I dont think you are going to get any thoughtful feed back.
Is this humour ?
When does the open season for foolish would be humourous posters begin ?
About now I should think
It´s very hard for me to give `thoughtful feedback´ because I found these four minutes extremely hard to stand. Maybe they can sing but it goes against anything that I love in traditional music; besides, the performance is neither funny nor particularly engaging - and why do they do these strange gyrating, totally unmotivated moves and turns? Celtic Woman appears traditional in comparison with them. However, the tunes are: Arkansas Traveller, Flop-Eared Mule (I´m not quite sure about this one),Hop High Ladies, Polly Wolly Doodle (not a Southern song), Little Liza jane, back to Arkansas Traveller and Hop High Ladies, Old dan Tucker, Turkey in the Straw, Yankee Doodle (definitely not Southern), Buffalo Gals (Western/pioneer song), and again Arkansas Traveller.
Surprises me that people actually seem to be paying for that - this audience probably would not like these tunes so much if there were played on banjo and fiddle.
If it's the OP's purpose to advocate for voice as an instrument in traditional music, s/he might give more consideration to the tunes this forum actually focuses on. There's no shortage of material.
I love this kind of singing, from Lambert Hendricks and Ross right through to Manhattan Transfer, and for example, enjoy the new a capella singing competition show on US television called "Sing Off."
But this is the wrong website to post it for comments. Even though some of the folk songs being sung are old traditional ones, this music is a number of degrees removed from the type of music the website was established to discuss.
I think somebody was humming "We wish you a Merry Christmas" in there at some point.
How about the shock therapy to look forward when it's your turn to hold the microphone towards the audience.
Unlike AmeriCeltic, or whatever his name is, my ideal group would not include a tenor banjo ( which after all was not used in Irish music until 1950's, therefore is NOT traditional )............
Between this thread and the history one, I'm beginning to feel like a native besieged by a missionaries who preach their own gibberish without bothering to notice--let alone learn about--local customs.
There was no point in naming the tunes--they're all very common (to the point of banality) and poorly performed by vocalists clearly dabbling in traditional music.
The presumption that participants in this forum need this sort of edification is arrogant, errant, and misguided.
"I'm beginning to feel like a native besieged by a missionaries who preach their own gibberish without bothering to notice--let alone learn about--local customs"
>Could not have said it better, Will.
Yeah, but with respect Will, I felt it didn't need saying. WE all knew...but maybe americeltic didn't know. Hence me not taking any of this seriously.
How can you be "partly" Irish? - were you partly born there?.....your head started to get borned then your mam boarded a flight to the states where the rest of you was borned?
I don't care what anyone else thinks - I enjoyed it. But to call it trad would be stretching things close to their elastic limit; Irish, most definitely not. Neither is it high art music - it's just a bit of well-executed fun. Is it relevant to this discussion board? Only inasmuch as it serves as an example of how traditional tunes can be turned into something that is not traditional music.
Would I go to see them? It depends on the price - I'd rather spend my money on a good trad gig.
@ AmeriCeltic: "Thanks for the info, but where does our host say this forum is for tunes only?"
Exhibit A:
Load the home page ((http://www.thesession.org/) and you'll see that it says "The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes."
Exhibit B:
Click on the highlighted word "tunes" there, or on the navigation bar to the right of this page. You will land on the Tunes database page for this site. Search for any common session tune (or indeed, "song" if you want to try it). You'll find a page with navigation tabs for ABC and sheet music notation. You won't find lyrics, and you won't find chords.
There are other sites out there dedicated to the singing of songs, and you're just batting your head against the wall if you continue to push this agenda here. There are some Irish trad sessions that encourage singers (or at least one or two songs), and others where the instrumentalists want to focus on the tunes, it's that simple.
You're not going to win friends or make conversions to the "primacy of song" if you ask people who gather to play melodies together, not to play those melodies so you can sing a song instead..
In the session I help co-host, we have a simple, informal rule about singing. If someone wants to put down their instrument, and favor us with a song, a capella / Sean Nós style, then one or two of those per session is a fine thing. But if we melody players have to put down our instruments, then the singer is going to do that too. It's amazing how effective this is, in keeping the folkie singer/guitarists at bay.
I'm with the Peat Creature. I enjoyed it. I think it's totally unfair to say it was "poorly performed". It was bloody good of its own type. The Swingle Singers have always been at the top of their particular game, and I would pay to go to see them.
Nothing to do with trad, of course, but so what?
Mind you, I simply don't understand the original question. But then, I can't really stand any sort of quasi-metaphysical crap. So, I don't go for this "the human voice is the oldest instrument" nonsense. No it isn't. The word "instrument" is used for when we emploiy an object other than ourselves to make music. The voice is the voice. End of.
By the way, can I make a plea for you two to get a login name each? It becomes terribly confusing when you take it in turns to post using the same user name.
They strike me as being the James Galway of diddling.
Which does raise a question: what happened to diddling/mouth music in Irish tradition? It hung on to the present day in both Scots- and Gaelic-speaking Scotland but I can't think of any Irish exponents of it. Or for that matter any American ones, except for fiddlers throwing in an occasional verse of singing into a basically instrumental performance.
