I'm looking to replace the tailpiece on my custom octave mandolin. It currently has an Allen cast tailpiece that I'm completely happy with except that it is chrome. For purely aesthetic, superficial reasons, I'd really like to replace it with a black tailpiece, but am having a great deal of difficulty in finding anything of quality that isn't in chrome or gold.
Does anyone know of a source for an Allen quality tailpiece that can be found in black.
I don't know of anyone selling black cast tailpieces.
Which might leave you with two possibilities: 1) Get a gold or plain brass one and spray it (Paint won't take at all well on chrome). 2) Get a local plating shop to plate one with black chrome. Again you are probably better to start with a brass or gold one, as I think they would have to strip the bright chrome off your current one before re-plating (Assuming it is chrome and not nickel - they can plate straight over nickel)
I thought this was about airplanes.
It has nothing to do with airplanes. Or bowling.
I agree with skreech. Get the Krylon. Or a child with a black crayon.
Thanks all. I contacted a specialty shop about getting one plated with black chrome. The prices quoted were unbelievable (due to it being a special order, small unique item, or so they said). I hadn't considered simply painting, thinking, perhaps erroneously, that it would scratch off too easily. But perhaps sanding, priming, and painting one is worth a try. Thank you for the suggestions.
MorganYYZ, that thread is talking about removing chrome from plastic on toy cars - actually chrome paint, not plating.
As far as I know the only viable way to remove chrome plating from metal is by reverse electrolysis in hydrochloric acid.
Unfortunately craftsmen's time is expensive, and having anything done as a one off will seem unbelievable in comparison to buying the equivalent mass produced items.
I don't think painting the chrome one is a good idea, because you won't be able to key the surface with any normal abrasive - even acid etching primer won't touch it. But if you start with a brass or gold one and thoroughly key and degrease it, then the paint will stick.
Will, If you call the 'paint' by it's proper name - coloured lacquer - you'll realise there is nothing inherently wrong with the aesthetic - the process is used on most musical instruments. Personally, I wouldn't want a black tailpiece on an OM, but like a lot of fiddlers I have a black painted metal tailpiece on my fiddle, so there is no reason not to do the same on other instruments, it's just a matter of taste.
Will
Read my comment prior to yours. You will see that I state I hadn't considered painting for reasons you allude to. However, others made the suggestions and, for all I know, it may work. I acknowledged and thanked them for their suggestions. I'll take positive, helpful (or not), thoughtful suggestions over off-the-cuff snide comments any day.
Mmm....brass or gold tailpiece painted black. Sounds like a good move - not.
Paint is going to last a long time with steel wire rubbing against it isn't it? The better quality black metal violin tailpieces are anodised aluminium alloy - they are anodised to resist corrosion and wear and to retain the black dye (not paint). The surface is sealed afterwards to assist the retention of the dye and further the resistance to corrosion. Even after this process the tailpieces can wear - especially where the ball ends of the strings rub on the retaining hooks. Simply painting over a tailpiece is not likely to last long.
Looking at the Allen website, it seems that your tailpiece is probably rhodium plated, anyway, not chrome. The patina on the bronze model looks pretty good.
Oh, Weejie. Thankfully the people at Wittner know a lot more about surface treatments than you do. Their tailpieces are painted.
And there are a couple of very good reasons why they are painted: First of all they want it to look like ebony - anodising is always translucent - the 'metalicness' of the aluminium shows through. Secondly, although it provides good corrosion resistance, even hard anodising has very poor abrasion resistance - you can rub it off with a pot scourer, and a stubbly chin would have the same effect in a matter of days.
The fine adjuster mechanisms aren't made of aluminium, they are brass and steel, neither of which can be anodised, so if you want them black, they have to be painted.
And before you start nit-picking, yes, the aluminium probably is anodised before it is painted - but it will be soft anodised, and undyed - it's done not to colour the metal, but simply to etch it and provide a key for the paint.
And exactly where do the strings 'rub' on a mandolin tailpiece?
"Oh, Weejie. Thankfully the people at Wittner know a lot more about surface treatments than you do. Their tailpieces are painted."
Not so. They are anodised and dyed and sealed in the same way alloy bicycle rims are. I didn't actually mention Wittner, but they do black anodise their tailpieces - I've been to the factory.
"The fine adjuster mechanisms aren't made of aluminium, they are brass and steel,"
The hooks are alloy, the screws are brass and the pins are steel. The strings do not rub on those brass and steel parts.
Deep black anodising does not leave a too "translucent" finish. However, you will notice a bluish tinged reflection. Try looking.
Yes, the anodised finish does rub off - but compare how quickly an anodised finish on a wheel rim rubs off compared to a painted one after braking.
