The Session >> Discussions >> Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Comments
Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
I posted this on another site but didn't get any responses, anyway here it is: When I try different strings, I have to admit that by the time the strings are settled & played in, I can't reliably tell all the little nuances & differences from one to the next. I have a friend who has an incredible musical memory, perfect pitch etc & I ask him to take note of changes before & after & even he has a hard time with it.
Are there any good techniques for this? Maybe recording, but my playing can change from day to day depending on my mood & the weather.
I can also have a hard time with hearing if I like the results of have my soundpost adjusted. It would be nice to hear the two 'side by each' to hear the differences in tone.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Brad, yep, it's tricky. Usually when I try a new type of strings, the previous set is old and worn out. So almost anything sounds better than that. Plus, many strings sound better after they've settled in for a week or two or more. Who can remember what the previous set sounded like by then?
It helps me to really listen to specific qualities of the open strings. So I pay particular attention to whether a given string sounds bright or warm; thin, muffly, or full; smooth or edgy. I also do some bowed triplets and quick string changes to test responsiveness. I'll pop off each string to see how well they resonate and sustain on my fiddle. And I listen for how much bow noise a string delivers. Finally, after all the open string tests, I pay attention to how the string feels under my fingers. (Some strings feel hard and sharp, others feel silky and smooth.)
It does help if you can get more consistent with your mechanics so you can produce a desired sound one day after the next. Easier said than done, and it takes time (years), but expressive control lets you play by choice rather than always within that day's limits.
As for sound post settings, what works for me is moving the sound post around myself, often all over the place (within some semblance of the usual parameters). I use the scissor style sound post setter so I can grab and re-place the post over and over without whittling it down to nothing or splitting it. Move it, play it, move it, play it, move it, play it.
And through all of this--strings and sound post--bear in mind that it's probably less about direct comparisons, and more about finding the sound you want. In other words, not what string is "better" than another, but what string gives you the sound you're after. At least for the time being. Things change, including your ears, and your listening sensibilities, so what sounds "right" today may not float your boat in a year or five years.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Everything Will said, and the following -- as far as I can tell, it is impossible to make a direct comparison between two strings by taking one off and putting another one on. The length of time alone is enough for your memory to be inaccurate, and there are added complications such as the age, cleanliness, thickness, feel and even the name and packaging of the strings. Also the bridge can move, and the way you play the two strings can change.
All you can do is think 'I like the sound of this' or 'this sounds a bit shrill', etc., and make a general decision as to which make you like over a period of months.
Before moving the soundpost, I would try moving the bridge. A millimetre towards or away from the post, or from side to side, can get rid of wolf tones, or nasal or shrill overtones. If you are happy with the change, then move the bridge back to its 'proper' position, and change the soundpost accordingly.
Make sure the bridge is at the right angle, and at the same time release any stress imparted by string changing, by holding each side of the bridge between finger and thumb and firmly pushing or pulling into place. Look down each side of the fingerboard and check that the bridge is lined up equally.
Sometimes a shrill 'e' string can be cured by putting a finger under it each side of the bridge and your thumb on top and rocking it in a little see-saw motion to balance the tensions.
Recording the strings might be worth a try, but I doubt it. I've yet to hear a recording that sounded the same as the original. Maybe an oscilloscope might be better, but you would need someone who could interpret the results. At the end of the day, it's how happy you feel that matters. Go with your own feelings, and ignore the analysis.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Will and Gam have nailed it. For string comparisons don't try to remember the sound, just remember a description of it.
For soundpost adjustment you don't try to compare sounds, you concentrate on what is wrong with the sound at the moment.
Moving the post North/South alters the timbre of the instrument, East/West alters the balance across the strings. Keep those two movements separate - ie get the post in the right place N/S before making E/W adjustments, never move it diagonally.
If the post is too far North the fiddle will be loud and harsh, with little warmth, move South and it will get quieter and warmer. Go too far South and it will start to sound 'boxy'.