Comments on the performance style aside. The second tune is College Hornpipe (Sailor's hornpipe...Popeye's hornpipe). No one named that. Amazing....
Those who don't know this group really ought to hunt up some of their performances of baroque and classical instrumental pieces. You may not like them, or you may, but they are quite astonishing in a variety of ways. Sort of like the knowledge, and lack of knowledge here at mustard
I named it, I love it; just didn't share it with the board.
By the way, don't you know a good way to index the titles from an abc file? I was reading something earlier on the abcusers group.
@Conical bore So, are the diddling posts by Will Harmon inappropriate for this forum because they are voiced, or is there sufficient flexibilty to all the voicing of traditional tunes to be discussed?
"What happened to diddling/mouth music in Irish tradition"
I always include a verse or two of diddling in each session. Sometimes because I forget the lyrics, sometimes intentionally.
At the session I co-host, http://www.thesession.org/sessions/display/2960 the proprietor prefers a mix of tunes and songs for two reasons: Firstly, because there was a near-brawl shouting match between two competing factions about 1 year ago, resulting in no-one attending his Sunday session for some months, and beer sales dropped. Since both groups were non-singers, he now associates all instrumentalists with these behaviors. Secondly, since we adopted the 'Round Robin' MO, things have run very smoothly, the mix has been more 50/50, and beer sales are up.
True, it is a struggle to get the other singing guitar players to learn to finger-pick or flat-pick the melodies as I do, but enough of them are trying to learn from me that I have continued the struggle.
@ ethical blend I'll just sign my posts too.
Tony Becker
www.AmeriCeltic.net
www.facebook.com/AmeriCeltic
@Tony Becker/AmeriCeltic: "So, are the diddling posts by Will Harmon inappropriate for this forum because they are voiced, or is there sufficient flexibilty to all the voicing of traditional tunes to be discussed?"
Tony, it's about disruption of the event, and how one fits into an existing session scene or doesn't fit in.
When the melody players around the table are trying to remember a tune mentioned by name, it's not unusual to hear some impromptu vocal diddling while someone tries to remember how it goes. Then they launch into the tune on a proper melody instrument. That's the usual modern context for diddling at a session.
Asking all the melody players in an Irish trad session to sit on their hands and stop playing, while a singer gives a performance, is disruptive. Any backers at the session might be able to find the chords to the song, but what are the pure melody instrument players supposed to do... launch into jazz improv? That's a completely different situation, and it's why "mixed" sessions usually don't work.
You want me to play as backup for you as a singer? No problem, but let's negotiate fees, because I get paid to do that. I have a gig like that coming up next week. I go to sessions to play music for fun, where I can meld with a group of like-minded melody players, and I don't have to feed the egos of singers.
@Greenwiggle. I admit, I did a brief stint in an a cappella group at uni, and I have all the admiration in the world for people who can do it well. It's really hard. Don't think so? If you sing, even a little bit, try singing with others and staying on pitch singing one thing while they sing something else. Still, doesn't mean that an a cappella group is any more relevant to what is discussed on the Mustard Board than "Horse Outside." Probably less.
@Tony. Dude, you're showing an emphatic refusal to "get it." You're like that guy who waltzes into a session he's never been to before and, without waiting to see what the regulars are playing, or how they're playing it, proceeds to start a zillion of his own tunes or songs that don't fit into the "culture" of that particular session. And all the regulars are sitting their thinking, "What an arse." We all know that guy. You don't want to be that guy. Even if he says, "This is what we do at MY session," it doesn't make him less of an arse. Nobody cares what he does at his session.
The fact that the singers and tune players at your pub, just one wee pub in California, had a row and the solution to the row was to make it into a 50/50 round robin thing, has NO bearing on what happens in every other session in the world. None. Not even a little bit. I'm glad the solution worked and both the musicians and the pub are now happy. But most of the regulars on this message board would probably avoid your session, because the song circle thing isn't what they like to do. Not saying it's wrong. It's just not what they want in a musical night out. This has NOTHING to do with what people think is or isn't "traditional" and ONLY reflects what what they think is or isn't fun.
And when she sounds like she knows what she is about, well - that is just plain aggravating.
PS:
In principal, SS's point @ Tony bull'seyes one major Life Lesson - LISTEN FIRST.
Whether you are in a pub or a temple, it is good to listen to what is going on, especially from those who were there before you. Good sense, good manners.
The human voice is classed as an instrument, but a group of singers are not instrumentalists. In this case the human voice is being used to imitate instruments. Most of the melodies featured have already been named and as many of the tunes have Irish/Scottish/English origins they should be familiar to most Traditional Musicians. Miss McLeod’s, The De’il among the Tailors. The Sailor’s Hornpipe to name a few. The particular group featured is the Swingle Singers, one of the finest acapella singing groups in the world. It takes many hours of practice to perfect that type of singing. Sad to say their expertise seems to be wasted on this forum. They may not be everybody’s cup of tea but to refer to their singing as crap…well really.
"Tony, it's about disruption of the event, and how one fits into an existing session scene or doesn't fit in."
