay (an enemy) by doing this. Also † to keep (a person) play.
c. to bring (also call, put) into (also †in) play : to bring into operation, make active, begin to exercise. to come into (also †in) play : (chiefly of a thing) to come into operation or effect, become active.
4.
a. Rapid, brisk, or light movement, usually quickly changing or intermittent; elusive change or transition of light or colour; light motion about or impact upon something
b. Play of light or colour (see sense 4a). Obs.
5.
a. Free action; freedom, opportunity, or room for action; scope for activity.
b. Free or unimpeded movement, esp. from or about a fixed point; the proper or possible movement of a mechanism or a part of a living body. Now chiefly used for the movement of muscles in the human body.
c. Esp. in a joint, mechanism, etc.: freedom or room for movement; the space in or through which a thing can or does move.
d. slang (orig. U.S.). Attention or patronage; a show of interest; publicity.
II. Exercise or action for enjoyment or recreation, and related senses.
6.
a. Exercise or activity engaged in for enjoyment or recreation rather than for a serious or practical purpose; amusement, entertainment, diversion; (in later use esp.) the spontaneous or organized recreational activity of children; (colloq.) an instance or period of such activity. at play: engaged in playing.
b. Enjoyment, pleasure, joy, delight; a source of delight. Obs. (Sc. in later use).
c. Sexual activity or dalliance; foreplay; amorous recreation
7
a. A particular sport, game, pastime, or recreational activity. Now chiefly Psychol.
†b. Chiefly Sc. A rural entertainment or festivity; a country fair, esp. one involving games, pageantry, drama, etc. Obs.
And it goes on and on.....later:
IV. The playing of music or a musical or other recording.
18.
†a. Performance on a musical instrument. Cf. playing n. Obs.
b. colloq. The act of playing a record, video cassette, compact disc, etc.
So, I don't think it is a word that is simply the opposite of work, and it doesn't follow that anything which is the object of play is a toy.
1.
a. A tubular wind instrument of wood, metal or other hard substance, having a more or less shrill tone, which is produced by impact of air upon a sharp edge; a shrill-toned pipe. Formerly also = pipe or flute.
I don't play the tin whistle but i've heard it played. It about ripped my heart out of my chest. A terrible beautiful solo by one of my session mates. I feel in love with the tin whistle that night. Anything that can sing like that, is a "real" instrument in my book.
Yes it's small, and cheap. What does small and cheap have to do with it's musicality? Whoever created it OBVIOUSLY new what they were doing. Not being snarky, just making points. Also, Of all the instruments that I feel can relate the most to a humans' voice in it's capablilities and the mechanics, Tin Whistle is one of them. The only other one I can think of is the Violin.
funny how this kind of question reappears from time to time, not only with tin whistle... in 35 years of playing, I've heard things like "is melodeon an musical instrument ?" is snare drum a musical instrument ? and so on, with jew's harp,... I quit the Music school in my home town when I was 18, because I was playing (more striving to play ) O'Carolan tunes on the lever harp, and the Director came in and told me "it's nice, but play some real music now"... and I'll say it again and again, it's never the instrument, always the player : if you consider TW like a toy, you'll treat it as such... and if you consider it as an instrument, then you'll play music on it... getting sometimes quite fed up with this stuff of postulating this and that... if you enjoy playing the instrument, and play it sufficiently well for other people to enjoy it as well, then it's an instrument AND you're playing music with it...
Of course anything can be an instrument and you can play music on anything, not least because the definition of music is completely subjective, i.e. you can call call any sound music, even silence, and for you then, it is music.
But the pertinent question is, what kind of music? For example, you can play music on a drum, but you can't play tunes on it. However, the answer to the question here, the answer that nobody who knows anything about Irish music would ever in a million years disagree with, is that you can play Irish traditional music to the very peak of the highest of its standards on a simple tin whistle costing less than a fiver.
"If there's one thing that really feckin annoys me on this website it's people using words very plainly and getting dictionaries copypasted at them."
But you didn't use the "words" plainly, did you?
You conflated 'play' with 'toy' under the false logic:
"Toys are played with so all things played are toys".
That is why I mentioned the etymology of both words. It was followed by Babs coming out with:
"Weejie, don't want to be boorish; but
" . .. Opposed to work (v.) since late 14c.""
She didn't seem to fathom that "opposed to work" was but one definition of very many.
Hence the pasting from a dictionary. Some people do need it spelling out for them.
"I know what I meant when I used the words play and toy and so did you and everyone else."
Well, your words were:
"Can we not settle this by agreeing that all musical instruments are really just toys? I mean ... what do you do with them? You "play" them. You "play" on them"
And, yes, it was obvious what you meant. The problem was your understanding of the words you used. You seemed to forget that there are several meanings to both words, and they are not mutually dependent. You made a conclusion that was flawed.
No. Musical instruments are not "toys" - they can be used as toys, but they can also be used as "tools of the trade".
"Aye, Michael, but you know some people on this website can't resist showing off their mad copy-paste skillz."
If I could have linked to the plentiful OED definitions I would have done so. As this was not possible, I pasted them. There was no "showing off" involved. The abundance of definitions was the actual point being made.
Perhaps they are not both examples of traditional Irish music being played well. However, that is a matter of opinion - however much it might be a majority opinion.