Here's a bit of information for you skreech - it appears that your knowledge of such things can be written on a postage stamp:
I hope you notice the line "It is particularly suited for applications where hardness and resistance to abrasion is required." Look at the pictures too.
As for "they have to be painted" concerning non-aluminium parts, there are black oxidising processes for most metals.
"WITTNER TAILPIECE VIOLIN 1/4, light-metal tailpiece with 4 string-adjusters, black screws, made of high-quality aluminium-alloy, black anodised, comes with thomann nylon-tailgut."
It's interesting that neither wittner's own site, or any other dealer I can find, describes it as anodised. I suspect that who ever wrote the descriptions for Thomanns made the same mistake as yourself.
Just look at the bloody thing. Compare it to something you know is anodised, and to something like the panel of an amp, which is painted black. Which does it look like? Even just compare the finish of the aluminium bit with the finish on the adjuster screws - which you know can't be anodised, because they aint aluminium.
"The black finish is anodized so it will not come off, even if scratched or scraped. In addition, we anodize the screws so they will always look as perfect as the day you got them".
Gunther Dick and Georg Walther also used to manufacture anodised tailpieces - I'm not sure if they still do because a lot of tailpieces are made of composite materials theses days.
As I've already pointed out, you can produce an "oxidised" finish on most metals. The name 'anodised' is applied to aluminium and certain other metals and alloys because of the process involved in the oxidisation. Some people call other oxidisation processes "anodising".
"High quality black anodized aluminum Hill style violin chinrest machines. Excellent for those with allergies to Nickel or Brass (hypoallergenic). These have screw fitings at the top that are meant to mount on standard type chinrests, unlike most Hill style chinrest clamps, which are more difficult to install. http://www.violins.on.ca/photos/chinrests/600-19-140.jpg
"Antoni Fine Tuning Violin Tailpiece - 4/4 size, AVT61 4/4 - 4/4 and 3/4 Size
Light black anodised aircraft alloy body incorporating four adjustable fine tuners in a sleek, no-nonsense unit. "
" even hard anodising has very poor abrasion resistance "
Hmm.....
"Generally the high strength alloys i.e. 2000 and 7000 alloys produce a Microhardness figure ranging from 250 to 350 micro Vickers where as the 6000 alloy range in between 400-500 micro Vickers. A note of caution should be made when comparing micro hardness to wear resistance, the hardness measured by micron-indentation method does not represent the performance of the material. It has been found that a hard anodised coating measuring 450 mv will have a wear resistance of tool steel of 950 mv and even an anodic coating of high copper alloy such as 2014 measuring 250-280 mv will often offer as much wear resistant as tool steels. "
Well I'm glad to see others surpass my own feeble snideness quotient.
Eisdear, you seem to have skipped my post about asking Mr Allen himself to make you a black tailpiece. As I said before, if that isn't positive and helpful, then I am out of my element here.
Will
Point taken; didn't miss it, just didn't keep track of names. My bad. And I admit to the occasional snark. I'm just amazed at what seemingly simple question can lead lead to on this site.
Tailpiece
Tailpiece
First, get your mind out of the gutter!
I'm looking to replace the tailpiece on my custom octave mandolin. It currently has an Allen cast tailpiece that I'm completely happy with except that it is chrome. For purely aesthetic, superficial reasons, I'd really like to replace it with a black tailpiece, but am having a great deal of difficulty in finding anything of quality that isn't in chrome or gold.
Does anyone know of a source for an Allen quality tailpiece that can be found in black.
# Posted on November 1st 2011 by eisdear
Re: Tailpiece
I don't know of anyone selling black cast tailpieces.
Which might leave you with two possibilities: 1) Get a gold or plain brass one and spray it (Paint won't take at all well on chrome). 2) Get a local plating shop to plate one with black chrome. Again you are probably better to start with a brass or gold one, as I think they would have to strip the bright chrome off your current one before re-plating (Assuming it is chrome and not nickel - they can plate straight over nickel)
# Posted on November 1st 2011 by skreech
Re: Tailpiece
Why not contact Randy Allen himself and have one custom made? http://www.allenguitar.com/tpcs.htm
# Posted on November 1st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Tailpiece
P.S.
Allen Guitars & Luthier Supplies
PO Box 1883 Colfax, CA 95713 USA
Voice and 24 Hr Fax order line 530-346-6590
Telephone Orders 800-953-3035
# Posted on November 1st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Tailpiece
I thought this was about airplanes.
It has nothing to do with airplanes. Or bowling.
I agree with skreech. Get the Krylon. Or a child with a black crayon.
# Posted on November 1st 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: Tailpiece
My first thought was "spray paint the sucker," meant tongue in cheek, but I see it's actually offered as a serious suggestion.
Good luck.
