I had a quick look and it looks fantastic, its great to be able to learn about the people behind those great tunes. But I just wanted to point out the text is displaying a bit strange in places - the bottom half of the occasional line is missing - maybe its the choice of font?
I'm using Safari on a Mac...?
Just tried it on Safari (on Windows) and the font isn't as good, you're right.
When you say the bottom half of the occasional line is missing, do you mean some of the letters are a bit cutoff at the bottom or are you not able to read the lines at all?
I'll have a look at it on a Mac tomorrow to see what it's like.
This is our first time building a website so we weren't aware of these font issues!
I'm not of the opinion that James Scott Skinner can be considered as a composer of Irish traditional music. There's no doubt that several - but only a very small percentage - of his compositions are played by traditional Irish musicians, but that does not make him " an Irish tune composer". Your other composers deliberately created their music within, and occasionally outwith, the parameters and nuances of Irish dance music. Skinner, as far as I know, did not, and I see no reason for his inclusion..
Congratulations on the website - I'll look at it more closely when I have time, and will contribute any information I can.
Joe Liddy should be in there as well i think. Gerry Harrington has a few nice tunes put together, John Brosnan and Jackie Daly as well, Terry Moylan composed The Hard Road to Passage' . It'll be a long list.
Not really sure if he really fits into the category of Irish *tune composers*, but John Sheahan has in my opinion composed some truly magic pieces on the violin and tin whistle!
Unfortunately I have never found a complete compilation of all his compositions, but I would love to see one!
Perharps someone here could contact the man himself and ask him to share his music contribution to the rest of the world?
You should maybe at least mention that Maggie Barry is sometimes credited as the real composer of (at least some) of Michael Gorman's tunes, notably the Strayaway Child.
I'd guess they're probably a joint effort although we'll never know for certain.
As well as JS Skinner, Jerry Holland should not be there. If you include composers just because Irish musicians play their tunes you could end up with a bit of a mess.
Some more contemporary composers who've written some very nice tunes -
Hammie Hamilton, Colin Farrell, Mick O' Conner, Brendan Ring, Kevin Crawford, Sean Smyth, Lep McCann, Joe Liddy, John McSherry, Alan Kelly, Kevin Burke, Cillian Vallely, Brian Finnegan, Donal Lunny.
I'm not too sure how Jerry Holland fits in there either. Like Skinner, some of his music has become part of the Irish repertoire but that's as far as it goes.
"In order to qualify for inclusion the composer must meet one of these three criteria
(a) The composer has one or more tunes which are now part of the standard repertoire
(b) The composer has one or more tunes which have been played by musicians of note
(c) The composer or someone else has produced a collection of their music in printed form"
Skinner, Hill and Holland would meet this. Perhaps the criteria are a tad broad - perhaps not. If this is adhered to then even Phil Cunningham would qualify. An example being "Farewell to Govan" played by Liam O'Flynn.
I would say these criteria are far, far too open. You're talking about rakes and rakes on non Irish composers. Also, you would be constantly adding people as Irish musicians look for more and more new tunes, which is a natural thing to do for many players.
(a) Standard repertoire is a very localised thing.
(b) Musicians of note is pretty subjective.
(c) Fair enough but what's the Irish connection.
The whole thing would be less likely to get out of hand if you included only Irish composers.
The point is surely for it to be a useful resource. "The Rights of Man" has been played long enough and often enough in Ireland and the Irish diaspora that by any measure it's an Irish tune. So what if it was written by an Englishman born in Scotland? - people will want to know about him.
The Paddy O'Brien from Co. Offaly should be included, as well as Co.Tipperary Paddy.
Would it not be more useful as a resource if you actually listed the tunes by each composer ? Best of luck with Scott Skinner and Ed Reavy.
i liked the criteria. i would rather see info included on a broad range of people whose tunes i play, than have it so strict that i can't find someone i'm seeking. people who are very particular can always ignore what they aren't interested in, especially ifthe format is such that you can seek for what you're looking for.
A very sparky and interesting venture. Good luck! There may be people steeped in the tradition who know all this stuff already, but I'm not one of them, and to be able to access the basics of this and that composer's life and music and indeed see photos all gathered together on a site like this is very welcome.
The website is in its infancy so there are going to be a lot of discrepancies at first.
So to address some issues.
(a) Regarding non-Irish composers
We plan to include ANY composer who has a tune that is widely played by those who play traditional Irish music. That is why people like Scott Skinner, Jerry Holland and James Hill are there.
In researching the website we discovered that a lot of tunes we knew by ear and presumed were traditional were actually composed by known musicians.
We want to create awareness of this.
(b) To address claims of copyright
There are three people working on this site and we all have different methods of writing, finding and uploading material. We're trying to be as consistent as possible.
Our general method is to write a short piece about each composer, explaining their importance and mentioning their well known tunes.
After that we will paste and link to interesting biogs and articles we find on the net. We have tried to credit all such references, however we must admit we may have missed some crediting at the beginning, so we will be going back to this and giving full credits.
Apologies Prof. Prlwytzkofsky but we didn't reaise you had copyright on the Junior Crehan photo. In fairness we do credit our source for all the Junior Crehan info at the bottom of the article. We have yet to write our own piece on him and so at the moment I can see how it looks like a cynical piece of copying.
If something has been published on the internet for public domain viewing then this we feel it is fair enough to copy and or link to this material. If we had to ask permission to copy every photo and article we'd never get the site done!!!!
If you can claim copyright and would like us to remove the photo then we'll be happy to take it down.
(c) Section A and B
This categorisation we knew would prove controversial, however it's there as a convenience to allow people to first see who have made the biggest contributions to the trad repertoire.
It is likely we will add some people from Section B to A and we're happy to consider Josie Keegan and John Brady as Kenny suggests.
Initially they are only in Section B because we only know of one tune each of theirs which is commonly played. We would be grateful to know what other tunes of theirs are commonly played.
(D) Tune lists and discographies
We eventually hope to list all the known tunes and recordings by each composer, that will take a while though!
We will also link to notations of tunes where available on sites like thesession.org.
We have done this linking for some of Martin Mulhaire's tunes already.
(E) How we do this.
Finally we must explain the following.
Please be patient and tolerant with us!
We are doing this voluntarily for absolutely no monetary gain. Weebly offers the possibility of 'monetising' the site but we don't want to do this.
Many thanks for all the other composer suggestions, we will certainly look into them all and will gradually add them.
We would welcome contributions from others so if you have a particular passion for a composer and would like to write an article or submit relevant material about them to us then please contact us through the contact form on the website.
I think your deeply mistaken in your thinking about copyright. every word written by anytbody, be it on the internet or elsewhere, belongs to the author.
If you copy photographs or text without permission you're in the wrong. It's that simple. It's also just plain old bad manners.
I posted that piece about Paddy O Donoghue, probably as a post here, possibly another sight. You have no business copying it without acknowledgement. Same for the photograph.
If you are to include Jerry Holland (I don't think he should be there to be honest) you will want to include Otis Thomas for his 'The New Land' which is popular around here, through Jackie Daly's introduction of it.
Prof. Prlwytzkofsky you have no information as to who you are under your name here so it's impossible for us to know who you are and if your copyright claims are valid.
Again we apologise for using your material, if it is yours, without permission, we would hope in the interests of this voluntary, educational project that you would be happy to have your contributions used.
We will be happy to acknowledge you as the author of any such material if you let us know who you are!!!!
You know, the problem I have with this sort of thing is the blatant cut and paste jobs without permission. I am quite liberal in my approach when asked but I deeply dislike this sort of situation the 'prove it' one. You are the one to apply care BEFORE you use material.
Great job - it's nice to see all this information being collated in one place.
Couple of thoughts:
!) Might you perhaps include George McLennan (e.g. Jig of Slurs)
2) It might me nice to have a list of each author's compostions, (as well as discography, publications etc). And perhaps also an alphabetical list of tunes, with the composer's name noted against each one?
Your site - by its very nature - is trying to GIVE credit for authorship. So it's rather sad to see folks getting stuffy regarding copyright issues.
I have taken the other issue to e-mail, where it should be.
Paddy Canny played some tunes, Caves at Kiltannon, Rooms at Dooagh, he was rumoured to have written. The caves at the back of his house in Kiltannon are a spectacular mysterious place ( before they built executive homes on the land that belonged to Kiltannon house anyway) worthy of a tune.
'I have taken the other issue to e-mail, where it should be'
Where you retrospectively think it should be Peter. If you wanted it to be resolved by email why didn't you contact me first instead of attacking me in a public forum.
I'm doing this all in good faith Peter and am very taken aback by your negativity, I don't understand it.
I'm all for copyright to be enforced to prevent people exploiting others for profit.
Some sources, including the BBC, have a track record on which we can judge them. So far in this discussion you have admitted not knowing some of your sources and hown a naivity in relation to attribution of the work of others that suggests inexperience.
You don't understand the negativity. Well, how often do you think websites, publishers of books, newspapers, concert venues think it's perfectly fine to use google images to pull a few images for free?
It's a pain in the neck to deal with but as it happens it's MY work so I am fussy about other people who treat it like it's a free for all just because they found it on the internet.
If you bother to ask before you use, you are most likely get permission. If you can't be bothered to make the effort and use my work regardless. You don't and you won't get it retrospectively either.
And for the second time you're responding to a private e-mail on a public forum.
Give yourselves a break. Attribution is not only about manners (and usually the law) it gets you off the hook if the information is wrong but reported in good faith. Also if you read up on it you will find there are ways of quoting people without getting permission every time.
I'd like to make clear I think the idea of the website is a good one and I wish them well. I said this in the first e-mail I sent to them.
I have issues, obviously, with the cut and paste nature of the information supplied. My personal bee in the bonnet about misappropriated photographs aside, I make posts to forums like this and sometimes write what comes into my head. I don't expect, and don't want, to see casual posts presented as articles on other websites. Not with an attribution and certainly not without.
Now that is one issue. An issue that could have been resolved easily enough. Tune composer (who is he anyway?) made a few basic mistakes in handling the issue and that cost him a fair amount of goodwill and willingness to accommodate him from my end.
I think this could be a fine resource, once the people putting it together provide consistent entries, written by themselves and based on their own research.
They may even get photographers to submit piccies, if they ask for them. But not before they abandon the 'we'll use what we find until you prove they're yours' approach.
Good job on the site - despite the obvious can of worms it stirs up. I sympathize with Peter, but you have an excellent point concerning discovering identity when many clearly obfuscate for legitimate reasons.
Another Irish composer with many tunes in regular use:
Cormac Breatnach
I'd be looking at it from a slightly different perspective. I think the site is an interesting resource for those interested in learning about the lives and backgrounds of well known and some less well known trad musicians.
But.... if it's a move towards accrediting tune x,y,z to particular composer A,B,C and this is used in some fashion by the 'music industry' to extract royalty payments etc., I'd say leave well alone.
I'd guess it's gratifying for many of these people to be acknowledged but I'm quite sure that many, particularly the older players, are not interested in monetary gain - happy to hear their tunes played and adapted. And that might be your view as web masters.
But that's not always how the big bad world of commerce works - I'd guess that IMRO and related organisations will love something like this.... ??
We can assure you our motives are nothing but genuine.
It is true that there are some well meaning composers like Father Kelly who were not interested in copyrighting their tunes on the grounds that they don't think anyone should own them.
Whilst this is admirable it is also naive because you can be sure that Paddy Moloney copyrighted The Chieftains arrangement of his tune when they recorded it. They would have used the old 'trad. arr.' thing and so they and their publisher will make royalties.
If Father Kelly had copyrighted it he would have made the royalties and he could have given it to worthy causes or something like that.
So you can be sure that any composer who knows about copyright (or their family) has already registered their tunes with IMRO or another organisation. Junior Crehan's family for example are very vigilant about collecting royalties for his music.
To give a pertinent example, Dave Richardson composed the well known tune 'The Calliope House Jig' which was used in Lord of the Dance and sold millions of copies. If he didn't copyright it he would have lost out on a lot of money that would likely have gone into the pockets of Michael Flatley and Ronan Hardiman, who would no doubt have registered it as 'trad. arr'.
I don't think anyone would begrudge Dave Richardson for doing this.
Anyway, royalty lecture aside, our website is purely meant to be for educational/informational non-profit purposes.
An awful lot of tunes go uncredited and surely the composers deserve to be recognised in the same way that their classical and singer-songwriting counterparts are.
Interesting seeing someone ask for peoples input, get the input, and then watching both the requestor, and the obligor become defensive. I can imagine the analysis that could be made by some university students.
1. history is subjective, it is one person's interpretation of events. Nobody owns the past, only their interpretation of it,Tune composer I think you should grow some thick skin if you expect to take this project as far as you seem to intend to.
2. It's a good idea not to publicly post anything one considers their intellectual property, unless they are prepared for the inherent risk that it will be taken, used, enjoyed, or modified by a stranger, and then one should realize that there is very little recourse for the author, as it is almost impossible to demonstrate real loss (unless of course you are backed by the BMI or ASCAP, or a corporate publisher, and we know they are busy taking you the author to the cleaners for real $, while the person who cut and paste your work is probably making no real financial gains)
Either way interesting project. I know he is listed alphabetically but Vincent Broderick is one of my favorite composers's. The fact that the article starts with rating him as a "fine" composer does make me agree that all articles on your site should be properly cited, so that the reader has a notion of just whose interpretation they are reading, at least out of respect for your readers, if not for the authors.
"An awful lot of tunes go uncredited and surely the composers deserve to be recognised in the same way that their classical and singer-songwriting counterparts are."
Not necessarily. Like so many *services* these days the vast majority of people may welcome this, yet for those (composers) who do not desire such recognition it is disrespectful.
I agree that the motives of Fr.Kelly and his compatriots are/ were admirable - you summed it up well ".. not interested in copyrighting their tunes on the grounds that they don't think anyone should own them."
But I don't agree that they were naive. Far from it - they understood that they had drawn from the wellspring of a folk tradition and that that was where their work belongs.
So again, I think it's great to be able to read up on these people and more power to you for assembling the info. But I wouldn't be too hot on the idea of some sort of definitive listing of tunes attributable to each composer. I just think that's a move away from the heart of the tradition and perhaps towards possible commercial exploitation.
Mind you, a list of tune titles would be fairly meaningless anyway as so many tunes have multiple names and variants.
"An awful lot of tunes go uncredited and surely the composers deserve to be recognised in the same way that their classical and singer-songwriting counterparts are"
That's the slippery slope........
As many have said here, isn't the best possible recognition, for a composer to hear their tunes played, adapted, renamed and absorbed? Why is credit important?
I admit at the moment the website is more like a portal of cut and pasted material. We do say on the home page that the site is in its infancy and we welcome contributions from others!
It would take months to fully research all this material and write original articles about all the composers. We would very much welcome anyone wishing to submit something along these lines.
For now we are writing short little introductions to all the composers and mentioning their well known tunes, after that it's cut and paste and linking to other sites and we make no apologies for that.
Some people actually appreciate having all this information in one place!
It's the information age, the age for sharing, in f
Incidentally, some of our cut and pasting is just reposting material we've written ourselves, because between the three of us we have written some of the articles we've cut and pasted from.
The wikipedia article on Paddy Fahey being one example.
Going by the criteria for inclusion, you would have to include the late Simon Jeffes.
Like it or loathe it, one of his compositions is played a lot more than some genuine traditional tunes.
If not, why not?
Having recently put together a tune book and having had to struggle with the matter of copyright and permissions I can say that I completely agree that having as much information about tune sources as possible in one place is a wonderful thing to aspire to.
That said though, attribution is fairly simple. Even anonymous writings or disguised names can be easily included. We can argue all night about whether materials (like this note) are really worthy of copyright, but we shouldn't argue about whether it is good form to mention the source...or at least whatever information we have about the source. That is one of the first things one learns in any sort of academic discipline.
After all of that though good on you for attempting this collection of information. I hope it goes wonderfully.
And thank you for pulling the comment showing your indignation I asked you to pull the Paddy O'Donoghue piece. You said you would take it down if I asked and I asked, attribution issues aside, because it was never a biographical article but rather a casual forum post that would not do at all for the purpose you used it for.
The comment was rather petty, given the circumstances and I am glad you saw sense.
"an Englishman born in Scotland....eh? I don't understand." ... "James Hill. Born in Dundee, spent his entire musical career in Tyneside."
Jack, I was born in Scotland. However, I will end up living most of my life in Ireland, playing Irish Music but that doesn't, nor will it ever, make me Irish .... I'll still die a Scot!
My wife was born in Germany but has lived longer in Ireland than Germany ... she's still German.
If Sean Connery has lived longer in Spain than anywhere else, does that make him Spanish ..... perhaps you'd like to ask him?
nationality: 1. The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization.
Interesting question this naturalization!
Michael Coleman actually spent more years playing the Fiddle in America than Ireland, so does that make him American?
If this site was only for Irish musicians, does that mean therefore that he wouldn't actually qualify?
I wonder how the site owners look at this question of nationality?
We are listing anyone who has composed music that has made a significant contribution to the Irish tradition, it makes no difference where someone was born or whether they played Irish music a lot.
So for example Jerry Holland from Cape Breton in Canada gets included because his tune Brenda Stubberts is now widely played in the tradition.
We aren't going to include Michael Coleman unless we find strong evidence that he composed some of the tunes occasionally attributed to him.
To be a little more controversial, can we really say that new tunes such as Brenda Stubbert, Calliope House and so on are now part of the *Irish* tradition or repertoire when they are so common elsewhere too? They are really more *universal* than anything else.
The same applies, to a lesser extent, to older tunes such as "The rights of man", "Harvest Home". These are very popular in Ireland and with Irish musicians but are just as common elsewhere.
To clarify the above, I realise that these tunes ARE technically part of the Irish repertoire but they are not distinctively or exclusively Irish..if you know what I mean.
Maybe a distinction between tunes that seamlessly fit into the tradition and tunes that are played for whatever other reason, popularity, novelty or just because they're great tunes, should be in order.
Some people have been known to play the Teddy Bear's Picnic on the pipes and it caught on for a while. During the nineties I have heard the tune drift out of the window of Mary Fahy's kitchen on the Ennis Road during late Willie week nights on more than one occasion. I have heard a tape of Séamus Ennis and Willie Clancy playing How much is that doggy *(and again some pipers still seem to have a grá for that one), Finbar McLaughlin did a mean Yellow Submarine and Tommy Kearney had Puppet on a String as one of his party pieces. They're novelty items though and nobody would treat them otherwise. The Found Harmonium, in my mind, sits comfortably in this category. As does Dermot Byrne's rendition of Tico Tico for example(that I have heard recorded by young musicians since).
Equally, Metsakukkia, The New Land, the Northern Lights of Old Aberdeen, The Mist Covered Mountains of Home, Ashokan Farewell, even the Tenessee Waltz get more or less regular outings around here, some because they're lovely tunes, other maybe because everybody knows it and has it handy when the company is in the mood for dancing an old time waltz. Part of the repertoire, yes, but I don't think anybody in their right mind would/should/could mistake them for traditional Irish tunes for that reason.
"Part of the repertoire, yes, but I don't think anybody in their right mind would/should/could mistake them for traditional Irish tunes for that reason. "
I bet they said that about Miss MacLeod of Raasay. "Pah, quaint Scottish tune. It'll never take off as an Irish trad tune".
Around the year 2115, everyone will be playing Metsäkukkia.
They'll be calling it "The Humours of Burke" or something like that.
As for the Penguin Cafe Orchestra number being lumped together with Yellow Submarine and Puppet on a String - look how many recordings are listed in the entry on this site (those pop numbers aren't listed):
"As for the Penguin Cafe Orchestra number ...... - look how many recordings are listed in the entry on this site "
What seems even more bizarre to me is the number of alternative titles this tune has considering that it is so recent and that its name and composer are so widely known!!!
Jim Sutherland, for "The Easy Club" reel.
Charlie McKerron for "Bulgarian Red" and "The Islay Ranters"
Adam Sutherland for "The Road To Errogie".