So if the fiddle sounds boxy, you move North in small increments. When it starts to sound harsh you know you've gone too far, so going back one step will put you on the sweet spot. At no point do you need to compare two sounds.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
As a beginner of 7 years, I find that my bowing technique is not consistent enough to give accurate results from changing strings. I can tell the difference between old and new strings, but as much by feel under the bow as by sound. Perhaps if I were to try stringing my fiddle with some forbiddingly expensive set, I would be instantly converted, but I don't feel that my level of playing warrants it. When I first started playing, I used Thomastik Dominants, as everyone seemed to regard them as the industry standard (I was horrified by the price at first, having previously played mandolin for 10 years, and spent a fraction of the amount on *8* strings). But, for the last year or so, I have used nothing but D'Addario Preludes - mainly because they are about half the price - and they sound no worse to me; I think they *feel* somewhat better.
As for soundpost adjustments, I find the effects more discernible - just as well, as I do a bit of set-up work on fiddles, for other people as well as myself. But, even then, I find that the difference between one fiddle and another is often far greater than any change in tone effected by a soundpost adjustment.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Smoke and mirrors
A really good violin maker/repairer/dealer I know often has people bringing their violins in to him complaining that they think the sound post needs adjusting. He just hangs them on the wall and doesn't touch them. A few days later the owner comes back in, has a quick play on their fiddle and pronounces the bloke a genius. He always says "no charge" of course.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
@CMO "... forbiddingly expensive set ..."
I tried one of those about 18 months ago on my orchestral violin on the well-meant advice of the orchestra's leader, and it was not a good experience, hard under the fingers (even with my low action) and a harsh strident tone. Those strings were given their chance, I played them daily for three or four weeks, and then moved them to the session fiddle. They didn't play any better there either, so I gave them away.
After that FES disaster I moved over to plain gut on both fiddles. I chose Savarez after a while with Pirastro Chorda, and the Savarez are easily the best to play of all the strings I've tried over the years in their responsiveness, projection, and of course tone, as well as being significantly less expensive than their wound counterparts. They don't lose their tone like synthetics do, so effectively have a longer playing life.
An interesting side effect of gut on my old violin is that the wolf resonances clustered half-way up the G immediately disappeared. I put this down to the combination of gut's lower tension and an old ebony tailpiece I put back on - fine tuners don't work with gut. I also took the opportunity to ensure that the string after-length was precisely as it should be (one-sixth of the nut-bridge length).
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
"People need to be taking more ownership of their sound and stop blaming their tools as much"
A sick fiddle is a sick fiddle and there's no point ignoring the need for routine maintenance. But, yes - if only speaking for myself - I have a very long way to go to get the best possible sound out of my fiddle in its current set-up. Once I've achieved that (i.e. never) I might think about upgrading.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
"What, in your experience, do you find helpful?"
I had been feeling dissatisfied with my fiddle for some time, I kept trying different strings, different bows, more rosin, less rosin.
I was having an email conversation with Will Harmon, about other aspects of music, and I sent him a recording of me playing a tune. Will said "it sounds like you need a better fiddle, the A and D strings sound weak". I was more than a little horrified: I bought the fiddle from someone who used it professionally, he is not only a fiddler, he's also a record producer and a violin dealer, and I had been really satisfied with the fiddle, I thought I would never need another. The fiddle was much better than I am. But I realised Will was right, it didn't sound good and I was having to work very hard when playing it.
So I took it to a luthier. Did the soundpost need adjustment? He gently inserted a knife between the ribs and the back, and the back fell off. Seems it had been coming unglued. He glued it up again, and now it sounds great. When I first played it in the shop after the repair, the difference was stunning.
So in my experience what I found helpful was Will.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Bernie thanks for the kind words, but I was just the bloke you happened to contact. I suspect most experienced fiddlers would've heard the same thing I diid--an imbalance across the strings.
And, contrary to Llig's shot from the hip, that's a great example of the instrument itself needing some attention, not the player, to get the best sound.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
llig,
It was pointed out to me a long time ago that there is a very good reason why 'A good workman never blames his tools'. The reason is quite simply that a good workman doesn't own bad tools. You won't find a luthier buying chisels in the pound shop.