The above quotes, however, do illustrate how you have moved the goalposts. If "musical instruments are toys" then the second of your YouTube examples certainly shows people playing with those toys. Now you seem to be saying that it is more than just "playing with them" and that "play" might have other connotations.
Did it ever occur to you that Michael was in fact playing with the word "play," perhaps even exploiting some of its ambiguity and multiple definitions?
"Did it ever occur to you that Michael was in fact playing with the word "play," perhaps even exploiting some of its ambiguity and multiple definitions? "
On the contrary. He was suggesting in that post that even his daugter's s**t guitar was a toy (though it wasn't sold as a toy) - and that it was a s**t toy because it didn't play in tune. Nowhere in that post is there any indication that there are other definitions of the word "play". The focus was on the word "toy" - and how it applied to instruments because you "played" them. It was narrowing the definition of "play".
The only thing he was exploiting was his own opinions - nothing new there.
Did it ever occur to you that my pasting the definitions of "play" was in response to Babs' post, not Mr Gill's?
This is a mainly english language web site but music is international. If you are going to rely on dictionaries when arguing about a concept then I think you should look at how other the languages go about it. We 'play' an instrument and we 'play' a tune. They do those things in other places. How is they said in, say, French and Spanish ? Does that help ?
"If you are going to rely on dictionaries when arguing about a concept then I think you should look at how other the languages go about it."
The argument as to whether an instrument was a toy or not was based on the word "play" - when you base an argument on the meaning of a word, then a dictionary is a valid resource.
You have a valid point about the verb in other languages - but if you were to choose another Germanic language, you would come up against the same rationale - and that includes the word "toy".
"Nae etymology pedants in Glasgow but I'm sure you can find a good vegan soda bread recipe."
You can't know Glasgow too well. I learned everything from the Glasgow Etymology Pedants' Association. It was also the birthplace of John Jamieson.
As for vegan soda bread, they used to do a nice one in that place on Great Western Road before yon Danesh (of Darius ilk) folk started to make it more appealing to a wider clientele.
Still - if you object to milking soya coos, then bear in mind the pain that the grain goes through in the mill.
Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
First we should define the terms. M-W online says:
Definition of TOY
1obsolete a : flirtatious or seductive behaviour b : pastime; also : a sportive or amusing act : antic
2a : something (as a preoccupation) that is paltry or trifling b : a literary or musical trifle or diversion c : trinket, bauble
3: something for a child to play with
4: something diminutive; especially : a diminutive animal (as of a small breed or variety)
5: something that can be toyed with
6 Scottish : a headdress of linen or woollen hanging down over the shoulders and formerly worn by old women of the lower classes
Definition of INSTRUMENT
1: a device used to produce music; also : a singing voice
2 a : a means whereby something is achieved, performed, or furthered b : one used by another as a means or aid : DUPE, TOOL
3: IMPLEMENT; especially : one designed for precision work
4: a formal legal document (as a deed, bond, or agreement)
5 a : a measuring device for determining the present value of a quantity under observation b : an electrical or mechanical device used in navigating an airplane; especially : such a device used as the sole means of navigating
So, apart from the original Clarke whistles, how many are still being manufactured in tinplate (tin plated steel)?
Dave Shaw's are nickel silver, so those are out.
Any instrument that can sound like Seamus makes this one sound (@1:15) isn't a toy. (Thanks to whoever posted this link a while back--it's wonderful in several ways.)
I have always felt the tin whistle was was one of, if not the, most expressive, emotional sounding instruments in ITM, played well. I know the fiddle, the flute and the pipes usually get higher billing, but a really well-played whistle just knocks me out.
I enjoyed the irony in your man Seamus there talking about tunes surviving because they are great tunes and him then playing a tune that was packed full of clever bits but was really completely void of melody.
Atahualpa ~ Dancha O'Biain?
If you need a good text editor check out Notepad++. I just began using the streamlined version. You can include plenty of bells & whistles, but then it gets buggy.
I don't know. I have a language bar application. I'm well into the beer now, but I'll see if I can sort out a link for where I got it.
I'll be back in a minute . . .
or I'll just go home to play tunes
. . .
"I enjoyed the irony in your man Seamus there talking about tunes surviving because they are great tunes and him then playing a tune that was packed full of clever bits but was really completely void of melody."
Seems like a pretty transparent melody to me, MG. Keep working at it--you'll get it.
Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Hi everyone,
(First excuse my english, long time I did not practice...)
I started,what it seems now, a kind of wind up few weeks ago on a french forum about my whistle's opinions. I did not want it to happen, there was no premeditation on my part but I think sometimes the french ITM lovers are boring ... really. I only wanted to share my point of view with a newbie.
Now I have heard the tiresome political correctness of the majority of the subscribers of the french forum I want to read some real irish point of views.
So, some average girly newbie came to that french forum and wrote that she wanted to learn ITM and TW... Nice. Everyone is happy, a new member to community and 2 pages of advices later, I decided I had to wrote something and I wrote something like this :
Keep it mind the whistle is not an end in itself. You always should be ambitious and looking forward learning a real instrument. The whistle is a kind of opportunity to learn something else, the flute for instance. Whistle is fine but not lifetime.
Well it's a bit a caricatural summary of what I wrote, but it's the idea.
I got 10 pages of harsh and tough answers defending the whistle as an instrument. Lot of members told me I didn't understand what ITM spirit was, that I shouldn't think and tell newbies these kind of bullshits and so on...
