I'm looking at getting into the concertina and I want to find an instrument without spending thousands of dollars (I'd love to find something for $1200 or less).
I've been playing instruments in stores, but I've noticed that many of them produce a sound closer to an accordion than what I'm used to hearing both live and in recordings. They seem to be missing what I can only describe as that distinctive concertina honk (and I do not mean to offend anyone with that distinction; I'm not using it as a pejorative here).
Can anyone tell me what's going on here? Is there something I'm missing or is this just how cheap concertinas sound? How much will I have to pay to find one that truly gives off that distinctive honking sound?
That's how cheap concertinas sound, all right. Flabby, unresponsive and boring. You can get a good sounding hybrid (solidly made but with accordion reeds rather than true concertina reeds) concertina for about $2,000. I doubt you'll find a good one for much less. If you do buy one for around $2,000 you will always be able to get close to what you paid for it if you lose interest or decide to step up to a better instrument. It will be very hard to recoup your investment on a cheaper instrument.
And if you want to play Irish music then you should definitely buy an Anglo rather than an English concertina.
David gave you the right answer without pointing it out explicitly: cheap concertinas sound like accordions because they're made with accordion reeds, which for some reason are mass-producible (or at least easier to make). Some people happily call these instruments - even nice ones like Edgley and Morse models - "concertina-shaped accordions", which may put them historically in a different but totally legitimate category of free reeds.
I mentioned recently that a decent rosewood-end Lachenal will probably be in the $3000 range, and I think that's still fair.
26 key Anglo Lachenal would cost about 900 euros, these are good instruments, and perfectly suitable for irish music, and are IMO good value for money.
True concertina reeds are made by hand. There are only a handful or two of people making reeds, and they do so to have a supply for their own instruments, which they are making from scratch.
Accordion reeds are made in factories using mass-production techniques. They don't demand the precision of concertina reeds.
I would prefer a hybrid Edgley, Tedrow, or a Morse - or a Norman or a Marcus - to the run of the mill old Lachenal that costs $3,000. The action is better on the new hybrids (with riveted action) and the sound is bright and clear, if a bit harsh.
However, neither the old Lachenals nor the newer hybrids compare well to top quality Wheatstones or Jeffries, or to the great new ones by such people as Jurgen Suttner, Colin Dipper, or Wally Carroll - but then you're up around $6,000 to start with. Worth every penny.... but only if you have enough pennies.
I agree that for a beginning player a 26 key Anglo Lachenal is good value. I hate the cheap Chinese and German concertinas.
This one on Ebay now looks pretty good:
Lachenal 28 button C/G Anglo Concertina @ 1905
Item condition: Used
Time left: 1 day 13 hours (Nov 10, 201101:09:50 PST)
Price: GBP 550.00 - Approximately US $881.70
Buy It Now
I've never quite understood what makes concertina reeds that difficult to make. Now, I've never tried making one but as far as I can see, they are simply in essence, a strip of metal that vibrates, held in a clamp.
Surely they can't be all that difficult to manufacture and tune as many thousands were made back in the 1800's and early 1900's. I would imagine that the strips of metal were roughly stamped to size and then fine tuned individually by filing? Someone doing batches of these would probably get pretty good at it and knock them off quickly.
Hussar, as with other wooden musical instruments, I suspect that you also need to consider which woods were used for the Reed beds & the instrument itself, when examining where the fine tone comes from, when comparing quality instruments against budget models.
IMHO you can do a lot worse than a steel reed Jones, examples can be found on certain web sites in acceptable condition for a few hundred pounds in the UK. Don't know about USA.
They tend to be a bit slow to sound but make the authentic noise you want.
Make sure the bellows are sound as they tend to start at £500+ to replace.
Steve Dickinson at Wheatstone is a sound person to ask, although he is very suspicious of low priced instruments. He also makes and sells the best reeds and most other spares you could want. Otherwise you can take out a second mortgage.
Hussar, it's true that they used to pump out concertina reeds, but I'll suggest two things.
One - as weird as it sounds, concertinas were probably a bigger market, with more people making them, at the time. Concertinas became almost immediately popular, and were sold everywhere; people like the Salvation Army bought bucketloads of them. In the last century though, concertinas have been pretty negligible. They've definitely been around, played for singing, Morris dancing, etc., but in Irish music for instance, even with the huge upturn in popularity in the last half-century or so, it still seems to be there are many fewer players than once there were.