And whilst I fully agree that if you don't like the sound you are making the answer almost always lies in practicing more rather than upgrading your instrument, at the same time it makes sense to ensure you are getting the best performance possible out of whatever grade of instrument you happen to own. And that invariably involves a bit of experimentation with things like strings and post position, which are easily and cheaply changed.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
I'm not sure about that Will. Maybe if you asked them "do you think there is something wrong with this fiddle?" they would come up with that response, but I wasn't asking you about the fiddle at all.
What also interests me about it is that I had been struggling with the fiddle for some time, but hadn't got beyond the vague idea that something was wrong somewhere.
Maybe, if you really aren't feeling happy about your instrument, the thing to do is to ask a good player to give it a try? I don't know.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
The short answer is that you need to figure out the various dimensions that things change (bright/dark, present/spread-out, treble/bass), then decide what direction you want things to change. If you try to go just by "sounds better/worse" without trying to describe it in more specific terms, you'll run yourself in circles. In practicality, many of the dimensions are interconnected: more volume and presence tends to mean a harsher sound, and a sweeter/deeper tone diminishes presence and volume.
For the record, I recommend against soundpost moving, except by certified professionals once every few years. The fiddle takes a while to settle in to a new soundpost, so moving it around can actually be counterproductive.
As for strings, I went through a very expensive string-testing cycle a few years back and learned that it doesn't matter as much as you think. While strings do have different characteristics, it's too easy to pick a new set of strings because it "fixes" some aspect of your sound (perhaps you want crisper articulation), but then you realize that your tone is harsh (because you are no longer focused on articulation--your next problem is your tone), so you get a set of strings that have a better tone... But now your articulation is fuzzy (especially aften the strings have worn-in) because you've been letting your strings do the work of articulating for you... so you try another set of strings...
In short, you have a problem with your sound, so you decide to get a different set of strings... Now you have two problems with your sound: 1) how to fix the original problem, 2) how to learn to play on the new strings.
But in general I think llig is right about taking ownership of their own sound. If your tone is harsh, try to figure out how to sweeten it with your right hand. If your articulation is fuzzy, you need to work at improving it with your hands. Shifting strings more often than every few months is something of a counterproductive (and expensive!) hobby.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
My solution to this is to have a good relationship with a good violin shop with an in-house luthier. Not possible in every location, of course, but shops like these can be such a great way to learn about your fiddle and how to keep it sounding good. They give string recommendations based on the character of the fiddle, will move your sound post around to your liking, adjust your bridge just so, check any suspicious buzzes, etc. They will help you with the adjustments you need to achieve the quality of sound you want. Much easier (and cheaper) than randomly experimenting with various brands of strings and making your own (potentially harmful) soundpost adjustments.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Very constructive comments from everyone. I agree with Llig - I'm not looking for some magic bullet that will 'fix' anything. I was just looking for advice on telling the difference before & after.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
In light of Georgi's good comments, I'll clarify my earlier posts.
I only move my sound post around when my fiddle goes wonky from seasonal (dramatic here in Montana) changes in humidity. So about twice a year I twiddle with the sound post for a day or two until I'm happy with the sound.
And I'll point out that I've been a professional luthier and have training in fiddle set up and repair. So this sort of thing isn't just a DIY experiment in my case. (That said, I believe that with some mentoring and practice, anyone can learn to adjust their own sound post and make some other important and rather personal set up tweaks. Learning to do this is better than the all-too-common option of having your set up done by an experienced repair person who doesn't play fiddle.)
Also, because I work out of music shop, I get to try various strings for free or very cheap. Despite that, I tend to play the same brand and make of strings for years at a time. I've been using my current choice for more than 2 years now and see no need to change.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Oh, and as Martin Hayes once said, the main difference among fiddles is that with some, it takes longer to figure out how to get the sound your want out of them.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
I use Thomastik Vision Soloist for the G, D, and A, and a Thomastik Superflexible No. 8 for the E.