I still can get why I am wrong here. My flute session master always encouraged me to learn the flute.
I think I was like most average ITM beginners and started up with the tin whistle. Then luckily I met someone who told me I shouldn't be shy but more ambitious and start learning a "real" instrument. I guess using the word "real" imply a categorization but it's not necessarily derogatory when I talk about tin whistle...
So what do you think about this ? Should I be punished for my narrowminded point of view ? I only want to understand and maybe come up with something better...
Well hope it's clear enough... very tough to explain but good exercise for me, french
see you everyone
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Yes
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I should precise that I love TW, love to listen to great musicians play TW. I am not a TW hater...
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Oui je pense vraiment que vous êtes mesquins. Ou du moins très limité dans votre vision du monde. Le tin whistle est l'une des plus expressives des instruments, et particulièrement bien adapté pour la musique traditionnelle irlandaise. Je fais un suppose que tu ne plaisantes pas, afin que vous pouvez démarrer une bagarre. Ou peut-être vous êtes, dans ce cas, bien fait! Je suis sûr que mon français est bien pire que votre niveau d'anglais. Rire aux éclats.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I can't answer in French. My French would be an embarassment. I love flute. But I also love it when I hear tin whistle played really well. It's a fantastic instrument in its own right. I don't think of flute as a step on from tin whistle. It's just a different instrument, that's all.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
The whistle is both a "gateway" instrument and an end in and of itself. Just depends on what you want. A lot of people who are considering learning pipes or flute will start with a whistle because they are cheap and accessible (and pipes and flutes are neither) and then move on from there. Others are happy playing the whistle because they just want to play the whistle. The whistle is a fine instrument in its own right, as ethical said.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
How the feck can you call one of the main instruments of Irish traditional music a toy??
OP, do you think people who have played the tin whistle for all their lives aren't ambitious then?? Do you even classify them as musicians, as you just wrote that they should be encouraged to learn a "real instrument"?
Seriously, I'm getting really sick of people who doesn't seem to understand that learning to play the tin whistle properly really is a long journey and definitely not just a beginner's instrument..
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Mattias Holm
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Amazing how the reactions are the same : french or irish....
My experience : I was happpy playing tin whistle and at this time, for me, it was an end in itself. I never thought I would be able to learn flute and one day someone told me i had to try. I tried and now I am grateful to this guy who encourage me to be ambitious and thanks to him I play the flute today.
What I want to say here is, if I wouldn't have met this guy (who is my flute master actualy) I would still be playing the TW today... But wow I was happy with my TW at the time but now I am even more glad I can play the flute...
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Rats! I had a nice post there in response to Mattias, basically suggesting that he cut you some slack, Ralex, since you'd asked nicely 'n' all.
Site ate it.
Anyway - not everyone here is Irish - the board isn't even established or maintained in Ireland. We're from all over.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
... for instance, Mattias is from Sweden ...
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
The tin whistle is a lovely instrument, and it's a real instrument.
Learn to play it!
Ignore disparagement from unfortunates who can't find anything more constructive to do - though do pay attention to helpful criticism, if it comes your way.
Good luck.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by nicholas
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
A fine, yet humble instrument. A tinwhistle is excellent for learning the tunes. It's relatively easy for playing all the twiddly bits. It's certainly not a toy when someone like Liam O'Flynn plays one, nor was it a toy when Micho Russell or Willie Clancy played.
It has certain limitations so it makes sense for a whistler to also learn to play flute, or some other instrument.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Love to listen to Hynes brothers too for instance... but I prefer their sound on the flute although their swing are the same on each instrument, whistle or flute...
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
@ ethical blend
I'm not quite sure if you intended to use my country of origin in a pejorative way, but don't you think I have the right to tell what I think is an instrument or not, just because I'm not Irish?
I really think that ESPECIALLY people from other parts of the world should be EXTRA respectful to other countries culture and traditions.
Sure, I could definitely make fun of Sweden and whatever we might be associated with, but I would never ever insult or even question another country's traditions , which I truly think Ralex did, even though that might not have been his intent!
That said, I think it's great that Ralex took up the flute and love playing it. However, that doesn't mean that the tin whistle is not an adequate instrument..
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Mattias Holm
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Ask Mary Bergin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-jTlWGwWyg
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by mulcreevy
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Mattias, you sure are reading a lot into what I wrote that isn't in my words!
There were just two simple thoughts (at least as regards your post above, and Ralex's reply to it):
Firstly, I thought you were over-harsh on him. As you'll see from my earlier post, i completely agree with you that the tin whistle is a fine instrument in its own right. I still think you could have been kinder to Ralex who, after all, was only trying to learn.
And secondly, Ralex implied that he thought that this was an Irish site, and that even on an Irish site, he was still getting the same sort of abuse he'd got on a French site. I was merely pointing out that, as regards this site, people are from all over, and that the person who had posted the attack (similar to those French ones) happened to be from Sweden, as opposed to Ireland. I neither meant nor said anything pejorative at all.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
it is definitely a serious musical instrument. the reason you see many people playing the whistle AND another instrument is because it is a lot easier to give a child a $5 whistle than another expensive instrument. many irish musicians start on the whistle because their parents don't care if they break it, not because it is lesser than something else.
i have a friend who is a classical pianist, and she is learning the whistle. she finds it to be one of the most challenging things she has ever done!