I completely agree with this, and publish a weekly email newsletter, listing all the Northern California sessions I know of, and in that newsletter I take pains to detail whether the expectation at each session is for tunes only, a few tunes, of a mix of song and tunes, with the express intent of calibrating expectations appropriately.
@TheSilverSpear & Piece
I do, in fact, 'get this'. Moreover, I maintain correspondence with the organizers of all these sessions, have attended most at one time or another. The generally appreciate this service, as it tends to stop the sort of inappropriate behavior you describe.
It is in fact difficult to keep the non-singers happy if there are too many songs. Ted an I use eseveral techniques.
Round Robin MO. Tune players call tunes, singers call songs, I call a mix of both.
Call for an instrumental break between verses, perhaps skipping a chorus, or after the chorus. With Star of the County Down, I do this after every chorus, and the instrumentalists take the entire verse and chorus.
Applaud for every tune.
Thank every instrumentalist personally for at the end of every session.
If someone were to show up at your session, they'd know what to expect. Or not to go. Which is great. Nothing worse than showing up at a session, hoping for a decent tune, and finding out that it's this circle of death, taking turns malarkey. I've been in that movie. It sucks. Sorry to be so negative, I just really hate playing in that context. I know lots of people really like that sort of thing, but not my cup of tea. Most trad players I know prefer a more organic type of session, where no one is "calling" anything. It has the downside -- less control means all sorts of crap can happen, like some w a nker shows up and hijacks things, but the upside is that music and creativity can happen in a way that is impossible the tightly controlled round robin set up.
You don't have to defend songs or their place in the tradition. Most people know they have a place in the tradition. They don't, in large numbers, have a place at a tune session, where the purpose is the communal activity of playing tunes, of connecting to your fellow musicians, not the "look at ME" activity of singing a song. Tradition has feck off to do with it so this thread here and the history one are both sincerely missing the point.
"You don't have to defend songs or their place in the tradition. Most people know they have a place in the tradition. They don't, in large numbers, have a place at a tune session, where the purpose is the communal activity of playing tunes, of connecting to your fellow musicians, not the "look at ME" activity of singing a song. Tradition has (nothing) to do with it..."
At the sessions I prefer, the singers are interested in EXACTLY the sort of communal activity you describe for tune sessions. It seems you have had negative experiences with singers, but in my experience, they can be just as much fun as instrumentalists; if there are some controls.
In practice, we only enforce the Round Robin rules when a abuser or oblivious violator is present, as it happened that September Sunday. The rest of the time, creativity reigns.
Tony, you do realize there are any number of sessions where musicians are devoted to playing tunes? I'm beginning to think you don't want to accept this simple fact.
"At the sessions I prefer, the singers are interested in EXACTLY the sort of communal activity you describe for tune sessions."
And that's fine. You go attend that session, and the people interested in playing tunes will attend another session. Believe me, we're all well aware that there are many "song circle" gatherings out there in the world.
But what does any of this have to do with the Mustard Board, which is dedicated to tune playing and not singing. Why are you here?
As Will Harmon noted earlier, all of this discussion about singers has the flavor of missionary work. We're not here to be converted. You play in the kind of session you want, and we'll play in ours. Okay?
Songs only become a "communal" activity if the instrumentalists are noodling away along with the song. And when that happens, it's usually sh*te. There are some people who can accompany a song on the fly but most can't. Including me, which is why I don't do it. And it's really not communal the same way playing a tune is. A song, in essence, is a performance, the singer demanding the audience's attention. While someone can always play w a nky tunes know one else knows and make it into a solo performance, usually tunes are communal, not about any one player.
This is why the best festivals have enough venues for the singers and tune players to have separate sessions. Everyone is happier that way.
"@TheSilverSpear & Piece
I do, in fact, 'get this'."
Well, maybe you do, Americelt, and maybe you do not.
But, giving you the benfit of the doubt, re-read my posting:
"In principal, SS's point @ Tony bull'seyes one major Life Lesson - LISTEN FIRST.
Whether you are in a pub or a temple, it is good to listen to what is going on, especially from those who were there before you. Good sense, good manners."
I was, if you read clearly, merely agreeing with the point, not chiming in with it being directed at you (nor your postings) specifically, sir.
Message repeats:
I was, if you read clearly, merely agreeing with the point, not chiming in with it being directed at you (nor your postings) specifically, sir.
@Piece I sincerely apolgize for the misunderstanding. Thanks for the correction, and for the support.
@TSS I certainly agree that separate sessions are easier for both, but in a pinch, offer the hope that we can still accommodate all, while helping the management to sell a few extra beers.
It's time for the session to begin at the Poet and Patriot, so I must sign off. I'll be offering a toast to Jeremy and session.org too.
Well, fair play to Americeltic for at least *displaying* that he has taken all this on board. And yes we did give him a bit of a hard time; but had he been guilty of half as much misdemeanors he still would have deserved at least twice as much as we gave him; thus proof that civilisation still inhabits these internet boards, so it's not all dog eats cat.
(I don't care whether the publican sells more beer on a session night. The music's not a promotional commodity, it's not "entertainment." It's either a part of the community the pub happens to occupy or it's not, and the publican either gets that or s/he doesn't and you'd be better off knocking the dust off tunes at another locale.)