Angus R. Grant for "Two Fifty To Vigo"
James MacMahon for "The Banshee"
Dr. Angus MacDonald for "Chloe's Passion"
"We aren't going to include Michael Coleman unless we find strong evidence that he composed some of the tunes occasionally attributed to him"
Isn't that the Achilles Heel of something like this. Concept of intellectual property rights regarding Irish Trad music is a relatively modern phenonemon and one strongly linked to commercialisation. Who knows whether the likes of Michael Coleman or Joe Cooley etc. actually wrote and/or adapted any tunes - it wasn't popular or profitable to document this at the time. So why should it matter now other than as a trifle of passing interest? Is someone like the late Junior Crehan more to be respected because his tunes are credited and I think it's often said based on older melodies. Why are any of the above listed names more creditworthy? What's so important about dittering about with a few notes and coming up with a new arrangement of same? Don't we all do it?
And where would you end? I think there maybe some merit in the Section A listing - but there are surely endless people who might qualify for Section B etc.
I'm thinking of someone like Hammy Hamilton, love his flute playing and making and I think he 'wrote' a well know jig, The Kerfunten or Kerfunken or something like that. Well enough played I think. But is Hammy a tune composer on basis of just that? I'm not sure - I suppose you'd have to ask him... and aren't there many more people like that, some well known but many less so.
"And where would you end?" lol ~ the more you know, the more you don't know.
I believe Micho Russell also 'wrote' a well known reel; http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2816
How did you come to that conclusion, "Babs" ? I ask because it was me who posted the tune some years ago, and you're the first person since I first heard it played by Josie McDermott to suggest that Micho composed it.
My mistake Kenny. It was a faulty conclusion.
We play a tune which we refer to as "Micho Russell's Reel" I had heard it was the only tune he wrote. Now I see that isn't true. I do apologize.
Here is the tune, more or less. It obviously was being played before Micho Russell's time.
.. . mainly I was curious, & still am, about Irish musicians who, like Hammy Hamilton, may have at least one tune attributed to him or her. It seems there are many tunes which have a version attributed to such & such. Perhaps only a few were written by such & such. "Kerfunten" is clearly a jig written by Hammy Hamilton.
Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far.
We have taken in a lot of the feedback and one of the things we've decided to do is break the composers up into 6 categories
A. The Big Guns
B. A Few Good Tunes
C. One Hit Wonders
D. The Next Generation
E. Undiscovered Collections
F. The Outsiders
These categories allow for easier navigation of the composers and whilst I'm sure some of the divisions will prove controversial to some, we really have to divide it up like this for logical reasons.
The home page describes the divisions.
The Outsiders section is for composers who aren't usually associated with Irish trad but are there because their tunes have been adapted into the tradition.
Hope this makes it all clearer and easier to navigate.
Babs, Micho didn't compose that tune, the Russells got that one from Patrick Flanagan, the concertinaplayer who gave them much of their music.
The only claim to composition Micho had consists of a few bars in 'the Hut in the Bog' which he didn''t get when he learned the tune and filled in. He is on record saying that.
Wouldn't just an alphabetical index of composers plus maybe an outsider category be a more clear way. Most categories would be fairly subjective anyhow. I mean, 'undiscovered collections' one man's daily bread may be another man's undiscovered treasure. And what about some composers who have collections with dozens of tunes but only one good one in it? One hit wonders? And 'the Nest Generation' will you make an entry for previous generations of composers like Walker Jackson? 'The Previous Generation'?
What I mean to say is that an alphabetical index by name is usually much clearer than first having to second guess where the indexer might have placed a person. There's a lot to be said for keeping things simple.
I think the alphabetical approach does more justice t oa few people there, putting Finbarr and Ritchie Dwyer in the 'a few good tunes' category is in my eyes an insult to their output.
I didn't spot Breandan McGlinchey this time but if you do a bit of research you'll find he his output includes a surprising number of very wellknown tunes. He just lets them out and his name only got attached to the few.
And there are a few in the 'undiscovered' category that will surprise a good few of of us, that they are considered 'undiscovered' I mean.
Also, there are people in the mightily condescendingly named 'one hit wonders' who are responsible for more than the one tune you happen to be aware of. Alphabetical arrangement will avoid you having to move them once you learn more about their output and letting that category disappear will also the composers involved a bit more respect. I personally cringe at seeing Bobby Casey described as a 'one hit wonder'.
A. The Big Guns
B. A Few Good Tunes
C. One Hit Wonders
D. The Next Generation
E. Undiscovered Collections
F. The Outsiders
!! This must be a wind up - it just has to be, it's so ridiculous. While you're at it, you need a category for the numerous and varied self penned compositions that people submit here.
G. The Mustard Composers
also
H. Hidden Composers
I. Unknown Composers
and
J. Just Poseurs!!
Don't get me wrong - It's an interesting idea to have a collection of background info. on various people who have contributed greatly but after that, IMHO, it just becomes unfocused and meaningless - KISS, 'keep it simple stupid'
It's getting towards the following:
Once people played tunes and were happy.
The the CD became de rigeur - a mark of having made it.
Now it seems you can add, being added to the pantheon of great composers of Irish Traditional Music!! - of course, with credits and perhaps a few royalties on the side.
Bit OTT as an observation but perhaps towards the truth?
I'm would think that Darach de Brun, Carl Hession and Fintan McManus will be delighted - but perhaps surprised - to find themselves included in the "Next Generation" of "younger" composers .
hehe I was thinking that too, Darech is well into his fifties and some of his tunes (he has many more than he's given credit for on the site) I have been playing for thirty years or so.
Agreed. Surely, the relevance(however tenuous) can be explained within the main body of the information relaring to the particular composer? Then the reader can decide for his or herself whether to investigate further.
Your classification system is actually pretty awkward. If I was going to that website looking for a tune composer or a tune and saw it arranged in that manner, my first thought would be "what the f*ck does that mean!" It's too subjective and doesn't mean anything to people who aren't in your head, who don't know why you categorized people the way you did.
For example, how in earth are James Kelly, Chris Langan, and Josephine Keegan "undiscovered collections?" Undiscovered by whom? You? Obviously every website in the world will show, to some degree, the predilictions and biases of its creator, but you should try to minimize this by categorizing your data in as objective a manner as possible.
Any tune played by a traditional musician enters the tradition now? Will they put up Ben Bernie and Maceo Pinkard now because Gavin and Cooney played 'Sweet Georgia Brown' with Grapelli?
I also have doubts about cutting and pasting biographies from Wikipedia (and other sites). I appreciate that it takes a lot more time and research to write bios yourself and you are doing this in your spare time, but when I read a cut-n-paste job from Wikipedia, I can't help but think, "Really?"
While it is laudable to have the goal of having all this data about tune composers aggregated on one website, I think you need to have a better, and more professional, website, compiling and organising information, than what someone could find for themselves on Google or even on the tune section of the Mustard Board.
One good reason to never use Wikipedia as a source is that Andrew Kuntz has taken to spamming entries from The Fiddler's Companion into it (with pseudo-third-person testimonials to himself as a "musicologist"). So we now have two levels of unchecked BS.
We're losing faith in the world with some of these angry responses.
For the last time.
We're doing this in our own time, for nothing but the wish to spread information about these composers.
We're bound to make mistakes in doing this as we don't have a huge resource of researchers, that is in effect why we decided to post the prototype website here.
We very much welcome people telling us (in a nice way) where we've got things wrong, so the information about Niel Gow from John J is very helpful for example.
We realised from previous posts on this discussion that there are so many composers that without some kind of sub-categorisation it would be incredibly messy. We may revise the categorisation titles in a while.
We ARE going to have an alphabetical index also.
Composers can easily be moved to another category once we find out more about them.
Silver Spear, the Kelly, Langan and Keegan collections are placed in 'undiscovered' because as far as we can tell only a small amount of their tunes, if any, are widely played.
We're happy to be proved wrong on this, so if you can list a bunch of well known commonly played tunes by each we're happy to move them to another category.
The more we learn about the composers we're less familiar with then the more likely it is we might move them to another category. We have already moved Bobby Casey out of 'one hit wonders'.
Finally, to the aggressive, cynical posters, we don't understand where your anger comes from. If you'd like to contribute polite, constructive advice we'd welcome it.
Otherwise, please stop attaching us for doing something well meaning!!!
It's a frustrating life, Peter, actually having standards of research and writing!
@Tune Composer,
I agree with Jack -- blind trust in Wikipedia is a bad thing!
Another problem with the copy-n-paste method is that it shows how little thought you seem to be putting into what you paste and why, and you really don't want it to show that. For example, your entry for Paddy Keenan was, as you say, cut and pasted from the biography on his website. It is very obvious to me that the bio was originally written and posted in 1997 to promote his then-new album, Na Keen Affair. I found it a bit jarring to be reading a biography on your website discussing the mid-90s as if they were yesterday.
The trouble with seeking advice on a forum such as this and indeed on the WWW in general is that everyone wants to have a say. However, I wish the project well.
I would concur with those who suggest that things are kept as simple as possible though.
On a lighter note, I can't resist commenting on Jack's last post re Wikipedia and the spamming from The Fiddlers Companion.
There's just no end to the mischief that these "Kuntz" can get up to...
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
I think you are mistaken about aggression. I asked you for a bit of care and the common decency of asking for permission to use material before you put it on your website.
You used material that 'belongs' to me on three separate occasions without any reference to where it was sourced. I have pointed out to you 'all it takes is to ask, I don't ask for more'.
There's rather a disconnect between your championing the rights of acknowledgement of the composers and the way you treat your own source. Or was I just the unlucky one who went unacknowledged on three items?
Silver Spear, if you would like to refer us to a more recent bio or even write something yourself about Paddy then we would be happy to post that instead.
In an ideal world we'd have loads of funding and time, could have a really fancily designed website and could hire people to write original articles about all these composers.
Until such time as we do I'm afraid you're all gonna have to put up with official biogs from out of date websites and wikipedia links!
This is a prototype website, like any prototype it needs constructive critical evaluation, testing and tweaking.
People are offering you constructive advice about how to make your site into a better and more useful resource.
The problem (or one of them) with categories like "undiscovered collections" is that there is simply no way around HUGE geographical and epistemic biases. For instance, Chris Langan's tunes are widely known in Eastern Canada, but not Scotland. Gordon Duncan, a very well known and prolific Scottish composer, penned tunes which are frequently played by Irish trad players in Scotland but not, as far as I can tell, by Irish trad players in the US or Ireland. Simon Bradley, a fiddle player originally from Manchester but who spent many years in Edinburgh, has written several tunes which are played frequently in Scotland but not elsewhere. Is he "undiscovered?"
I know a few people who have composed at least one tune which has become extremely popular, but to be honest, I would not like them to be classified as "one hit wonders" so I'm not happy saying who they are.
Why not leave the bio section blank, or have a sentence asking users to submit a short biography?
The rock climbing community of the UK has kind of an aggregate site, and one of the sections of it has information on and locations of crags and mountains. The name and location of pretty much every climbable crag in Britain is on the site, but it relies on users to put up information about the routes on the crag. The site owners/moderators don't search through Google to fill in blanks from people's blogs or whatever. If no one has put up route descriptions on the site, they're just not there, and if you're going to such a crag, you need to be all retro and use an actual guidebook.
Sorry guys, I like the idea and I wish you well but to be honest you look way out of your depth.
You have no decent classification, no single form for your entries, your knowledge is scattered and basically second hand, it is unclear what material, if anything, you have contributed yourselves.
With a bit of care, this could be a great resource but you need to go back to the drawing board and do the legwork, set yourself a bit of a standard and if need be contact people who can help you. I think you'll find there are more people willing to help you than you realise, if you approach them in the right way. You'll need a vision and the ability to look at your work with a critical eye. Do not just rake anything you find together, it will only create a mess. Obviously.
The way I see it you are spending the goodwill you started out with rapidly and that's a shame.
Well to be fair, the authors behind the site can be as subjective as they like and they can arrange categories and classifications to suit their own sensibilities. There's no law against that. But if they want their efforts to be useful and taken seriously, perhaps it calls for a different approach?
Unfortunately, any project dealing with compiling and organising HUGE amounts of data whilst remaining functional and user friendly, will entail a lot of time and research. Otherwise you end up with, as Peter said, a mess. I hate to be discouraging, but honestly, "raking together" anything and everything you found and pigeon-holing it into a ramshackle and unclear classification system isn't going to provide the resource I think you guys want to provide.
Initially it can be useful to limit the amount of data by formatting your entries to a basic set of biographical information and an index of the tunes associated with the composer (now that last bit can be a bit of a job but it's essential to list the tunes and in too many cases those listings are non existent or incomplete).
Ofcourse you need to cross reference tunes and their composers so that you can come to the site to see if a tune has a known composer.
So start setting up a sensible framework to cover those bits and the just start working away at it, don't try do it all at once, just take one composer at the time and do a thorough job on the entry so your user can rely on the information you supply.
Meanwhile you can have skeleton entries, with just the name of the composer and any tunes with known associations to the person.
At the later stage you can add a bibliography and discography, with a focus on the tunes so you have to distinguish between recorded output of the composer and the recordings of the compositions (which can be by anybody).
People will realise it's a work in progress so you'll be forgiven for any omissions in advance. You'll also avoid the impression of your site being a botch job.
" only a small amount of their tunes, if any, are widely played"
With reference to Josie Keegan, I respectfully submit the following :
Recordings of Josie Keegan compositions - according to “links” here at the “Recordings” section of “thesession.org” - which I grant you will not be perfect.
1 - “The Gates Of Mullagh” - on 6 recordings [ including her own ] - certainly recorded by Colin Nea, and Brid Harper & Dermot Byrne. 29 musicinas here have included it in their "virtual" tune book.
2 - “The Cap And Bell” - on 20 recordings [ including her own ]. Very probably increased by the inclusion of "Out On The Road" as an alternative title. I don't have time to check out all the recordings. In 28 tune books.
3 - “The Aughacashel” - on 60 recordings - not! It’s been given the title “Sean Ryan’s”, and that’s skewed the total, but at a guess, at least a quarter of those recordings are of this reel, which we had long debate about several years ago. Certainly recorded by "Danu" and Kevin Crawford and Marcus Hernon. It's in 41 tune books.
4 - “The Curlew” - 56 recordings, but skewed slightly by Scottish recordings of a jig by the same name, and also the mistaken alternative title of “The Road To Cashel”. Even so, I’d reckon at least a quarter would be Josie’s tune. Probably made famous by "Altan", also recorded by John Whelan and Eileen Ivers, and Niall Keegan. It's in 266 tune books.
5 - “Ronnie Cooper” - on 17 recordings [ including 2 of her own ]. In 39 tune books.
She has many more, but in my opinion, these would be her best-known compositions.
I haven't seen any "angry" responses here - critical, yes, and you have to accept that, as you started the discussion.
I'm willing to help you with any knowledge I possess, and I think many people here are like-minded, but I will continue to point out any factual inaccuracies I come across. Any opinions I express, you can take or leave. I wish you the best of luck in your venture, but fear that with such wide criteria, you have underestimated the size of the task you have taken on.
A bit of a side line here: I came across a site or publication (can't remember where) recently concerning Larry Redican, included in the tunes was a version of The Legacy that left me wondering if that was one of his. Anyone have any ideas?
You can make your categories alphabetical, but in groups of letters, so you don't have 26 tabs on your website, which is a bit awkward. You can divide the alphabet so you have tabs for "A-E," "F-K," "L-Q," and so on, or in whatever chunks appropriate. Under each composers name, you can have a "tunes" section, a "biography" section, and a recordings/discography section. Like what Peter suggested above. That way you can easily fit in the information you have and leave the rest blank until such a date as it can be added. Thus, if the only tune you know of written by John Carty is Seanamhac Tube Station, it would be in a list under his name. If you later discover another tune he wrote, it would be very straightforward to add it to the list. In the current format, this information is contained in a descriptive paragraph and I think that makes it more work to change.
Just sailed into a few Tommy Whelan tunes, Whelan's Old Sow. Humours of Loughrea and there's the eponymous one as well. I am not full 100% on his status as the composer of those but I have on occasion seen them attributed to him. Probably worth putting on the to-do list.
At the end of the day, it's up to you how you want the website to be used. If you want it to be THE online source people use to find out who composed a tune, it has to be suitably slick and professional to encourage people to take it seriously. If it's too amateurish and/or awkward to use, people just won't use it.
That said, Peter Browne the piper did a recording with Philip King, I remember having a a little 45 rpm that had two tunes, one of them The Wardrobe that one of them had written, their CD has more composed music I believe but I am not sure who did the writing.
"Of course you need to cross reference tunes and their composers so that you can come to the site to see if a tune has a known composer. "
This bit seems to be lacking on many databases. It's no simple task though.
Thanks for setting me straight on Micho Russell. Always happy to learn what I can about the Russell's.
Right, I just saw the name on the website and the brain went on a string of associations. I heard Sharon S. play that one on the whistle so I I sort of assume that's not the Peter Brown I was thinking of, instrumentalists do initially keep to their own circle I suppose .
There's a lot of myth about the Russells, as things go I suppose.
I was just thinking of the time Mickeleen Conlon went to Dublin to play on The Pure Drop. A good few North and West Clare musicians who knew him were sh*tting themselves when he was telling Noel Hill about the man who gave him the tunes he was about to play. spinning yarns. it can be so tempting don't you think
There have been a few comments about the copyright issue.
Here are our revised thoughts on the issue.
Firstly, we have a disclaimer on the website home page which says the following
'In order to build this site we have searched for relevant information about these composers. We aim to credit use of any material we didn't produce ourselves.
If you are the author or copyright holder of any such material and would like credit or would like the information removed then please contact us through the claim form below.
If you are the composer or you represent the composer please contact us regarding any information you would like changed, removed, clarified or added.'
We think that is a fair enough way to deal with anyone who has issues with us using their stuff. There are countless websites and blogs nowadays which post copyright material, some of which I'm sure many of you use. Youtube being a pertinent example.
It s simply not feasible for us to find out who every copyright owner is and then to contact them. It is pretty much standard practice regarding internet copyright to put up a disclaimer and then take down anything that the copyright owner doesn't want there.
We have already taken down several things that one individual claims copyright over (even one he has no grounds for copyrighting!)
Some more thoughts,
1) We initially thought folks might appreciate having useful information about these composers all posted in one place.
We now see this rankles with some people concerned about copyright.
Over the next while we will remove anything we did not write ourselves and instead just leave links to where we found it.
2) Regarding photos, it would look pretty bad if we didn't have photos of each composer, we don't have the resources to find out who took each photo and then ask permission to use them.
We would hope most photographers will understand this is not a commercial venture and so they will be ok with this.
Indeed regarding photographers, they regularly take and publish photos of people without asking permission, so it is a bit rich of them to be so protective of copyirght in this regard.
3) Someone suggested to us they own the copyright to a transcription they made of one of these composers tunes! The question must be asked of them is if they had permission from the composer's estate to make this transcription! You cannot copyright an 'arrangement' or 'transcription' of a piece that is still in copyright!
So the copyright issue is tricky. We do know that academic standards relating to copyright say it is ok to quote material so long as it is properly referenced.
We will take this approach once we have time to properly do it.
4) Official biographies are freely distributed to the press for the purpose of publc domain publicity. I'm sure none of the composers who have put their official biographies out there will complain about them being reproduced here! If any of them does we will remove it.
5) Someone emailed us suggesting that Eugene Chadbourne wrote the biography of Paddy Fahey we have pasted from Wikipedia.
We can assure you in all confidence that he did not and that page and several other pages on wikipedia were created and written by one of us.
Incidentally, this short bio has been copied and pasted onto numerous websites but it doesn't bother us in the slightest because we are delighted to spread the word about him and every other trad composer.
6) Finally THIS IS A PROTOTYPE WEBSITE!!!! So please don't expect it at this early stage to be definitive or completely professional looking.
We're not professional web designers our journalists, we are not funded by any organisation, we just like Irish tune composers and want to spread the word about them.....
'Indeed regarding photographers, they regularly take and publish photos of people without asking permission, so it is a bit rich of them to be so protective of copyirght in this regard.'