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by daiv
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I notice you were taken away from the whistle by a flute teacher. Interesting.
I suppose that you never figured he had an ulterior motive? ie that he could make money out of teaching you flute but was not up to teaching you whistle.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ormepipes
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Definitely not a toy. To my mind, if you don't understand the whistle, you don't understand this music.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Oh come on guys! He's saying he wants to learn. He's asking nicely. And you're responding by threatening to shove his flute ... I mean, even if it's a joke, frankly, it ain't funny. How about just explaining why we think the tin whistle is an important - equally important, if everyone insists - instrument rather than this posturing?
"So what do you think about this ? Should I be punished for my narrowminded point of view ? I only want to understand and maybe come up with something better..."
See, that sounds reasonable to me.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
i agree with ethical blend about over-harsh reactions and i noticed it happens all the time on the Internet. Sometimes I regret people not having this same frankness in real life but maybe in some case the physical appearance becomes an authoritative argument. That's why I don't have any fighting problems. That's my answer to fidkid reaction above who tried to speak in french very harshly...
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
By the way my teacher (who is not really a paid-teacher) told me that in order to learn the flute i need to stop playing the TW for awhile...
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
People overreacting and attacking first and asking questions later? On the internet? Well, I never.
I think the OP was wrong, both in his assessment that this is an "Irish" forum and in his comment to the newbie on the French forum:
"Keep it mind the whistle is not an end in itself. You always should be ambitious and looking forward learning a real instrument. The whistle is a kind of opportunity to learn something else, the flute for instance. Whistle is fine but not lifetime."
However, sneeringly telling him he doesn't understand the music and that he should shove his flute where the sun don't shine is a wee bit over the top. As I and others have said, one can easily devote a lifetime to playing the whistle and at the same time, many use it as a jumping off point for pipes and flute. One can gently correct and explain without automatically going into "dick" mode. Save that for folk like the Beckers.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
@ Ralex. Really? Does your teacher have a reason for that, because I don't see one.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
James Galway's parents gave him a whistle and guess what.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by jtrout
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Yeah. What she said.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
... and he still hasn't learnt to play it ...
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
@ ethical blend
HAHA, that last comment totally made my day!
You can't complain on his skills on the Boehm flute though, can you?
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Mattias Holm
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I knew I had to tiptoeing around this thread more carefully...
In fact, my goal is to learn and come up maybe with something more openminded... that's why I decided to share my experience on the other forum here. I think there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that.. or ?
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Exactly right, Mattias.
@ Ralex: you tell 'em!
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
@ SilverSpear : To get a proper embouchure and to focus on the flute. Flute can be very discouraging at the beginning and you often are tempted to take back the tin whistle as the sound is more simple to get...
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
@ ethical blend
By the way, that reminded me of a video I watched some time ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZIDzoTAh8I
Is it just me or is there something really weird with the synchronization of the orchestra and Sir James during the tin whistle part beginning at 1:55?
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Mattias Holm
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
notice i didn't use "simplistic solution" regarding the TW.
but everybody will agree (maybe?) with me that producing a sound on the flute is much harder than producing a sound on the TW.
Who is Sir James ?
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
@ Ralex
Yes producing a steady note is obviously harder on a flute than a tin whistle, and that fact, in addition to the fact that a tin whistle indeed is cheap, is probably why the whistle often is the first instrument that people learn.
What I think is very important to understand though, is that this does not mean that learning the tin whistle is easy or that it's just a beginner's instrument!
Sir James Galway is the very famous Boehm flute player in the Youtube video I posted in the previous post!
Let me put it this way; I prefer his flute playing to his whistle playing..
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by Mattias Holm
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I don't think there's anything wrong with the synchronisation of whistle and orchestra there. It's just that the music is syncopated and not a little odd.
Good example of what I was talking about earlier about his whistle playing though.
# Posted on November 14th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Sir James Galway is a pompous old fart. The tin whistle is still the finest instrument in the session.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by mcknowall
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
i would love to learn to play the tin whistle. i think i will. it seems able to be both simple and straightforward, or nuanced and complex, depending on the skill of the player. i would expect a person would keep learning and improving for a long time and never get to the end of it. i guess i don't care if it's a toy or not, to me it would be an instrument.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by full measure
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
ps i kind of liked the odd timing/syncopation of james galway's playing in the piece above, whether or not he's a pompous old fart. it didn't seem traditional, but it seemed fun.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by full measure
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
@ ethical blend
Yeah, maybe it's just me having a hard time with that syncopation!
Haha yeah definitely!
It's funny because I really do enjoy his flute playing, but his whistle playing is not really up to par, so to speak!