Second...they made lots of reeds for a lot of instruments. A lot of them probably sucked! And even today you can find plenty of vintage instruments with poor reeds. It happens. Poor materials or poor manufacturing can be consequences of large-scale production. Cost cutting.
The Rochelle is not made by The Button Box; it's a product of Concertina Connection Inc. in Valleyford, Washington that can be bought from The Button Box.
The Button Box is not in Boston; it's in Sunderland, Massachusetts 80 miles away.
The Rochelle is made in China. It looks, feels, and plays as if it were made in China. It is not a product of Concertina Connection Inc., though they are the importer and distributor.
I have never played a Jones that I thought was worth owning. That said, it isn't made in China and in general it's probably a bit better than the Rochelle.
You know, you can buy a flute made in Pakistan for $50, and a set of pipes made there for $100. If your kid expresses an interest in ITM and you'd like to discourage the kid from staying up late in pubs when he gets older then give him a Rochelle (or a Jones) concertina - or a Pakistani flute or set of pipes.
I have one of these also and as I said in another thread, it
is a concertina simulator, not a concertina.
David does have a point about putting off the kids. We tend to
give beginners crap instruments. I smashed my first clarinet on
the floor in frustration (age 10), but strangely my parents got me another one.
concertina reeds are time intensive to make. they are not just pieces of metal... every reed is a slightly different shape, with differing thicknesses and bends throughout the length of the tongue, even though you can't see it with an untrained eye.
sure, accordion reeds are hard to make, too, but there are thousands and thousand of people buying and selling accordions every day. there are many companies that specialized in making quality, hand-made accordion reeds in huge batches. they do this because there are customers to buy the reeds, and customers to buy the instruments that the reeds that are put into.
this is why the middle of the road concertinas are made with high-quality, hand-made accordion reeds: you can buy them on the open market! making your own in-house reeds doubles the cost of making the instrument, which would take very capable instruments out of the hands of intermediate players. this is why many accordion companies don't do it either.
also, a good hand-made accordion reed in a concertina is better than a poorly made concertina reed.
and again, just asking because I'm curious, but aren't concertina reeds very similar to harmonica reeds? I thought they were metal?
ha ha, metal can mean bronze, steel, brass.
I dunno Daiv, have you ever made concertina reeds? Looked at in the round, a concertina has many parts and these must take time to fashion and construct. So why don't the likes of Tedrow etc., just sit down for a few weeks and make a large batch of reeds? Could it really double the price??? Making one offs is time consuming but when items are produced in bulk, even when 'hand made', lots of time can be saved and the time per unit ratio drops dramatically.
Has anyone yet seen the new Anglos made with an English style lever system ( to cut out the sticking buttons ) & fitted Italian with reeds, for better response & tone. Costing nearer £900?. 1 with metal end plates & the other with mahogany wood
David Levine, I have seen a couple of concertinas made by Jones that were good, like all manufacturers they made differing qualities, some of them are slow due to broad reeds, but, others are not slow.
My First Concertina
My First Concertina
Howdy all!
I'm looking at getting into the concertina and I want to find an instrument without spending thousands of dollars (I'd love to find something for $1200 or less).
I've been playing instruments in stores, but I've noticed that many of them produce a sound closer to an accordion than what I'm used to hearing both live and in recordings. They seem to be missing what I can only describe as that distinctive concertina honk (and I do not mean to offend anyone with that distinction; I'm not using it as a pejorative here).
Can anyone tell me what's going on here? Is there something I'm missing or is this just how cheap concertinas sound? How much will I have to pay to find one that truly gives off that distinctive honking sound?
Thank you!
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by MooglePower
Re: My First Concertina
You ought to go to concertina.net and ask this same question.
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by Ann M.
Re: My First Concertina
That's how cheap concertinas sound, all right. Flabby, unresponsive and boring. You can get a good sounding hybrid (solidly made but with accordion reeds rather than true concertina reeds) concertina for about $2,000. I doubt you'll find a good one for much less. If you do buy one for around $2,000 you will always be able to get close to what you paid for it if you lose interest or decide to step up to a better instrument. It will be very hard to recoup your investment on a cheaper instrument.
And if you want to play Irish music then you should definitely buy an Anglo rather than an English concertina.