I think what Danny is saying is that while you may not regard yourself as entertainment, the pub might. While I agree that the ideal situation is, of course, a landlord who simply appreciates the music and sees it as part of his or her community, the reality is that in the wonderful world that is our capitalistic society, pubs for the most part are looking for ways to sell more beer. Of course, it depends on what you want from the pub and if you demand nothing more than a space to play, they might worry less about the economics of it than if you demand £40 per session leader and a free pint.
It's not so easy to do as you say, and find a pub that appreciates the music for what it is, rather than an entertainment commodity. Doesn't happen in my fair city.
Addendum: I'm not saying that I'm going to play Star of the County Down, Wild Rover, etc. to keep the punters happy. If the pub demands that, then I am outta there. If punters demand it (as they do sometimes), I just tell them I don't know it. My point was that pubs can and do regard even tune sessions as commodities.
Hmm - SS, I get the feeling that (down here anyway) a pub landlord who is Irish and running an Irish pub views the hosting of a session not so much as a commodity (for making money) but more as a medallion, or trinket. "I run a REAL Irish pub - I host a trad music session evrey Tuesday [or whenever]" Much kudos is attached to it, especially if it's a good session. But that's fair enough, so long as they believe in it.
I don't think there is even that level of giving a sh*t about tune sessions amongst pub landlords in Glasgow. As you yourself surely know, to have a REAL Irish pub in Glasgow entails filling it with as much Celtic FC paraphernalia as you can. Pictures of Michael Collins, James Connolly, et. al. are nice as well.
I don't recall seeing a picture of Connolly in a pub, maybe I haven't looked closely enough, but - um, do they realize the man never touched a drop of alcohol in his entire life?
"Intensely interested?" I don't have any intense interest in pubs. Unless they serve really good beer. I have an intense interest in beer.
All I want out of a pub is the space to play and ideally, at least one free beer, although the latter doesn't happen at my regular session, which is a bit sh*t but we live with it. You don't need half a PhD thesis analysing this!
I have sung "An Crúiscín Lán", but I prefer "Minstrel Boy" (Thomas Moore") It was the favorite at McCafferty's Pub, near Macalester College in St. Paul, where I was first exposed to the prevailing mix of ITM and politics of the times.
Are these performers instrumentalists?
Are these performers instrumentalists?
There is one instrument all of us possess.
Can you name all the traditional tunes in this medley?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahFS3fDu0OY
Again, I'm looking for thoughtful feedback.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I dont think you are going to get any thoughtful feed back.
Is this humour ?
When does the open season for foolish would be humourous posters begin ?
About now I should think
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by bazouki dave
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
It´s very hard for me to give `thoughtful feedback´ because I found these four minutes extremely hard to stand. Maybe they can sing but it goes against anything that I love in traditional music; besides, the performance is neither funny nor particularly engaging - and why do they do these strange gyrating, totally unmotivated moves and turns? Celtic Woman appears traditional in comparison with them. However, the tunes are: Arkansas Traveller, Flop-Eared Mule (I´m not quite sure about this one),Hop High Ladies, Polly Wolly Doodle (not a Southern song), Little Liza jane, back to Arkansas Traveller and Hop High Ladies, Old dan Tucker, Turkey in the Straw, Yankee Doodle (definitely not Southern), Buffalo Gals (Western/pioneer song), and again Arkansas Traveller.
Surprises me that people actually seem to be paying for that - this audience probably would not like these tunes so much if there were played on banjo and fiddle.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by alexweger
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Correction last sentence: ..if they were played...
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by alexweger
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
AmeriCeltic, Are you on the right web site ?
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
A lot of well known tunes there but I'm afraid I couldn't last the whole way through.....
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
'AmeriCeltic, are you on the right web site?''
Shouldn't that read 'right planet'?
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
This isn't Irish music :/
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by fiddlelearner
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
In my ideal, there would be only three performers, one would be playing tenor banjo, another the fiddle, while I play tin whistle and guitar.
The dance moves are optional, and be preceded by several imperial pints.
Tony Becker
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@bazouki dave: I am under the impression that on this forum, it is always open season on all discussions!
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Ice cream and popcorn are sold in the foyer.....
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Popcorn?
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Snap! cross-post!
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
What about beer? I need lots of it.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by pipersgrip
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
There is also a lady wandering round the aisles selling popcorn.....
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Don't you mean 'isles', Danny?
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
If it's the OP's purpose to advocate for voice as an instrument in traditional music, s/he might give more consideration to the tunes this forum actually focuses on. There's no shortage of material.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnUOq0euqYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkChjAW0E0E&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yucVF8IMqi8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIN-kuAROzc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX18CMR1I9Y&feature=fvwrel
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I love this kind of singing, from Lambert Hendricks and Ross right through to Manhattan Transfer, and for example, enjoy the new a capella singing competition show on US television called "Sing Off."
But this is the wrong website to post it for comments. Even though some of the folk songs being sung are old traditional ones, this music is a number of degrees removed from the type of music the website was established to discuss.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I think somebody was humming "We wish you a Merry Christmas" in there at some point.