I agree tune composer , I think it outrageous that a photographer is able to take an individuals photo without express permission. Let alone then going and publishing it on the internet.
I've had my photo taken and published without any permission asked. Surely I have copyright over my own image
It would be a bit pedantic to pursue anyone who ever photographed me without permission though, just as it's a bit pedantic to pursue someone creating what is basically a hobby website with no commercial end.
The interesting thing is you put up your copyright disclaimer, offer to take material down when you're caught out and then go on berating and generally p*ssing off the people who take you up on your offer.
As I said, you're about to use up the last bits of goodwill left if you continue to go on the defensive in this manner.
Yep, I'm saying it's true, TTC, and just pointing out that you have no rights to any of the photographs displayed upon your site unless you or one of your collaborators has taken them.
Interesting point there TC, ownership of image. Generally anyone can take a picture in public as long as they are not using it for commercial gain. Furthermore, by publishing that picture on the net without a legal disclaimer also puts the original photographer at risk because anyone can then take that picture and use it for commercial gain.
Different countries have different laws, your mileage may vary.
I have also repeatedly told you 'all you have to do is ask' , which meant I left the door open for you to ask for help or photographs. I was up to a point giving you the benefit of the doubt. Instead, you go on the defensive and blame me for your woes. It's then the door will shut, realise that, and it's firmly closed for most things at this point.
I have no desire to ask you because you were so negative and cynical from your first post.
I don't want to use any of your stuff thanks very much. If anything else of yours is up there please tell me, show me proof it's yours and I'll gladly take it down.
You're happy enough to take the names I suggest though aren't you? You also know this whole thing is more telling about your attitude than it is about mine?
Prof. on the Paddy Ban O'Broin tune, were you thinking of Poor But Happy at 53? Cracking tune.
Tune Composer, naivete and nonchalance about copyright laws is no defense in court. You can steal and use other people's work only so far as you don't get caught and sued over it. That includes copyrighted tunes, photographs, and text. It doesn't matter whether your site is a hobby. Without permission, you're breaking laws left and right.
Also, the standard practice among professional photographers is, when capturing any image of a person where that person may be identifiable, you get that person's permission, in writing, or you don't use the image commercially. I've had many photos in print through a US publishing house that held to that standard, so I carried a pocket notebook and got written permission from anyone who appeared in the photos I published.
This is the European take (not much different most other places).
Asking permission is down to courtesy.
Take note especially:
"There is no copyright in the human face or form, and copying would anyway mean cloning them, not creating an image. An image of a person is copyright of the photographer."
Kids are a different matter, with differing laws, but copyright doesn't enter into it.
"Mr White said that one officer claimed that under the Prevention of Terrorism Act he was within in his rights to confiscate the mobile phone on which the photos were taken."
If that's what plod said, he should be given a bowlarking. Under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, only the Home Secretary or a court can invoke a control order restricting the use of phones, etc. Plod can't make arbitrary decisions. The infamous Section 44 of the Terrorism Act has been virtually repealed by The Terrorism Act 2000 (Remedial) Order 2011
(following an ECHR ruling in favour of of Gillan and Quinton). A senior police officer now has to give authorisation - and only if that officer has reasonable suspicion that an act of terrorism will take place (and that whatever measures taken are necessary to prevent such an act).
It's not paranoia as far as I'm concerned but some of us get a bit p*ssed off with the cult of obsessive photography which is all too common these days.
"Never mind the legality, what about good manners?"
Too right. It is awfully bad mannered to record somebody raiding a shop without asking if they mind.
Where do you draw the line? If somebody performs on stage, in front of a public audience, they should expect the odd photo to be taken. If the person is in the street, minding his or her own business, then courtesy should prevail.
This seems like a reasonable approach:
What rankles me about Tune Composer's use of material on his site is that his approach is "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission." That's a slacker's attitude to ethics.
Will, did you ask John Dwyer's permission to record his composition Finbarr Dwyer's Favourite and put it on the internet for anyone to freely download?
I see great improvement at the web site (as a result of the discussions here?). I'd suggest these things
1) State the source of the photos.
2) Be aware that there is a difference between using the publicity bio/photo materials from someone's website (and BTW you can ask permission for that quite easily), and lifting materials/photos from the work of others.
3) You really need to get permission for materials like photos and bio to avoid difficulties down the road. Probably you can get it almost every time, but legal and moral issues still say you should ask.
4) Add me to those who suggest that you place the titles of known tuns by composers into a simple list. Lots easier to edit, lots easier to use, and lots more quickly useful.
5) I don't think everything is just right, but I certainly see efforts to continue to improve it and to clean up the issues with source materials. That is all to the good. Bravo to you for those efforts and good luck on continuing to improve things.
You assume too much. No surprise--your whole approach is presumptuous.
I did actually seek permission before including the tune in a teaching booklet I handed out at a fiddle camp some years ago. What I got in response was not directly from John and inconclusive: "The tune isn't copyrighted, John would love knowing it's played."
You've posted stuff on your site without even having the courtesy to ask. Nothing to be proud of.
Hey, Prof - I think TTC has said quite clearly he doesn't want to use your material!!! So why keep pushing suggestions? You two 'guys' should really get together as you clearly have a common obsession!!
Maybe the way around many of the issues which have emerged here is that those who wish to embark on projects of this kind should, perhaps, refrain from posting their website "live" until it is fully complete, tweaked, and all the appropriate research has been verified with the necessary permissions obtained?
Of course, further material can still be added later but the "ground rules" will have been established.
I'm sure that there are enough knowledgeable people here and elsewhere who would be happy to communicate privately re such matters and view the "work in progress" offline.
Ideally, the same criteria should apply to all such projects although it never usually does. After all, you don't publish a book until it's complete, checked, and "proof read". So, why should these types of websites be any different?
True John, but book publishing is normally undertaken by professionals and even if you do an amateur job, because of the production costs, one is inclined to be a lot more careful to get it right.
Internet publishing for better or worse suits a 'suck it & see' type approach. Yes, you can expect higher standards but the norm is lower. TTC and friends apparently are just putting the site up as a hobby interest, so you can see how this approach has it's appeal.
I'm still unconvinced about the need to credit 'every' trad musician who puts up a 'new' tune, as the're hardly composers except in a strict technical sense. I can see some point in recording notes about those who are prolific.
I think care needs to be taken when using, without permission, only part of biographical material even if that was provided on a composer's website. Only part may be needed (you may have the rest from somewhere else) but if the bio was crafted to give an overal picture then using part of it may accidentaly portray the person in a way they don't like. You have broken their copyright so they have a legitimate reason to complain - even if your portrayal was correct. Many copyright holders say words to the effect of "you may use this but only in its entireity without change".
I can also see a situation where using one photograph out of several originally displayed together might be unfair on the subject(s), particularly if they cover a range of facial expressions.
There is no copyright on assertions, only on the words used to express them. If you rewrite a biography in your own words you're in the clear, even if it states exactly the same facts as those in your source.
"I'm still unconvinced about the need to credit 'every' trad musician who puts up a 'new' tune, as the're hardly composers except in a strict technical sense."
The less prolific are precisely the ones who most need to have their compositions credited properly. Otherwise the famous get to steal the credit for everything.
You're not quite right, Dave. So long as you reference your sources, you can quote whatever you find online, just as you can quote from a properly references book.
Tune Composer, if he is copy-pasting biographies, should at least include the full URL of where he found it. I also recommend that he at the very least take the time to read over and edit the information he pastes. You don't need to include reviews from a concert in 1998. Seriously. That just screams laziness to me. Not only can you not be bothered writing your own stuff, you can't even be bothered reading and thinking about what you quote from elsewhere.
"can quote whatever you find online, just as you can quote from a properly references book"
You can't quote whatever you like in the book world. It is still virtually impossible to quote a T.S. Eliot poem in a novel, and it was even harder in his lifetime.
Fair enough Spear. I guess its a matter of courtesy rather than copyright. I was backing off slightly from what I said somewhere way above along the lines of "you can quote if you know the rules" because of the lazyness exhibited.
There is a dange that talking part of a source even with proper referencing might upset someone that it would be good to have on their side. For example a journalist may have written an article based on an interview that relied on the subject trusting the interviewer to use information fairly.
Photographers often do rely on trust betwen themselves and their subjects, even in the case of travel photos as discussed in the page linked by Weejie. They should be able to rely on their own copyright to enable them to keep any implied or explicit promises they make to their subjects. If not they may end up getting treated like paperazzi.
I've never tried quoting a T.S. Eliot poem in a novel (or written a novel), but I quoted one in a paper I wrote for a college English class once and never heard about it from his estate!
Tune Composer would do well to have a professional, well organized site which showed the amount of research and legwork he put into it. If he had created such a site, I don't think he would have trouble finding volunteers to write biographies and contribute tunes and composers. As it stands, I certainly would not lend my name, or even session.org pseudonym, to it.
hmm - I have to say, Dave and I may have had a few "disagreements" over the years, but I am really impressed by this site. Yes, there may be a few loose ends to tie up but in essence the idea is superb. The details can be patched up over time. I really think this is a great project, and thanks "tune composer".
"United States copyright law accords public domain status to works published prior to 1923. This allows the republishing of Eliot's poems first printed in The Smith Academy Record and The Harvard Advocate. The poem recited at Smith Academy's 1905 commencement was not published until Poems Written in Early Youth and its copyright status is left for others to decide. 'The Death of Saint Narcissus' was first published in Poems Written in Early Youth and so is likely to still enjoy copyright protection. Thus, for copyright reasons only The Harvard Advocate poems have been published here. "
"The less prolific are precisely the ones who most need to have their compositions credited properly. Otherwise the famous get to steal the credit for everything."
I don't wish to labour the point, but why Jack? Can you explain to me the importance of every Sean or Sinead Citizen getting 'proper credit' for tunes they came up with ... in the context of a folk music such as Irish Traditional Music?
'Can you explain to me the importance of every Sean or Sinead Citizen getting 'proper credit' for tunes they came up with ... in the context of a folk music such as Irish Traditional Music?'
You're having a laugh hussar, there's a thing called copyright we've been debating about here. Some of you seem very precious about copyright of the written word or photographs but when it comes to the compositions you actually play and get some enjoyment out of you don't seem to give a damn 'because it's folk music'.
'I did actually seek permission before including the tune in a teaching booklet I handed out at a fiddle camp some years ago. What I got in response was not directly from John and inconclusive: "The tune isn't copyrighted, John would love knowing it's played."
So you didn't actually ask John's permission to record it and put it online. Thanks for clearing that up.
John would indeed love to know it's being played and being played as nicely as you play it, but I'm sure he'd also appreciate being credited as the composer and being asked about it. You don't credit him at all on the page
But then of course you'd have to track him down and that's hard work isn't it.........same dilemma we have with this stuff.
To make things worse you are using the clip for your own personal gain i.e. for the students who pay you to teach them.
Incidentally, to say it isn't copyrighted is nonsense. Any piece of music of which the composer is known and either alive or deceased for 70 years or less is copyrighted.
It really irks me to see people criticising us for being 'lazy' when they're no different themselves..........
Anyway, we've had enough of this divisive debate.
We thank you all for your suggestions and we guarantee you in a few months this website will be much, much better and everything will be above board and copyright cleared.
To give an example of where it's headed, check out the page for Davy Rogers, a prolific composer of tunes from Galway.
He nicely sent us his bio, picture and list of tunes. They're all there listed on the site now.
"You're having a laugh hussar, there's a thing called copyright we've been debating about here."
No, I ain't laughing - just pondering on the clash of culture. And if you can't see that clash, that essential dislocation between a folk music rooted in community on the one side and the concepts of copyright and credits associated with individualism and commercialism on the other - well, I don't know.
Copyright isn't the black and white some people seem to think it is. Answer the following: Would you think it a violation of copyright, immoral, or unethical to play a tune with a known composer and post the video on YouTube without acknowledging the composer? Keeping in mind that many players who have picked up tunes from friends, sessions, recordings, etc. might not necessarily know who wrote the tune in question.
Would you think it a violation of copyright, immoral, or unethical to copy a photograph from someone's website and put it on your own?
Acknowledging the composer is the minimum (but I guess that's also something which I like from french copyright law).
If tunes are to be played in a session and allowed to undergo the folk process, then they must be released with the appropriate copyright notices. Otherwise, we can't legally play them (regardless or not of whether we make money). Obviously, morally we can play them - but is the line drawn at "I didn't make any money so it's ok" vs "playing this tune earned me thousands of dollars so the composer should get their cut"?
How on earth are tunes "released" to be played at a session. Recorded on an album, sure, but a session? Do you seriously think we can't play tunes with known composers at a session "without appropriate copyright notices?"
The point I was trying to obliquely get at with my above post was that a balance needs to be struck between people's right to get something, money, ackowledgement, etc. from their artistic endeavours and the communitarian nature of the "folk process" which has little regard for, as Hussar put it, individualism and commercialism.
yes equivalent, not only are you using someone's work [composition] but putting it on the internet. ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law.
As regards photos, well photos of what? does the website state copy write? Its in the public domain, just as a walker in the street is in public. Was a model release signed by the model? Whos making money? who is gaining publicity? who gains and who suffers? Which country and laws?
Morals are subjective, so a discussion of morality is fraught.
For example IMO its wrong to take a photo of anyone without express permission. legal or not its wrong. putting it up on a website just compounds the error.
If you or I place something in the public domain, without expressly indicating its not for copying or reproduction without permission then fair enough but without that? why should it be?
Look at the various laws around the world and enforcement of copywrite issues., look at you tube FFS , its full , full, of copy-write stuff. You got a problem with that? take it up with the host and Im sure they will take it down. Just as in TTC site.
The world moves a lot faster than out moded and out dated Laws . Catch up or get run over.
@TSS of course you cant play in public tunes from known composers without them getting a cut of any profit ! ye gods thats what copy write is all about. Whether the composer has copyrighted it or not , it IS copyrighted.
Are profits made? yes the bar gets a cut and they should be indemnified by paying to the MU. I think.
Dont point the finger at others without first making sure your hands are clean.
It's not illegal to play "them" in the UK. The onus is on the proprietor of the premises to obtain a licence for performance of music. At some time near to the renewal date for the licence, the licensee is sent a form to complete, and details of the music played should be given. This doesn't make it "illegal" for the musicians themselves to play composed tunes.
Are you saying then that before you go into a session, you carefully work out a set list that includes no copyrighted tunes?
"Sorry guys. We know the Oran Mor (our pub) isn't going to give any of tonight's profits to Ed Reavy, so we can't play the Hunter's House in the session tonight."
Not at all, Unless the tune/photo/ is clearly marked as the property of someone, not to be reproduced .
If someone's got a problem with it they can contact us! Just as on the internet people cut and paste all the time, you want to police the internet? good luck to you.
The whole concept of ownership , certainly of intellectual property is of huge concern to the music industry , just as it is to the film industry . The west is busily trying to enforce its standards globally. Without much success yet.
Note Im not commenting on Morals because they differ from person to person. I object to someone attempting to enforce their particular moral code on others who have different standards.
right and wrong are very subjective. Is there absolute right and absolute wrong? .....
The law prosecute the man who takes the goose from the common, but not the man who takes the common from the goose.
"I object to someone attempting to enforce their particular moral code on others who have different standards.
right and wrong are very subjective" Thats one reason why we have laws. For example, the right to be identified as an author of a work, and what you have to do to ensure that someone who does not identify you can be had up for breaking that law is written down. If it goes against your moral code, that's your problem.
I'm tickled by Will's claim that 'Morals are subjective'. This is arrant nonsense. It's a while since I've visited East Clare, but, unless things have changed dramatically, I suspect that the majority of its inhabitants are opposed to murder, burglary, rape or kidnapping. Then again, I could be wrong.
We have laws David? who is we? your laws do not apply in my country. The laws of this land do not apply in your country, why are people so busy trying to apply their laws to other countries? @ to maintain ownership.
So for example a cure for a terrible disease is intellectual property, rightfully, but at what point do the rights of those dying supersede the rights of the 'owner'.?
Laws of property, well have you noticed that the 1% and the 99% are having disagreements over who has rights to What.
If the 1% make the laws, which they break with impunity, to control the 99% , to maintain their wealth, at what point does the system break down? What is Moral and what is legal do not always coincide by a long shot.
By the way your mistake their David, its not my problem, its the problem of those that wish to maintain ownership over intellectual property.
Crossed with piobagusfidil. As I said, there will be something similar in most jurisdictions. I know we get slagged for quoting wikipedia, but I doubt that in this case it is less reliable than this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors'_rights
So are you saying that you don't think someone who composes a tune that enters the tradition should have any rights over it ?
an aside to answer Mac;
~Opposed to Murder rape and kidnapping? well yes I am, which is one reason I choose to live in Ireland, a country that unlike the UK does not uses these as tools for political and economic control, engages in wars and invasions casing huge mass deaths, that uses these things and the threat of them to terrorise thats whole wealth base is built upon slavery and centuries of going round the world robbing, raping and killing to gain pecuniary advantage.. Right and Wrong? hmmm
Mac is obviously not aware of the philosophical debate that has surrounded these issues for centuries. Is it OK to Torture? to Kill? to Rob?
Was it right to Firebomb Dresden? Hiroshima? Is it ok to torture if it saves a million children? To kill? Rob, rape? You got any glib answers?
The conversation is about intellectual property and the rights and wrongs of using this property unaccredited.
Its clear that anyone playing a tune composed by a living composer is using that persons intellectual property [though of course there are many countries and laws. ]
Who thinks its OK to play a tune by Liz Carrol, uncredited, in a session/gig? Is it ok if your not being paid? is it ok if your record it under a different name? Do you ask before hand if the LL is paying the IMRO fees? do you care?
Does anyone thinjk there is a moral difference between playing a tune in a pub and putting a photo on the net?
"Does anyone thinjk there is a moral difference between playing a tune in a pub and putting a photo on the net?" (piobagusfidil) Yes.
Now answer my question "So are you saying that you don't think someone who composes a tune that enters the tradition should have any rights over it ?" (me) Yes or No ?
This "entering the tradition" thing is subjective. If you consider that you have composer's rights over a tune, then, staying with the legality issue, your tune ain't traditional. There are quite clear rules as far as that is concerned.
Composer's rights don't disappear if your auntie Jean played a tune for you that you later record, only to find out that it was composed by your uncle Jim.
<<So are you saying that you don't think someone who composes a tune that enters the tradition should have any rights over it ?" (me) Yes or No ?>>
legal right? or moral rights?
My point is that most everyone here plays tunes in sessions and neither accredit or give royalties to the owners of that intellectual copywrite. Are they right, but someone who copies a picture wrong? why?
Someone said on a previous thread that "Tradition" came from the same root as "Trade" and that it was about passing things round, much as is said on the home page for this site. I haven't checked that, but for the purpose of the question I was thining of "entered the tradition" as meaning it was passed on from player to player instead of or as in additon to being recorded or published as a score.
Si I guess Uncle Jim's tune would have started on a journey into the tradition before it was recorded whether or not Auntie Jean attributed it. So far as UK legislation is concerned it seems that unless Uncle Jim had waived his rights he still has them, but if he had not asserted them you would not get into trouble for not attributing the tune down in the pub or on the CD sleeve,
<<not get into trouble >> so its ok ? put aside the fact that he is the copyrite owner and has a right to a percentage of any monies earnt , because its ok, he doesnt know about it? or what do you mean?
He has a right to be identified and to payment whether he waives it , or not. But the onus is clearly on the performers to search out the owner and attribute the work., just saying you didn't know is no excuse in the eyes of the law.
"or what do you mean?" I mean what it says on the two links to UK legislation. Read what it says about asserting rights (and don't confuse what you read with any idea of having to 'copyright' something). If you don't take the time to understand that right to be identified and rights to royalties are different aspects of intellectual property then you are going to carry on confusing yourself.
'My point is that most everyone here plays tunes in sessions and neither accredit or give royalties to the owners of that intellectual copywrite. Are they right, but someone who copies a picture wrong? why?'