That's what works well for me, on my fiddle, playing mostly in my small local session. If my regular session was bigger (louder) and I wanted more volume, I'd probably use Helicore mediums (but still the Superflexible No. 8 E).
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
There's plenty of truth in Llig's take ownership plan, and I think probably little harm (except maybe to your pocketbook) in trying out all different ranges of strings. I have had some chats with my luthier about shrillness... etc, and hes very honest, and has so far refused to adjust soundposts, or replace bridges, and instead we talked about humidity, bow choice, and no his ego isn't playing a roll he didn't initally set up either of these instruments. There's about a thousand ways to skin this cat, and taking ownership is a start. I sat for about an hour last night, messing around with very small adjustments to finger placement listening for waffling and vibrations in my tone, play a micron flat, then rolling my finger until it's just right, deconstructing the tunes phrases and so on. I wish I could just have him adjust the sound post so I sound better, but I noticed when I put serious work into my own tone development it has paid off.
Humidity changes are really a bear in my opinion. I have a fiddle that just hates dry weather, it sounds aweful when it's in a warm dry room in winter, and another one that seems to tolerate it quite well. Too bad they don't rate them on the shelf in the shop for their humidity tolerance.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Most fiddles don't like low humidity, tonally and structurally. Here in Montana, spring weather may peg the humidity at 40% for a few months, but the rest of the year it's not uncommon to get down around 11% or 12% humidity, sometimes even into the single digits. Lips and fingertips parch and crack, and so can a fiddle. Adjusting the sound post helps relieve stress on the top (and back). Some people go so far as to have a slightly longer second sound post for the dry times.
Sound post and bridge placement can have a huge effect on tone and balance across the strings. It's one thing to tell someone to "take ownership and practice more" when they've been playing only for 5 or 10 years. But when a fiddler has 25 or 30 years of attentive, mechanically solid and ever-improving woodshedding under their belt, there's no reason not to look at fiddle set up to make sure that player is getting the full potential out of the instrument. Playing a poorly set up fiddle is like running a race in shoes with broken laces and pebbles and burrs in the toe box. I can imagine better ways to spend my time.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
i am looking forward to the day when my not-very-high-end fiddle is holding me back more than my own lack of skill. so far, it's usually the owner-operator behind the shortcomings.
but if i had an expendable fiddle, i'd love to mess around with sound posts and and bridges stuff, just to teach myself to hear and feel all the subtleties mentioned above.
i'm kind of afraid my hearing acuity will not last til that day...
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
full measure, an alternative to messing with your own sound post and bridge, etc., is to just play lots of different fiddles. Whenever you get a chance to visit a violin shop, play a dozen or so, just to listen for all the differences. Of course, those differences won't be down to just sound posts and bridge placement, but you'll get an earful of different timbres, evenness (or not) across the strings, etc., and the more you do that, the better you'll get at understanding what to listen for. Keep the "labels" in mind--having names for what to listen for helps in discerning among all the acoustic qualities, and in hearing how one fiddle sounds different from another (not unlike being able to recognize different people by their voices).
Even if you get to visit a violin shop once in a blue moon, make it a priority to play through a bunch of their instruments, just to educate your ear.
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
excellent idea, will. i will try to get over my embarrassment in the face of the violin-erati.
the idea of putting words to the qualities is especially useful, as it will give me pegs to hang my evaluations on. words can help me to remember sounds, i can't always remember a tune when i hear its name, but if it's a song, the words bring the tune to me.
round here, most friends will let you try their fiddles, too, i will do it.
Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
I posted this on another site but didn't get any responses, anyway here it is: When I try different strings, I have to admit that by the time the strings are settled & played in, I can't reliably tell all the little nuances & differences from one to the next. I have a friend who has an incredible musical memory, perfect pitch etc & I ask him to take note of changes before & after & even he has a hard time with it.
Are there any good techniques for this? Maybe recording, but my playing can change from day to day depending on my mood & the weather.