How about the shock therapy to look forward when it's your turn to hold the microphone towards the audience.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Ok, seriously, they are not instrumentalists. They are just mental. But then again they are singers so it goes with the territory.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Yes Mr. MacCruiskeen, she does that as well....climbing mountains and so forth. Dunno if she sells popcorn on those trips though.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Any choc ices left?
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Sorry, only albatross.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
And now for something completely different...
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by john knoss
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
http://www.myspace.com/video/telescopic-sight/sting-plays-the-mongolian-noseflute/18091267
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by john knoss
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
As we are posting videos that have nothing whatsoever to do with Irish traditional music, I thought this deserved another airing here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljPFZrRD3J8
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Yep, and while we're at it, I might as well chuck Bobby McFerrin into the mix.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4BhsYbXwf4
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
The rubberbandits have nothing to do with Irish music?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFfDirBE6w
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
The winner is alexweger who got all but one, Hop High Ladies. This is definately an ITM/STM tune known as Miss McLeod's Reel.
Thanks also to Will Harmon for the Lilting links, which is what I was after on the hidden agenda.
@AlBrown Thanks for the info, but where does our host say this forum is for tunes only?
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Irrelevant crap.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Rob
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Unlike AmeriCeltic, or whatever his name is, my ideal group would not include a tenor banjo ( which after all was not used in Irish music until 1950's, therefore is NOT traditional )............
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Between this thread and the history one, I'm beginning to feel like a native besieged by a missionaries who preach their own gibberish without bothering to notice--let alone learn about--local customs.
There was no point in naming the tunes--they're all very common (to the point of banality) and poorly performed by vocalists clearly dabbling in traditional music.
The presumption that participants in this forum need this sort of edification is arrogant, errant, and misguided.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Could not have said it better, Will.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"Are these performers instrumentalists?"
Yes, AmeriCeltic, they are, in the same sense that carnivores are vegans, Muslims are polytheists, and black is primarily white.
It is all in how you look at it.
We merely have to keep our minds wide open.
And remember, AmeriCeltic, to be extra careful
at the next zebra crossing you come to.
Unless, of course, you are color blind.
# Posted on November 5th 2011 by Piece
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"The winner is alexweger who got all but one, Hop High Ladies" But he did get it.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by David50
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"I'm beginning to feel like a native besieged by a missionaries who preach their own gibberish without bothering to notice--let alone learn about--local customs"
awesome--spot on
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by fidkid
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"This is a fun game"
Isn't "fun" the reason we are all interested? Craic go bragh!
"arrogant, errant, and misguided"
Usually I'm accused of being irreverant too, but then, I'm partly Irish, so that "comes with the territory".
"We merely have to keep our minds wide open."
On this point I hope we all certainly agree whole heartedly.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
>Could not have said it better, Will.
Yeah, but with respect Will, I felt it didn't need saying. WE all knew...but maybe americeltic didn't know. Hence me not taking any of this seriously.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
How can you be "partly" Irish? - were you partly born there?.....your head started to get borned then your mam boarded a flight to the states where the rest of you was borned?
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@Rudall the time
As you say, I'm 100% American!
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Transplant job, nae doot.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I don't care what anyone else thinks - I enjoyed it. But to call it trad would be stretching things close to their elastic limit; Irish, most definitely not. Neither is it high art music - it's just a bit of well-executed fun. Is it relevant to this discussion board? Only inasmuch as it serves as an example of how traditional tunes can be turned into something that is not traditional music.
Would I go to see them? It depends on the price - I'd rather spend my money on a good trad gig.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@ AmeriCeltic: "Thanks for the info, but where does our host say this forum is for tunes only?"
Exhibit A:
Load the home page ((http://www.thesession.org/) and you'll see that it says "The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes."
Exhibit B:
Click on the highlighted word "tunes" there, or on the navigation bar to the right of this page. You will land on the Tunes database page for this site. Search for any common session tune (or indeed, "song" if you want to try it). You'll find a page with navigation tabs for ABC and sheet music notation. You won't find lyrics, and you won't find chords.
There are other sites out there dedicated to the singing of songs, and you're just batting your head against the wall if you continue to push this agenda here. There are some Irish trad sessions that encourage singers (or at least one or two songs), and others where the instrumentalists want to focus on the tunes, it's that simple.
You're not going to win friends or make conversions to the "primacy of song" if you ask people who gather to play melodies together, not to play those melodies so you can sing a song instead..
In the session I help co-host, we have a simple, informal rule about singing. If someone wants to put down their instrument, and favor us with a song, a capella / Sean Nós style, then one or two of those per session is a fine thing. But if we melody players have to put down our instruments, then the singer is going to do that too. It's amazing how effective this is, in keeping the folkie singer/guitarists at bay.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Conical bore
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I'm just wondering, could this be 'wind up by proxy' ?
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by David50
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Hello, AmeriCeltic - welcome to thesession.org! ;)
Jim
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Worldfiddler
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I'm with the Peat Creature. I enjoyed it. I think it's totally unfair to say it was "poorly performed". It was bloody good of its own type. The Swingle Singers have always been at the top of their particular game, and I would pay to go to see them.