Simple performance of a tune at a session does not accrue royalties for the composer of that tune. Recording that performance and then publishing it in some form does so. Is that clear?
The same applies. A photograph is only subject to copyright once it has been published and its owner asserts ownership. If someone then uses said photograph without the copyright owner's permission, then copyright has been breached.
And the recording of the session is a much easier thing to compare with a photograph.
No sure about some of that though Mac, I think these days in most jurisdictions copyright is automatic on creation of anything. And the bar on 'creativity' is set rather low, so it seems to include random snaps on a mobile phone
Yes generally it's automatically copyrighted. David reread your link. Your confusing yourself. @ wallis ;public performance are covered, it's not just recordings.@ David a recording of a session , or recording a tune and putting it on the net, or transcribing a tune and uploading that transcription are closer to the photo . So should Jer check every tune here?
Yawn. I read the link fine piobagusfidil. I was being cautious because a) picking bits out of legislation is risky and b) I was disagreeing with MacCruiskeen about something complicated and in some ways unclear.
No-one mentioned transcribing a tune. Its difficult enough without you confusing the issue.
It is obvious that authorship will sometimes get forgotten during traditional transmission. Responsible 'editors' are mindful that their may be rights that cannot be traced. But, as indicated above, the offer to remove material that infringes rights should be a fall-back measure rather than a cop-out for the lazy. Have a look at the tunes database here for tunes that have known composers.
No, your wrong David, I am not the first to mention a tune transcription. Sorry you find that confusing. Its quite simple really; The internet is a zone not controlled by any one government. If someone has a problem with something uploaded they can take it up with the site, if that is unsuccessful they can take it up with the owner of the server. if that is unsuccessfully they can maybe take it to court, maybe.
A tune transcription, is not the tune, just as a photograph of a piece of art is not the art, its a representation. If someone, or their estate, wishes to profit by printing a book of transcriptions of self penned tunes then a transcription of that tune by someone else without permission , on the net, can and does deprive the owner of that intellectual property the right to profit by their work which is why transcriptions can be made legally for private educational use , as long as they are not published, such as online in which case the owners of the estate have the sole right to authorise that transcription just as the the owner has sole right to authorise a public performance.
Will, you have written a lot of blather but have not answered the question I (too subtlely) implied earlier: would *you* play a tune at a session which had a known composer? To make it even more complicated, lets pretend it's session at Willie Week when there are quite a lot of people about recording stuff with mobile phones and digital cameras.
"Someone said on a previous thread that "Tradition" came from the same root as "Trade"
Well, that person was wrong ('tradition' comes from Latin, and 'trade' has Germanic roots) - but that isn't the point. I said "staying with the legality issue" - i.e. copyright.
If you assert your legal rights over a composition (i.e. royalties), it isn't so much "handed down" as "sold down the line". The attribution "traditional" in a publishing sense, would preclude any compositional rights. On the other foot, even if something was handed down through your family, it doesn't deny compositional rights to the author.
Looking again at "entering the tradition" - does a tune have to be handed down through generations or can a tune be "traditional" even though it is freshly composed?
The term is loosely used. Some seem to apply it to any tune within the idiom.
The PRS is supposed to funnel appropriate royalties to the composers of tunes played at sessions, via its licencing and sampling system. In practice it doesn't work at all well, but there is no legal reason to avoid playing in-copyright tunes in most sessions in the UK and no alternative to the PRS that's both practically and morally better.
Oh, I thought you were trying to open up the bag of worms about demands for performing rights payments being made to venues where sessions were held. A bit off-topic don't you think ?
The situation may be that though composers don't get a mention each time a tune is played at a session their authorship is still known 'within the culture'.
How many times have you asked someone for the name of a tune they just played and they said, "I don't know?" I personally have a ton of tunes I picked from sessions or from albums where they don't give tune names that I haven't even names for, much less composers. And that is a very crowded boat to be in. I have even been in situations where I met composers of fairly well-known tunes I've played for years and when they said, "I wrote X," it was completely new information to me. These things can and do get passed around the session scene without any attribution attached.
Not even the shiny new tune composer website would help with that. Nor, in its current incarnation, does it help anyone find out if the tune they are about to record on their new album has a known composer, since it doesn't as yet have a function where you can search for tunes.
And I was opening a can of worms with regards to whether anyone has "rights" to tunes "performed" (Jack Gilder, where are you?!) at sessions. Just because we haven't had a proper knock-down-drag-out here in a few weeks and we are due for one.
Tunepal is supposed to identify the tunes (I haven't tried it but I believe it basically works). Once you've got the name a tune/composer database can do the rest. No need for one service to do both.
"If you consider that you have composer's rights over a tune, then, staying with the legality issue, your tune ain't traditional."
You could be on the right track there now, Weejie but I reckon it'd be kinda contentious with a lot of people here. As far as I know, new tunes are generally considered traditional if they fit within the tradition, so we enjoy playing Hunters House, The Mist Covered Mountains etc etc. regularly here.
But your idea is good, I think. To wit, if you as a traditional musician make up a new tune, it fits within the tradition AND you are happy to see it played widely & freely by all other exponents of the tradition, then it should be considered part of the tradition.
On the other hand, if you make up a new tune and insist on copyright entitlements, then regardless of whether it fits with the tradition, it ain't traditional.
Maybe that's of use to TTC - perhaps you should only feature tune composers who fit first criteria.
"As far as I know, new tunes are generally considered traditional if they fit within the tradition, "
Well, what I was getting at was more of - if a tune is given the attribute"traditional" in the publishing world, it kind of waives any composer royalties (more the "arrangement" rights or "Trad arr" label). But this has just about summed up the bigger picture. "Traditional" seems to have taken on a new meaning. Looked at literally, the word is defined as "handed down" (from the Latin traditionem - delivery, surrender, a handing down - interestingly, the word "treason" has the same roots) and the modern context is "handed down from generation to generation". Other aspects are generally applied with regard to music - the oral transmission, for example. So, with that in mind, can you say a tune by a contemporary composer is traditional? Obviously, if it has not been transmitted through generations, then it wouldn't fit the definition above. So, is it the style that gives it the designation "traditional"? If so, where is the tradition? A tradition of playing tunes in that style (this would seemingly fit other genres)? Is it the manner in which the players play the music? Well, it used to be that players would play the music in each other's homes - pub sessions were not the "tradition". The word might be seen to be a description of the structure (does a tune have to be a jig, reel etc, or is the melodic structure the factor more than the rhythmic structure?). Is it this "oral transmission"? Is it no longer traditional if somewhere along the transmission line a bit of manuscript paper was exchanged?
An example in Scotland is the facility to take up "traditional music" as an academic pursuit, where there seems to be an emphasis on "oral transmission", even though notation is recognised. The music is not "handed down" in this case, but "handed out" as part of a curriculum - something that seems rather remote from this "generations handing down music orally" picture. Yon teenager with his or her overdriven Fender Strat through a practice amp could just as easily have learned a riff orally (and this went on back in the days of skiffle - it has gone on through generations), passed on by another guitar player (or from a CD, just like a fiddler might pick up a tune - or does this negate the traditional aspect?) - does that make this style of music traditional?
Yes, this no doubt opens a can of worms, but it does illustrate how loosely the word "traditional" is applied. There is a distinct style of music, but the word used to describe it is not necessarily used literally. "Composers of traditional music" might be seen as an oxymoron to some - i.e. it couldn't be traditional at the time of composition if it hadn't gone through the process of becoming traditional. If it has to have gone through that process to qualify as traditional (the handing down), then the list of composers on the website could be considerably abridged.
Is it "in the publishing world" or "in the performing rights database world". Does "based on a Transylvanian folk tune" get coded as "Trad arr" ? Does an aversion to bringing aspects of the term "folk music" into the discussion mean that some aspects of the overloaded term "traditional" are getting passed over ?
"Performing rights" are assigned to "published works" (publishing doesn't necessarily mean printed through a publisher - to "make the author known publicly" would probably suffice) - so both.
If something is based on a Transylvanian folk tune, that is basically what it is - the "trad arr" would involve the assertion by the person who did the "arr" (who might claim a bit more than "arr", rather complete composition rights, as it depends on how "based" the tune is) - without that claim, it's merely "trad".
And yes, the aversion to the term "folk music" probably has a lot to do with "traditional" being used more broadly.
"if a tune is given the attribute "traditional" in the publishing world, it kind of waives any composer royalties"
There are two different senses of the word "traditional" being used here. One is about the idiom of the tune - which in no way affects whether or not somebody is entitled to composer's royalties for it. The other is about its provenance - but the law doesn't recognize a category of tunes whose composer's identity is to be ignored.
There's an often-played Scottish reel sometimes called The Traditional Reel, sometimes Donald MacLeod's Reel. It seems Donald MacLeod wrote it. It lives up to its name, it is in a traditional style. It's still in copyright, though. I don't know whether Donald MacLeod's estate is collecting on it - maybe not, as the sums involved won't amount to much. The ownership issue would be taken a bit more seriously if somebody used it as the theme for a blockbuster movie.
"One is about the idiom of the tune - which in no way affects whether or not somebody is entitled to composer's royalties for it"
Yes - the idiom. One would say "traditionally, the tunes are structured thus" (though there are reasonably wide margins).
"Traditional style" could also mean "conventional style" in this respect. Structural regularities that conform to a particular style of music.
There are also certain structural regularities in reggae music, or soul music etc and this is due in no small part to traditional process. However, when a tune is given the attribute "traditional" by, say, the recording industry, there are clearly no royalties involved for composition (traditional in this case basically means anonymous).
To actually say "I've composed a traditional tune" should be read as "I've composed a tune in a traditional style". It still would make that term rather loose IMO.
"but the law doesn't recognize a category of tunes whose composer's identity is to be ignored." Is it just that there is no handy single word within the law ? I think the law would recognise "Unknown - public domain - arr ... " and "Niel Gow - public domain - arr. ..." or even "Living composer - public domain - arr ..." if the composer had chosen to do that. I guess a publisher wouldn't want to just put "Unknown - arr ..." though even if that was accurate and unavoidable.
So if someone has been dead for so long that the copyright will have expired do we acknowledge him out of interest to ourselves and others rather than due to any moral right ? Is recognition of those in the past about us or them ?
I think the interest here in http://irishtunecomposers.weebly.com/ has been both interest to self on the part of users and as an opportunity to recognise composers.
Yoy've listed a composer on your site as "Lep McCann", which I think was what someone posted near the beginning of this discussion. I think the name meant is Leo McCann, accordion and whistle player from Co. Armagh, now resident in Edinburgh.
You're quite correct, "Weejie". Haven't seen Leo in 10 years or so, but he's coming up to Aberdeen in a few weeks time for the Squeezebox & Moothies festival.
I'm having second thoughts about this. We'll have to ask him. What I'm pretty sure of is Leo telling me that he learned a lot of his music from the Armagh Pipers Club, ergo..................maybe I made a wrong assumption.
Sorry about going off topic here.
An interesting reversal here - a tune composed by an Irish musician, which has probably been recorded more by Scottish musicians than Irish.
The same would be true of "The Pumpkin's Fancy".
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2185
Frances O'Connor for the above. "Sliabh Notes" also recorded another 4 of his tunes on the same CD as this one, all of them great tunes.
Some people won't like it, but you'd have to include Finbar Furey for his "Lonesome Boatman"...........................taxi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
" What I'm pretty sure of is Leo telling me that he learned a lot of his music from the Armagh Pipers Club, ergo.................."
Leo is from Benburb, Co. Tyrone. It's walking distance away from the Armagh border, and about six or seven miles from the city of Armagh itself. I believe he was a member of the Armagh Pipers Club.
I believe that the farm that Leo grew up on looks out on the Blackwater river, which I think is the boundary of Tyrone, the other side being Armagh. You can't get much closer than that!
FWIW, the Chris Langan book was published in 2002, just over ten years after his death, not 'in 1992, just one year before his death' as the website says.
New Website about Irish Tune Composers
New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Some of you may be interested in a new website in development which aims to document all the important composers of traditional Irish music.
I've been working on it with a couple of friends recently and we'd welcome any input from others.
If you'd like to contribute please contact us using the contact form on the homepage of the site.
We'd like to make very detailed pages about all the composers so please feel free to send any info and interesting links our way.
We're bound to have missed out on some excellent composers so please feel free to tell us nicely if we have!
The website is here
http://irishtunecomposers.weebly.com/
Thanks
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I had a quick look and it looks fantastic, its great to be able to learn about the people behind those great tunes. But I just wanted to point out the text is displaying a bit strange in places - the bottom half of the occasional line is missing - maybe its the choice of font?
I'm using Safari on a Mac...?
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Rocky Nook
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Thanks for that feedback.
Just tried it on Safari (on Windows) and the font isn't as good, you're right.
When you say the bottom half of the occasional line is missing, do you mean some of the letters are a bit cutoff at the bottom or are you not able to read the lines at all?
I'll have a look at it on a Mac tomorrow to see what it's like.
This is our first time building a website so we weren't aware of these font issues!
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
A very nice resource. Thank you for putting this together. I sent you some feedback via your website. Keep up the good work!
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by browndog
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Got the feedback thanks browndog.
We're a bit confused regarding Paddy Kelly and Father P.J. Kelly (Patrick)
Are they the same person? They're both from East Galway and seem to have been composing around the same time.
We presumed they were the same person so information on those tunes you mentioned are in that article.
We'll get around to adding the other composers you mentioned and if you've any further info on them you'd like to send please do.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I have sent an email about the font - I could send you a screen shot if it would help.
I'm more than happy to help, it looks like a great resource!
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Rocky Nook
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Wow, looks like a great website!
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Mattias Holm
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I'm not of the opinion that James Scott Skinner can be considered as a composer of Irish traditional music. There's no doubt that several - but only a very small percentage - of his compositions are played by traditional Irish musicians, but that does not make him " an Irish tune composer". Your other composers deliberately created their music within, and occasionally outwith, the parameters and nuances of Irish dance music. Skinner, as far as I know, did not, and I see no reason for his inclusion..
Congratulations on the website - I'll look at it more closely when I have time, and will contribute any information I can.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
2 others - Darach de Brun [ who posts here occasionally ], and Joe Boske from Galway.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Kenny
Joe Boske
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1641
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You should probably look at the Chris Langan book 'Move your Fingers'
I don't recall you asking permission using Junior Crehan's photograph, a bit light fingered on the copyright are we?
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I also recognise the hand of the writer of the Paddy Donoghue entry. And it's not your own.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Joe Liddy should be in there as well i think. Gerry Harrington has a few nice tunes put together, John Brosnan and Jackie Daly as well, Terry Moylan composed The Hard Road to Passage' . It'll be a long list.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Josephine Marsh has made plenty of nice ones too.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
John McFadden contributed a bunch of his own tunes to O'Neill's books, Paddy Killoran turned his hand at the odd one as well.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
And thinking of Killoran, Paddy Sweeney composed 'Miss Langford' , probably among others
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
P.J. King wrote rakes of them.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Siobhan Peoples.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Neillidh Mulligan for Barr na Cúile
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Jimmy Ennis for 'The Morning Thrush'
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Paddy Taylor
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Seán Moloney
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Brian Duke, Padraig Rynne - see "Cian" recordings.
Joe McKenna - Maire Breathnach - Des Cafferkey - Peter Browne - Shannon Heaton
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Mick Hanly for Jessica's Polka?
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Not really sure if he really fits into the category of Irish *tune composers*, but John Sheahan has in my opinion composed some truly magic pieces on the violin and tin whistle!
Unfortunately I have never found a complete compilation of all his compositions, but I would love to see one!
Perharps someone here could contact the man himself and ask him to share his music contribution to the rest of the world?
Just my two cents..
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Mattias Holm
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You should maybe at least mention that Maggie Barry is sometimes credited as the real composer of (at least some) of Michael Gorman's tunes, notably the Strayaway Child.
I'd guess they're probably a joint effort although we'll never know for certain.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Cathal McConnell has a few doesn't he? The Sunset, I believe, among them.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Johnny Harling for ' The Dusty Windowsill' and others
Joannie Madden for 'The Cat's Meow'
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Nice site, Dave. Thanks for that.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Good work, handy site.
As well as JS Skinner, Jerry Holland should not be there. If you include composers just because Irish musicians play their tunes you could end up with a bit of a mess.
Some more contemporary composers who've written some very nice tunes -
Hammie Hamilton, Colin Farrell, Mick O' Conner, Brendan Ring, Kevin Crawford, Sean Smyth, Lep McCann, Joe Liddy, John McSherry, Alan Kelly, Kevin Burke, Cillian Vallely, Brian Finnegan, Donal Lunny.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Minerva McGonagall
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Good site.
I'm not too sure how Jerry Holland fits in there either. Like Skinner, some of his music has become part of the Irish repertoire but that's as far as it goes.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Ah, just noticed James Hill too...
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"In order to qualify for inclusion the composer must meet one of these three criteria
(a) The composer has one or more tunes which are now part of the standard repertoire
(b) The composer has one or more tunes which have been played by musicians of note
(c) The composer or someone else has produced a collection of their music in printed form"
Skinner, Hill and Holland would meet this. Perhaps the criteria are a tad broad - perhaps not. If this is adhered to then even Phil Cunningham would qualify. An example being "Farewell to Govan" played by Liam O'Flynn.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I would say these criteria are far, far too open. You're talking about rakes and rakes on non Irish composers. Also, you would be constantly adding people as Irish musicians look for more and more new tunes, which is a natural thing to do for many players.
(a) Standard repertoire is a very localised thing.
(b) Musicians of note is pretty subjective.
(c) Fair enough but what's the Irish connection.
The whole thing would be less likely to get out of hand if you included only Irish composers.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Minerva McGonagall
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The point is surely for it to be a useful resource. "The Rights of Man" has been played long enough and often enough in Ireland and the Irish diaspora that by any measure it's an Irish tune. So what if it was written by an Englishman born in Scotland? - people will want to know about him.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Gerry O'Connor from Tipperary.
"Music For A Found Harmonium" qualifies under a) and certainly b), so Simon Jeffes.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The Paddy O'Brien from Co. Offaly should be included, as well as Co.Tipperary Paddy.
Would it not be more useful as a resource if you actually listed the tunes by each composer ? Best of luck with Scott Skinner and Ed Reavy.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Josie Keegan and John Brady have both written enough tunes which have entered the tradition to qualify for Category A, in my opinion.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
i liked the criteria. i would rather see info included on a broad range of people whose tunes i play, than have it so strict that i can't find someone i'm seeking. people who are very particular can always ignore what they aren't interested in, especially ifthe format is such that you can seek for what you're looking for.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by full measure
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
A very sparky and interesting venture. Good luck! There may be people steeped in the tradition who know all this stuff already, but I'm not one of them, and to be able to access the basics of this and that composer's life and music and indeed see photos all gathered together on a site like this is very welcome.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by nicholas
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
>an Englishman born in Scotland....eh? I don't understand.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Thanks for all that feedback.
The website is in its infancy so there are going to be a lot of discrepancies at first.
So to address some issues.
(a) Regarding non-Irish composers
We plan to include ANY composer who has a tune that is widely played by those who play traditional Irish music. That is why people like Scott Skinner, Jerry Holland and James Hill are there.
In researching the website we discovered that a lot of tunes we knew by ear and presumed were traditional were actually composed by known musicians.
We want to create awareness of this.
(b) To address claims of copyright
There are three people working on this site and we all have different methods of writing, finding and uploading material. We're trying to be as consistent as possible.
Our general method is to write a short piece about each composer, explaining their importance and mentioning their well known tunes.
After that we will paste and link to interesting biogs and articles we find on the net. We have tried to credit all such references, however we must admit we may have missed some crediting at the beginning, so we will be going back to this and giving full credits.
Apologies Prof. Prlwytzkofsky but we didn't reaise you had copyright on the Junior Crehan photo. In fairness we do credit our source for all the Junior Crehan info at the bottom of the article. We have yet to write our own piece on him and so at the moment I can see how it looks like a cynical piece of copying.