# Posted on November 2nd 2011 by sara505sings
Re: Tailpiece
Thanks all. I contacted a specialty shop about getting one plated with black chrome. The prices quoted were unbelievable (due to it being a special order, small unique item, or so they said). I hadn't considered simply painting, thinking, perhaps erroneously, that it would scratch off too easily. But perhaps sanding, priming, and painting one is worth a try. Thank you for the suggestions.
# Posted on November 2nd 2011 by eisdear
Re: Tailpiece
So you're doing this for purely aesthetic reasons, yet you think you'll be happy with a spray painted finish....
Clearly I'm out of my element here.
# Posted on November 2nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Tailpiece
Some suggestions from a car site for removing chrome -
http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic602394.htm
Castrol Super Clean
Household Bleach
Easy-Off Foaming Oven Cleaner
# Posted on November 2nd 2011 by MorganYYZ
Re: Tailpiece
MorganYYZ, that thread is talking about removing chrome from plastic on toy cars - actually chrome paint, not plating.
As far as I know the only viable way to remove chrome plating from metal is by reverse electrolysis in hydrochloric acid.
Unfortunately craftsmen's time is expensive, and having anything done as a one off will seem unbelievable in comparison to buying the equivalent mass produced items.
I don't think painting the chrome one is a good idea, because you won't be able to key the surface with any normal abrasive - even acid etching primer won't touch it. But if you start with a brass or gold one and thoroughly key and degrease it, then the paint will stick.
Will, If you call the 'paint' by it's proper name - coloured lacquer - you'll realise there is nothing inherently wrong with the aesthetic - the process is used on most musical instruments. Personally, I wouldn't want a black tailpiece on an OM, but like a lot of fiddlers I have a black painted metal tailpiece on my fiddle, so there is no reason not to do the same on other instruments, it's just a matter of taste.
# Posted on November 2nd 2011 by skreech
Re: Tailpiece
Will
Read my comment prior to yours. You will see that I state I hadn't considered painting for reasons you allude to. However, others made the suggestions and, for all I know, it may work. I acknowledged and thanked them for their suggestions. I'll take positive, helpful (or not), thoughtful suggestions over off-the-cuff snide comments any day.
# Posted on November 2nd 2011 by eisdear
Re: Tailpiece
Mmm....brass or gold tailpiece painted black. Sounds like a good move - not.
Paint is going to last a long time with steel wire rubbing against it isn't it? The better quality black metal violin tailpieces are anodised aluminium alloy - they are anodised to resist corrosion and wear and to retain the black dye (not paint). The surface is sealed afterwards to assist the retention of the dye and further the resistance to corrosion. Even after this process the tailpieces can wear - especially where the ball ends of the strings rub on the retaining hooks. Simply painting over a tailpiece is not likely to last long.
Looking at the Allen website, it seems that your tailpiece is probably rhodium plated, anyway, not chrome. The patina on the bronze model looks pretty good.
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
Oh, Weejie. Thankfully the people at Wittner know a lot more about surface treatments than you do. Their tailpieces are painted.
And there are a couple of very good reasons why they are painted: First of all they want it to look like ebony - anodising is always translucent - the 'metalicness' of the aluminium shows through. Secondly, although it provides good corrosion resistance, even hard anodising has very poor abrasion resistance - you can rub it off with a pot scourer, and a stubbly chin would have the same effect in a matter of days.
The fine adjuster mechanisms aren't made of aluminium, they are brass and steel, neither of which can be anodised, so if you want them black, they have to be painted.
And before you start nit-picking, yes, the aluminium probably is anodised before it is painted - but it will be soft anodised, and undyed - it's done not to colour the metal, but simply to etch it and provide a key for the paint.
And exactly where do the strings 'rub' on a mandolin tailpiece?
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by skreech
Re: Tailpiece
"Oh, Weejie. Thankfully the people at Wittner know a lot more about surface treatments than you do. Their tailpieces are painted."
Not so. They are anodised and dyed and sealed in the same way alloy bicycle rims are. I didn't actually mention Wittner, but they do black anodise their tailpieces - I've been to the factory.
"The fine adjuster mechanisms aren't made of aluminium, they are brass and steel,"
The hooks are alloy, the screws are brass and the pins are steel. The strings do not rub on those brass and steel parts.
Deep black anodising does not leave a too "translucent" finish. However, you will notice a bluish tinged reflection. Try looking.
Yes, the anodised finish does rub off - but compare how quickly an anodised finish on a wheel rim rubs off compared to a painted one after braking.
Here's a bit of information for you skreech - it appears that your knowledge of such things can be written on a postage stamp:
http://www.anoplate.com/finishes/anodizing.html
I hope you notice the line "It is particularly suited for applications where hardness and resistance to abrasion is required." Look at the pictures too.