Nothing to do with trad, of course, but so what?
Mind you, I simply don't understand the original question. But then, I can't really stand any sort of quasi-metaphysical crap. So, I don't go for this "the human voice is the oldest instrument" nonsense. No it isn't. The word "instrument" is used for when we emploiy an object other than ourselves to make music. The voice is the voice. End of.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
By the way, can I make a plea for you two to get a login name each? It becomes terribly confusing when you take it in turns to post using the same user name.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
They strike me as being the James Galway of diddling.
Which does raise a question: what happened to diddling/mouth music in Irish tradition? It hung on to the present day in both Scots- and Gaelic-speaking Scotland but I can't think of any Irish exponents of it. Or for that matter any American ones, except for fiddlers throwing in an occasional verse of singing into a basically instrumental performance.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Is it hotter in the summer than the city?
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Michele Sims
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Here you are Jack:
http://www.irishmusicreview.com/Celtic%20Mouth%20Music.htm
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Weejie
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Comments on the performance style aside. The second tune is College Hornpipe (Sailor's hornpipe...Popeye's hornpipe). No one named that. Amazing....
Those who don't know this group really ought to hunt up some of their performances of baroque and classical instrumental pieces. You may not like them, or you may, but they are quite astonishing in a variety of ways. Sort of like the knowledge, and lack of knowledge here at mustard
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by cboody
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I named it, I love it; just didn't share it with the board.
By the way, don't you know a good way to index the titles from an abc file? I was reading something earlier on the abcusers group.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@Conical bore So, are the diddling posts by Will Harmon inappropriate for this forum because they are voiced, or is there sufficient flexibilty to all the voicing of traditional tunes to be discussed?
"What happened to diddling/mouth music in Irish tradition"
I always include a verse or two of diddling in each session. Sometimes because I forget the lyrics, sometimes intentionally.
At the session I co-host, http://www.thesession.org/sessions/display/2960 the proprietor prefers a mix of tunes and songs for two reasons: Firstly, because there was a near-brawl shouting match between two competing factions about 1 year ago, resulting in no-one attending his Sunday session for some months, and beer sales dropped. Since both groups were non-singers, he now associates all instrumentalists with these behaviors. Secondly, since we adopted the 'Round Robin' MO, things have run very smoothly, the mix has been more 50/50, and beer sales are up.
True, it is a struggle to get the other singing guitar players to learn to finger-pick or flat-pick the melodies as I do, but enough of them are trying to learn from me that I have continued the struggle.
@ ethical blend I'll just sign my posts too.
Tony Becker
www.AmeriCeltic.net
www.facebook.com/AmeriCeltic
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@Tony Becker/AmeriCeltic: "So, are the diddling posts by Will Harmon inappropriate for this forum because they are voiced, or is there sufficient flexibilty to all the voicing of traditional tunes to be discussed?"
Tony, it's about disruption of the event, and how one fits into an existing session scene or doesn't fit in.
When the melody players around the table are trying to remember a tune mentioned by name, it's not unusual to hear some impromptu vocal diddling while someone tries to remember how it goes. Then they launch into the tune on a proper melody instrument. That's the usual modern context for diddling at a session.
Asking all the melody players in an Irish trad session to sit on their hands and stop playing, while a singer gives a performance, is disruptive. Any backers at the session might be able to find the chords to the song, but what are the pure melody instrument players supposed to do... launch into jazz improv? That's a completely different situation, and it's why "mixed" sessions usually don't work.
You want me to play as backup for you as a singer? No problem, but let's negotiate fees, because I get paid to do that. I have a gig like that coming up next week. I go to sessions to play music for fun, where I can meld with a group of like-minded melody players, and I don't have to feed the egos of singers.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Conical bore
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Death is too good for my ears. Accapella is greek for talentless with music...shepherds call their sheep better.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Greenwiggle
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@Greenwiggle. I admit, I did a brief stint in an a cappella group at uni, and I have all the admiration in the world for people who can do it well. It's really hard. Don't think so? If you sing, even a little bit, try singing with others and staying on pitch singing one thing while they sing something else. Still, doesn't mean that an a cappella group is any more relevant to what is discussed on the Mustard Board than "Horse Outside." Probably less.
@Tony. Dude, you're showing an emphatic refusal to "get it." You're like that guy who waltzes into a session he's never been to before and, without waiting to see what the regulars are playing, or how they're playing it, proceeds to start a zillion of his own tunes or songs that don't fit into the "culture" of that particular session. And all the regulars are sitting their thinking, "What an arse." We all know that guy. You don't want to be that guy. Even if he says, "This is what we do at MY session," it doesn't make him less of an arse. Nobody cares what he does at his session.
The fact that the singers and tune players at your pub, just one wee pub in California, had a row and the solution to the row was to make it into a 50/50 round robin thing, has NO bearing on what happens in every other session in the world. None. Not even a little bit. I'm glad the solution worked and both the musicians and the pub are now happy. But most of the regulars on this message board would probably avoid your session, because the song circle thing isn't what they like to do. Not saying it's wrong. It's just not what they want in a musical night out. This has NOTHING to do with what people think is or isn't "traditional" and ONLY reflects what what they think is or isn't fun.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I hate it when she gets all reasonable ...