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by David Levine
Re: My First Concertina
David gave you the right answer without pointing it out explicitly: cheap concertinas sound like accordions because they're made with accordion reeds, which for some reason are mass-producible (or at least easier to make). Some people happily call these instruments - even nice ones like Edgley and Morse models - "concertina-shaped accordions", which may put them historically in a different but totally legitimate category of free reeds.
I mentioned recently that a decent rosewood-end Lachenal will probably be in the $3000 range, and I think that's still fair.
--Dan
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by Danjo
Re: My First Concertina
26 key Anglo Lachenal would cost about 900 euros, these are good instruments, and perfectly suitable for irish music, and are IMO good value for money.
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: My First Concertina
What's so special about the concertina reed that makes them hard to find?
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by MooglePower
Re: My First Concertina
True concertina reeds are made by hand. There are only a handful or two of people making reeds, and they do so to have a supply for their own instruments, which they are making from scratch.
Accordion reeds are made in factories using mass-production techniques. They don't demand the precision of concertina reeds.
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by boxist
Re: My First Concertina
Ah okay, gotcha. Sounds complicated!
My best bet, then, is to search for an older concertina in nice condition?
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by MooglePower
Re: My First Concertina
I would prefer a hybrid Edgley, Tedrow, or a Morse - or a Norman or a Marcus - to the run of the mill old Lachenal that costs $3,000. The action is better on the new hybrids (with riveted action) and the sound is bright and clear, if a bit harsh.
However, neither the old Lachenals nor the newer hybrids compare well to top quality Wheatstones or Jeffries, or to the great new ones by such people as Jurgen Suttner, Colin Dipper, or Wally Carroll - but then you're up around $6,000 to start with. Worth every penny.... but only if you have enough pennies.
I agree that for a beginning player a 26 key Anglo Lachenal is good value. I hate the cheap Chinese and German concertinas.
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by David Levine
Re: My First Concertina
This one on Ebay now looks pretty good:
Lachenal 28 button C/G Anglo Concertina @ 1905
Item condition: Used
Time left: 1 day 13 hours (Nov 10, 201101:09:50 PST)
Price: GBP 550.00 - Approximately US $881.70
Buy It Now
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by David Levine
Re: My First Concertina
I absolutely agree with David, a Edgley or Tedrow is a very fast, well built instrument that will serve you for many years to come.
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: My First Concertina
I've never quite understood what makes concertina reeds that difficult to make. Now, I've never tried making one but as far as I can see, they are simply in essence, a strip of metal that vibrates, held in a clamp.
Surely they can't be all that difficult to manufacture and tune as many thousands were made back in the 1800's and early 1900's. I would imagine that the strips of metal were roughly stamped to size and then fine tuned individually by filing? Someone doing batches of these would probably get pretty good at it and knock them off quickly.
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: My First Concertina
Hussar, as with other wooden musical instruments, I suspect that you also need to consider which woods were used for the Reed beds & the instrument itself, when examining where the fine tone comes from, when comparing quality instruments against budget models.
Cheers,
Dick
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: My First Concertina
IMHO you can do a lot worse than a steel reed Jones, examples can be found on certain web sites in acceptable condition for a few hundred pounds in the UK. Don't know about USA.
They tend to be a bit slow to sound but make the authentic noise you want.
Make sure the bellows are sound as they tend to start at £500+ to replace.
Steve Dickinson at Wheatstone is a sound person to ask, although he is very suspicious of low priced instruments. He also makes and sells the best reeds and most other spares you could want. Otherwise you can take out a second mortgage.
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by greg sheils
Re: My First Concertina
Hussar, it's true that they used to pump out concertina reeds, but I'll suggest two things.
One - as weird as it sounds, concertinas were probably a bigger market, with more people making them, at the time. Concertinas became almost immediately popular, and were sold everywhere; people like the Salvation Army bought bucketloads of them. In the last century though, concertinas have been pretty negligible. They've definitely been around, played for singing, Morris dancing, etc., but in Irish music for instance, even with the huge upturn in popularity in the last half-century or so, it still seems to be there are many fewer players than once there were.
Second...they made lots of reeds for a lot of instruments. A lot of them probably sucked! And even today you can find plenty of vintage instruments with poor reeds. It happens. Poor materials or poor manufacturing can be consequences of large-scale production. Cost cutting.
Probably some kernels of truth in there?
