This morning I read the following news item about a recent Noble Prize winner's discovery of "quasicrystals." I was struck by the apparent similarity between these structures and the improvisational aspects of well-played Irish tunes.
"Shechtman... observed atoms in a crystal he had made form a five-sided pattern that did not repeat itself, defying received wisdom that they must create repetitious patterns, like triangles, squares or hexagons.... Scientists had previously thought solid matter had only two states -- crystalline, like diamonds, where atoms are arranged in rigid rows, and amorphous, like metals, with no particular order. Quasicrystalline matter offers a third possibility and opens the door to new kinds of materials for use in industry."
"Living things, including flowers, fruit and shellfish, also demonstrate similar arrangements, which scientists associate with the efficient packing of materials into growing organisms."
And also, perhaps--the efficient packing of notes into a single line of melody, so that a whole musical arrangement lives in that elegant, simple, consistent-but-somehow-not-repetitive structure?
Wow, guys. You took a story that includes:
* A 30-year struggle for vindication, against enemies that included a 2-time Nobel winner.
* A fascinating new look at the building blocks of the universe.
* A striking element of art inspiring science--and it was Islamic art that inspired an Israeli scientist!
And got some juvenile name-calling out of it. Good job.
I like where John is going with this and his attempt to link this discovery to the concepts of Irish music. I used to be in that angry camp of scientists that saw this music in a strict rigid form. I clearly recall years ago telling another muso "you're playing it wrong" when the person was clearly and cleverly just ornamenting a great tune. The audacity - and me only being three years into my journey. Ah, so it goes. Even the arrogant can be shown the light by those who seek a higher path.
Hey, I just thought it was interesting, and inspiring, and might even help somebody explain what's going on in Irish music ("Well, it sounds repetitive until you learn how to listen to it--there are little differences between each repeat, and yet it all fits together somehow--like a quasicrystal.")
Besides, I know how the man feels. I tell ya, it ain't easy, bein' a misunderstood genius.
There are, no doubt, mathematical formulas which could account for the basic repetitive patterns within Irish dance music - groups of 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 24, 48 beats in jigs, for example. The intervals between groups of three and six beats in a jig are probably the most basic 'atomic' units of the most commonly played Irish tunes, and what makes them sound Irish, as opposed to Breton or Arabic, are the patterns of tonal and rhythmic repetition and deviation within a series of notes. It would probably be a lifetime's work to deduce a formula that accurately describes these most basic patterns of Irish music.
An accurate mathematical description of what is occurring within these groups of six or so notes would be immensely complex, and wouldn't even begin to touch on the more important relationship between the larger musical phrases. To attempt to formulate a description of the more general musical practices particular to individual players, and contributing to the greater complexity of well-played Irish music would be humanly impossible.
The analogy between quasicrystals and Irish music is pretty, but music isn't matter; it's already abstract, and using another abstraction to describe it further complicates the description. Where the analogy begins to unravel is in the difference between the conscious propagation of improvisational musical structures and the unconscious, chemical and automatic, development of crystalline and quasicrystalline growth. A conscious quasicrystal growth, with the ability to make split-second choices of atomic restructuring, obsessive and alcoholic tendencies, a predeliction for bad musical puns, combined with a sudden and inexplicable inability to remember even the most basic facts about school-level chemistry? Now you're talking...
It's probably a cyclical thing, Ben. It was probably equally as insulting during the McCarthy-era and, like now, meant the same thing as "communist" and "socialist."
I would like to answer your question, ethical blend, but--to paraphrase--an accurate description of what is occurring within these groups of bigots would be immensely complex, and wouldn't even begin to touch on the more important relationship between the larger issues.
It also reminds me of the proposal that lipids are a state separate from liquid (as in liquid crystal).
These sub-divisions of the states of matter seem to progress, just as science continues to identify more sub-particles.
I also like your association between crystals and music. It was not long ago that the use of the imaginary plane allowed us to explore fractals and chaos phenomena. Of course, the imaginary plane is a meta construct - abstract. And yet it has reality.
All of this somehow reminds me of holography - where the interference patterns of light can be captured to re-construct a meta-image of a real object in 3-dimensional space. When viewed microscopically, the hologram bears no resemblance to the projected image. It's just a bunch of interference peaks. Patterns that encode perception.
Then when you consider the propensity of self organising systems to acurately detect patterns (including fractals), it's not such a leap of imagination to assume that Irish music is fractal in nature - there may be some correlation to quasi-crystaline decision branches built into the genre. Or perhapse it could be defined as a structural pardigm in its own right.