If something has been published on the internet for public domain viewing then this we feel it is fair enough to copy and or link to this material. If we had to ask permission to copy every photo and article we'd never get the site done!!!!
If you can claim copyright and would like us to remove the photo then we'll be happy to take it down.
(c) Section A and B
This categorisation we knew would prove controversial, however it's there as a convenience to allow people to first see who have made the biggest contributions to the trad repertoire.
It is likely we will add some people from Section B to A and we're happy to consider Josie Keegan and John Brady as Kenny suggests.
Initially they are only in Section B because we only know of one tune each of theirs which is commonly played. We would be grateful to know what other tunes of theirs are commonly played.
(D) Tune lists and discographies
We eventually hope to list all the known tunes and recordings by each composer, that will take a while though!
We will also link to notations of tunes where available on sites like thesession.org.
We have done this linking for some of Martin Mulhaire's tunes already.
(E) How we do this.
Finally we must explain the following.
Please be patient and tolerant with us!
We are doing this voluntarily for absolutely no monetary gain. Weebly offers the possibility of 'monetising' the site but we don't want to do this.
Many thanks for all the other composer suggestions, we will certainly look into them all and will gradually add them.
We would welcome contributions from others so if you have a particular passion for a composer and would like to write an article or submit relevant material about them to us then please contact us through the contact form on the website.
Thanks
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I think your deeply mistaken in your thinking about copyright. every word written by anytbody, be it on the internet or elsewhere, belongs to the author.
If you copy photographs or text without permission you're in the wrong. It's that simple. It's also just plain old bad manners.
I posted that piece about Paddy O Donoghue, probably as a post here, possibly another sight. You have no business copying it without acknowledgement. Same for the photograph.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
site. Not sight.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
If you are to include Jerry Holland (I don't think he should be there to be honest) you will want to include Otis Thomas for his 'The New Land' which is popular around here, through Jackie Daly's introduction of it.
Pete Jung's 'Far Away' gets played as well.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"an Englishman born in Scotland....eh? I don't understand."
James Hill. Born in Dundee, spent his entire musical career in Tyneside.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Prof. Prlwytzkofsky you have no information as to who you are under your name here so it's impossible for us to know who you are and if your copyright claims are valid.
Again we apologise for using your material, if it is yours, without permission, we would hope in the interests of this voluntary, educational project that you would be happy to have your contributions used.
We will be happy to acknowledge you as the author of any such material if you let us know who you are!!!!
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
We would also be happy to remove such material if you insist on it and can demonstrate your ownership.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
By the way, Prof. Prlwytzkofsky the information on Junior Crehan was found on www.ramblinghouse.org
This website has copied numerous articles from elsewhere and collected them into one big useful resource indeed.
(with lots of ads mind you, so presumably it makes some money)
If you are annoyed at us for referring to material from this website then perhaps you should contact them to have it removed.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"James Hill. Born in Dundee, spent his entire musical career in Tyneside."
Yet there is no concrete evidence that he composed The Rights of Man - or that Peter Milne did. Even though the likelihood is there.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You know, the problem I have with this sort of thing is the blatant cut and paste jobs without permission. I am quite liberal in my approach when asked but I deeply dislike this sort of situation the 'prove it' one. You are the one to apply care BEFORE you use material.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
It's impossible to ask permission when the author is unknown.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You know where you got it. Ask whoever runs the web resource it came from.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The name for the Paddy Donoghue piece is available, the post was made on Chiff and Fipple, here:
http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14087&hilit=Donoghue+Bodyke
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Ok thanks Peter for clarifying that and apologies if we didn't do our homework to get credit for this stuff.
I hope you can appreciate that a lot of work has gone into researching this website.
We will be happy to name you as the author of this material if you don't mind us retrospectively asking your permission.
Again if you want us to remove it please let us know.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
@Tune Composer
Great job - it's nice to see all this information being collated in one place.
Couple of thoughts:
!) Might you perhaps include George McLennan (e.g. Jig of Slurs)
2) It might me nice to have a list of each author's compostions, (as well as discography, publications etc). And perhaps also an alphabetical list of tunes, with the composer's name noted against each one?
Your site - by its very nature - is trying to GIVE credit for authorship. So it's rather sad to see folks getting stuffy regarding copyright issues.
Keep up the good work!
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Paddy Kelly and Father PJ Kelly have now been separated, thanks to the people who helped clear up the confusion!
We could do with more biographical information on both so if you have some please let us know.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Thanks Mix O'Lydian and everyone else who have suggested composers and tune lists.
We will eventually get around to including every composer doing lists, it will take time though so please be patient!
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I have taken the other issue to e-mail, where it should be.
Paddy Canny played some tunes, Caves at Kiltannon, Rooms at Dooagh, he was rumoured to have written. The caves at the back of his house in Kiltannon are a spectacular mysterious place ( before they built executive homes on the land that belonged to Kiltannon house anyway) worthy of a tune.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Thanks Peter, I've removed your material as requested
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
So far for taking things to e-mail.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'I have taken the other issue to e-mail, where it should be'
Where you retrospectively think it should be Peter. If you wanted it to be resolved by email why didn't you contact me first instead of attacking me in a public forum.
I'm doing this all in good faith Peter and am very taken aback by your negativity, I don't understand it.
I'm all for copyright to be enforced to prevent people exploiting others for profit.
There's no such issue here.
I've removed the items as requested.
I will not be communicating with you again.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
How do we know if the information on that web site is correct ?
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
How do we know anything we read is correct?!!! Do you believe the BBC news just because it's printed on their website?
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Some sources, including the BBC, have a track record on which we can judge them. So far in this discussion you have admitted not knowing some of your sources and hown a naivity in relation to attribution of the work of others that suggests inexperience.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
shown
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The BBC and many other media companies often have to admit to getting things wrong.
Here's an example of something they got spectacularly wrong!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiWlvBro9eI
They have huge resources yet still make mistakes like this.
I'm just doing this in my spare time with 2 other people.
Give us a break for God's sake...............
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You don't understand the negativity. Well, how often do you think websites, publishers of books, newspapers, concert venues think it's perfectly fine to use google images to pull a few images for free?
It's a pain in the neck to deal with but as it happens it's MY work so I am fussy about other people who treat it like it's a free for all just because they found it on the internet.
If you bother to ask before you use, you are most likely get permission. If you can't be bothered to make the effort and use my work regardless. You don't and you won't get it retrospectively either.
And for the second time you're responding to a private e-mail on a public forum.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Give yourselves a break. Attribution is not only about manners (and usually the law) it gets you off the hook if the information is wrong but reported in good faith. Also if you read up on it you will find there are ways of quoting people without getting permission every time.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Well OK, there are situations where it might not get you off the hook, which is why you ned to find out about it.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I'd like to make clear I think the idea of the website is a good one and I wish them well. I said this in the first e-mail I sent to them.
I have issues, obviously, with the cut and paste nature of the information supplied. My personal bee in the bonnet about misappropriated photographs aside, I make posts to forums like this and sometimes write what comes into my head. I don't expect, and don't want, to see casual posts presented as articles on other websites. Not with an attribution and certainly not without.
Now that is one issue. An issue that could have been resolved easily enough. Tune composer (who is he anyway?) made a few basic mistakes in handling the issue and that cost him a fair amount of goodwill and willingness to accommodate him from my end.
I think this could be a fine resource, once the people putting it together provide consistent entries, written by themselves and based on their own research.
They may even get photographers to submit piccies, if they ask for them. But not before they abandon the 'we'll use what we find until you prove they're yours' approach.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Phil Murphy for 'the Trip to Cullenstown'
Dee Amstrong for the lovely 'Leipzig Waltz', if maybe beyond the edges of traditional Irish music
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Those poor in resources need friends.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Good job on the site - despite the obvious can of worms it stirs up. I sympathize with Peter, but you have an excellent point concerning discovering identity when many clearly obfuscate for legitimate reasons.
Another Irish composer with many tunes in regular use:
Cormac Breatnach
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Toppish
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I'd be looking at it from a slightly different perspective. I think the site is an interesting resource for those interested in learning about the lives and backgrounds of well known and some less well known trad musicians.
But.... if it's a move towards accrediting tune x,y,z to particular composer A,B,C and this is used in some fashion by the 'music industry' to extract royalty payments etc., I'd say leave well alone.
I'd guess it's gratifying for many of these people to be acknowledged but I'm quite sure that many, particularly the older players, are not interested in monetary gain - happy to hear their tunes played and adapted. And that might be your view as web masters.
But that's not always how the big bad world of commerce works - I'd guess that IMRO and related organisations will love something like this.... ??
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Oh dear, mamman raises its head again
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Nicholas Jelinek
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Wounded hussar,
We can assure you our motives are nothing but genuine.
It is true that there are some well meaning composers like Father Kelly who were not interested in copyrighting their tunes on the grounds that they don't think anyone should own them.
Whilst this is admirable it is also naive because you can be sure that Paddy Moloney copyrighted The Chieftains arrangement of his tune when they recorded it. They would have used the old 'trad. arr.' thing and so they and their publisher will make royalties.
If Father Kelly had copyrighted it he would have made the royalties and he could have given it to worthy causes or something like that.
So you can be sure that any composer who knows about copyright (or their family) has already registered their tunes with IMRO or another organisation. Junior Crehan's family for example are very vigilant about collecting royalties for his music.
To give a pertinent example, Dave Richardson composed the well known tune 'The Calliope House Jig' which was used in Lord of the Dance and sold millions of copies. If he didn't copyright it he would have lost out on a lot of money that would likely have gone into the pockets of Michael Flatley and Ronan Hardiman, who would no doubt have registered it as 'trad. arr'.
I don't think anyone would begrudge Dave Richardson for doing this.
Anyway, royalty lecture aside, our website is purely meant to be for educational/informational non-profit purposes.
An awful lot of tunes go uncredited and surely the composers deserve to be recognised in the same way that their classical and singer-songwriting counterparts are.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Excellent Idea Lads, Lovely site, best of luck and thanks for all your work.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Interesting seeing someone ask for peoples input, get the input, and then watching both the requestor, and the obligor become defensive. I can imagine the analysis that could be made by some university students.
1. history is subjective, it is one person's interpretation of events. Nobody owns the past, only their interpretation of it,Tune composer I think you should grow some thick skin if you expect to take this project as far as you seem to intend to.
2. It's a good idea not to publicly post anything one considers their intellectual property, unless they are prepared for the inherent risk that it will be taken, used, enjoyed, or modified by a stranger, and then one should realize that there is very little recourse for the author, as it is almost impossible to demonstrate real loss (unless of course you are backed by the BMI or ASCAP, or a corporate publisher, and we know they are busy taking you the author to the cleaners for real $, while the person who cut and paste your work is probably making no real financial gains)
Either way interesting project. I know he is listed alphabetically but Vincent Broderick is one of my favorite composers's. The fact that the article starts with rating him as a "fine" composer does make me agree that all articles on your site should be properly cited, so that the reader has a notion of just whose interpretation they are reading, at least out of respect for your readers, if not for the authors.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"An awful lot of tunes go uncredited and surely the composers deserve to be recognised in the same way that their classical and singer-songwriting counterparts are."
Not necessarily. Like so many *services* these days the vast majority of people may welcome this, yet for those (composers) who do not desire such recognition it is disrespectful.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Ben Lennon, for 'Sally Lennon's jig'
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I agree that the motives of Fr.Kelly and his compatriots are/ were admirable - you summed it up well ".. not interested in copyrighting their tunes on the grounds that they don't think anyone should own them."
But I don't agree that they were naive. Far from it - they understood that they had drawn from the wellspring of a folk tradition and that that was where their work belongs.
So again, I think it's great to be able to read up on these people and more power to you for assembling the info. But I wouldn't be too hot on the idea of some sort of definitive listing of tunes attributable to each composer. I just think that's a move away from the heart of the tradition and perhaps towards possible commercial exploitation.
Mind you, a list of tune titles would be fairly meaningless anyway as so many tunes have multiple names and variants.
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"An awful lot of tunes go uncredited and surely the composers deserve to be recognised in the same way that their classical and singer-songwriting counterparts are"
That's the slippery slope........
As many have said here, isn't the best possible recognition, for a composer to hear their tunes played, adapted, renamed and absorbed? Why is credit important?
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The Tune Composer, I haven't seen this degree of copy/paste before, ever. You deserve credit for all your work. ;)
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
TTC, do a search for Derry Craig Wood.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Babs Gordon,
I admit at the moment the website is more like a portal of cut and pasted material. We do say on the home page that the site is in its infancy and we welcome contributions from others!
It would take months to fully research all this material and write original articles about all the composers. We would very much welcome anyone wishing to submit something along these lines.
For now we are writing short little introductions to all the composers and mentioning their well known tunes, after that it's cut and paste and linking to other sites and we make no apologies for that.
Some people actually appreciate having all this information in one place!
It's the information age, the age for sharing, in f
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Information is fine. It's the not taking time which tends to produce inaccuracies.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
But, it looks like you're gearing up for a WIKI type of information site.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Incidentally, some of our cut and pasting is just reposting material we've written ourselves, because between the three of us we have written some of the articles we've cut and pasted from.
The wikipedia article on Paddy Fahey being one example.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by The Tune Composer
about those *links* to other sites; on some you give the address but it's not actually a hyperlink. Something to consider.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Going by the criteria for inclusion, you would have to include the late Simon Jeffes.
Like it or loathe it, one of his compositions is played a lot more than some genuine traditional tunes.
If not, why not?
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Having recently put together a tune book and having had to struggle with the matter of copyright and permissions I can say that I completely agree that having as much information about tune sources as possible in one place is a wonderful thing to aspire to.
That said though, attribution is fairly simple. Even anonymous writings or disguised names can be easily included. We can argue all night about whether materials (like this note) are really worthy of copyright, but we shouldn't argue about whether it is good form to mention the source...or at least whatever information we have about the source. That is one of the first things one learns in any sort of academic discipline.
After all of that though good on you for attempting this collection of information. I hope it goes wonderfully.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by cboody
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
So, what does Paddy Fahey have to say about this most recent enterprise, The Tune Composer?
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
If you're earnest about this information being a reliable source you have my full support. Please keep The Mustard posted.
Cheers!
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Ditto.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
And thank you for pulling the comment showing your indignation I asked you to pull the Paddy O'Donoghue piece. You said you would take it down if I asked and I asked, attribution issues aside, because it was never a biographical article but rather a casual forum post that would not do at all for the purpose you used it for.
The comment was rather petty, given the circumstances and I am glad you saw sense.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"an Englishman born in Scotland....eh? I don't understand." ... "James Hill. Born in Dundee, spent his entire musical career in Tyneside."
Jack, I was born in Scotland. However, I will end up living most of my life in Ireland, playing Irish Music but that doesn't, nor will it ever, make me Irish .... I'll still die a Scot!
My wife was born in Germany but has lived longer in Ireland than Germany ... she's still German.
If Sean Connery has lived longer in Spain than anywhere else, does that make him Spanish ..... perhaps you'd like to ask him?
nationality: 1. The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization.
Interesting question this naturalization!
Michael Coleman actually spent more years playing the Fiddle in America than Ireland, so does that make him American?
If this site was only for Irish musicians, does that mean therefore that he wouldn't actually qualify?
I wonder how the site owners look at this question of nationality?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Ptarmigan
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Hi Dick,
Good on you for being a proud Scotsman!
We are listing anyone who has composed music that has made a significant contribution to the Irish tradition, it makes no difference where someone was born or whether they played Irish music a lot.
So for example Jerry Holland from Cape Breton in Canada gets included because his tune Brenda Stubberts is now widely played in the tradition.
We aren't going to include Michael Coleman unless we find strong evidence that he composed some of the tunes occasionally attributed to him.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Brenda Stubbert is widely played in the Scottish tradition too, of course. So, we can also claim Jerry as a Scottish tune composer.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
To be a little more controversial, can we really say that new tunes such as Brenda Stubbert, Calliope House and so on are now part of the *Irish* tradition or repertoire when they are so common elsewhere too? They are really more *universal* than anything else.
The same applies, to a lesser extent, to older tunes such as "The rights of man", "Harvest Home". These are very popular in Ireland and with Irish musicians but are just as common elsewhere.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
To clarify the above, I realise that these tunes ARE technically part of the Irish repertoire but they are not distinctively or exclusively Irish..if you know what I mean.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Maybe a distinction between tunes that seamlessly fit into the tradition and tunes that are played for whatever other reason, popularity, novelty or just because they're great tunes, should be in order.
Some people have been known to play the Teddy Bear's Picnic on the pipes and it caught on for a while. During the nineties I have heard the tune drift out of the window of Mary Fahy's kitchen on the Ennis Road during late Willie week nights on more than one occasion. I have heard a tape of Séamus Ennis and Willie Clancy playing How much is that doggy *(and again some pipers still seem to have a grá for that one), Finbar McLaughlin did a mean Yellow Submarine and Tommy Kearney had Puppet on a String as one of his party pieces. They're novelty items though and nobody would treat them otherwise. The Found Harmonium, in my mind, sits comfortably in this category. As does Dermot Byrne's rendition of Tico Tico for example(that I have heard recorded by young musicians since).
Equally, Metsakukkia, The New Land, the Northern Lights of Old Aberdeen, The Mist Covered Mountains of Home, Ashokan Farewell, even the Tenessee Waltz get more or less regular outings around here, some because they're lovely tunes, other maybe because everybody knows it and has it handy when the company is in the mood for dancing an old time waltz. Part of the repertoire, yes, but I don't think anybody in their right mind would/should/could mistake them for traditional Irish tunes for that reason.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Part of the repertoire, yes, but I don't think anybody in their right mind would/should/could mistake them for traditional Irish tunes for that reason. "
I bet they said that about Miss MacLeod of Raasay. "Pah, quaint Scottish tune. It'll never take off as an Irish trad tune".
Around the year 2115, everyone will be playing Metsäkukkia.
They'll be calling it "The Humours of Burke" or something like that.
As for the Penguin Cafe Orchestra number being lumped together with Yellow Submarine and Puppet on a String - look how many recordings are listed in the entry on this site (those pop numbers aren't listed):
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/346
It'll be the new Rakish Paddy by the end of the century.
Jeffes didn't describe his music as imaginary folklore for nothing.
Teddy Bears' Picnic didn't make it because it was too scary.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
John McGrath ?
Vincent McGrath ?
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by joyce1
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"As for the Penguin Cafe Orchestra number ...... - look how many recordings are listed in the entry on this site "
What seems even more bizarre to me is the number of alternative titles this tune has considering that it is so recent and that its name and composer are so widely known!!!
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Anyone call Michael Rooney yet?
For Gort na Mona and other pieces
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Up in Donegal, John Mhosaí McGinley
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Andy Conroy composed a few, Conroy nos 1 & 2 and Colonel Glenn among them
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'Piper' Jackson, for his Morning Brush and scores of others, well documented too.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Jim Sutherland, for "The Easy Club" reel.
Charlie McKerron for "Bulgarian Red" and "The Islay Ranters"
Adam Sutherland for "The Road To Errogie".
Angus R. Grant for "Two Fifty To Vigo"
James MacMahon for "The Banshee"
Dr. Angus MacDonald for "Chloe's Passion"
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"We aren't going to include Michael Coleman unless we find strong evidence that he composed some of the tunes occasionally attributed to him"
Isn't that the Achilles Heel of something like this. Concept of intellectual property rights regarding Irish Trad music is a relatively modern phenonemon and one strongly linked to commercialisation. Who knows whether the likes of Michael Coleman or Joe Cooley etc. actually wrote and/or adapted any tunes - it wasn't popular or profitable to document this at the time. So why should it matter now other than as a trifle of passing interest? Is someone like the late Junior Crehan more to be respected because his tunes are credited and I think it's often said based on older melodies. Why are any of the above listed names more creditworthy? What's so important about dittering about with a few notes and coming up with a new arrangement of same? Don't we all do it?
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
And where would you end? I think there maybe some merit in the Section A listing - but there are surely endless people who might qualify for Section B etc.