As for "they have to be painted" concerning non-aluminium parts, there are black oxidising processes for most metals.
Look at this for starters:
http://www.epi.com/c/black-oxide
Paint - schmaint.
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
"And exactly where do the strings 'rub' on a mandolin tailpiece?"
On the part where they hook on - every time you replace the boogers for example - or can you hook a loop end on a tailpiece hook without it rubbing?
Geez!
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
"WITTNER TAILPIECE VIOLIN 1/4, light-metal tailpiece with 4 string-adjusters, black screws, made of high-quality aluminium-alloy, black anodised, comes with thomann nylon-tailgut."
http://www.thomann.de/gb/wittner_saitenhalter_violine_14.htm
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
It's interesting that neither wittner's own site, or any other dealer I can find, describes it as anodised. I suspect that who ever wrote the descriptions for Thomanns made the same mistake as yourself.
Just look at the bloody thing. Compare it to something you know is anodised, and to something like the panel of an amp, which is painted black. Which does it look like? Even just compare the finish of the aluminium bit with the finish on the adjuster screws - which you know can't be anodised, because they aint aluminium.
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by skreech
Re: Tailpiece
"Just look at the bloody thing. Compare it to something you know is anodised,"
I have. I compared it to a bicycle rim. You'll find a lot of bicycle parts that sre deep black anodised. The mistake is yours.
Are you saying that this site is also misrepresenting its products?
http://www.furtadosonline.com/product/Wittner-cello-tailpiece-with-4-adjuster-ultra-919711-116007.html
I think that you'll find that Wittner have a bit more information on their brochures - here's another make:
http://www.fretstore.com/detail.aspx?ID=616
"The black finish is anodized so it will not come off, even if scratched or scraped. In addition, we anodize the screws so they will always look as perfect as the day you got them".
Gunther Dick and Georg Walther also used to manufacture anodised tailpieces - I'm not sure if they still do because a lot of tailpieces are made of composite materials theses days.
As I've already pointed out, you can produce an "oxidised" finish on most metals. The name 'anodised' is applied to aluminium and certain other metals and alloys because of the process involved in the oxidisation. Some people call other oxidisation processes "anodising".
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
Compare with these chinrest clamps:
"High quality black anodized aluminum Hill style violin chinrest machines. Excellent for those with allergies to Nickel or Brass (hypoallergenic). These have screw fitings at the top that are meant to mount on standard type chinrests, unlike most Hill style chinrest clamps, which are more difficult to install.
http://www.violins.on.ca/photos/chinrests/600-19-140.jpg
http://www.violins.on.ca/chinrests.html
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
"Antoni Fine Tuning Violin Tailpiece - 4/4 size, AVT61 4/4 - 4/4 and 3/4 Size
Light black anodised aircraft alloy body incorporating four adjustable fine tuners in a sleek, no-nonsense unit. "
http://www.counterpointdirect.co.uk/Antoni_Fine_Tuning_Violin_Tailpiece_p/w-str028y.htm
You'll find that Antoni use the same description in their catalogue.
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
" even hard anodising has very poor abrasion resistance "
Hmm.....
"Generally the high strength alloys i.e. 2000 and 7000 alloys produce a Microhardness figure ranging from 250 to 350 micro Vickers where as the 6000 alloy range in between 400-500 micro Vickers. A note of caution should be made when comparing micro hardness to wear resistance, the hardness measured by micron-indentation method does not represent the performance of the material. It has been found that a hard anodised coating measuring 450 mv will have a wear resistance of tool steel of 950 mv and even an anodic coating of high copper alloy such as 2014 measuring 250-280 mv will often offer as much wear resistant as tool steels. "
http://www.ase4anodising.co.uk/hard-anodising.asp#
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
They get better.....
"Compare it to something you know is anodised, and to something like the panel of an amp, which is painted black."
It depends on the amp. I've got anodised ones and powder coated ones - and an old spray painted one with chunks out of it.
Here's an anodised one - there are plenty more like it:
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2010/Aug/Aracom_Power_Rox_PRX_150_Pro_Attenuator_Review.aspx
"The PRX 150-Pro is housed in a black anodized-aluminum case with an amp-style strap handle "
# Posted on November 3rd 2011 by Weejie
Re: Tailpiece
Well I'm glad to see others surpass my own feeble snideness quotient.
Eisdear, you seem to have skipped my post about asking Mr Allen himself to make you a black tailpiece. As I said before, if that isn't positive and helpful, then I am out of my element here.
# Posted on November 4th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Tailpiece
Will
Point taken; didn't miss it, just didn't keep track of names. My bad. And I admit to the occasional snark. I'm just amazed at what seemingly simple question can lead lead to on this site.
# Posted on November 8th 2011 by eisdear