I have no problem with extending physical observations into the abstract realm - abstract symbolism is, after all, a method of encoding perception. The boundaries between the physical and the abstract could well be a lot more mutable than we assume.
I for one, take great pleasure in experience the unfolding of time - be it the formation of a crystal or a rendition of a tune. If discovered, I don't think the ITM tune paradigm would be all that complex .. perhapse longish and hard to decipher (as is the human genome), but simple in form.
One could postulate that the various cultural musics are indeed accurately encoding compressed information about that culture. If true, it would be interesting to know what is decoding that information and to what purpose - this might help gain insight into tribalism and allow an empiracle way of addessing some of the less positive aspects of it.
Thanks for that, Mozle. I'm not mathematical, myself, so when it comes to things like fractals, I stand there dumbstruck like those protohumans staring at the obelisk in Kubrick's 2001:A Space Odyssey. I sense that they are important, somehow, but I don't begin to understand them.
The tribal aspects of the whole thing (both the Schectman case, and music in general) are interesting. I guess you never know, about tribalism. So much misery comes from it--and yet also things like music, and mosaics that inspire scientific discoveries (or re-discoveries?).
And meanwhile, time continues to unfold... I think I'll play some tunes. Who knows, maybe I'll inspire something, someday.
quasicrystals and Irish trad
quasicrystals and Irish trad
This morning I read the following news item about a recent Noble Prize winner's discovery of "quasicrystals." I was struck by the apparent similarity between these structures and the improvisational aspects of well-played Irish tunes.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/06/us-nobel-chemistry-idUSTRE7941EP20111006
"Shechtman... observed atoms in a crystal he had made form a five-sided pattern that did not repeat itself, defying received wisdom that they must create repetitious patterns, like triangles, squares or hexagons.... Scientists had previously thought solid matter had only two states -- crystalline, like diamonds, where atoms are arranged in rigid rows, and amorphous, like metals, with no particular order. Quasicrystalline matter offers a third possibility and opens the door to new kinds of materials for use in industry."
"Living things, including flowers, fruit and shellfish, also demonstrate similar arrangements, which scientists associate with the efficient packing of materials into growing organisms."
And also, perhaps--the efficient packing of notes into a single line of melody, so that a whole musical arrangement lives in that elegant, simple, consistent-but-somehow-not-repetitive structure?
Or maybe it's just me.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by John Galt
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
It sounds as if scientists have discovered nature!
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Spoken like a true Humanities student...
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Wow, guys. You took a story that includes:
* A 30-year struggle for vindication, against enemies that included a 2-time Nobel winner.
* A fascinating new look at the building blocks of the universe.
* A striking element of art inspiring science--and it was Islamic art that inspired an Israeli scientist!
And got some juvenile name-calling out of it. Good job.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by John Galt
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
In fairness, with a screen name like John Galt it is a rather open invitation.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
~
not to mention an accurate description.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
The Only Way is Ethics.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Rudall the time
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
I like where John is going with this and his attempt to link this discovery to the concepts of Irish music. I used to be in that angry camp of scientists that saw this music in a strict rigid form. I clearly recall years ago telling another muso "you're playing it wrong" when the person was clearly and cleverly just ornamenting a great tune. The audacity - and me only being three years into my journey. Ah, so it goes. Even the arrogant can be shown the light by those who seek a higher path.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Music is like a flower ... a living organism. Who'd a thunk?
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by Batgirl has left the GPL ;)
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Music is like a simile.
# Posted on October 6th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Hey, I just thought it was interesting, and inspiring, and might even help somebody explain what's going on in Irish music ("Well, it sounds repetitive until you learn how to listen to it--there are little differences between each repeat, and yet it all fits together somehow--like a quasicrystal.")
Besides, I know how the man feels. I tell ya, it ain't easy, bein' a misunderstood genius.
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by John Galt
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
There are, no doubt, mathematical formulas which could account for the basic repetitive patterns within Irish dance music - groups of 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 24, 48 beats in jigs, for example. The intervals between groups of three and six beats in a jig are probably the most basic 'atomic' units of the most commonly played Irish tunes, and what makes them sound Irish, as opposed to Breton or Arabic, are the patterns of tonal and rhythmic repetition and deviation within a series of notes. It would probably be a lifetime's work to deduce a formula that accurately describes these most basic patterns of Irish music.
An accurate mathematical description of what is occurring within these groups of six or so notes would be immensely complex, and wouldn't even begin to touch on the more important relationship between the larger musical phrases. To attempt to formulate a description of the more general musical practices particular to individual players, and contributing to the greater complexity of well-played Irish music would be humanly impossible.