I'm thinking of someone like Hammy Hamilton, love his flute playing and making and I think he 'wrote' a well know jig, The Kerfunten or Kerfunken or something like that. Well enough played I think. But is Hammy a tune composer on basis of just that? I'm not sure - I suppose you'd have to ask him... and aren't there many more people like that, some well known but many less so.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"And where would you end?" lol ~ the more you know, the more you don't know.
I believe Micho Russell also 'wrote' a well known reel;
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2816
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
How did you come to that conclusion, "Babs" ? I ask because it was me who posted the tune some years ago, and you're the first person since I first heard it played by Josie McDermott to suggest that Micho composed it.
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
My mistake Kenny. It was a faulty conclusion.
We play a tune which we refer to as "Micho Russell's Reel" I had heard it was the only tune he wrote. Now I see that isn't true. I do apologize.
Here is the tune, more or less. It obviously was being played before Micho Russell's time.
"The Hut In The Bog"
Submitted on April 4th 2003 by tufbo
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1573
My other mistake was I meant to write, "The more you know, the more you know you don't know." True enough for myself.
;)
# Posted on October 9th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
.. . mainly I was curious, & still am, about Irish musicians who, like Hammy Hamilton, may have at least one tune attributed to him or her. It seems there are many tunes which have a version attributed to such & such. Perhaps only a few were written by such & such. "Kerfunten" is clearly a jig written by Hammy Hamilton.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far.
We have taken in a lot of the feedback and one of the things we've decided to do is break the composers up into 6 categories
A. The Big Guns
B. A Few Good Tunes
C. One Hit Wonders
D. The Next Generation
E. Undiscovered Collections
F. The Outsiders
These categories allow for easier navigation of the composers and whilst I'm sure some of the divisions will prove controversial to some, we really have to divide it up like this for logical reasons.
The home page describes the divisions.
The Outsiders section is for composers who aren't usually associated with Irish trad but are there because their tunes have been adapted into the tradition.
Hope this makes it all clearer and easier to navigate.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
We've also since added a few composers, plenty more to go in.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Babs, Micho didn't compose that tune, the Russells got that one from Patrick Flanagan, the concertinaplayer who gave them much of their music.
The only claim to composition Micho had consists of a few bars in 'the Hut in the Bog' which he didn''t get when he learned the tune and filled in. He is on record saying that.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Sorry. Kenny dealt with that already I see now.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Wouldn't just an alphabetical index of composers plus maybe an outsider category be a more clear way. Most categories would be fairly subjective anyhow. I mean, 'undiscovered collections' one man's daily bread may be another man's undiscovered treasure. And what about some composers who have collections with dozens of tunes but only one good one in it? One hit wonders? And 'the Nest Generation' will you make an entry for previous generations of composers like Walker Jackson? 'The Previous Generation'?
What I mean to say is that an alphabetical index by name is usually much clearer than first having to second guess where the indexer might have placed a person. There's a lot to be said for keeping things simple.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I think the alphabetical approach does more justice t oa few people there, putting Finbarr and Ritchie Dwyer in the 'a few good tunes' category is in my eyes an insult to their output.
I didn't spot Breandan McGlinchey this time but if you do a bit of research you'll find he his output includes a surprising number of very wellknown tunes. He just lets them out and his name only got attached to the few.
And there are a few in the 'undiscovered' category that will surprise a good few of of us, that they are considered 'undiscovered' I mean.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Also, there are people in the mightily condescendingly named 'one hit wonders' who are responsible for more than the one tune you happen to be aware of. Alphabetical arrangement will avoid you having to move them once you learn more about their output and letting that category disappear will also the composers involved a bit more respect. I personally cringe at seeing Bobby Casey described as a 'one hit wonder'.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
A. The Big Guns
B. A Few Good Tunes
C. One Hit Wonders
D. The Next Generation
E. Undiscovered Collections
F. The Outsiders
!! This must be a wind up - it just has to be, it's so ridiculous. While you're at it, you need a category for the numerous and varied self penned compositions that people submit here.
G. The Mustard Composers
also
H. Hidden Composers
I. Unknown Composers
and
J. Just Poseurs!!
Don't get me wrong - It's an interesting idea to have a collection of background info. on various people who have contributed greatly but after that, IMHO, it just becomes unfocused and meaningless - KISS, 'keep it simple stupid'
It's getting towards the following:
Once people played tunes and were happy.
The the CD became de rigeur - a mark of having made it.
Now it seems you can add, being added to the pantheon of great composers of Irish Traditional Music!! - of course, with credits and perhaps a few royalties on the side.
Bit OTT as an observation but perhaps towards the truth?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I'm would think that Darach de Brun, Carl Hession and Fintan McManus will be delighted - but perhaps surprised - to find themselves included in the "Next Generation" of "younger" composers
.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
hehe I was thinking that too, Darech is well into his fifties and some of his tunes (he has many more than he's given credit for on the site) I have been playing for thirty years or so.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Frankie Gavin... "A one hit wonder"?
I always thought "Hey Jude" was a Lennon and McCartney tune too.
;-P
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Oops, I meant
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Is it really that hard to do the decent thing and shoot an e-mail to let me know you intend to use something? I really don't ask for much more.
The music transcription used for the Tommy Coen entry is used without permission. You know the score.
Goodwill rating down-scaled again.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I think you'll find that Niel Gow didn't compose Miss McLeod's reel or even Mrs McLeod as its more correctly called.
http://irishtunecomposers.weebly.com/niel-gow.html
Rather he "collected" or stole it although some sources have stated that he first heard it played by a Mr McLeod of Rassay
http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/scotlandssongs/secondary/genericcontent_tcm4554493.asp
(I believe Jack C knows its full history)
Also, "Farewell to WhiskEy"?
A Scottish tune, so it's WhisKY.
As Llig would say, as in "Diddley"(irish), "Diddly"(Scottish)
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Can the phrase "one hit wonder" be used in a way that *doesn't* sound pejorative?
Agree with all above who suggested an alphabetic arrangement is best and avoids totally made up and silly taxonomies.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"an alphabetic arrangement is best"
Agreed. Surely, the relevance(however tenuous) can be explained within the main body of the information relaring to the particular composer? Then the reader can decide for his or herself whether to investigate further.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Your classification system is actually pretty awkward. If I was going to that website looking for a tune composer or a tune and saw it arranged in that manner, my first thought would be "what the f*ck does that mean!" It's too subjective and doesn't mean anything to people who aren't in your head, who don't know why you categorized people the way you did.
For example, how in earth are James Kelly, Chris Langan, and Josephine Keegan "undiscovered collections?" Undiscovered by whom? You? Obviously every website in the world will show, to some degree, the predilictions and biases of its creator, but you should try to minimize this by categorizing your data in as objective a manner as possible.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Who'd look for Seán O'Riada under 'one hit wonders' ?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Outsiders.....
http://irishtunecomposers.weebly.com/zequinha-de-abreu.html
We have The Muppets.... you can't get anything more "outside" than that.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Any tune played by a traditional musician enters the tradition now? Will they put up Ben Bernie and Maceo Pinkard now because Gavin and Cooney played 'Sweet Georgia Brown' with Grapelli?
Utter madness.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I also have doubts about cutting and pasting biographies from Wikipedia (and other sites). I appreciate that it takes a lot more time and research to write bios yourself and you are doing this in your spare time, but when I read a cut-n-paste job from Wikipedia, I can't help but think, "Really?"
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
While it is laudable to have the goal of having all this data about tune composers aggregated on one website, I think you need to have a better, and more professional, website, compiling and organising information, than what someone could find for themselves on Google or even on the tune section of the Mustard Board.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
But Emily, it's the information age, that's what's sharing is all about
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
One good reason to never use Wikipedia as a source is that Andrew Kuntz has taken to spamming entries from The Fiddler's Companion into it (with pseudo-third-person testimonials to himself as a "musicologist"). So we now have two levels of unchecked BS.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
We're losing faith in the world with some of these angry responses.
For the last time.
We're doing this in our own time, for nothing but the wish to spread information about these composers.
We're bound to make mistakes in doing this as we don't have a huge resource of researchers, that is in effect why we decided to post the prototype website here.
We very much welcome people telling us (in a nice way) where we've got things wrong, so the information about Niel Gow from John J is very helpful for example.
We realised from previous posts on this discussion that there are so many composers that without some kind of sub-categorisation it would be incredibly messy. We may revise the categorisation titles in a while.
We ARE going to have an alphabetical index also.
Composers can easily be moved to another category once we find out more about them.
Silver Spear, the Kelly, Langan and Keegan collections are placed in 'undiscovered' because as far as we can tell only a small amount of their tunes, if any, are widely played.
We're happy to be proved wrong on this, so if you can list a bunch of well known commonly played tunes by each we're happy to move them to another category.
The more we learn about the composers we're less familiar with then the more likely it is we might move them to another category. We have already moved Bobby Casey out of 'one hit wonders'.
Finally, to the aggressive, cynical posters, we don't understand where your anger comes from. If you'd like to contribute polite, constructive advice we'd welcome it.
Otherwise, please stop attaching us for doing something well meaning!!!
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
It's a frustrating life, Peter, actually having standards of research and writing!
@Tune Composer,
I agree with Jack -- blind trust in Wikipedia is a bad thing!
Another problem with the copy-n-paste method is that it shows how little thought you seem to be putting into what you paste and why, and you really don't want it to show that. For example, your entry for Paddy Keenan was, as you say, cut and pasted from the biography on his website. It is very obvious to me that the bio was originally written and posted in 1997 to promote his then-new album, Na Keen Affair. I found it a bit jarring to be reading a biography on your website discussing the mid-90s as if they were yesterday.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The trouble with seeking advice on a forum such as this and indeed on the WWW in general is that everyone wants to have a say. However, I wish the project well.
I would concur with those who suggest that things are kept as simple as possible though.
On a lighter note, I can't resist commenting on Jack's last post re Wikipedia and the spamming from The Fiddlers Companion.
There's just no end to the mischief that these "Kuntz" can get up to...
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
I think you are mistaken about aggression. I asked you for a bit of care and the common decency of asking for permission to use material before you put it on your website.
You used material that 'belongs' to me on three separate occasions without any reference to where it was sourced. I have pointed out to you 'all it takes is to ask, I don't ask for more'.
There's rather a disconnect between your championing the rights of acknowledgement of the composers and the way you treat your own source. Or was I just the unlucky one who went unacknowledged on three items?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
sources
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Silver Spear, if you would like to refer us to a more recent bio or even write something yourself about Paddy then we would be happy to post that instead.
In an ideal world we'd have loads of funding and time, could have a really fancily designed website and could hire people to write original articles about all these composers.
Until such time as we do I'm afraid you're all gonna have to put up with official biogs from out of date websites and wikipedia links!
This is a prototype website, like any prototype it needs constructive critical evaluation, testing and tweaking.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
People are offering you constructive advice about how to make your site into a better and more useful resource.
The problem (or one of them) with categories like "undiscovered collections" is that there is simply no way around HUGE geographical and epistemic biases. For instance, Chris Langan's tunes are widely known in Eastern Canada, but not Scotland. Gordon Duncan, a very well known and prolific Scottish composer, penned tunes which are frequently played by Irish trad players in Scotland but not, as far as I can tell, by Irish trad players in the US or Ireland. Simon Bradley, a fiddle player originally from Manchester but who spent many years in Edinburgh, has written several tunes which are played frequently in Scotland but not elsewhere. Is he "undiscovered?"
I know a few people who have composed at least one tune which has become extremely popular, but to be honest, I would not like them to be classified as "one hit wonders" so I'm not happy saying who they are.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Why not leave the bio section blank, or have a sentence asking users to submit a short biography?
The rock climbing community of the UK has kind of an aggregate site, and one of the sections of it has information on and locations of crags and mountains. The name and location of pretty much every climbable crag in Britain is on the site, but it relies on users to put up information about the routes on the crag. The site owners/moderators don't search through Google to fill in blanks from people's blogs or whatever. If no one has put up route descriptions on the site, they're just not there, and if you're going to such a crag, you need to be all retro and use an actual guidebook.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Sorry guys, I like the idea and I wish you well but to be honest you look way out of your depth.
You have no decent classification, no single form for your entries, your knowledge is scattered and basically second hand, it is unclear what material, if anything, you have contributed yourselves.
With a bit of care, this could be a great resource but you need to go back to the drawing board and do the legwork, set yourself a bit of a standard and if need be contact people who can help you. I think you'll find there are more people willing to help you than you realise, if you approach them in the right way. You'll need a vision and the ability to look at your work with a critical eye. Do not just rake anything you find together, it will only create a mess. Obviously.
The way I see it you are spending the goodwill you started out with rapidly and that's a shame.
Good luck.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Well to be fair, the authors behind the site can be as subjective as they like and they can arrange categories and classifications to suit their own sensibilities. There's no law against that. But if they want their efforts to be useful and taken seriously, perhaps it calls for a different approach?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
What he said.
Unfortunately, any project dealing with compiling and organising HUGE amounts of data whilst remaining functional and user friendly, will entail a lot of time and research. Otherwise you end up with, as Peter said, a mess. I hate to be discouraging, but honestly, "raking together" anything and everything you found and pigeon-holing it into a ramshackle and unclear classification system isn't going to provide the resource I think you guys want to provide.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Initially it can be useful to limit the amount of data by formatting your entries to a basic set of biographical information and an index of the tunes associated with the composer (now that last bit can be a bit of a job but it's essential to list the tunes and in too many cases those listings are non existent or incomplete).
Ofcourse you need to cross reference tunes and their composers so that you can come to the site to see if a tune has a known composer.
So start setting up a sensible framework to cover those bits and the just start working away at it, don't try do it all at once, just take one composer at the time and do a thorough job on the entry so your user can rely on the information you supply.
Meanwhile you can have skeleton entries, with just the name of the composer and any tunes with known associations to the person.
At the later stage you can add a bibliography and discography, with a focus on the tunes so you have to distinguish between recorded output of the composer and the recordings of the compositions (which can be by anybody).
People will realise it's a work in progress so you'll be forgiven for any omissions in advance. You'll also avoid the impression of your site being a botch job.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"The rock climbing community of the UK has kind of an aggregate site"
That would be the section for climbing walls, I guess. For real mountains it would be a conglomerate. Or just a pile of schist.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Jack for the bad pun win!
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
" only a small amount of their tunes, if any, are widely played"
With reference to Josie Keegan, I respectfully submit the following :
Recordings of Josie Keegan compositions - according to “links” here at the “Recordings” section of “thesession.org” - which I grant you will not be perfect.
1 - “The Gates Of Mullagh” - on 6 recordings [ including her own ] - certainly recorded by Colin Nea, and Brid Harper & Dermot Byrne. 29 musicinas here have included it in their "virtual" tune book.
2 - “The Cap And Bell” - on 20 recordings [ including her own ]. Very probably increased by the inclusion of "Out On The Road" as an alternative title. I don't have time to check out all the recordings. In 28 tune books.
3 - “The Aughacashel” - on 60 recordings - not! It’s been given the title “Sean Ryan’s”, and that’s skewed the total, but at a guess, at least a quarter of those recordings are of this reel, which we had long debate about several years ago. Certainly recorded by "Danu" and Kevin Crawford and Marcus Hernon. It's in 41 tune books.
4 - “The Curlew” - 56 recordings, but skewed slightly by Scottish recordings of a jig by the same name, and also the mistaken alternative title of “The Road To Cashel”. Even so, I’d reckon at least a quarter would be Josie’s tune. Probably made famous by "Altan", also recorded by John Whelan and Eileen Ivers, and Niall Keegan. It's in 266 tune books.
5 - “Ronnie Cooper” - on 17 recordings [ including 2 of her own ]. In 39 tune books.
She has many more, but in my opinion, these would be her best-known compositions.
I haven't seen any "angry" responses here - critical, yes, and you have to accept that, as you started the discussion.
I'm willing to help you with any knowledge I possess, and I think many people here are like-minded, but I will continue to point out any factual inaccuracies I come across. Any opinions I express, you can take or leave. I wish you the best of luck in your venture, but fear that with such wide criteria, you have underestimated the size of the task you have taken on.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
A bit of a side line here: I came across a site or publication (can't remember where) recently concerning Larry Redican, included in the tunes was a version of The Legacy that left me wondering if that was one of his. Anyone have any ideas?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You can make your categories alphabetical, but in groups of letters, so you don't have 26 tabs on your website, which is a bit awkward. You can divide the alphabet so you have tabs for "A-E," "F-K," "L-Q," and so on, or in whatever chunks appropriate. Under each composers name, you can have a "tunes" section, a "biography" section, and a recordings/discography section. Like what Peter suggested above. That way you can easily fit in the information you have and leave the rest blank until such a date as it can be added. Thus, if the only tune you know of written by John Carty is Seanamhac Tube Station, it would be in a list under his name. If you later discover another tune he wrote, it would be very straightforward to add it to the list. In the current format, this information is contained in a descriptive paragraph and I think that makes it more work to change.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Just sailed into a few Tommy Whelan tunes, Whelan's Old Sow. Humours of Loughrea and there's the eponymous one as well. I am not full 100% on his status as the composer of those but I have on occasion seen them attributed to him. Probably worth putting on the to-do list.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Thanks for all those who contributed constructive advice.
We have now added a full alphabetical list as has been suggested.
You'll notice on this list we've also added pretty much all of the composers suggested here, but we haven't got pages about them yet.
If you feel like writing something about one of those composers we'll gratefully receive that information.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Ah the stuff the brain keeps throwing out: Pat the Budgie by Graham Townsend isn't it?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Good start. Now delete those categories.
At the end of the day, it's up to you how you want the website to be used. If you want it to be THE online source people use to find out who composed a tune, it has to be suitably slick and professional to encourage people to take it seriously. If it's too amateurish and/or awkward to use, people just won't use it.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Peter Browne the piper of the box player?
That said, Peter Browne the piper did a recording with Philip King, I remember having a a little 45 rpm that had two tunes, one of them The Wardrobe that one of them had written, their CD has more composed music I believe but I am not sure who did the writing.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I was thinking of this, Prof. -
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/874
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Of course you need to cross reference tunes and their composers so that you can come to the site to see if a tune has a known composer. "
This bit seems to be lacking on many databases. It's no simple task though.
Thanks for setting me straight on Micho Russell. Always happy to learn what I can about the Russell's.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Right, I just saw the name on the website and the brain went on a string of associations. I heard Sharon S. play that one on the whistle so I I sort of assume that's not the Peter Brown I was thinking of, instrumentalists do initially keep to their own circle I suppose .
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
x posting there.
There's a lot of myth about the Russells, as things go I suppose.
I was just thinking of the time Mickeleen Conlon went to Dublin to play on The Pure Drop. A good few North and West Clare musicians who knew him were sh*tting themselves when he was telling Noel Hill about the man who gave him the tunes he was about to play. spinning yarns. it can be so tempting don't you think
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You may want to add Wallop the Spot and Wallop the Potlid to John McFadden's entry. There is more that may come to me yet.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I see Frank McCollum didn't get his due for The Home Ruler and the Hangman's Noose and Katie Marie.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Paddy 'Ban' O'Broin, I can hear the tune in my head but the name won't come. Kenny?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I am on a roll while cooking the dinner: Dermot Lernihan for the Corofin Departure and other tunes.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Yo, Prof..................
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/314
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
There have been a few comments about the copyright issue.
Here are our revised thoughts on the issue.
Firstly, we have a disclaimer on the website home page which says the following
'In order to build this site we have searched for relevant information about these composers. We aim to credit use of any material we didn't produce ourselves.
If you are the author or copyright holder of any such material and would like credit or would like the information removed then please contact us through the claim form below.
If you are the composer or you represent the composer please contact us regarding any information you would like changed, removed, clarified or added.'
We think that is a fair enough way to deal with anyone who has issues with us using their stuff. There are countless websites and blogs nowadays which post copyright material, some of which I'm sure many of you use. Youtube being a pertinent example.
It s simply not feasible for us to find out who every copyright owner is and then to contact them. It is pretty much standard practice regarding internet copyright to put up a disclaimer and then take down anything that the copyright owner doesn't want there.