Have you seen the video in which he plays Boys of Bluehill with Matt Molloy?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Mattias Holm
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
You should be punished! There is nothing better than listening to good Whistle Playing. And yes its Whistle and not Tin Whistle because of the wide variety of fantastic WHISTLES in circulation today.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by EndaS
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I think a lot of people default to the tin whistle as a first instrument. There are three related results of this:
- It seems to be the simplest instrument
- it's (on average) the worst played instrument (not to mention that it's possibly the hardest to play in tune)
- The transition to the musical maturity of "I'm going to stop tootling about and get serious about music" often coincides with the transition to a new instrument (possibly leading Ralex to see a deeper link where there isn't one)
Bottom line, if you treat tin whistle as a toy, at some point you're going to have to settle for
a) moving to another instrument
b) staying at a very basic mastery of music (not that there is anything wrong with that)
c) stop treating the tin whistle as a toy
Three other thoughts:
Ralex is totally right in looking for a wider range of opinions than those of a French forum (but there is, by and large, little lacking in french irish music playing, except perhaps a bit of a sense of humour - I lived for 4 years in France and learnt irish music there)
Many people have preconceptions about their limitations and might choose tin whislte as something "even they" could play - I know I did. Now I'm quite happy playing flute, whislte and concertina
When learning a new instrument it's very tempting to "just play tunes" on the one you know. When I'm practiciing concertina, I tend to arrive at a point where I say Feck It and pick up the flute. It's a good thing to give up the whistle as much as possible when playing flute - just like I'll have to put the flute away and only play concertina, at some point in my musical life
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Oh... this is the highest standard of musicality I have heard by anyone on any instrument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIJnafX5ubw (Donncha o briain)
(the slow air is amazing and the reel will blow your socks off)
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Tirno
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
That is amazing, Tirno. I have no idea why I haven't bought his CD. I think I may have to now ...
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Can you earn a living playing it?
If Yes, then it is.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by c.g.
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
the reel is a cracker indeed... brilliant player, amazing playing.
I totaly agree with what u said above. Thank you for your peacefull anwser
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Cheers, Tirno! That clip's on here as well ~ http://shop.rte.ie/Product/Come-West-Along-The-Road-Vol1-DVD/1284/2220.8
More whistle;
Matt Molloy & Paddy Keenan (@1:04 just before Otter's Holt)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnhwIv4-d-Q
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Can we not settle this by agreeing that all musical instruments are really just toys? I mean ... what do you do with them? You "play" them. You "play" on them.
Last christmas, my daughter (8) was given by her grandparents what I was (before reading this thread) rather disparagingly refering to as a "toy" guitar. But thinking about it, that's not really fare. I don't think it was made as a toy guitar, I mean it's not one of those plastic things with buttons you press that play horrid midi sample things. It's made of wood and got a proper set of strings on it and proper machine heads etc. But I was calling it a toy because it will never ever play anywhere near in tune. It's a useless plank. A waste of the £20 it cost.
But is it a toy? Of course it's a bloody toy. My mistake was being disparaging about it. So yeah, it's a toy. But it's just a shlt toy. Unlike my violin, which is a very very good toy indeed. However, although my daughters guitar is a waste of a mere £20 and my violin is an excellently well spent thousands, it makes me think about the wonder of how fantastic it is that with a bit of effort and a bit of luck, you can get one of the most excellent and versatile and beautifully simple and useful toys in the whole wide world for under a fiver. All you have to do is play with it with as much imagination as you can muster. Bloody marvelous.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I like that ~ we play. Now, if I can only get my *professional* musician friends to recognize the same.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Ralex, Thanks for the opportunity to let us tell you how dumb you sound when you say that a tin whistle is not an instrument. Next, you'll be looking down on harmonicas, I suppose. And then what, banjos?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
If you know any "professional" musicians who you think have lost their ability to "play", remind them of that moment when they were 5 and they first found out that Lego actually employed grow ups to have a career playing with lego.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Talk about a non sequitur Mr. Brown.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Cheers, Llig. I'll pass that along. It's hilarious since I was playing with some Legos, just today.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Ah, llig: what about those who purport to "perform" on their chosen instrument, rather than play?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by jtrout
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"Can we not settle this by agreeing that all musical instruments are really just toys? I mean ... what do you do with them? You "play" them. You "play" on them."
The etymolgy of the word 'play' suggests a wider application than just handling toys. Eg, 'exercise', 'to carry out or practise an action', 'perform', 'execute a movement' etc. Then again, the etymology of 'toy' would suggest a wider application than a child's plaything.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Could you look up Lego, Weejie?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"1934
The company and its products now adopt the name LEGO, formed from the Danish words "LEg GOdt" ("play well"). Later, it is realised that in Latin the word means "I put together". "
http://aboutus.lego.com/en-us/factsfigures/timeline1930.aspx
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Could make a "play"-able whistle out of LEGOs?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by jtrout
Weejie, don't want to be boorish; but
" . .. Opposed to work (v.) since late 14c."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=play
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Is building with Legos a performance?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
If I used the Legos that have shapes, like airplane wings, as opposed to the ones that are just differently sized and shaped bricks, would that be considered untraditional?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
There are traditionalists in the Lego world who don't like all these custom pieces and fancy kits that are designed to be built only one way. So yeah, TSS, there are "keepers of the traditional flame" amongst the toy collectors of the world as well as the musicians of the world.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Play with Legos!
http://www.engadget.com/2005/05/13/music-thing-musical-instruments-made-of-lego/
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by mulcreevy
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"Weejie, don't want to be boorish; but
" . .. Opposed to work (v.) since late 14c."
"
One definintion doth not a summer make.
Look at the others definitions on that site. Each one is valid. Play your cards right and you'll learn something (ot are cards toys?).
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
(or are cards toys?)