The analogy between quasicrystals and Irish music is pretty, but music isn't matter; it's already abstract, and using another abstraction to describe it further complicates the description. Where the analogy begins to unravel is in the difference between the conscious propagation of improvisational musical structures and the unconscious, chemical and automatic, development of crystalline and quasicrystalline growth. A conscious quasicrystal growth, with the ability to make split-second choices of atomic restructuring, obsessive and alcoholic tendencies, a predeliction for bad musical puns, combined with a sudden and inexplicable inability to remember even the most basic facts about school-level chemistry? Now you're talking...
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by Dragut Reis
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
FWIW my comment wasn't intended to be an insult - far from it. But I was in too much of a hurry to elaborate...
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by Mark Harmer
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Since when did "humanities student" become an insult? Was it around the same time "liberal" became an insult in US politics?
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
what's up with irish music, every tune sounds the same, i don't get it
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by palethinboy
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Has "liberal" only recently become an insult in the States then? It's been an insult here for as long as anyone can remember.
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
It's probably a cyclical thing, Ben. It was probably equally as insulting during the McCarthy-era and, like now, meant the same thing as "communist" and "socialist."
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by DrSilverSpear
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Ah right. (This is a rhetorical question coming up, as Emily will readily see, but I thought I ought to flag that up for non-Emily type people
)
How the f could "liberal" ever mean the same as "communist"? Thumb to kink of it, how could "communist" mean the same as "socialist"?
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by ethical blend
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
You need to travel across the pond to Emilyland for the answers to these questions
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by bazouki dave
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Thanks, Dragut Reis, I take it all back.
I would like to answer your question, ethical blend, but--to paraphrase--an accurate description of what is occurring within these groups of bigots would be immensely complex, and wouldn't even begin to touch on the more important relationship between the larger issues.
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by John Galt
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
stop listening to npr and listen to some tunes would ya
# Posted on October 7th 2011 by kook
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
We're not liberals any more, apparently at some point when I wasn't looking, I became a 'progressive.'
# Posted on October 8th 2011 by AlBrown
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Hey John,
Thank you for the post. Fascinating!
It also reminds me of the proposal that lipids are a state separate from liquid (as in liquid crystal).
These sub-divisions of the states of matter seem to progress, just as science continues to identify more sub-particles.
I also like your association between crystals and music. It was not long ago that the use of the imaginary plane allowed us to explore fractals and chaos phenomena. Of course, the imaginary plane is a meta construct - abstract. And yet it has reality.
All of this somehow reminds me of holography - where the interference patterns of light can be captured to re-construct a meta-image of a real object in 3-dimensional space. When viewed microscopically, the hologram bears no resemblance to the projected image. It's just a bunch of interference peaks. Patterns that encode perception.
Then when you consider the propensity of self organising systems to acurately detect patterns (including fractals), it's not such a leap of imagination to assume that Irish music is fractal in nature - there may be some correlation to quasi-crystaline decision branches built into the genre. Or perhapse it could be defined as a structural pardigm in its own right.
I have no problem with extending physical observations into the abstract realm - abstract symbolism is, after all, a method of encoding perception. The boundaries between the physical and the abstract could well be a lot more mutable than we assume.
I for one, take great pleasure in experience the unfolding of time - be it the formation of a crystal or a rendition of a tune. If discovered, I don't think the ITM tune paradigm would be all that complex .. perhapse longish and hard to decipher (as is the human genome), but simple in form.
One could postulate that the various cultural musics are indeed accurately encoding compressed information about that culture. If true, it would be interesting to know what is decoding that information and to what purpose - this might help gain insight into tribalism and allow an empiracle way of addessing some of the less positive aspects of it.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by Mozle
Re: quasicrystals and Irish trad
Thanks for that, Mozle. I'm not mathematical, myself, so when it comes to things like fractals, I stand there dumbstruck like those protohumans staring at the obelisk in Kubrick's 2001:A Space Odyssey. I sense that they are important, somehow, but I don't begin to understand them.
The tribal aspects of the whole thing (both the Schectman case, and music in general) are interesting. I guess you never know, about tribalism. So much misery comes from it--and yet also things like music, and mosaics that inspire scientific discoveries (or re-discoveries?).
And meanwhile, time continues to unfold... I think I'll play some tunes. Who knows, maybe I'll inspire something, someday.
# Posted on October 12th 2011 by John Galt