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I must agree with ethical blend.
And when she sounds like she knows what she is about, well - that is just plain aggravating.
PS:
In principal, SS's point @ Tony bull'seyes one major Life Lesson - LISTEN FIRST.
Whether you are in a pub or a temple, it is good to listen to what is going on, especially from those who were there before you. Good sense, good manners.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Piece
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Thoughtful feedback:
That posting was as appropriate as a show choir in a jazz festival.
Lilting and the stuff in the OP are completely different types of music.
Look at the title of the forum.
jeez.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Wyogal
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
The human voice is classed as an instrument, but a group of singers are not instrumentalists. In this case the human voice is being used to imitate instruments. Most of the melodies featured have already been named and as many of the tunes have Irish/Scottish/English origins they should be familiar to most Traditional Musicians. Miss McLeod’s, The De’il among the Tailors. The Sailor’s Hornpipe to name a few. The particular group featured is the Swingle Singers, one of the finest acapella singing groups in the world. It takes many hours of practice to perfect that type of singing. Sad to say their expertise seems to be wasted on this forum. They may not be everybody’s cup of tea but to refer to their singing as crap…well really.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Free Reed
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Not ITM, but this guy's awesome: http://www.youtube.com/user/pbpproductions#p/u/8/FyepYaE_JS4
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Joe CSS
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"Tony, it's about disruption of the event, and how one fits into an existing session scene or doesn't fit in."
I completely agree with this, and publish a weekly email newsletter, listing all the Northern California sessions I know of, and in that newsletter I take pains to detail whether the expectation at each session is for tunes only, a few tunes, of a mix of song and tunes, with the express intent of calibrating expectations appropriately.
You can check out this weeks edition here:
http://www.facebook.com/AmeriCeltic#!/note.php?note_id=141047569323117
@TheSilverSpear & Piece
I do, in fact, 'get this'. Moreover, I maintain correspondence with the organizers of all these sessions, have attended most at one time or another. The generally appreciate this service, as it tends to stop the sort of inappropriate behavior you describe.
It is in fact difficult to keep the non-singers happy if there are too many songs. Ted an I use eseveral techniques.
Round Robin MO. Tune players call tunes, singers call songs, I call a mix of both.
Call for an instrumental break between verses, perhaps skipping a chorus, or after the chorus. With Star of the County Down, I do this after every chorus, and the instrumentalists take the entire verse and chorus.
Applaud for every tune.
Thank every instrumentalist personally for at the end of every session.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I forgot to sign..
Tony Becker
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Too many songs is like three.
If someone were to show up at your session, they'd know what to expect. Or not to go. Which is great. Nothing worse than showing up at a session, hoping for a decent tune, and finding out that it's this circle of death, taking turns malarkey. I've been in that movie. It sucks. Sorry to be so negative, I just really hate playing in that context. I know lots of people really like that sort of thing, but not my cup of tea. Most trad players I know prefer a more organic type of session, where no one is "calling" anything. It has the downside -- less control means all sorts of crap can happen, like some w a nker shows up and hijacks things, but the upside is that music and creativity can happen in a way that is impossible the tightly controlled round robin set up.
You don't have to defend songs or their place in the tradition. Most people know they have a place in the tradition. They don't, in large numbers, have a place at a tune session, where the purpose is the communal activity of playing tunes, of connecting to your fellow musicians, not the "look at ME" activity of singing a song. Tradition has feck off to do with it so this thread here and the history one are both sincerely missing the point.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
*feck all... not feck off
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"You don't have to defend songs or their place in the tradition. Most people know they have a place in the tradition. They don't, in large numbers, have a place at a tune session, where the purpose is the communal activity of playing tunes, of connecting to your fellow musicians, not the "look at ME" activity of singing a song. Tradition has (nothing) to do with it..."
At the sessions I prefer, the singers are interested in EXACTLY the sort of communal activity you describe for tune sessions. It seems you have had negative experiences with singers, but in my experience, they can be just as much fun as instrumentalists; if there are some controls.
In practice, we only enforce the Round Robin rules when a abuser or oblivious violator is present, as it happened that September Sunday. The rest of the time, creativity reigns.
Tony Becker
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Tony, you do realize there are any number of sessions where musicians are devoted to playing tunes? I'm beginning to think you don't want to accept this simple fact.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"At the sessions I prefer, the singers are interested in EXACTLY the sort of communal activity you describe for tune sessions."
And that's fine. You go attend that session, and the people interested in playing tunes will attend another session. Believe me, we're all well aware that there are many "song circle" gatherings out there in the world.
But what does any of this have to do with the Mustard Board, which is dedicated to tune playing and not singing. Why are you here?
As Will Harmon noted earlier, all of this discussion about singers has the flavor of missionary work. We're not here to be converted. You play in the kind of session you want, and we'll play in ours. Okay?