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Ralex,
You came here with a rope around your neck and now you're looking for someone to kick the chair.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Ralex, by the way, what's the French site called ?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
OED play:
I. Exercise, brisk or free movement or action.
1. a. Active bodily exercise or movement; brisk and vigorous action of the body or limbs, as in fighting, fencing, dancing, leaping, etc.
b. The action of lightly and briskly wielding or plying a weapon in fencing or combat. Freq. as the second element in compounds, as †lind-play, sabre-play, sword-play, etc.
c. Ornithol. The mating display of a male bird; (in quots.) the elaborate courtship display of the male capercaillie. Obs.
2. In form plaw. An act or example of boiling; effervescence; ebullition. Obs. (Eng. regional (E. Anglian) in later use).
3.
a. Action, operation, activity, working (often implying rapid movement, rapid change, or variety). Freq. with of
b. to hold (also keep) in play : to keep (a person, military force, etc.) occupied or engaged; to distract, delay, or keep at bay (an enemy) by doing this. Also † to keep (a person) play.
c. to bring (also call, put) into (also †in) play : to bring into operation, make active, begin to exercise. to come into (also †in) play : (chiefly of a thing) to come into operation or effect, become active.
4.
a. Rapid, brisk, or light movement, usually quickly changing or intermittent; elusive change or transition of light or colour; light motion about or impact upon something
b. Play of light or colour (see sense 4a). Obs.
5.
a. Free action; freedom, opportunity, or room for action; scope for activity.
b. Free or unimpeded movement, esp. from or about a fixed point; the proper or possible movement of a mechanism or a part of a living body. Now chiefly used for the movement of muscles in the human body.
c. Esp. in a joint, mechanism, etc.: freedom or room for movement; the space in or through which a thing can or does move.
d. slang (orig. U.S.). Attention or patronage; a show of interest; publicity.
II. Exercise or action for enjoyment or recreation, and related senses.
6.
a. Exercise or activity engaged in for enjoyment or recreation rather than for a serious or practical purpose; amusement, entertainment, diversion; (in later use esp.) the spontaneous or organized recreational activity of children; (colloq.) an instance or period of such activity. at play: engaged in playing.
b. Enjoyment, pleasure, joy, delight; a source of delight. Obs. (Sc. in later use).
c. Sexual activity or dalliance; foreplay; amorous recreation
7
a. A particular sport, game, pastime, or recreational activity. Now chiefly Psychol.
†b. Chiefly Sc. A rural entertainment or festivity; a country fair, esp. one involving games, pageantry, drama, etc. Obs.
And it goes on and on.....later:
IV. The playing of music or a musical or other recording.
18.
†a. Performance on a musical instrument. Cf. playing n. Obs.
b. colloq. The act of playing a record, video cassette, compact disc, etc.
So, I don't think it is a word that is simply the opposite of work, and it doesn't follow that anything which is the object of play is a toy.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Oh - whilst the OED is at hand:
whistle, n.
1.
a. A tubular wind instrument of wood, metal or other hard substance, having a more or less shrill tone, which is produced by impact of air upon a sharp edge; a shrill-toned pipe. Formerly also = pipe or flute.
But you do get toy whistles. I suppose.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
While you're at it, Weejie, how about a vegan soda bread recipe?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ∅
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ∅
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"While you're at it, Weejie, how about a vegan soda bread recipe?"
There doesn't seem to be one in the OED, but if you are really keen:
http://dairyfreecooking.about.com/b/2009/11/10/vegan-irish-soda-bread-recipe.htm
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
OP
I don't play the tin whistle but i've heard it played. It about ripped my heart out of my chest. A terrible beautiful solo by one of my session mates. I feel in love with the tin whistle that night. Anything that can sing like that, is a "real" instrument in my book.
Yes it's small, and cheap. What does small and cheap have to do with it's musicality? Whoever created it OBVIOUSLY new what they were doing. Not being snarky, just making points. Also, Of all the instruments that I feel can relate the most to a humans' voice in it's capablilities and the mechanics, Tin Whistle is one of them. The only other one I can think of is the Violin.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I don't condone exploiting soy beans for their milk, Weejie, so that one won't do.
Thanks, anyway.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ∅
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
If there's one thing that really feckin annoys me on this website it's people using words very plainly and getting dictionaries copypasted at them.
I know what I meant when I used the words play and toy and so did you and everyone else.
play means this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_nc4-xxdMA
not these hapless miserable fools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYe4zavOQUA&feature=related
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
(Incidentally, Did I recognise Des Hurley sitting down there at 18 seconds? You have to freeze frame it)
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"I know what I meant when I used the words play and toy and so did you and everyone else."
You were crystal clear in your meaning, sir.
But I, for one, do not believe "play" (in the sense you use the word here) applies to much of the music from many here at the Mustard.
It definately does not cover all that I do.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Piece
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I'm not so sure it covers all that I do either, but I can strive for it.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
funny how this kind of question reappears from time to time, not only with tin whistle... in 35 years of playing, I've heard things like "is melodeon an musical instrument ?" is snare drum a musical instrument ? and so on, with jew's harp,... I quit the Music school in my home town when I was 18, because I was playing (more striving to play
) O'Carolan tunes on the lever harp, and the Director came in and told me "it's nice, but play some real music now"... and I'll say it again and again, it's never the instrument, always the player : if you consider TW like a toy, you'll treat it as such... and if you consider it as an instrument, then you'll play music on it... getting sometimes quite fed up with this stuff of postulating this and that... if you enjoy playing the instrument, and play it sufficiently well for other people to enjoy it as well, then it's an instrument AND you're playing music with it...