We have already taken down several things that one individual claims copyright over (even one he has no grounds for copyrighting!)
Some more thoughts,
1) We initially thought folks might appreciate having useful information about these composers all posted in one place.
We now see this rankles with some people concerned about copyright.
Over the next while we will remove anything we did not write ourselves and instead just leave links to where we found it.
2) Regarding photos, it would look pretty bad if we didn't have photos of each composer, we don't have the resources to find out who took each photo and then ask permission to use them.
We would hope most photographers will understand this is not a commercial venture and so they will be ok with this.
Indeed regarding photographers, they regularly take and publish photos of people without asking permission, so it is a bit rich of them to be so protective of copyirght in this regard.
3) Someone suggested to us they own the copyright to a transcription they made of one of these composers tunes! The question must be asked of them is if they had permission from the composer's estate to make this transcription! You cannot copyright an 'arrangement' or 'transcription' of a piece that is still in copyright!
So the copyright issue is tricky. We do know that academic standards relating to copyright say it is ok to quote material so long as it is properly referenced.
We will take this approach once we have time to properly do it.
4) Official biographies are freely distributed to the press for the purpose of publc domain publicity. I'm sure none of the composers who have put their official biographies out there will complain about them being reproduced here! If any of them does we will remove it.
5) Someone emailed us suggesting that Eugene Chadbourne wrote the biography of Paddy Fahey we have pasted from Wikipedia.
We can assure you in all confidence that he did not and that page and several other pages on wikipedia were created and written by one of us.
Incidentally, this short bio has been copied and pasted onto numerous websites but it doesn't bother us in the slightest because we are delighted to spread the word about him and every other trad composer.
6) Finally THIS IS A PROTOTYPE WEBSITE!!!! So please don't expect it at this early stage to be definitive or completely professional looking.
We're not professional web designers our journalists, we are not funded by any organisation, we just like Irish tune composers and want to spread the word about them.....
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Jacky Daly.....
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/313
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Kenny
Jacky Daly 2.....
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2782
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Kenny
Connie O'Connell...
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/350
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'Indeed regarding photographers, they regularly take and publish photos of people without asking permission, so it is a bit rich of them to be so protective of copyirght in this regard.'
Oh, dear!
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I agree tune composer , I think it outrageous that a photographer is able to take an individuals photo without express permission. Let alone then going and publishing it on the internet.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Are you saying that's not true MacCruiskeen.
I've had my photo taken and published without any permission asked. Surely I have copyright over my own image
It would be a bit pedantic to pursue anyone who ever photographed me without permission though, just as it's a bit pedantic to pursue someone creating what is basically a hobby website with no commercial end.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The interesting thing is you put up your copyright disclaimer, offer to take material down when you're caught out and then go on berating and generally p*ssing off the people who take you up on your offer.
As I said, you're about to use up the last bits of goodwill left if you continue to go on the defensive in this manner.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Yep, I'm saying it's true, TTC, and just pointing out that you have no rights to any of the photographs displayed upon your site unless you or one of your collaborators has taken them.
Nope, you can't copyright your own image.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Interesting point there TC, ownership of image. Generally anyone can take a picture in public as long as they are not using it for commercial gain. Furthermore, by publishing that picture on the net without a legal disclaimer also puts the original photographer at risk because anyone can then take that picture and use it for commercial gain.
Different countries have different laws, your mileage may vary.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'I think it outrageous that a photographer is able to take an individuals photo without express permission.'
Show us your holiday snaps, Will!
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'Generally anyone can take a picture in public as long as they are not using it for commercial gain.'
Sorry, but this is balderdash.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I have also repeatedly told you 'all you have to do is ask' , which meant I left the door open for you to ask for help or photographs. I was up to a point giving you the benefit of the doubt. Instead, you go on the defensive and blame me for your woes. It's then the door will shut, realise that, and it's firmly closed for most things at this point.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'Nope, you can't copyright your own image.'
Tell that to David Beckham!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=af29NJQ2UV90
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Prof,
I have no desire to ask you because you were so negative and cynical from your first post.
I don't want to use any of your stuff thanks very much. If anything else of yours is up there please tell me, show me proof it's yours and I'll gladly take it down.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You're happy enough to take the names I suggest though aren't you? You also know this whole thing is more telling about your attitude than it is about mine?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
TTC,
You're confusing a photographic image with the means by which an individual chooses to market themself.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Prof. on the Paddy Ban O'Broin tune, were you thinking of Poor But Happy at 53? Cracking tune.
Tune Composer, naivete and nonchalance about copyright laws is no defense in court. You can steal and use other people's work only so far as you don't get caught and sued over it. That includes copyrighted tunes, photographs, and text. It doesn't matter whether your site is a hobby. Without permission, you're breaking laws left and right.
Also, the standard practice among professional photographers is, when capturing any image of a person where that person may be identifiable, you get that person's permission, in writing, or you don't use the image commercially. I've had many photos in print through a US publishing house that held to that standard, so I carried a pocket notebook and got written permission from anyone who appeared in the photos I published.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
It was Kenny identified it above. It was in my head but the name was lost.
Thanks Kenny by the way, good call, thanks Will too.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
http://photorights.org/faq/is-it-legal-to-take-photos-of-people-without-asking
This is the European take (not much different most other places).
Asking permission is down to courtesy.
Take note especially:
"There is no copyright in the human face or form, and copying would anyway mean cloning them, not creating an image. An image of a person is copyright of the photographer."
Kids are a different matter, with differing laws, but copyright doesn't enter into it.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
This is where the cult of photo-paranoia leads:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15236758
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Misdunderstanding of the law, Jack. This is where publicity over such incidents leads (update):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15250846
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Is it legal to take photos of people without asking?"
Never mind the legality, what about good manners?
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Mr White said that one officer claimed that under the Prevention of Terrorism Act he was within in his rights to confiscate the mobile phone on which the photos were taken."
If that's what plod said, he should be given a bowlarking. Under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, only the Home Secretary or a court can invoke a control order restricting the use of phones, etc. Plod can't make arbitrary decisions. The infamous Section 44 of the Terrorism Act has been virtually repealed by The Terrorism Act 2000 (Remedial) Order 2011
(following an ECHR ruling in favour of of Gillan and Quinton). A senior police officer now has to give authorisation - and only if that officer has reasonable suspicion that an act of terrorism will take place (and that whatever measures taken are necessary to prevent such an act).
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"cult of photo-paranoia"
It's not paranoia as far as I'm concerned but some of us get a bit p*ssed off with the cult of obsessive photography which is all too common these days.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Ok, pished off then...... See if I get away with that instead.
# Posted on October 10th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Never mind the legality, what about good manners?"
Too right. It is awfully bad mannered to record somebody raiding a shop without asking if they mind.
Where do you draw the line? If somebody performs on stage, in front of a public audience, they should expect the odd photo to be taken. If the person is in the street, minding his or her own business, then courtesy should prevail.
This seems like a reasonable approach:
http://www.digital-photography-school.com/asking-permission-to-photography-people
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
What rankles me about Tune Composer's use of material on his site is that his approach is "it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission." That's a slacker's attitude to ethics.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I'm just posting this comment here
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
so that this discussion can hit 200 posts!
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
and yes Will I'm a slacker and proud of it...........
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Will, did you ask John Dwyer's permission to record his composition Finbarr Dwyer's Favourite and put it on the internet for anyone to freely download?
http://www.box.net/shared/pgcbfpr79h
Practice what you preach my friend........
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You do play it very nicely mind you and I'm sure John would enjoy hearing you play it.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I see great improvement at the web site (as a result of the discussions here?). I'd suggest these things
1) State the source of the photos.
2) Be aware that there is a difference between using the publicity bio/photo materials from someone's website (and BTW you can ask permission for that quite easily), and lifting materials/photos from the work of others.
3) You really need to get permission for materials like photos and bio to avoid difficulties down the road. Probably you can get it almost every time, but legal and moral issues still say you should ask.
4) Add me to those who suggest that you place the titles of known tuns by composers into a simple list. Lots easier to edit, lots easier to use, and lots more quickly useful.
5) I don't think everything is just right, but I certainly see efforts to continue to improve it and to clean up the issues with source materials. That is all to the good. Bravo to you for those efforts and good luck on continuing to improve things.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by cboody
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You assume too much. No surprise--your whole approach is presumptuous.
I did actually seek permission before including the tune in a teaching booklet I handed out at a fiddle camp some years ago. What I got in response was not directly from John and inconclusive: "The tune isn't copyrighted, John would love knowing it's played."
You've posted stuff on your site without even having the courtesy to ask. Nothing to be proud of.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Add a video of me playing each tune on whistle so everyone's head will explode and we can all get some relief from this thread.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Michael Eskin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Leslie Craig was mentioned by Jim on another thread last night, for the Road to Ballymac.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Hey, Prof - I think TTC has said quite clearly he doesn't want to use your material!!! So why keep pushing suggestions? You two 'guys' should really get together as you clearly have a common obsession!!
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Hehe, he hasn't rejected any suggestions I made yet. But then, he copies anything people suggest, including the typos.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Maybe the way around many of the issues which have emerged here is that those who wish to embark on projects of this kind should, perhaps, refrain from posting their website "live" until it is fully complete, tweaked, and all the appropriate research has been verified with the necessary permissions obtained?
Of course, further material can still be added later but the "ground rules" will have been established.
I'm sure that there are enough knowledgeable people here and elsewhere who would be happy to communicate privately re such matters and view the "work in progress" offline.
Ideally, the same criteria should apply to all such projects although it never usually does. After all, you don't publish a book until it's complete, checked, and "proof read". So, why should these types of websites be any different?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
True John, but book publishing is normally undertaken by professionals and even if you do an amateur job, because of the production costs, one is inclined to be a lot more careful to get it right.
Internet publishing for better or worse suits a 'suck it & see' type approach. Yes, you can expect higher standards but the norm is lower. TTC and friends apparently are just putting the site up as a hobby interest, so you can see how this approach has it's appeal.
I'm still unconvinced about the need to credit 'every' trad musician who puts up a 'new' tune, as the're hardly composers except in a strict technical sense. I can see some point in recording notes about those who are prolific.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I think care needs to be taken when using, without permission, only part of biographical material even if that was provided on a composer's website. Only part may be needed (you may have the rest from somewhere else) but if the bio was crafted to give an overal picture then using part of it may accidentaly portray the person in a way they don't like. You have broken their copyright so they have a legitimate reason to complain - even if your portrayal was correct. Many copyright holders say words to the effect of "you may use this but only in its entireity without change".
I can also see a situation where using one photograph out of several originally displayed together might be unfair on the subject(s), particularly if they cover a range of facial expressions.
Why rub people up the wrong way ?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
There is no copyright on assertions, only on the words used to express them. If you rewrite a biography in your own words you're in the clear, even if it states exactly the same facts as those in your source.
"I'm still unconvinced about the need to credit 'every' trad musician who puts up a 'new' tune, as the're hardly composers except in a strict technical sense."
The less prolific are precisely the ones who most need to have their compositions credited properly. Otherwise the famous get to steal the credit for everything.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You're not quite right, Dave. So long as you reference your sources, you can quote whatever you find online, just as you can quote from a properly references book.
Tune Composer, if he is copy-pasting biographies, should at least include the full URL of where he found it. I also recommend that he at the very least take the time to read over and edit the information he pastes. You don't need to include reviews from a concert in 1998. Seriously. That just screams laziness to me. Not only can you not be bothered writing your own stuff, you can't even be bothered reading and thinking about what you quote from elsewhere.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
And Josie McDermott, who is currently listed as writing "a few good tunes," has written quite a lot of good tunes.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"can quote whatever you find online, just as you can quote from a properly references book"
You can't quote whatever you like in the book world. It is still virtually impossible to quote a T.S. Eliot poem in a novel, and it was even harder in his lifetime.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Fair enough Spear. I guess its a matter of courtesy rather than copyright. I was backing off slightly from what I said somewhere way above along the lines of "you can quote if you know the rules" because of the lazyness exhibited.
There is a dange that talking part of a source even with proper referencing might upset someone that it would be good to have on their side. For example a journalist may have written an article based on an interview that relied on the subject trusting the interviewer to use information fairly.
Photographers often do rely on trust betwen themselves and their subjects, even in the case of travel photos as discussed in the page linked by Weejie. They should be able to rely on their own copyright to enable them to keep any implied or explicit promises they make to their subjects. If not they may end up getting treated like paperazzi.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I've never tried quoting a T.S. Eliot poem in a novel (or written a novel), but I quoted one in a paper I wrote for a college English class once and never heard about it from his estate!
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Tune Composer would do well to have a professional, well organized site which showed the amount of research and legwork he put into it. If he had created such a site, I don't think he would have trouble finding volunteers to write biographies and contribute tunes and composers. As it stands, I certainly would not lend my name, or even session.org pseudonym, to it.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Liam King for 'King's Fancy' as played by Seán Maguire and the Four Star Quartet
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
hmm - I have to say, Dave and I may have had a few "disagreements" over the years, but I am really impressed by this site. Yes, there may be a few loose ends to tie up but in essence the idea is superb. The details can be patched up over time. I really think this is a great project, and thanks "tune composer".
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"It is still virtually impossible to quote a T.S. Eliot poem in a novel, and it was even harder in his lifetime."
If you live in the US, and the works were published before 1923, it is quite possible.
http://world.std.com/~raparker/exploring/tseliot/works/poems/eliot-harvard-poems.html
"United States copyright law accords public domain status to works published prior to 1923. This allows the republishing of Eliot's poems first printed in The Smith Academy Record and The Harvard Advocate. The poem recited at Smith Academy's 1905 commencement was not published until Poems Written in Early Youth and its copyright status is left for others to decide. 'The Death of Saint Narcissus' was first published in Poems Written in Early Youth and so is likely to still enjoy copyright protection. Thus, for copyright reasons only The Harvard Advocate poems have been published here. "
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Excellent idea, Tune Composer. I will email you with my suggestions as I don't wish to be part of the discussion above!
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by The Archivist
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"The less prolific are precisely the ones who most need to have their compositions credited properly. Otherwise the famous get to steal the credit for everything."
I don't wish to labour the point, but why Jack? Can you explain to me the importance of every Sean or Sinead Citizen getting 'proper credit' for tunes they came up with ... in the context of a folk music such as Irish Traditional Music?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'Can you explain to me the importance of every Sean or Sinead Citizen getting 'proper credit' for tunes they came up with ... in the context of a folk music such as Irish Traditional Music?'
You're having a laugh hussar, there's a thing called copyright we've been debating about here. Some of you seem very precious about copyright of the written word or photographs but when it comes to the compositions you actually play and get some enjoyment out of you don't seem to give a damn 'because it's folk music'.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
@ Will Harmon
You said
'I did actually seek permission before including the tune in a teaching booklet I handed out at a fiddle camp some years ago. What I got in response was not directly from John and inconclusive: "The tune isn't copyrighted, John would love knowing it's played."
So you didn't actually ask John's permission to record it and put it online. Thanks for clearing that up.
John would indeed love to know it's being played and being played as nicely as you play it, but I'm sure he'd also appreciate being credited as the composer and being asked about it. You don't credit him at all on the page
But then of course you'd have to track him down and that's hard work isn't it.........same dilemma we have with this stuff.
To make things worse you are using the clip for your own personal gain i.e. for the students who pay you to teach them.
Incidentally, to say it isn't copyrighted is nonsense. Any piece of music of which the composer is known and either alive or deceased for 70 years or less is copyrighted.
It really irks me to see people criticising us for being 'lazy' when they're no different themselves..........
Anyway, we've had enough of this divisive debate.
We thank you all for your suggestions and we guarantee you in a few months this website will be much, much better and everything will be above board and copyright cleared.
To give an example of where it's headed, check out the page for Davy Rogers, a prolific composer of tunes from Galway.
He nicely sent us his bio, picture and list of tunes. They're all there listed on the site now.
http://irishtunecomposers.weebly.com/davy-rogers.html
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by The Tune Composer
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Either Mary or Josie Nugent (possibly both) had some own tunes recorded I believe
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Prof, are trying to assist TTC here or just wind him up?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Johnny Jay
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"You're having a laugh hussar, there's a thing called copyright we've been debating about here."
No, I ain't laughing - just pondering on the clash of culture. And if you can't see that clash, that essential dislocation between a folk music rooted in community on the one side and the concepts of copyright and credits associated with individualism and commercialism on the other - well, I don't know.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Copyright isn't the black and white some people seem to think it is. Answer the following: Would you think it a violation of copyright, immoral, or unethical to play a tune with a known composer and post the video on YouTube without acknowledging the composer? Keeping in mind that many players who have picked up tunes from friends, sessions, recordings, etc. might not necessarily know who wrote the tune in question.
Would you think it a violation of copyright, immoral, or unethical to copy a photograph from someone's website and put it on your own?
Are these things equivalent, or not?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Acknowledging the composer is the minimum (but I guess that's also something which I like from french copyright law).
If tunes are to be played in a session and allowed to undergo the folk process, then they must be released with the appropriate copyright notices. Otherwise, we can't legally play them (regardless or not of whether we make money). Obviously, morally we can play them - but is the line drawn at "I didn't make any money so it's ok" vs "playing this tune earned me thousands of dollars so the composer should get their cut"?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Tirno
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
How on earth are tunes "released" to be played at a session. Recorded on an album, sure, but a session? Do you seriously think we can't play tunes with known composers at a session "without appropriate copyright notices?"
The point I was trying to obliquely get at with my above post was that a balance needs to be struck between people's right to get something, money, ackowledgement, etc. from their artistic endeavours and the communitarian nature of the "folk process" which has little regard for, as Hussar put it, individualism and commercialism.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
yes equivalent, not only are you using someone's work [composition] but putting it on the internet. ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law.
As regards photos, well photos of what? does the website state copy write? Its in the public domain, just as a walker in the street is in public. Was a model release signed by the model? Whos making money? who is gaining publicity? who gains and who suffers? Which country and laws?
Morals are subjective, so a discussion of morality is fraught.
For example IMO its wrong to take a photo of anyone without express permission. legal or not its wrong. putting it up on a website just compounds the error.
If you or I place something in the public domain, without expressly indicating its not for copying or reproduction without permission then fair enough but without that? why should it be?
Look at the various laws around the world and enforcement of copywrite issues., look at you tube FFS , its full , full, of copy-write stuff. You got a problem with that? take it up with the host and Im sure they will take it down. Just as in TTC site.
The world moves a lot faster than out moded and out dated Laws . Catch up or get run over.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
@TSS of course you cant play in public tunes from known composers without them getting a cut of any profit ! ye gods thats what copy write is all about. Whether the composer has copyrighted it or not , it IS copyrighted.
Are profits made? yes the bar gets a cut and they should be indemnified by paying to the MU. I think.
Dont point the finger at others without first making sure your hands are clean.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Otherwise, we can't legally play them "
It's not illegal to play "them" in the UK. The onus is on the proprietor of the premises to obtain a licence for performance of music. At some time near to the renewal date for the licence, the licensee is sent a form to complete, and details of the music played should be given. This doesn't make it "illegal" for the musicians themselves to play composed tunes.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Are you saying then that before you go into a session, you carefully work out a set list that includes no copyrighted tunes?
"Sorry guys. We know the Oran Mor (our pub) isn't going to give any of tonight's profits to Ed Reavy, so we can't play the Hunter's House in the session tonight."
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Not at all, Unless the tune/photo/ is clearly marked as the property of someone, not to be reproduced .
If someone's got a problem with it they can contact us! Just as on the internet people cut and paste all the time, you want to police the internet? good luck to you.
The whole concept of ownership , certainly of intellectual property is of huge concern to the music industry , just as it is to the film industry . The west is busily trying to enforce its standards globally. Without much success yet.
Note Im not commenting on Morals because they differ from person to person. I object to someone attempting to enforce their particular moral code on others who have different standards.
right and wrong are very subjective. Is there absolute right and absolute wrong? .....