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by Conical bore
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Songs only become a "communal" activity if the instrumentalists are noodling away along with the song. And when that happens, it's usually sh*te. There are some people who can accompany a song on the fly but most can't. Including me, which is why I don't do it. And it's really not communal the same way playing a tune is. A song, in essence, is a performance, the singer demanding the audience's attention. While someone can always play w a nky tunes know one else knows and make it into a solo performance, usually tunes are communal, not about any one player.
This is why the best festivals have enough venues for the singers and tune players to have separate sessions. Everyone is happier that way.
# Posted on November 6th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"@TheSilverSpear & Piece
I do, in fact, 'get this'."
Well, maybe you do, Americelt, and maybe you do not.
But, giving you the benfit of the doubt, re-read my posting:
"In principal, SS's point @ Tony bull'seyes one major Life Lesson - LISTEN FIRST.
Whether you are in a pub or a temple, it is good to listen to what is going on, especially from those who were there before you. Good sense, good manners."
I was, if you read clearly, merely agreeing with the point, not chiming in with it being directed at you (nor your postings) specifically, sir.
Message repeats:
I was, if you read clearly, merely agreeing with the point, not chiming in with it being directed at you (nor your postings) specifically, sir.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by Piece
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@Piece I sincerely apolgize for the misunderstanding. Thanks for the correction, and for the support.
@TSS I certainly agree that separate sessions are easier for both, but in a pinch, offer the hope that we can still accommodate all, while helping the management to sell a few extra beers.
It's time for the session to begin at the Poet and Patriot, so I must sign off. I'll be offering a toast to Jeremy and session.org too.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Well, fair play to Americeltic for at least *displaying* that he has taken all this on board. And yes we did give him a bit of a hard time; but had he been guilty of half as much misdemeanors he still would have deserved at least twice as much as we gave him; thus proof that civilisation still inhabits these internet boards, so it's not all dog eats cat.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
meow
(I don't care whether the publican sells more beer on a session night. The music's not a promotional commodity, it's not "entertainment." It's either a part of the community the pub happens to occupy or it's not, and the publican either gets that or s/he doesn't and you'd be better off knocking the dust off tunes at another locale.)
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Hi Will, good if you are fortunate enough to have it all before you.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Heh, yep, the diddley is all the rage here in Montucky....
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I think what Danny is saying is that while you may not regard yourself as entertainment, the pub might. While I agree that the ideal situation is, of course, a landlord who simply appreciates the music and sees it as part of his or her community, the reality is that in the wonderful world that is our capitalistic society, pubs for the most part are looking for ways to sell more beer. Of course, it depends on what you want from the pub and if you demand nothing more than a space to play, they might worry less about the economics of it than if you demand £40 per session leader and a free pint.
It's not so easy to do as you say, and find a pub that appreciates the music for what it is, rather than an entertainment commodity. Doesn't happen in my fair city.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Addendum: I'm not saying that I'm going to play Star of the County Down, Wild Rover, etc. to keep the punters happy. If the pub demands that, then I am outta there. If punters demand it (as they do sometimes), I just tell them I don't know it. My point was that pubs can and do regard even tune sessions as commodities.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Hmm - SS, I get the feeling that (down here anyway) a pub landlord who is Irish and running an Irish pub views the hosting of a session not so much as a commodity (for making money) but more as a medallion, or trinket. "I run a REAL Irish pub - I host a trad music session evrey Tuesday [or whenever]" Much kudos is attached to it, especially if it's a good session. But that's fair enough, so long as they believe in it.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I don't think there is even that level of giving a sh*t about tune sessions amongst pub landlords in Glasgow. As you yourself surely know, to have a REAL Irish pub in Glasgow entails filling it with as much Celtic FC paraphernalia as you can. Pictures of Michael Collins, James Connolly, et. al. are nice as well.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
I don't recall seeing a picture of Connolly in a pub, maybe I haven't looked closely enough, but - um, do they realize the man never touched a drop of alcohol in his entire life?
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
It was probably the same pub where a dude was wanting me to play some sectarian songs and I was a bit scared saying I didn't know any.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Since the interest of the publican is a different issue than the OP, and we are BOTH intensely interested in it, I'm starting a new thread.
Tony Becker
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
"Intensely interested?" I don't have any intense interest in pubs. Unless they serve really good beer. I have an intense interest in beer.
All I want out of a pub is the space to play and ideally, at least one free beer, although the latter doesn't happen at my regular session, which is a bit sh*t but we live with it. You don't need half a PhD thesis analysing this!
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
No, no, no, Emily,
You've missed the point. They are not 'intensely interested', but 'BOTH intensely interested'. I think it's vital to capitalize on that.
# Posted on November 7th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Curiouser and curiouser, as Alice said...
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@MacCruiskeen, no, no,no, I just have a weakness for alliteration.
Tony Becker
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by AmeriCeltic
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
Tony,
You've obviously never read anything by Brian O'Nolan otherwise you wouldn't have missed my point so widely.
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Are these performers instrumentalists?
@MacCruiskeen Not in a very, very long time.
I have sung "An Crúiscín Lán", but I prefer "Minstrel Boy" (Thomas Moore") It was the favorite at McCafferty's Pub, near Macalester College in St. Paul, where I was first exposed to the prevailing mix of ITM and politics of the times.
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by AmeriCeltic