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Nikita Pfister
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"If there's one thing that really feckin annoys me on this website it's people using words very plainly and getting dictionaries copypasted at them.
I know what I meant when I used the words play and toy and so did you and everyone else."
Aye, Michael, but you know some people on this website can't resist showing off their mad copy-paste skillz.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
nice post Nikita thx
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Of course anything can be an instrument and you can play music on anything, not least because the definition of music is completely subjective, i.e. you can call call any sound music, even silence, and for you then, it is music.
But the pertinent question is, what kind of music? For example, you can play music on a drum, but you can't play tunes on it. However, the answer to the question here, the answer that nobody who knows anything about Irish music would ever in a million years disagree with, is that you can play Irish traditional music to the very peak of the highest of its standards on a simple tin whistle costing less than a fiver.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
In conclusion, tin whistle is an instrument
clap clap
end of the topic
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Ralex
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Not so quickly Ralex, do you remember this question "Should I be punished for my narrowminded point of view ?"
All that remains now is to figure out what's the appropriate punishment
perhaps a month of playing the tin whistle through your left nostril (narine) would be a reasonable start...
or perhaps a months free subscription to thesession.org would work as well
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"If there's one thing that really feckin annoys me on this website it's people using words very plainly and getting dictionaries copypasted at them."
But you didn't use the "words" plainly, did you?
You conflated 'play' with 'toy' under the false logic:
"Toys are played with so all things played are toys".
That is why I mentioned the etymology of both words. It was followed by Babs coming out with:
"Weejie, don't want to be boorish; but
" . .. Opposed to work (v.) since late 14c.""
She didn't seem to fathom that "opposed to work" was but one definition of very many.
Hence the pasting from a dictionary. Some people do need it spelling out for them.
"I know what I meant when I used the words play and toy and so did you and everyone else."
Well, your words were:
"Can we not settle this by agreeing that all musical instruments are really just toys? I mean ... what do you do with them? You "play" them. You "play" on them"
And, yes, it was obvious what you meant. The problem was your understanding of the words you used. You seemed to forget that there are several meanings to both words, and they are not mutually dependent. You made a conclusion that was flawed.
No. Musical instruments are not "toys" - they can be used as toys, but they can also be used as "tools of the trade".
"Aye, Michael, but you know some people on this website can't resist showing off their mad copy-paste skillz."
If I could have linked to the plentiful OED definitions I would have done so. As this was not possible, I pasted them. There was no "showing off" involved. The abundance of definitions was the actual point being made.
"In conclusion, tin whistle is an instrument "
Well, I'm glad that has been cleared up.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"play means this"
"not these hapless miserable fools"
Both are examples of instruments being played.
Perhaps they are not both examples of traditional Irish music being played well. However, that is a matter of opinion - however much it might be a majority opinion.
The above quotes, however, do illustrate how you have moved the goalposts. If "musical instruments are toys" then the second of your YouTube examples certainly shows people playing with those toys. Now you seem to be saying that it is more than just "playing with them" and that "play" might have other connotations.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Did it ever occur to you that Michael was in fact playing with the word "play," perhaps even exploiting some of its ambiguity and multiple definitions?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"Did it ever occur to you that Michael was in fact playing with the word "play," perhaps even exploiting some of its ambiguity and multiple definitions? "
On the contrary. He was suggesting in that post that even his daugter's s**t guitar was a toy (though it wasn't sold as a toy) - and that it was a s**t toy because it didn't play in tune. Nowhere in that post is there any indication that there are other definitions of the word "play". The focus was on the word "toy" - and how it applied to instruments because you "played" them. It was narrowing the definition of "play".
The only thing he was exploiting was his own opinions - nothing new there.
Did it ever occur to you that my pasting the definitions of "play" was in response to Babs' post, not Mr Gill's?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
This is a mainly english language web site but music is international. If you are going to rely on dictionaries when arguing about a concept then I think you should look at how other the languages go about it. We 'play' an instrument and we 'play' a tune. They do those things in other places. How is they said in, say, French and Spanish ? Does that help ?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by David50
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
When you have finished with 'play' you could start on 'toy'.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by David50
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"If you are going to rely on dictionaries when arguing about a concept then I think you should look at how other the languages go about it."
The argument as to whether an instrument was a toy or not was based on the word "play" - when you base an argument on the meaning of a word, then a dictionary is a valid resource.
You have a valid point about the verb in other languages - but if you were to choose another Germanic language, you would come up against the same rationale - and that includes the word "toy".
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
OK
You can toy with a tune but you can't always tune a toy, unless a toy is an instrument for which you can instrument a tune or tune the instrument.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Sheesh weejie, I'm off to glasgow tomorrow and I sure hope I dinnae cross paths with any more feckin etymology pedants.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ...
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"Sheesh weejie, I'm off to glasgow tomorrow and I sure hope I dinnae cross paths with any more feckin etymology pedants."
Why not? Will it cause you to throw your toys out of the pram?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QYD6epArgQ
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/28797/comments#comment612097
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"(Incidentally, Did I recognise Des Hurley sitting down there at 18 seconds? You have to freeze frame it)"
Yes, you did
Who's everybody else? Some *very* classy playing there...