--Dan
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by Danjo
Re: My First Concertina
Why hasn't anybody said anything about those Rochelle Anglos made by the Button Box there in Boston?
I got one 3 or 4 years ago for about $400 USD. It satisfied my concertina curiousity and as far as I can tell, plays well enough.
and again, just asking because I'm curious, but aren't concertina reeds very similar to harmonica reeds? I thought they were metal?
anyway, just a suggestion on trying a Rochelle from the Button Box
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by Nate Ryan
Re: My First Concertina
The Rochelle is not made by The Button Box; it's a product of Concertina Connection Inc. in Valleyford, Washington that can be bought from The Button Box.
The Button Box is not in Boston; it's in Sunderland, Massachusetts 80 miles away.
Other than that, we're batting 1000 here.
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by ∅
Re: My First Concertina
The Rochelle is made in China. It looks, feels, and plays as if it were made in China. It is not a product of Concertina Connection Inc., though they are the importer and distributor.
I have never played a Jones that I thought was worth owning. That said, it isn't made in China and in general it's probably a bit better than the Rochelle.
You know, you can buy a flute made in Pakistan for $50, and a set of pipes made there for $100. If your kid expresses an interest in ITM and you'd like to discourage the kid from staying up late in pubs when he gets older then give him a Rochelle (or a Jones) concertina - or a Pakistani flute or set of pipes.
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by David Levine
Surely they can't be all that difficult to manufacture ...
Sure and what's a flute but a piece of wood reamed out and with holes put in along it's length. What's so difficult about that?
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by David Levine
Re: My First Concertina
I have one of these also and as I said in another thread, it
is a concertina simulator, not a concertina.
David does have a point about putting off the kids. We tend to
give beginners crap instruments. I smashed my first clarinet on
the floor in frustration (age 10), but strangely my parents got me another one.
# Posted on November 10th 2011 by Hup
Re: My First Concertina
concertina reeds are time intensive to make. they are not just pieces of metal... every reed is a slightly different shape, with differing thicknesses and bends throughout the length of the tongue, even though you can't see it with an untrained eye.
sure, accordion reeds are hard to make, too, but there are thousands and thousand of people buying and selling accordions every day. there are many companies that specialized in making quality, hand-made accordion reeds in huge batches. they do this because there are customers to buy the reeds, and customers to buy the instruments that the reeds that are put into.
this is why the middle of the road concertinas are made with high-quality, hand-made accordion reeds: you can buy them on the open market! making your own in-house reeds doubles the cost of making the instrument, which would take very capable instruments out of the hands of intermediate players. this is why many accordion companies don't do it either.
also, a good hand-made accordion reed in a concertina is better than a poorly made concertina reed.
# Posted on November 10th 2011 by daiv
Re: My First Concertina
and again, just asking because I'm curious, but aren't concertina reeds very similar to harmonica reeds? I thought they were metal?
ha ha, metal can mean bronze, steel, brass.
# Posted on November 10th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour
Re: My First Concertina
I dunno Daiv, have you ever made concertina reeds? Looked at in the round, a concertina has many parts and these must take time to fashion and construct. So why don't the likes of Tedrow etc., just sit down for a few weeks and make a large batch of reeds? Could it really double the price??? Making one offs is time consuming but when items are produced in bulk, even when 'hand made', lots of time can be saved and the time per unit ratio drops dramatically.
# Posted on November 10th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: My First Concertina
Here's a concise explanation by concertina maker Rich Morse of the challenges involved in concertina-reed making.
http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?s=fdc00d4716ca22f438c3a995d7ddaf6f&showtopic=4894&st=0&p=47843&#entry47843
# Posted on November 10th 2011 by ∅
Re: My First Concertina
Has anyone yet seen the new Anglos made with an English style lever system ( to cut out the sticking buttons ) & fitted Italian with reeds, for better response & tone. Costing nearer £900?. 1 with metal end plates & the other with mahogany wood
# Posted on November 12th 2011 by accordianman
Re: My First Concertina
mmmmm I think I see a plug
# Posted on November 12th 2011 by bazouki dave
Re: My First Concertina
David Levine, I have seen a couple of concertinas made by Jones that were good, like all manufacturers they made differing qualities, some of them are slow due to broad reeds, but, others are not slow.
# Posted on November 13th 2011 by Joseph Tailyour