I can also have a hard time with hearing if I like the results of have my soundpost adjusted. It would be nice to hear the two 'side by each' to hear the differences in tone.
What, in your experience, do you find helpful?
Thanks
Brad
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by B Rad
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Brad, yep, it's tricky. Usually when I try a new type of strings, the previous set is old and worn out. So almost anything sounds better than that. Plus, many strings sound better after they've settled in for a week or two or more. Who can remember what the previous set sounded like by then?
It helps me to really listen to specific qualities of the open strings. So I pay particular attention to whether a given string sounds bright or warm; thin, muffly, or full; smooth or edgy. I also do some bowed triplets and quick string changes to test responsiveness. I'll pop off each string to see how well they resonate and sustain on my fiddle. And I listen for how much bow noise a string delivers. Finally, after all the open string tests, I pay attention to how the string feels under my fingers. (Some strings feel hard and sharp, others feel silky and smooth.)
It does help if you can get more consistent with your mechanics so you can produce a desired sound one day after the next. Easier said than done, and it takes time (years), but expressive control lets you play by choice rather than always within that day's limits.
As for sound post settings, what works for me is moving the sound post around myself, often all over the place (within some semblance of the usual parameters). I use the scissor style sound post setter so I can grab and re-place the post over and over without whittling it down to nothing or splitting it. Move it, play it, move it, play it, move it, play it.
And through all of this--strings and sound post--bear in mind that it's probably less about direct comparisons, and more about finding the sound you want. In other words, not what string is "better" than another, but what string gives you the sound you're after. At least for the time being. Things change, including your ears, and your listening sensibilities, so what sounds "right" today may not float your boat in a year or five years.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Everything Will said, and the following -- as far as I can tell, it is impossible to make a direct comparison between two strings by taking one off and putting another one on. The length of time alone is enough for your memory to be inaccurate, and there are added complications such as the age, cleanliness, thickness, feel and even the name and packaging of the strings. Also the bridge can move, and the way you play the two strings can change.
All you can do is think 'I like the sound of this' or 'this sounds a bit shrill', etc., and make a general decision as to which make you like over a period of months.
Before moving the soundpost, I would try moving the bridge. A millimetre towards or away from the post, or from side to side, can get rid of wolf tones, or nasal or shrill overtones. If you are happy with the change, then move the bridge back to its 'proper' position, and change the soundpost accordingly.
Make sure the bridge is at the right angle, and at the same time release any stress imparted by string changing, by holding each side of the bridge between finger and thumb and firmly pushing or pulling into place. Look down each side of the fingerboard and check that the bridge is lined up equally.
Sometimes a shrill 'e' string can be cured by putting a finger under it each side of the bridge and your thumb on top and rocking it in a little see-saw motion to balance the tensions.
Recording the strings might be worth a try, but I doubt it. I've yet to hear a recording that sounded the same as the original. Maybe an oscilloscope might be better, but you would need someone who could interpret the results. At the end of the day, it's how happy you feel that matters. Go with your own feelings, and ignore the analysis.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by gam
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Will and Gam have nailed it. For string comparisons don't try to remember the sound, just remember a description of it.
For soundpost adjustment you don't try to compare sounds, you concentrate on what is wrong with the sound at the moment.
Moving the post North/South alters the timbre of the instrument, East/West alters the balance across the strings. Keep those two movements separate - ie get the post in the right place N/S before making E/W adjustments, never move it diagonally.
If the post is too far North the fiddle will be loud and harsh, with little warmth, move South and it will get quieter and warmer. Go too far South and it will start to sound 'boxy'.
So if the fiddle sounds boxy, you move North in small increments. When it starts to sound harsh you know you've gone too far, so going back one step will put you on the sweet spot. At no point do you need to compare two sounds.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by skreech
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
As a beginner of 7 years, I find that my bowing technique is not consistent enough to give accurate results from changing strings. I can tell the difference between old and new strings, but as much by feel under the bow as by sound. Perhaps if I were to try stringing my fiddle with some forbiddingly expensive set, I would be instantly converted, but I don't feel that my level of playing warrants it. When I first started playing, I used Thomastik Dominants, as everyone seemed to regard them as the industry standard (I was horrified by the price at first, having previously played mandolin for 10 years, and spent a fraction of the amount on *8* strings). But, for the last year or so, I have used nothing but D'Addario Preludes - mainly because they are about half the price - and they sound no worse to me; I think they *feel* somewhat better.
As for soundpost adjustments, I find the effects more discernible - just as well, as I do a bit of set-up work on fiddles, for other people as well as myself. But, even then, I find that the difference between one fiddle and another is often far greater than any change in tone effected by a soundpost adjustment.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Smoke and mirrors
A really good violin maker/repairer/dealer I know often has people bringing their violins in to him complaining that they think the sound post needs adjusting. He just hangs them on the wall and doesn't touch them. A few days later the owner comes back in, has a quick play on their fiddle and pronounces the bloke a genius. He always says "no charge" of course.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by ...
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
@CMO "... forbiddingly expensive set ..."
I tried one of those about 18 months ago on my orchestral violin on the well-meant advice of the orchestra's leader, and it was not a good experience, hard under the fingers (even with my low action) and a harsh strident tone. Those strings were given their chance, I played them daily for three or four weeks, and then moved them to the session fiddle. They didn't play any better there either, so I gave them away.
After that FES disaster I moved over to plain gut on both fiddles. I chose Savarez after a while with Pirastro Chorda, and the Savarez are easily the best to play of all the strings I've tried over the years in their responsiveness, projection, and of course tone, as well as being significantly less expensive than their wound counterparts. They don't lose their tone like synthetics do, so effectively have a longer playing life.
An interesting side effect of gut on my old violin is that the wolf resonances clustered half-way up the G immediately disappeared. I put this down to the combination of gut's lower tension and an old ebony tailpiece I put back on - fine tuners don't work with gut. I also took the opportunity to ensure that the string after-length was precisely as it should be (one-sixth of the nut-bridge length).
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Smoke and mirrors
People need to be taking more ownership of their sound and stop blaming their tools as much
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by ...
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
"People need to be taking more ownership of their sound and stop blaming their tools as much"
A sick fiddle is a sick fiddle and there's no point ignoring the need for routine maintenance. But, yes - if only speaking for myself - I have a very long way to go to get the best possible sound out of my fiddle in its current set-up. Once I've achieved that (i.e. never) I might think about upgrading.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
"What, in your experience, do you find helpful?"
I had been feeling dissatisfied with my fiddle for some time, I kept trying different strings, different bows, more rosin, less rosin.
I was having an email conversation with Will Harmon, about other aspects of music, and I sent him a recording of me playing a tune. Will said "it sounds like you need a better fiddle, the A and D strings sound weak". I was more than a little horrified: I bought the fiddle from someone who used it professionally, he is not only a fiddler, he's also a record producer and a violin dealer, and I had been really satisfied with the fiddle, I thought I would never need another. The fiddle was much better than I am. But I realised Will was right, it didn't sound good and I was having to work very hard when playing it.
So I took it to a luthier. Did the soundpost need adjustment? He gently inserted a knife between the ribs and the back, and the back fell off. Seems it had been coming unglued. He glued it up again, and now it sounds great. When I first played it in the shop after the repair, the difference was stunning.
So in my experience what I found helpful was Will.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by Bernie 29
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Bernie thanks for the kind words, but I was just the bloke you happened to contact. I suspect most experienced fiddlers would've heard the same thing I diid--an imbalance across the strings.
And, contrary to Llig's shot from the hip, that's a great example of the instrument itself needing some attention, not the player, to get the best sound.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
This is a good read: http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=324259
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by RichardB
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
llig,
It was pointed out to me a long time ago that there is a very good reason why 'A good workman never blames his tools'. The reason is quite simply that a good workman doesn't own bad tools. You won't find a luthier buying chisels in the pound shop.
And whilst I fully agree that if you don't like the sound you are making the answer almost always lies in practicing more rather than upgrading your instrument, at the same time it makes sense to ensure you are getting the best performance possible out of whatever grade of instrument you happen to own. And that invariably involves a bit of experimentation with things like strings and post position, which are easily and cheaply changed.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by skreech
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
I'm not sure about that Will. Maybe if you asked them "do you think there is something wrong with this fiddle?" they would come up with that response, but I wasn't asking you about the fiddle at all.
What also interests me about it is that I had been struggling with the fiddle for some time, but hadn't got beyond the vague idea that something was wrong somewhere.
Maybe, if you really aren't feeling happy about your instrument, the thing to do is to ask a good player to give it a try? I don't know.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by Bernie 29
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
The short answer is that you need to figure out the various dimensions that things change (bright/dark, present/spread-out, treble/bass), then decide what direction you want things to change. If you try to go just by "sounds better/worse" without trying to describe it in more specific terms, you'll run yourself in circles. In practicality, many of the dimensions are interconnected: more volume and presence tends to mean a harsher sound, and a sweeter/deeper tone diminishes presence and volume.
For the record, I recommend against soundpost moving, except by certified professionals once every few years. The fiddle takes a while to settle in to a new soundpost, so moving it around can actually be counterproductive.
As for strings, I went through a very expensive string-testing cycle a few years back and learned that it doesn't matter as much as you think. While strings do have different characteristics, it's too easy to pick a new set of strings because it "fixes" some aspect of your sound (perhaps you want crisper articulation), but then you realize that your tone is harsh (because you are no longer focused on articulation--your next problem is your tone), so you get a set of strings that have a better tone... But now your articulation is fuzzy (especially aften the strings have worn-in) because you've been letting your strings do the work of articulating for you... so you try another set of strings...
In short, you have a problem with your sound, so you decide to get a different set of strings... Now you have two problems with your sound: 1) how to fix the original problem, 2) how to learn to play on the new strings.
But in general I think llig is right about taking ownership of their own sound. If your tone is harsh, try to figure out how to sweeten it with your right hand. If your articulation is fuzzy, you need to work at improving it with your hands. Shifting strings more often than every few months is something of a counterproductive (and expensive!) hobby.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by Georgi
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
My solution to this is to have a good relationship with a good violin shop with an in-house luthier. Not possible in every location, of course, but shops like these can be such a great way to learn about your fiddle and how to keep it sounding good. They give string recommendations based on the character of the fiddle, will move your sound post around to your liking, adjust your bridge just so, check any suspicious buzzes, etc. They will help you with the adjustments you need to achieve the quality of sound you want. Much easier (and cheaper) than randomly experimenting with various brands of strings and making your own (potentially harmful) soundpost adjustments.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by kennedy
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Very constructive comments from everyone. I agree with Llig - I'm not looking for some magic bullet that will 'fix' anything. I was just looking for advice on telling the difference before & after.
# Posted on September 30th 2011 by B Rad
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
In light of Georgi's good comments, I'll clarify my earlier posts.
I only move my sound post around when my fiddle goes wonky from seasonal (dramatic here in Montana) changes in humidity. So about twice a year I twiddle with the sound post for a day or two until I'm happy with the sound.
And I'll point out that I've been a professional luthier and have training in fiddle set up and repair. So this sort of thing isn't just a DIY experiment in my case. (That said, I believe that with some mentoring and practice, anyone can learn to adjust their own sound post and make some other important and rather personal set up tweaks. Learning to do this is better than the all-too-common option of having your set up done by an experienced repair person who doesn't play fiddle.)
Also, because I work out of music shop, I get to try various strings for free or very cheap. Despite that, I tend to play the same brand and make of strings for years at a time. I've been using my current choice for more than 2 years now and see no need to change.
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Oh, and as Martin Hayes once said, the main difference among fiddles is that with some, it takes longer to figure out how to get the sound your want out of them.
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
will, what kind of strings are you using these days? just curious. thanks.
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by full measure
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
"just curious"?
yeah right.
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by ...
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
I use Thomastik Vision Soloist for the G, D, and A, and a Thomastik Superflexible No. 8 for the E.
That's what works well for me, on my fiddle, playing mostly in my small local session. If my regular session was bigger (louder) and I wanted more volume, I'd probably use Helicore mediums (but still the Superflexible No. 8 E).
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
thanks will, and i feel honored to be razzed by llig. i feel as if i belong...if i were into emoticons i might put a smiley here.
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by full measure
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
There's plenty of truth in Llig's take ownership plan, and I think probably little harm (except maybe to your pocketbook) in trying out all different ranges of strings. I have had some chats with my luthier about shrillness... etc, and hes very honest, and has so far refused to adjust soundposts, or replace bridges, and instead we talked about humidity, bow choice, and no his ego isn't playing a roll he didn't initally set up either of these instruments. There's about a thousand ways to skin this cat, and taking ownership is a start. I sat for about an hour last night, messing around with very small adjustments to finger placement listening for waffling and vibrations in my tone, play a micron flat, then rolling my finger until it's just right, deconstructing the tunes phrases and so on. I wish I could just have him adjust the sound post so I sound better, but I noticed when I put serious work into my own tone development it has paid off.
Humidity changes are really a bear in my opinion. I have a fiddle that just hates dry weather, it sounds aweful when it's in a warm dry room in winter, and another one that seems to tolerate it quite well. Too bad they don't rate them on the shelf in the shop for their humidity tolerance.
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by SandyBottoms
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
Most fiddles don't like low humidity, tonally and structurally. Here in Montana, spring weather may peg the humidity at 40% for a few months, but the rest of the year it's not uncommon to get down around 11% or 12% humidity, sometimes even into the single digits. Lips and fingertips parch and crack, and so can a fiddle. Adjusting the sound post helps relieve stress on the top (and back). Some people go so far as to have a slightly longer second sound post for the dry times.
Sound post and bridge placement can have a huge effect on tone and balance across the strings. It's one thing to tell someone to "take ownership and practice more" when they've been playing only for 5 or 10 years. But when a fiddler has 25 or 30 years of attentive, mechanically solid and ever-improving woodshedding under their belt, there's no reason not to look at fiddle set up to make sure that player is getting the full potential out of the instrument. Playing a poorly set up fiddle is like running a race in shoes with broken laces and pebbles and burrs in the toe box. I can imagine better ways to spend my time.
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
D'oh! I meant "slightly shorter" sound post for dry times....
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
i am looking forward to the day when my not-very-high-end fiddle is holding me back more than my own lack of skill. so far, it's usually the owner-operator behind the shortcomings.
but if i had an expendable fiddle, i'd love to mess around with sound posts and and bridges stuff, just to teach myself to hear and feel all the subtleties mentioned above.
i'm kind of afraid my hearing acuity will not last til that day...
# Posted on October 1st 2011 by full measure
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
full measure, an alternative to messing with your own sound post and bridge, etc., is to just play lots of different fiddles. Whenever you get a chance to visit a violin shop, play a dozen or so, just to listen for all the differences. Of course, those differences won't be down to just sound posts and bridge placement, but you'll get an earful of different timbres, evenness (or not) across the strings, etc., and the more you do that, the better you'll get at understanding what to listen for. Keep the "labels" in mind--having names for what to listen for helps in discerning among all the acoustic qualities, and in hearing how one fiddle sounds different from another (not unlike being able to recognize different people by their voices).
Even if you get to visit a violin shop once in a blue moon, make it a priority to play through a bunch of their instruments, just to educate your ear.
# Posted on October 2nd 2011 by Will Harmon
Re: Comparing strings (or soundpost adjustments) on your fiddle
excellent idea, will. i will try to get over my embarrassment in the face of the violin-erati.
the idea of putting words to the qualities is especially useful, as it will give me pegs to hang my evaluations on. words can help me to remember sounds, i can't always remember a tune when i hear its name, but if it's a song, the words bring the tune to me.
round here, most friends will let you try their fiddles, too, i will do it.
# Posted on October 2nd 2011 by full measure