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Just a person
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Nae etymology pedants in Glasgow but I'm sure you can find a good vegan soda bread recipe.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Ah - from deep down in the comments on Michael's first vid:
"The musicians are;
Michael McGoldrick - Flute
Donal O'Connor - Fiddle
Grace Kelly - Whistle
James O'Grady - Bowl of Stew"
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Just a person
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"Nae etymology pedants in Glasgow but I'm sure you can find a good vegan soda bread recipe."
You can't know Glasgow too well. I learned everything from the Glasgow Etymology Pedants' Association. It was also the birthplace of John Jamieson.
As for vegan soda bread, they used to do a nice one in that place on Great Western Road before yon Danesh (of Darius ilk) folk started to make it more appealing to a wider clientele.
Still - if you object to milking soya coos, then bear in mind the pain that the grain goes through in the mill.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
First we should define the terms. M-W online says:
Definition of TOY
1obsolete a : flirtatious or seductive behaviour b : pastime; also : a sportive or amusing act : antic
2a : something (as a preoccupation) that is paltry or trifling b : a literary or musical trifle or diversion c : trinket, bauble
3: something for a child to play with
4: something diminutive; especially : a diminutive animal (as of a small breed or variety)
5: something that can be toyed with
6 Scottish : a headdress of linen or woollen hanging down over the shoulders and formerly worn by old women of the lower classes
Definition of INSTRUMENT
1: a device used to produce music; also : a singing voice
2 a : a means whereby something is achieved, performed, or furthered b : one used by another as a means or aid : DUPE, TOOL
3: IMPLEMENT; especially : one designed for precision work
4: a formal legal document (as a deed, bond, or agreement)
5 a : a measuring device for determining the present value of a quantity under observation b : an electrical or mechanical device used in navigating an airplane; especially : such a device used as the sole means of navigating
So I think it's a zebra handbag.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by yhaalhouse
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"So I think it's a zebra handbag."
It depends on the definition of zebra.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"So, I don't think it is a word that is simply the opposite of work, and it doesn't follow that anything which is the object of play is a toy."
Yes.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Does the man from Del Monte also play the whistle?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"Sheesh weejie, I'm off to glasgow tomorrow and I sure hope I dinnae cross paths with any more feckin etymology pedants."
I do hope I did not come off that way, Michael?
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by Piece
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
You probably misunderstood him, Piece. Sometimes it's hard to get the nuances behind the thick Manchester accent.
# Posted on November 15th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Weejie, earlier you described instruments as "tools of the trade." Now is probably the time to reflect on other meanings of the word "tool."
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
What's in your handbag?
". . . one used by another as a means or aid : DUPE, TOOL
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
You can reflect on as many tools as you like, dearie, if that turns you on.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tool a toy or an instrument ?
Well at least you understood her meaning.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"Well at least you understood her meaning."
It appears that you didn't.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
It's not rocket science.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Just as well.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Yes.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
So, apart from the original Clarke whistles, how many are still being manufactured in tinplate (tin plated steel)?
Dave Shaw's are nickel silver, so those are out.
# Posted on November 16th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNQCM4rgj3Q
Any instrument that can sound like Seamus makes this one sound (@1:15) isn't a toy. (Thanks to whoever posted this link a while back--it's wonderful in several ways.)
I have always felt the tin whistle was was one of, if not the, most expressive, emotional sounding instruments in ITM, played well. I know the fiddle, the flute and the pipes usually get higher billing, but a really well-played whistle just knocks me out.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by ayedbl
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Real men play real tin whistles, accept no substitutes! Clarke's rule!
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I enjoyed the irony in your man Seamus there talking about tunes surviving because they are great tunes and him then playing a tune that was packed full of clever bits but was really completely void of melody.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by ...
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Dogs bollox
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by kook
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
@Al. Looks like Dancha O'Biain was playing a nickel Generation. What was it you were saying about real men? Wasn't that a gorgeous clip, BTW?
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Men & their toys, it's nothing new.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Dammit, there's an 'r' in O'Briain. I'm sure there's a fada too. Hell of a whistle player.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Atahualpa ~ Dancha O'Biain?
If you need a good text editor check out Notepad++. I just began using the streamlined version. You can include plenty of bells & whistles, but then it gets buggy.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Thanks. Can it do fadas?
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
I don't know. I have a language bar application. I'm well into the beer now, but I'll see if I can sort out a link for where I got it.
I'll be back in a minute . . .
or I'll just go home to play tunes
. . .
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Goodnight!
For frak sake, I don't care. Try this;
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/mearchlar/windows.htm
If that doesn't work I'll be at home.
Don't bother trying to reach me there.
Cheers,
Babs
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
"I enjoyed the irony in your man Seamus there talking about tunes surviving because they are great tunes and him then playing a tune that was packed full of clever bits but was really completely void of melody."
Seems like a pretty transparent melody to me, MG. Keep working at it--you'll get it.
Tum tiddly um tum, tiddly tiddly um tum, ...
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by ayedbl
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
On the other hand, I do acknowledge your right to squelch joy and enthusiasm wherever you find it rearing it's ugly head, MG.
# Posted on November 17th 2011 by ayedbl
Re: Is the tin whistle a toy or an instrument ?
Both, depends on the player.
# Posted on November 19th 2011 by Nicholas Jelinek