The law prosecute the man who takes the goose from the common, but not the man who takes the common from the goose.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"I object to someone attempting to enforce their particular moral code on others who have different standards.
right and wrong are very subjective" Thats one reason why we have laws. For example, the right to be identified as an author of a work, and what you have to do to ensure that someone who does not identify you can be had up for breaking that law is written down. If it goes against your moral code, that's your problem.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-otherprotect/c-moralrights.htm
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
In this thread, I see there are quite a few people quoting other people in their replies
eg. using "......................"
I hoped you have all asked those people for permission before doing so...
if that's not the case you'll all get 30 minutes in a confined room with the Prof
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Theirlandais
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
In terms of Ireland's copyright law relating to traditional music, it's well worth looking here: http://www.imro.ie/content/traditional-music.
I'm tickled by Will's claim that 'Morals are subjective'. This is arrant nonsense. It's a while since I've visited East Clare, but, unless things have changed dramatically, I suspect that the majority of its inhabitants are opposed to murder, burglary, rape or kidnapping. Then again, I could be wrong.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'Prof, are trying to assist TTC here or just wind him up?/'
I list composers that come to mind, as I have been doing throughout the thread.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
We have laws David? who is we? your laws do not apply in my country. The laws of this land do not apply in your country, why are people so busy trying to apply their laws to other countries? @ to maintain ownership.
So for example a cure for a terrible disease is intellectual property, rightfully, but at what point do the rights of those dying supersede the rights of the 'owner'.?
Laws of property, well have you noticed that the 1% and the 99% are having disagreements over who has rights to What.
If the 1% make the laws, which they break with impunity, to control the 99% , to maintain their wealth, at what point does the system break down? What is Moral and what is legal do not always coincide by a long shot.
By the way your mistake their David, its not my problem, its the problem of those that wish to maintain ownership over intellectual property.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
My apologies to piobagusfidil for not referencing him when I quoted him. I normally do, ironic that I forgot here.
Here's one for the wounded hussar re 'the folk process'. See the last paragraph of section 3 here : http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/section/77
I guess there is something similar in most jurisdications.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Crossed with piobagusfidil. As I said, there will be something similar in most jurisdictions. I know we get slagged for quoting wikipedia, but I doubt that in this case it is less reliable than this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors'_rights
So are you saying that you don't think someone who composes a tune that enters the tradition should have any rights over it ?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
an aside to answer Mac;
~Opposed to Murder rape and kidnapping? well yes I am, which is one reason I choose to live in Ireland, a country that unlike the UK does not uses these as tools for political and economic control, engages in wars and invasions casing huge mass deaths, that uses these things and the threat of them to terrorise thats whole wealth base is built upon slavery and centuries of going round the world robbing, raping and killing to gain pecuniary advantage.. Right and Wrong? hmmm
Mac is obviously not aware of the philosophical debate that has surrounded these issues for centuries. Is it OK to Torture? to Kill? to Rob?
Was it right to Firebomb Dresden? Hiroshima? Is it ok to torture if it saves a million children? To kill? Rob, rape? You got any glib answers?
The conversation is about intellectual property and the rights and wrongs of using this property unaccredited.
Its clear that anyone playing a tune composed by a living composer is using that persons intellectual property [though of course there are many countries and laws. ]
Who thinks its OK to play a tune by Liz Carrol, uncredited, in a session/gig? Is it ok if your not being paid? is it ok if your record it under a different name? Do you ask before hand if the LL is paying the IMRO fees? do you care?
Does anyone thinjk there is a moral difference between playing a tune in a pub and putting a photo on the net?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
sorry, I missed this out; >,<
Im sure ye can figure out where it goes
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Does anyone thinjk there is a moral difference between playing a tune in a pub and putting a photo on the net?" (piobagusfidil) Yes.
Now answer my question "So are you saying that you don't think someone who composes a tune that enters the tradition should have any rights over it ?" (me) Yes or No ?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
This "entering the tradition" thing is subjective. If you consider that you have composer's rights over a tune, then, staying with the legality issue, your tune ain't traditional. There are quite clear rules as far as that is concerned.
Composer's rights don't disappear if your auntie Jean played a tune for you that you later record, only to find out that it was composed by your uncle Jim.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Oh, ROTFLMFAOAOAOA! Clearly, there's been a grand psilocybin crop this year in East Clare.
Will, if there was an Olympic event for missing the point, then you'd be sure of the gold in 2012.
You haven't got a clue about moral philosophy or copyright law, but you should clearly consider a role as a stand-up comedian.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
<<So are you saying that you don't think someone who composes a tune that enters the tradition should have any rights over it ?" (me) Yes or No ?>>
legal right? or moral rights?
My point is that most everyone here plays tunes in sessions and neither accredit or give royalties to the owners of that intellectual copywrite. Are they right, but someone who copies a picture wrong? why?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Someone said on a previous thread that "Tradition" came from the same root as "Trade" and that it was about passing things round, much as is said on the home page for this site. I haven't checked that, but for the purpose of the question I was thining of "entered the tradition" as meaning it was passed on from player to player instead of or as in additon to being recorded or published as a score.
Si I guess Uncle Jim's tune would have started on a journey into the tradition before it was recorded whether or not Auntie Jean attributed it. So far as UK legislation is concerned it seems that unless Uncle Jim had waived his rights he still has them, but if he had not asserted them you would not get into trouble for not attributing the tune down in the pub or on the CD sleeve,
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"legal right? or moral rights?" (piobagusfidil) Either or both. You can answer twice.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
<<not get into trouble >> so its ok ? put aside the fact that he is the copyrite owner and has a right to a percentage of any monies earnt , because its ok, he doesnt know about it? or what do you mean?
He has a right to be identified and to payment whether he waives it , or not. But the onus is clearly on the performers to search out the owner and attribute the work., just saying you didn't know is no excuse in the eyes of the law.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
@David
Legal; no
moral yes.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"or what do you mean?" I mean what it says on the two links to UK legislation. Read what it says about asserting rights (and don't confuse what you read with any idea of having to 'copyright' something). If you don't take the time to understand that right to be identified and rights to royalties are different aspects of intellectual property then you are going to carry on confusing yourself.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'My point is that most everyone here plays tunes in sessions and neither accredit or give royalties to the owners of that intellectual copywrite. Are they right, but someone who copies a picture wrong? why?'
Simple performance of a tune at a session does not accrue royalties for the composer of that tune. Recording that performance and then publishing it in some form does so. Is that clear?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Re. photographs.
The same applies. A photograph is only subject to copyright once it has been published and its owner asserts ownership. If someone then uses said photograph without the copyright owner's permission, then copyright has been breached.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
And the recording of the session is a much easier thing to compare with a photograph.
No sure about some of that though Mac, I think these days in most jurisdictions copyright is automatic on creation of anything. And the bar on 'creativity' is set rather low, so it seems to include random snaps on a mobile phone
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Yes generally it's automatically copyrighted. David reread your link. Your confusing yourself. @ wallis ;public performance are covered, it's not just recordings.@ David a recording of a session , or recording a tune and putting it on the net, or transcribing a tune and uploading that transcription are closer to the photo . So should Jer check every tune here?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
'I think these days in most jurisdictions copyright is automatic on creation of anything.'
Well, photography is a slightly different kettle of fish because the act of developing the photograph is deemed to be publication.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by MacCruiskeen
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Yawn. I read the link fine piobagusfidil. I was being cautious because a) picking bits out of legislation is risky and b) I was disagreeing with MacCruiskeen about something complicated and in some ways unclear.
No-one mentioned transcribing a tune. Its difficult enough without you confusing the issue.
It is obvious that authorship will sometimes get forgotten during traditional transmission. Responsible 'editors' are mindful that their may be rights that cannot be traced. But, as indicated above, the offer to remove material that infringes rights should be a fall-back measure rather than a cop-out for the lazy. Have a look at the tunes database here for tunes that have known composers.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
No, your wrong David, I am not the first to mention a tune transcription. Sorry you find that confusing. Its quite simple really; The internet is a zone not controlled by any one government. If someone has a problem with something uploaded they can take it up with the site, if that is unsuccessful they can take it up with the owner of the server. if that is unsuccessfully they can maybe take it to court, maybe.
A tune transcription, is not the tune, just as a photograph of a piece of art is not the art, its a representation. If someone, or their estate, wishes to profit by printing a book of transcriptions of self penned tunes then a transcription of that tune by someone else without permission , on the net, can and does deprive the owner of that intellectual property the right to profit by their work which is why transcriptions can be made legally for private educational use , as long as they are not published, such as online in which case the owners of the estate have the sole right to authorise that transcription just as the the owner has sole right to authorise a public performance.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Heehee..... I knew I'd start a row with that one. Win.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Will, you have written a lot of blather but have not answered the question I (too subtlely) implied earlier: would *you* play a tune at a session which had a known composer? To make it even more complicated, lets pretend it's session at Willie Week when there are quite a lot of people about recording stuff with mobile phones and digital cameras.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Someone said on a previous thread that "Tradition" came from the same root as "Trade"
Well, that person was wrong ('tradition' comes from Latin, and 'trade' has Germanic roots) - but that isn't the point. I said "staying with the legality issue" - i.e. copyright.
If you assert your legal rights over a composition (i.e. royalties), it isn't so much "handed down" as "sold down the line". The attribution "traditional" in a publishing sense, would preclude any compositional rights. On the other foot, even if something was handed down through your family, it doesn't deny compositional rights to the author.
Looking again at "entering the tradition" - does a tune have to be handed down through generations or can a tune be "traditional" even though it is freshly composed?
The term is loosely used. Some seem to apply it to any tune within the idiom.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The PRS is supposed to funnel appropriate royalties to the composers of tunes played at sessions, via its licencing and sampling system. In practice it doesn't work at all well, but there is no legal reason to avoid playing in-copyright tunes in most sessions in the UK and no alternative to the PRS that's both practically and morally better.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Oh, I thought you were trying to open up the bag of worms about demands for performing rights payments being made to venues where sessions were held. A bit off-topic don't you think ?
The situation may be that though composers don't get a mention each time a tune is played at a session their authorship is still known 'within the culture'.
**So this new website could help that a lot.**
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
That to TSS. Crossed. Jack said it.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Well, that person was wrong " (Weejie). And my weasely reference to it was spotted !
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Possibly. Possibly, uh, not.
How many times have you asked someone for the name of a tune they just played and they said, "I don't know?" I personally have a ton of tunes I picked from sessions or from albums where they don't give tune names that I haven't even names for, much less composers. And that is a very crowded boat to be in. I have even been in situations where I met composers of fairly well-known tunes I've played for years and when they said, "I wrote X," it was completely new information to me. These things can and do get passed around the session scene without any attribution attached.
Not even the shiny new tune composer website would help with that. Nor, in its current incarnation, does it help anyone find out if the tune they are about to record on their new album has a known composer, since it doesn't as yet have a function where you can search for tunes.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
And I was opening a can of worms with regards to whether anyone has "rights" to tunes "performed" (Jack Gilder, where are you?!) at sessions. Just because we haven't had a proper knock-down-drag-out here in a few weeks and we are due for one.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Tunepal is supposed to identify the tunes (I haven't tried it but I believe it basically works). Once you've got the name a tune/composer database can do the rest. No need for one service to do both.
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
@TSS, yes I did, immediately under your question., too obvious for you perhaps?
# Posted on October 11th 2011 by piobagusfidil
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"If you consider that you have composer's rights over a tune, then, staying with the legality issue, your tune ain't traditional."
You could be on the right track there now, Weejie but I reckon it'd be kinda contentious with a lot of people here. As far as I know, new tunes are generally considered traditional if they fit within the tradition, so we enjoy playing Hunters House, The Mist Covered Mountains etc etc. regularly here.
But your idea is good, I think. To wit, if you as a traditional musician make up a new tune, it fits within the tradition AND you are happy to see it played widely & freely by all other exponents of the tradition, then it should be considered part of the tradition.
On the other hand, if you make up a new tune and insist on copyright entitlements, then regardless of whether it fits with the tradition, it ain't traditional.
Maybe that's of use to TTC - perhaps you should only feature tune composers who fit first criteria.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"As far as I know, new tunes are generally considered traditional if they fit within the tradition, "
Well, what I was getting at was more of - if a tune is given the attribute"traditional" in the publishing world, it kind of waives any composer royalties (more the "arrangement" rights or "Trad arr" label). But this has just about summed up the bigger picture. "Traditional" seems to have taken on a new meaning. Looked at literally, the word is defined as "handed down" (from the Latin traditionem - delivery, surrender, a handing down - interestingly, the word "treason" has the same roots) and the modern context is "handed down from generation to generation". Other aspects are generally applied with regard to music - the oral transmission, for example. So, with that in mind, can you say a tune by a contemporary composer is traditional? Obviously, if it has not been transmitted through generations, then it wouldn't fit the definition above. So, is it the style that gives it the designation "traditional"? If so, where is the tradition? A tradition of playing tunes in that style (this would seemingly fit other genres)? Is it the manner in which the players play the music? Well, it used to be that players would play the music in each other's homes - pub sessions were not the "tradition". The word might be seen to be a description of the structure (does a tune have to be a jig, reel etc, or is the melodic structure the factor more than the rhythmic structure?). Is it this "oral transmission"? Is it no longer traditional if somewhere along the transmission line a bit of manuscript paper was exchanged?
An example in Scotland is the facility to take up "traditional music" as an academic pursuit, where there seems to be an emphasis on "oral transmission", even though notation is recognised. The music is not "handed down" in this case, but "handed out" as part of a curriculum - something that seems rather remote from this "generations handing down music orally" picture. Yon teenager with his or her overdriven Fender Strat through a practice amp could just as easily have learned a riff orally (and this went on back in the days of skiffle - it has gone on through generations), passed on by another guitar player (or from a CD, just like a fiddler might pick up a tune - or does this negate the traditional aspect?) - does that make this style of music traditional?
Yes, this no doubt opens a can of worms, but it does illustrate how loosely the word "traditional" is applied. There is a distinct style of music, but the word used to describe it is not necessarily used literally. "Composers of traditional music" might be seen as an oxymoron to some - i.e. it couldn't be traditional at the time of composition if it hadn't gone through the process of becoming traditional. If it has to have gone through that process to qualify as traditional (the handing down), then the list of composers on the website could be considerably abridged.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Is it "in the publishing world" or "in the performing rights database world". Does "based on a Transylvanian folk tune" get coded as "Trad arr" ? Does an aversion to bringing aspects of the term "folk music" into the discussion mean that some aspects of the overloaded term "traditional" are getting passed over ?
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"Performing rights" are assigned to "published works" (publishing doesn't necessarily mean printed through a publisher - to "make the author known publicly" would probably suffice) - so both.
If something is based on a Transylvanian folk tune, that is basically what it is - the "trad arr" would involve the assertion by the person who did the "arr" (who might claim a bit more than "arr", rather complete composition rights, as it depends on how "based" the tune is) - without that claim, it's merely "trad".
And yes, the aversion to the term "folk music" probably has a lot to do with "traditional" being used more broadly.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"if a tune is given the attribute "traditional" in the publishing world, it kind of waives any composer royalties"
There are two different senses of the word "traditional" being used here. One is about the idiom of the tune - which in no way affects whether or not somebody is entitled to composer's royalties for it. The other is about its provenance - but the law doesn't recognize a category of tunes whose composer's identity is to be ignored.
There's an often-played Scottish reel sometimes called The Traditional Reel, sometimes Donald MacLeod's Reel. It seems Donald MacLeod wrote it. It lives up to its name, it is in a traditional style. It's still in copyright, though. I don't know whether Donald MacLeod's estate is collecting on it - maybe not, as the sums involved won't amount to much. The ownership issue would be taken a bit more seriously if somebody used it as the theme for a blockbuster movie.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by Jack Campin
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"One is about the idiom of the tune - which in no way affects whether or not somebody is entitled to composer's royalties for it"
Yes - the idiom. One would say "traditionally, the tunes are structured thus" (though there are reasonably wide margins).
"Traditional style" could also mean "conventional style" in this respect. Structural regularities that conform to a particular style of music.
There are also certain structural regularities in reggae music, or soul music etc and this is due in no small part to traditional process. However, when a tune is given the attribute "traditional" by, say, the recording industry, there are clearly no royalties involved for composition (traditional in this case basically means anonymous).
To actually say "I've composed a traditional tune" should be read as "I've composed a tune in a traditional style". It still would make that term rather loose IMO.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
"but the law doesn't recognize a category of tunes whose composer's identity is to be ignored." Is it just that there is no handy single word within the law ? I think the law would recognise "Unknown - public domain - arr ... " and "Niel Gow - public domain - arr. ..." or even "Living composer - public domain - arr ..." if the composer had chosen to do that. I guess a publisher wouldn't want to just put "Unknown - arr ..." though even if that was accurate and unavoidable.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I guess that Niel Gow hasn't registered with the PRS so the industry isn't too bothered about giving him credit!
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
So if someone has been dead for so long that the copyright will have expired do we acknowledge him out of interest to ourselves and others rather than due to any moral right ? Is recognition of those in the past about us or them ?
I think the interest here in http://irishtunecomposers.weebly.com/ has been both interest to self on the part of users and as an opportunity to recognise composers.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by David50
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Yoy've listed a composer on your site as "Lep McCann", which I think was what someone posted near the beginning of this discussion. I think the name meant is Leo McCann, accordion and whistle player from Co. Armagh, now resident in Edinburgh.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Leo is from County Tyrone, Kenny.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
You're quite correct, "Weejie". Haven't seen Leo in 10 years or so, but he's coming up to Aberdeen in a few weeks time for the Squeezebox & Moothies festival.
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
It must be at least eight years since I last saw Leo, Kenny. An absolute gem - Linda too!
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
That's funny, I also thought Leo was from Armagh - I wonder what made me think that? Aye, he's a good man is Leo..
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by On Sabbatical
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I'm having second thoughts about this. We'll have to ask him. What I'm pretty sure of is Leo telling me that he learned a lot of his music from the Armagh Pipers Club, ergo..................maybe I made a wrong assumption.
Sorry about going off topic here.
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Seamus Shannon deserves inclusion for this :
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/10857
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Leo moved out to East Lothian a while ago now. It's a struggle to get him in town for a tune
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by ...
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Terry Tully for this :
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7539
An interesting reversal here - a tune composed by an Irish musician, which has probably been recorded more by Scottish musicians than Irish.
The same would be true of "The Pumpkin's Fancy".
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2185
Frances O'Connor for the above. "Sliabh Notes" also recorded another 4 of his tunes on the same CD as this one, all of them great tunes.
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Some people won't like it, but you'd have to include Finbar Furey for his "Lonesome Boatman"...........................taxi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Which leads me to.................................
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/248
by Davy Arthur, and currently in 1449 tune books.
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
" What I'm pretty sure of is Leo telling me that he learned a lot of his music from the Armagh Pipers Club, ergo.................."
Leo is from Benburb, Co. Tyrone. It's walking distance away from the Armagh border, and about six or seven miles from the city of Armagh itself. I believe he was a member of the Armagh Pipers Club.
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Weejie
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
I believe that the farm that Leo grew up on looks out on the Blackwater river, which I think is the boundary of Tyrone, the other side being Armagh. You can't get much closer than that!
# Posted on October 13th 2011 by Weejie
Website about Tune Composers
What would you lot give to read the emails in The Tune Composers inbox?
# Posted on October 14th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Mary Bergin - for these 3 on “Celtic Aire” by “Dordan”.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7202
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7210
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7221
# Posted on October 14th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Matt Molloy , for the following :
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3656
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/10500
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/9856
….and that makes 300 posts !
# Posted on October 14th 2011 by Kenny
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
FWIW, the Chris Langan book was published in 2002, just over ten years after his death, not 'in 1992, just one year before his death' as the website says.
# Posted on October 14th 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
Here, what about Will Harmon here - isn't he the chap who thought about Banging his Frog on the Sofa??!
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/371
# Posted on October 14th 2011 by the wounded hussar
Re: New Website about Irish Tune Composers
The Snowy Path, Mark Kelly
# Posted on October 22nd 2011 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski